Share Transfers Agreed/Cooling off period

[CropleyWasGod]

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http://www.heartsfc.co.uk/articles/2...241384_2966692

Good to see Hertz ramping up the emotional blackmail by emplying wee Blobbo.

Paying him in bevvy no doubt.

Is it just me, or is there supreme irony in the advert on that page.... "I sit at home and earn £437 every day".

Would that be UKIO Bankas, then?

[The_Sauz]

Just heard that Gary Mckay is going to auction off his medal collection to help raise funds for his beloved Hearts!








































































Ok who wants to tell him!!

[grammyb111]

Apologies of the below has been covered already!

While I'm not an expert on insolvency, I've got a couple of scenarios here:

Share issue raises (generous estimate) £1m. Hearts lose the tax case and face a final bill of say £3m. What is to stop UBIG crystalising the charge over Tynecastle, cash in bank (to the tune of the £1m raised by the rights issue less costs) plus any other assets (if there are any) and letting HMRC join the other unsecured creditors? Obviously in this case any unsecured creditors wouldn't even get a pence in the pound deal, they would get absolutely nothing. If Hearts started to pay the HMRC bill, any money paid is money that would therefore not be covered by the charge and would not go to UBIG. At that point UBIG would save £3m by not having the HMRC bill to pay, could sell Tynecastle for say £10m, close the doors on the club and cut their losses there?

The only other scenario I could see (if Hearts lose the tax case) is that all players are put up for sale, money raised is used to pay back the HMRC bill and Hearts play youths on <£500 a week. All savings are then used on the payment plan to HMRC and to UBIG. The problem (from Hearts' point of view) of this is that with the debt so high, UBIG don't have any real prospect of getting the £22m (plus interest accuring at £1m+ per year) back. Presumably further lending (which has been said wouldn't come from UBIG) would be required to pay off HMRC, so with all of that money going out the club, it further reduces the prospect of UBIG getting their money back, making (in my eyes at least) the above scenario the only option. Even if UBIG did not resort to the above scenario, the team would most likely be extremely weakened, probably relegated and would probably see reduced attendances (depending on fan loyalty of course).

With the second of these scenarios being the better of the two, I'd say it makes for a pretty grim reading for those down Gorgie way...

Any expert (and non-expert!) opinions would be most welcome on the above!

[green glory]

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Is it just me, or is there supreme irony in the advert on that page.... "I sit at home and earn £437 every day".

Would that be UKIO Bankas, then?

Interestingly if only 150 Yams did that for a year all the debt to Vlad would be paid off.

[CropleyWasGod]

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Apologies of the below has been covered already!

While I'm not an expert on insolvency, I've got a couple of scenarios here:

Share issue raises (generous estimate) £1m. Hearts lose the tax case and face a final bill of say £3m. What is to stop UBIG crystalising the charge over Tynecastle, cash in bank (to the tune of the £1m raised by the rights issue less costs) plus any other assets (if there are any) and letting HMRC join the other unsecured creditors? Obviously in this case any unsecured creditors wouldn't even get a pence in the pound deal, they would get absolutely nothing. If Hearts started to pay the HMRC bill, any money paid is money that would therefore not be covered by the charge and would not go to UBIG. At that point UBIG would save £3m by not having the HMRC bill to pay, could sell Tynecastle for say £10m, close the doors on the club and cut their losses there?

The only other scenario I could see (if Hearts lose the tax case) is that all players are put up for sale, money raised is used to pay back the HMRC bill and Hearts play youths on <£500 a week. All savings are then used on the payment plan to HMRC and to UBIG. The problem (from Hearts' point of view) of this is that with the debt so high, UBIG don't have any real prospect of getting the £22m (plus interest accuring at £1m+ per year) back. Presumably further lending (which has been said wouldn't come from UBIG) would be required to pay off HMRC, so with all of that money going out the club, it further reduces the prospect of UBIG getting their money back, making (in my eyes at least) the above scenario the only option. Even if UBIG did not resort to the above scenario, the team would most likely be extremely weakened, probably relegated and would probably see reduced attendances (depending on fan loyalty of course).

With the second of these scenarios being the better of the two, I'd say it makes for a pretty grim reading for those down Gorgie way...

Any expert (and non-expert!) opinions would be most welcome on the above!

I think Hearts are playing what an old boss of mine used to call French Cricket.

Whilst, on one hand, UBIG will get more of their cash back if they DON'T pay HMRC... they seem to be wanting to keep HMRC sweet, thereby ensuring short-term survival. They know that, if they don't pay them, then winding-up orders will follow.

