New stadium for Edinburgh rugby and/or Hearts? (merged)

[Fat Penlon]

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There is absolutely no chance whatsoever that the Council will be building them a new stadium. This is a body needing to find well in excess of £100 million of savings, never mind any additional expenditure, and it is accountable to Audit Scotland for what it does in an age of unparallelled transparency with Freedom of Information.

All of the traditional Edinburgh establishment 'Get Out of Jail Free' cards the Yams could have played in years past are now worthless. The Council is skint, Bank of Scotland is a wreck and not Edinburgh run or owned and wealthy Edinburgh businessmen are a) few and far between and b) cannot cope with the scale of cost implicit here.

Hearts are now those guys you see sitting in scruffy huddles next to Edinburgh ATMs with hand written cards saying 'homeless'. They just don't realise it yet.

Yet they are due the council at least 58k in unpaid overdue business rates. You or I wouldnt be allowed to be so far behind but they are? They also signed Wilson and Ngoo thus choosing to spend money on additional player wages rather than pay any of this debt to the council. In my book they are clearly being helped by the council!!!!!!!!

[One Day Soon]

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I don't know how these things work but would it be feasible for them to borrow the money but hearts to pay it back in the form of rent, would mean a regular income without it costing the taxpayer anything?

Would be a pish deal for hearts in the long run just trying to think of ways hearts could wriggle out of this.

The Council has a limited amount of borrowing capacity, regardless of who is paying a rent.

Local authority borrowing all counts against PSBR - which affects the credit worthiness of UK plc (unless it is PFI/PPP which transfers risk off the public sector books but which the present SNP administration is against - it is how Labour built a vast slice of their hospitals and schools). So every pound that the Council borrows to finance the capital cost of a new stadium for the Homeless, under your scenario, is a pound it cannot borrow to put into funding a whole queue of other public sector projects - eg new schools, roads, bridges, more tram lines, major city centre projects etc.

I wouldn't like to be the Edinburgh politicians taking THAT proposal to the Edinburgh public.

[One Day Soon]

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Yet they are due the council at least 58k in unpaid overdue business rates. You or I wouldnt be allowed to be so far behind but they are? They also signed Wilson and Ngoo thus choosing to spend money on additional player wages rather than pay any of this debt to the council. In my book they are clearly being helped by the council!!!!!!!!

Big difference between being in Council Tax arrears and having a new stadium built for you. To try and be objective for a moment - the Edinburgh Council that made itself the body that put either Hearts or Hibs out of business for that amount of Council Tax arrears would face an awful lot of negative PR.

They will show tolerance, but only up to a point.

[Fat Penlon]

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Big difference between being in Council Tax arrears and having a new stadium built for you. To try and be objective for a moment - the Edinburgh Council that made itself the body that put either Hearts or Hibs out of business for that amount of Council Tax arrears would face an awful lot of negative PR.

They will show tolerance, but only up to a point.

There lies the problem. This line will be the most used by management at hearts just now. Scare people into what might happen if they are seen to be asking for the money they are due which could be the straw that breaks the camels back. This is why they are getting away with it for so long imo.

[One Day Soon]

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There lies the problem. This line will be the most used by management at hearts just now. Scare people into what might happen if they are seen to be asking for the money they are due which could be the straw that breaks the camels back. This is why they are getting away with it for so long imo.

Except that ONLY works with the Council and only for chicken feed. And in the context of the sums the Council deals with (a revenue budget in excess of £1 billion) £58,000 is chicken feed.

Believe me, there is no escape from the financial noose for the Yams via the Council.

[Fat Penlon]

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Except that ONLY works with the Council and only for chicken feed. And in the context of the sums the Council deals with (a revenue budget in excess of £1 billion) £58,000 is chicken feed.

Believe me, there is no escape from the financial noose for the Yams via the Council.

Any council has a statutory duty to collect all taxes due no matter how small they seem when compared to the overall budget. If i didnt pay my £200 next month they would soon be in touch to threaten me and collect it. £200 is no different to £58,000. I'm not suggesting the council will let them away with it all together but there must be a nudge and a wink involved for them to be allowed to be so much in arrears.