So why are they keeping things going, and potentially reducing the amount recoverable for themselves? I am not sure about that... perhaps they are waiting on property values going up again (fat chance, says I), or discovering another Craig Gordon situation, or a white knight with more money than sense riding up?

That's a dangerous game, IMO. Not only are they jeopardising the recoverability of their cash, they (the directors of HMFC here) are also laying themselves open to prosecution for trading whilst insolvent.

I know I haven't answered your question, by the way. I'm paid to body swerve the difficult ones.

[grammyb111]

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I think Hearts are playing what an old boss of mine used to call French Cricket.

Whilst, on one hand, UBIG will get more of their cash back if they DON'T pay HMRC... they seem to be wanting to keep HMRC sweet, thereby ensuring short-term survival. They know that, if they don't pay them, then winding-up orders will follow.

So why are they keeping things going, and potentially reducing the amount recoverable for themselves? I am not sure about that... perhaps they are waiting on property values going up again (fat chance, says I), or discovering another Craig Gordon situation, or a white knight with more money than sense riding up?

That's a dangerous game, IMO. Not only are they jeopardising the recoverability of their cash, they (the directors of HMFC here) are also laying themselves open to prosecution for trading whilst insolvent.

I know I haven't answered your question, by the way. I'm paid to body swerve the difficult ones.

And you were one of the great white hopes I had of answering them!

The thing is, in the second scenario a Craig Gordon situation (to anything like that scale) would be impossible. Hearts wouldn't be in the position to turn down any real offers for their players, let alone the player himself putting up with a team offering more than £500 a week having their bid rejected. Other teams would know exactly the situation Hearts were in and could exploit that to their extreme advantage.

[greenginger]

That's a dangerous game, IMO. Not only are they jeopardising the recoverability of their cash, they (the directors of HMFC here) are also laying themselves open to prosecution for trading whilst insolvent.


What directors ? they have still not submitted their annual return yet. All the directors may have resigned and left Uncle Fester in charge.

[green glory]

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That's a dangerous game, IMO. Not only are they jeopardising the recoverability of their cash, they (the directors of HMFC here) are also laying themselves open to prosecution for trading whilst insolvent.

What directors ? they have still not submitted their annual return yet. All the directors may have resigned and left Uncle Fester in charge.

I can just imagine him with his abacus trying to sort out the mess.

[hibs0666]

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http://www.heartsfc.co.uk/articles/2...241384_2966692

Good to see Hertz ramping up the emotional blackmail by emplying wee Blobbo.

Paying him in bevvy no doubt.

When all these poor sods inevitably lose their money I very much hope that the wee fat wrist slasher will be able to sleep at night after his part in promoting it.

[Twa Cairpets]

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http://www.heartsfc.co.uk/articles/2...241384_2966692

Good to see Hertz ramping up the emotional blackmail by emplying wee Blobbo.

Paying him in bevvy no doubt.

The link also says the share brochure is being distributed to "up to 50,000 supporters".
Really?
50,000?


I suppose it's more realistic than 400,000, but only just.

[green glory]

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The link also says the share brochure is being distributed to "up to 50,000 supporters".
Really?
50,000?


I suppose it's more realistic than 400,000, but only just.

I think the logic behind it is that they don't want to cripple the entire postal service hence only sending to 50,000 of the 400,000. Which is what would happen. They're actually doing us all a favour.

I for one am very grateful.

[StevieC]

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Share issue raises (generous estimate) £1m

Not ignoring the rest of your post, just picking up on the above.

I was speaking to someone that was heavily involved in the "Save Our Hearts" campaign when they needed to dig deep to save Tynecastle. He stated that they were given £800k in pledges (not even hard cash) and that a lot of that was from local businesses that were worried about loss of trade if Tynecastle was sold off. He reckons that they'd be lucky to get £300k in a proper share issue, and actually thought that supporters would be daft to give anything at all.

[Hibbyradge]

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Not ignoring the rest of your post, just picking up on the above.

I was speaking to someone that was heavily involved in the "Save Our Hearts" campaign when they needed to dig deep to save Tynecastle. He stated that they were given £800k in pledges (not even hard cash) and that a lot of that was from local businesses that were worried about loss of trade if Tynecastle was sold off. He reckons that they'd be lucky to get £300k in a proper share issue, and actually thought that supporters wouldn be daft to give anything at all.

I know loads of folk who will buy these "shares".

[green glory]

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I know loads of folk who will buy these "shares".

I'd call them moonbeams.

[StevieC]

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I know loads of folk who will buy these "shares".

Definitely, there is bound to be loads. You won't get many parting with more than the basic £110 though and that would mean that pretty much all of them, rather than loads, would need to part with their hard earned cash for it to be a success.