[Hibeesforever]

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Any council has a statutory duty to collect all taxes due no matter how small they seem when compared to the overall budget. If i didnt pay my £200 next month they would soon be in touch to threaten me and collect it. £200 is no different to £58,000. I'm not suggesting the council will let them away with it all together but there must be a nudge and a wink involved for them to be allowed to be so much in arrears.

There are indeed. Statutes are in place that obligate the civil servants to enforce and put in place the appropriate legal collection orders if bills remain overdue for set periods of time.

I am sure your peers are monitoring, via Freedom of Information requests, the actions of*those council employees charged with making sure the local authority does not miss out on due revenue.

It would be tragic and unfortunate if it was an Edinburgh City Council winding up order that put Hearts out of business but as was shown when the team formally known as Rangers went bust, even the Police declined to guarantee to turn up unless their over due cash was settled.

The East of Scotland scenario is no different.

[clerriehibs]

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There are indeed. Statutes are in place that obligate the civil servants to enforce and put in place the appropriate legal collection orders if bills remain overdue for set periods of time.

I am sure your peers are monitoring, via Freedom of Information requests, the actions of*those council employees charged with making sure the local authority does not miss out on due revenue.

It would be tragic and unfortunate if it was an Edinburgh City Council winding up order that put Hearts out of business but as was shown when the team formally known as Rangers went bust, even the Police declined to guarantee to turn up unless their over due cash was settled.

The East of Scotland scenario is no different.

tragic? unfortunate? I was thinking more "it would be just".

[jgl07]

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This was definitely for Edinburgh Rugby at the time.

I would also call into question Murrays ability to pull this deal off (financially) in any event. Remember his companies were skint at the time the Huns were going under.

No matter how much the council love in with hearts is true - they cant push this through / build a stadium for them in anything less than a year or so. Their chickens are coming home to roost a lot sooner.

ho ho

Murray offered the stadium as a sweetener to persude the Council to give planning permission for housing on green belt land over the A8 from the airport. It was never going to happen. There is no way that a housing scheme out there would be viable in the current economic climate anyway. Even that assumes that Murray has the money or the credit worthiness to even think about it.

I think that the chickens have already re-established themselves in the roost.

[TrinityHibs]

I might regret this but the Gorgie "Opportunity Site" has limited value. Tesco are not buying sites and will not be buying sites for the forseeable future. Asda will not be interested due to the store at Chesser. (They just dont do canibilisation), Sainsburys have a Gorgie store which leaves Morrisons. They have/had a requirement for the west of Edinburgh and have looked at the BT building on Gorgie Road. But they need a site of around 6 acres with FRONTAGE... ie you can see the front of the shop. Not the PBS. They did the hidden one in Granton which is their worst trading shop in Scotland. They are also concentrating on the SE of England. Aldi would pay about £1M for a bit of the site but they might already be next to Mcdonalds (cannot remember) and Lidl are on Dalry Road. Its not a great place for another Waitrose which leaves the Co-op who mght just take an acre with frontage (Thats worth about £0.5M).

South Murayfield is not prime resi land and the housebulders are not buying dog sites to land bank unless they are owned by companies controlled by the banks who need to transfer ownership from one part of the bank to another. Thats what Cala and Miller are doing just now. Buying sites from HBOS basket cases funded by Lloyds/HBOS. Its got something to do with where the money comes from in HBOS and what account it ends up in.

David Murrays planning application is a paper exercise. He is burst and inebted to..................Lloyds/HBOS. They have some toxic MIM/PPG assets that they can improve value on by changing the land use. So Davie Boy's old company has a field which on paper is worth £5000 an acre. PPG get a consent on behalf of their paymasters Lloyds/HBOS and remarkably the PPG assets increase in value ON PAPER because housing land is worth more than a field s the bank is not so badly off. The stadium is plannng gain to get the resi consent. BUT and its a big BUT it doesnt matter if its Green Belt, underhand or just madness as it will not happen in a time frame that works for the walking dead.

I for one am very happy that there is not a property solution that will dig Maroonco out of the mire they are in.

The big however is that the Council may build a community stadium and at some time in the future a football club may rent it. It might be Spartans or some lesser glorified pub team but I can live with that right now.

[Billy Whizz]

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I might regret this but the Gorgie "Opportunity Site" has limited value. Tesco are not buying sites and will not be buying sites for the forseeable future. Asda will not be interested due to the store at Chesser. (They just dont do canibilisation), Sainsburys have a Gorgie store which leaves Morrisons. They have/had a requirement for the west of Edinburgh and have looked at the BT building on Gorgie Road. But they need a site of around 6 acres with FRONTAGE... ie you can see the front of the shop. Not the PBS. They did the hidden one in Granton which is their worst trading shop in Scotland. They are also concentrating on the SE of England. Aldi would pay about £1M for a bit of the site but they might already be next to Mcdonalds (cannot remember) and Lidl are on Dalry Road. Its not a great place for another Waitrose which leaves the Co-op who mght just take an acre with frontage (Thats worth about £0.5M).

South Murayfield is not prime resi land and the housebulders are not buying dog sites to land bank unless they are owned by companies controlled by the banks who need to transfer ownership from one part of the bank to another. Thats what Cala and Miller are doing just now. Buying sites from HBOS basket cases funded by Lloyds/HBOS. Its got something to do with where the money comes from in HBOS and what account it ends up in.

David Murrays planning application is a paper exercise. He is burst and inebted to..................Lloyds/HBOS. They have some toxic MIM/PPG assets that they can improve value on by changing the land use. So Davie Boy's old company has a field which on paper is worth £5000 an acre. PPG get a consent on behalf of their paymasters Lloyds/HBOS and remarkably the PPG assets increase in value ON PAPER because housing land is worth more than a field s the bank is not so badly off. The stadium is plannng gain to get the resi consent. BUT and its a big BUT it doesnt matter if its Green Belt, underhand or just madness as it will not happen in a time frame that works for the walking dead.

I for one am very happy that there is not a property solution that will dig Maroonco out of the mire they are in.

The big however is that the Council may build a community stadium and at some time in the future a football club may rent it. It might be Spartans or some lesser glorified pub team but I can live with that right now.

Woah

[Peevemor]

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I might regret this but ...

Excellent, informative stuff.

Thanks for that.

[s.a.m]

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I might regret this but the Gorgie "Opportunity Site" has limited value. Tesco are not buying sites and will not be buying sites for the forseeable future. Asda will not be interested due to the store at Chesser. (They just dont do canibilisation), Sainsburys have a Gorgie store which leaves Morrisons. They have/had a requirement for the west of Edinburgh and have looked at the BT building on Gorgie Road. But they need a site of around 6 acres with FRONTAGE... ie you can see the front of the shop. Not the PBS. They did the hidden one in Granton which is their worst trading shop in Scotland. They are also concentrating on the SE of England. Aldi would pay about £1M for a bit of the site but they might already be next to Mcdonalds (cannot remember) and Lidl are on Dalry Road. Its not a great place for another Waitrose which leaves the Co-op who mght just take an acre with frontage (Thats worth about £0.5M).

South Murrayfield is not prime resi land and the housebulders are not buying dog sites to land bank unless they are owned by companies controlled by the banks who need to transfer ownership from one part of the bank to another. Thats what Cala and Miller are doing just now. Buying sites from HBOS basket cases funded by Lloyds/HBOS. Its got something to do with where the money comes from in HBOS and what account it ends up in.

David Murrays planning application is a paper exercise. He is burst and inebted to..................Lloyds/HBOS. They have some toxic MIM/PPG assets that they can improve value on by changing the land use. So Davie Boy's old company has a field which on paper is worth £5000 an acre. PPG get a consent on behalf of their paymasters Lloyds/HBOS and remarkably the PPG assets increase in value ON PAPER because housing land is worth more than a field s the bank is not so badly off. The stadium is plannng gain to get the resi consent. BUT and its a big BUT it doesnt matter if its Green Belt, underhand or just madness as it will not happen in a time frame that works for the walking dead.