And imagine the divide it will cause between those that buy shares and those that don't if it doesn't succeed and the club goes under. The "loads" that you mention will be spitting nails at the rest, when Romanov pockets their cash and liquidates the club.

[Hibbyradge]

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Definitely, there is bound to be loads. You won't get many parting with more than the basic £110 though and that would mean that pretty much all of them, rather than loads, would need to part with their hard earned cash for it to be a success.

And imagine the divide it will cause between those that buy shares and those that don't if it doesn't succeed and the club goes under. The "loads" that you mention will be spitting nails at the rest, when Romanov pockets their cash and liquidates the club.

Oh you silver tongued devil, you.

[Bostonhibby]

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Is that a Yam trying to impale himself on railings ?

One of my favourite photos from the day, I especially like the one right next to him who appears not to have a face, presumably he has has the badge and everything else tattooed over it just for the big day.

[fat freddy]

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Reading this thread meant I just had to dig this one out again, you just never tire of watching it.

:fenlon:giruy:

thats the first time i've watched that match and i cant help but be amazed with the similarity of the 2nd goal by the dundee player, kidd i think his name is, and a goal scored in another match featuring edinburgh's biggest club when they were unlucky to not win an eight goal thriller because of some player called latapy scoring the final goal which swung the match in the favour of a wee team whose name escapes me at the moment...the kidd and latapy goals are identical.

[WindyMiller]

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I can just imagine him with his abacus trying to sort out the mess.

[Hibbyradge]

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Reading this thread meant I just had to dig this one out again, you just never tire of watching it.

:fenlon:giruy:

It's fitting that Albert scores after around 6.55 of that video cos that's exactly how long the Yams had left to avoid conceding a goal.

I wish someone had footage from Easter Road when those goals went in.

[--------]

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thats the first time i've watched that match and i cant help but be amazed with the similarity of the 2nd goal by the dundee player, kidd i think his name is, and a goal scored in another match featuring edinburgh's biggest club when they were unlucky to not win an eight goal thriller because of some player called latapy scoring the final goal which swung the match in the favour of a wee team whose name escapes me at the moment...the kidd and latapy goals are identical.

It's worth noting that in that Dundee side was one Jim Duffy, wearing 6.

Last man to touch the ball.

[nonshinyfinish]

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Or to give it its full and proper name, word association football.

I was hoping that would be a video of Pat Nevin playing Clarke Carlisle at Scrabble.

[Caversham Green]

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Apologies of the below has been covered already!

While I'm not an expert on insolvency, I've got a couple of scenarios here:

Share issue raises (generous estimate) £1m. Hearts lose the tax case and face a final bill of say £3m. What is to stop UBIG crystalising the charge over Tynecastle, cash in bank (to the tune of the £1m raised by the rights issue less costs) plus any other assets (if there are any) and letting HMRC join the other unsecured creditors? Obviously in this case any unsecured creditors wouldn't even get a pence in the pound deal, they would get absolutely nothing. If Hearts started to pay the HMRC bill, any money paid is money that would therefore not be covered by the charge and would not go to UBIG. At that point UBIG would save £3m by not having the HMRC bill to pay, could sell Tynecastle for say £10m, close the doors on the club and cut their losses there?

The only other scenario I could see (if Hearts lose the tax case) is that all players are put up for sale, money raised is used to pay back the HMRC bill and Hearts play youths on <£500 a week. All savings are then used on the payment plan to HMRC and to UBIG. The problem (from Hearts' point of view) of this is that with the debt so high, UBIG don't have any real prospect of getting the £22m (plus interest accuring at £1m+ per year) back. Presumably further lending (which has been said wouldn't come from UBIG) would be required to pay off HMRC, so with all of that money going out the club, it further reduces the prospect of UBIG getting their money back, making (in my eyes at least) the above scenario the only option. Even if UBIG did not resort to the above scenario, the team would most likely be extremely weakened, probably relegated and would probably see reduced attendances (depending on fan loyalty of course).

With the second of these scenarios being the better of the two, I'd say it makes for a pretty grim reading for those down Gorgie way...

Any expert (and non-expert!) opinions would be most welcome on the above!

Right, I'll say to start with that this is food for thought rather what I think is going to happen, but...

The key is the rule about directors personal liability for trading while insolvent. The rule is that the directors could become personally liable for any costs incurred when they knew the company to be insolvent. The tax case would would fall outside that rule because it's not a cost that was incurred during the insolvent period and the proceeds of the share issue would also escape because it's not a cost, it's an attempt to raise capital. Hold those thoughts.