I for one am very happy that there is not a property solution that will dig Maroonco out of the mire they are in.

The big however is that the Council may build a community stadium and at some time in the future a football club may rent it. It might be Spartans or some lesser glorified pub team but I can live with that right now.

Thanks.

[Gingertosser]

My take :

The council will stump up approx £4m to take over Tynecastle.
They will then rent it to Hearts & Edinburgh Rugby.
They will also redevelop the main stand at a cost of £6m (it will be basic)

They can then tell us they have saved money by not building a new £20m stadium, and the land at Sighthill is now available for low rent housing which will be paid for using the £10m saved.

The only uncertainty would be who rents Tynecastle from the council....Vlad ??

[Hibbyradge]

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My take :

The council will stump up approx £4m to take over Tynecastle.
They will then rent it to Hearts & Edinburgh Rugby.
They will also redevelop the main stand at a cost of £6m (it will be basic)

They can then tell us they have saved money by not building a new £20m stadium, and the land at Sighthill is now available for low rent housing which will be paid for using the £10m saved.

The only uncertainty would be who rents Tynecastle from the council....Vlad ??

Another good reason not to do drugs...

[TrickyNicky]

Originally Posted by Gingertosser
My take :

The council will stump up approx £4m to take over Tynecastle.
They will then rent it to Hearts & Edinburgh Rugby.
They will also redevelop the main stand at a cost of £6m (it will be basic)

They can then tell us they have saved money by not building a new £20m stadium, and the land at Sighthill is now available for low rent housing which will be paid for using the £10m saved.

The only uncertainty would be who rents Tynecastle from the council....Vlad ??

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Another good reason not to do drugs...

Or just, don't do them all at once!

[Ozyhibby]

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My take :

The council will stump up approx £4m to take over Tynecastle.
They will then rent it to Hearts & Edinburgh Rugby.
They will also redevelop the main stand at a cost of £6m (it will be basic)

They can then tell us they have saved money by not building a new £20m stadium, and the land at Sighthill is now available for low rent housing which will be paid for using the £10m saved.

The only uncertainty would be who rents Tynecastle from the council....Vlad ??

Not even on Kickback have I seen such an optimistic assessment of the likely outcome for Hearts.

[Bighoose]

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My take :

The council will stump up approx £4m to take over Tynecastle.
They will then rent it to Hearts & Edinburgh Rugby.
They will also redevelop the main stand at a cost of £6m (it will be basic)

They can then tell us they have saved money by not building a new £20m stadium, and the land at Sighthill is now available for low rent housing which will be paid for using the £10m saved.

The only uncertainty would be who rents Tynecastle from the council....Vlad ??

With a one lane running track?

[Gingertosser]

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optimistic.

???

or maybe I'm just more of a realist.....after the shennanigans with Sevco over the summer, the reality is that a lot of groups/organisations/people will do whatever they want to stop a largish club from dying, no matter the consequences....

optimistic is hoping they dissappear overnight, unfortunately it won't happen

[PatHead]

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???

or maybe I'm just more of a realist.....after the shennanigans with Sevco over the summer, the reality is that a lot of groups/organisations/people will do whatever they want to stop a largish club from dying, no matter the consequences....

optimistic is hoping they dissappear overnight, unfortunately it won't happen

The fact is no matter what spin the Scottish press or Green put on it, Rangers did die. A new company was formed which is the reason they had to apply to join the Scottish League. If they hadn't died they would have stayed in SPL. The new club is called The Rangers.

[Keith_M]

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My take :

The council will stump up approx £4m to take over Tynecastle.
They will then rent it to Hearts & Edinburgh Rugby.
They will also redevelop the main stand at a cost of £6m (it will be basic)

They can then tell us they have saved money by not building a new £20m stadium, and the land at Sighthill is now available for low rent housing which will be paid for using the £10m saved.

The only uncertainty would be who rents Tynecastle from the council....Vlad ??

Did you get that straight from one of the deluded on Kickback?

[poolman]

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My take :

The council will stump up approx £4m to take over Tynecastle.
They will then rent it to Hearts & Edinburgh Rugby.
They will also redevelop the main stand at a cost of £6m (it will be basic)

They can then tell us they have saved money by not building a new £20m stadium, and the land at Sighthill is now available for low rent housing which will be paid for using the £10m saved.

The only uncertainty would be who rents Tynecastle from the council....Vlad ??

I think you should leave the Ginger out of your username

[Saorsa]

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My take :

The council will stump up approx £4m to take over Tynecastle.
They will then rent it to Hearts & Edinburgh Rugby.
They will also redevelop the main stand at a cost of £6m (it will be basic)

They can then tell us they have saved money by not building a new £20m stadium, and the land at Sighthill is now available for low rent housing which will be paid for using the £10m saved.

The only uncertainty would be who rents Tynecastle from the council....Vlad ??

The roasters on keech boak couldnae even dream that fantasy up

[FranckSuzy]

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Another good reason not to do drugs...

Superb! :-D

[magpie1892]

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My take :

The council will stump up approx £4m to take over Tynecastle.
They will then rent it to Hearts & Edinburgh Rugby.
They will also redevelop the main stand at a cost of £6m (it will be basic)

They can then tell us they have saved money by not building a new £20m stadium, and the land at Sighthill is now available for low rent housing which will be paid for using the £10m saved.

The only uncertainty would be who rents Tynecastle from the council....Vlad ??

I'll give your proposal credit for originality, if nothing else.

[clerriehibs]

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Another good reason not to do drugs...

Don't say he didn't warn you ...

[Twiglet]

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My take :

The council will stump up approx £4m to take over Tynecastle.
They will then rent it to Hearts & Edinburgh Rugby.
They will also redevelop the main stand at a cost of £6m (it will be basic)

They can then tell us they have saved money by not building a new £20m stadium, and the land at Sighthill is now available for low rent housing which will be paid for using the £10m saved.

The only uncertainty would be who rents Tynecastle from the council....Vlad ??

A groundshare of a redeveloped tynecastle wouldn't work. Pitch is too small. For RU the pitch needs to be as close to 100m between try lines and have run off behind which is still part of the playing field.
Tynecastle is about 107yds and no run off.

[Peevemor]

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A groundshare of a redeveloped tynecastle wouldn't work. Pitch is too small. For RU the pitch needs to be as close to 100m between try lines and have run off behind which is still part of the playing field.
Tynecastle is about 107yds and no run off.

Which is about 98m.

[PatHead]

Serious question-

Is there anyone who would want Hibs to rent Easter Road to Hearts for a season whilst they found permanent digs?

The benefit to us would be a rent on a regular basis (assuming whoever took over HoM was a decent egg) which could reduce our losses and possibly allow us to buy another player. Lets just say Leigh for arguments sake. The humble pie which would be digested by our tenants would be well worth a good gloat. I assume we could take a good cut of any hospitality as well. The lease of advertising, catering etc would rise if Easter Road was used every week.

The downside would be 2 stands occupied by them every second week and the pitch would take a battering.

Are we big enough to rise above it bearing in mind they didn't trash the stadium at their recent semi?

[Saorsa]

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Serious question-

Is there anyone who would want Hibs to rent Easter Road to Hearts for a season whilst they found permanent digs?

The benefit to us would be a rent on a regular basis (assuming whoever took over HoM was a decent egg) which could reduce our losses and possibly allow us to buy another player. Lets just say Leigh for arguments sake. The humble pie which would be digested by our tenants would be well worth a good gloat. I assume we could take a good cut of any hospitality as well. The lease of advertising, catering etc would rise if Easter Road was used every week.

The downside would be 2 stands occupied by them every second week and the pitch would take a battering.

Are we big enough to rise above it bearing in mind they didn't trash the stadium at their recent semi?

They can GTF