Fuddytoerag said in an interview that the share proceeds would not be used to pay the tax bill and that they would seek alternative funding. It has also been said (I think in the share brochure) that all other attempts to find alternative funding have been exhausted. So, if they lose the tax case they can claim to have no option but to effect an insolvency event - they can't continue to trade because they would be incurring extra costs and the funding they were previously depending on has been stopped.

That means UBIG stand to take everything that can be raised from a liquidation because their debt is greater than the total liquidation value. However, that value will have been increased by whatever the share issue raises so UBIG gain slightly more than they would have done previously. The timing fits almost perfectly and I can't see that any fraud could be proven - whether the share proceeds would be worth it is debatable.

As I say, food for thought.

[alexedwards]

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Right, I'll say to start with that this is food for thought rather what I think is going to happen, but...

The key is the rule about directors personal liability for trading while insolvent. The rule is that the directors could become personally liable for any costs incurred when they knew the company to be insolvent. The tax case would would fall outside that rule because it's not a cost that was incurred during the insolvent period and the proceeds of the share issue would also escape because it's not a cost, it's an attempt to raise capital. Hold those thoughts.

Fuddytoerag said in an interview that the share proceeds would not be used to pay the tax bill and that they would seek alternative funding. It has also been said (I think in the share brochure) that all other attempts to find alternative funding have been exhausted. So, if they lose the tax case they can claim to have no option but to effect an insolvency event - they can't continue to trade because they would be incurring extra costs and the funding they were previously depending on has been stopped.

That means UBIG stand to take everything that can be raised from a liquidation because their debt is greater than the total liquidation value. However, that value will have been increased by whatever the share issue raises so UBIG gain slightly more than they would have done previously. The timing fits almost perfectly and I can't see that any fraud could be proven - whether the share proceeds would be worth it is debatable.

As I say, food for thought.

Fedo is talking single fish - Hearts have had approaches to buy the club for certain but they aren't interested in selling although partners would be welcome.
They want to hold on to the club for the foreseeable future - the tax bill will be paid as several others have. Understand you are more of an expert in certain areas than most - so given the info above what do you think is the plan?

[Caversham Green]

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Fedo is talking single fish - Hearts have had approaches to buy the club for certain but they aren't interested in selling although partners would be welcome.
They want to hold on to the club for the foreseeable future - the tax bill will be paid as several others have. Understand you are more of an expert in certain areas than most - so given the info above what do you think is the plan?

I honestly can't fathom why they'd want to keep the club in its current condition, nor can I see why anyone would want to buy it unless they were a rich fan. Maybe they think the council-funded stadium will eventually happen and the value of the club will increase as a result, but as it stands the club is a basket case and the debt in excess of the asset value is just lost money - there's no realistic chance of them recovering it.

[greenginger]

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Fedo is talking single fish - Hearts have had approaches to buy the club for certain but they aren't interested in selling although partners would be welcome.
They want to hold on to the club for the foreseeable future - the tax bill will be paid as several others have. Understand you are more of an expert in certain areas than most - so given the info above what do you think is the plan?

Plan ! there is no plan, the whole of Romanov's business empire ( used in jest ) is teetering on the brink.

The Alumina smelter AKA the jewel in the crown is loosing money, wages not paid ,massive utility bills.

High exposure to the Lithuanian property market which is at rock bottom.


His Ukio Bankas,loosing money for the 4th year in a row will probably need re-financed again in a couple of months time. Already given up any hope of an Edinburgh branch and still got a very expensive, totally useless monolith in St Andrew Square that you could not give away.

Got a Football club which devours money no matter how often they claim to be making it self sustainable with a fan base who will either walk away or turn very nasty in the near future.
He has an HMRC bill for £ 1.75 million which will increase to £ 3 million + with interest and penalties and he is having to employ tax lawyers and all the rest to try and offer some sort of defence. ( 3 - 5 hundred K for that )

And you ask what is the plan.

Adolf had more wriggle room in his bunker !

[Saorsa]

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http://www.heartsfc.co.uk/articles/2...241384_2966692

Good to see Hertz ramping up the emotional blackmail by emplying wee Blobbo.

Paying him in bevvy no doubt.

This is what he looked like the last time they employed him

[Saorsa]

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Just heard that Gary Mckay is going to auction off his medal collection to help raise funds for his beloved Hearts!

Ok who wants to tell him!!

Never mind, he can still help by handing out the prospectuses, he has previous experience

[MSK]

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Never mind, he can still help by handing out the prospectuses, he has previous experience

You would think he would at least have all his winners medals round his neck eh ..?...

[Saorsa]

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You would think he would at least have all his winners medals round his neck eh ..?...

maybe he didnae want tae show off