Generic Sevco / Rangers meltdown thread

[StevieC]

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matters for a couple of reasons I think, one it will set a precedent to go after other clubs with and they may also decide to pursue the directors of the company at the time i.e. SDM.

Hopefully soon to be simply DM

tumblr_m5kdl93Ph91qks2j1o1_500.jpg

[alfie]

I thought that we were refering to him simply as Minty Moonbeams now?

[JeMeSouviens]

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1. every instance of "EBTising" would have to be reviewed by the Tribunal. That takes time.

2. OldCo's tax advisers would have stopped working for them some time ago, as they wouldn't have been paid. That would delay, even stop, the dialogue that needs to happen in these situations.

On pt 2: the Huns were represented by a lawyer representing the Murray Group. In fact it was a condition of the deal between Whyte and Murray that all dealings with the tax tribunal would continue to be via Murray Group reps.

[JeMeSouviens]

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They were advised by Murray International's tax people that EBT's were a legitimate tax avoidance measure. IIRC, that advice was based on a scheme devised by..... (his name is somewhere in the dark depths of this thread)... who had had "success" with them elsewhere.

Tax avoidance schemes are devised all the time (see Carr, J. ). Some are legitimate, some are challenged by HMRC. Part of the reason they do spring up is that UK Tax Law is ridiculously complex; it then becomes a game between highly-paid experts on the one side, and civil servants on the other.

Paul Baxendale-Walker, a porn star lawyer *** tax adviser. Oo-er etc. ....

[steakbake]

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I thought that we were refering to him simply as Minty Moonbeams now?

Can you explain that one? I've never understood what it means!

[JeMeSouviens]

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Can you explain that one? I've never understood what it means!

Just before he appointed Paul Le Guen, Murray gave an interview saying "a massive moonbeam of success" was coming to Rangers. That worked out well then.

[Liberal Hibby]

What I can't understand is given their impecunious circumstances is how they have managed to launch a new children's toy range?

Blue nose toys

[The Green Goblin]

This thread's fair dyin' eh?

[Gettin' Auld]

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What I can't understand is given their impecunious circumstances is how they have managed to launch a new children's toy range?

Blue nose toys

Ha Ha - I thought it was called 'taxman teddy' when i first listened.

[johnrebus]

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This thread's fair dyin' eh?

Quiet for now, but not for long.

[LeighLoyal]

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Quiet for now, but not for long.

Orcs were clinging on to the Juninho EBT in the whatabooterry stakes , that's that cuddly toy taken off the cheating inbreds! Not long now! EBT tribunal, Nimmo... the Sally and Gween whine won't stop what's coming.

[The Green Goblin]

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Quiet for now, but not for long.

Heh heh. Yup.... ;-)

[PatHead]

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Orcs were clinging on to the Juninho EBT in the whatabooterry stakes , that's that cuddly toy taken off the cheating inbreds! Not long now! EBT tribunal, Nimmo... the Sally and Gween whine won't stop what's coming.

I hate the way Swally and "The Rangers" fans keep saying they are getting punished for the EBTs. They are not they are being investigated for cheating by not disclosing the earnings from dual contracts. As far as the SPL are concerned any club could have done EBTs as long as they declared them.

At this time the EBT problem is with Hector and no one else.

[Nailrod]

Latest in Sevco's inexorable rise back up the ranks of Scottish football...

Five games into the season, an amateur team is currently sitting higher in the Scottish Leagues than Sevco.

[PatHead]

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Latest in Sevco's inexorable rise back up the ranks of Scottish football...

Five games into the season, an amateur team is currently sitting higher in the Scottish Leagues than Sevco.

Thanks for improving an awfy good day. Wee text round the huns coming up

[LeighLoyal]

Shame about Simpleton... If I was a Div 3 window cleaner I'd be throwing hammers at them too!

[Antifa Hibs]

http://scottishfootballmonitor.wordp...#comment-10738

Good wee post on the above link.

http://kumb.com/forum/viewtopic.php?...8488&p=3517202

Good wee read on that WHU forum tae. Hammers also must be anti-prod bigots aswell, eh Mr Green...

[LeighLoyal]

Excellent post by a Hammer poster Wembley66. Sums it up very well, especially the Green shenanigans over the word EBT and newc/oldco when it suits them.


by Wembley1966 on Thu Sep 13, 2012 10:39 am

dub wrote:Cheats who perverted the course of the game in Scotland, and indeed in Europe via playing these players v every team they met in the period in question. a scandal unmatched in British football history via tax dodging on a huge scale. And now this, dual contracts stuff!! FFS???

The main cheating that they have so far been found guilty of was not down to tax dodging - it was Rangers not paying income tax and VAT that had already been collected from employees and customers and not remitted to HMRC during last season. This resulted in the former owner, Craig Whyte being found guilty of bringing the game into disrepute (and fined which he hasn't paid) and Rangers prohibited from registering any players over the age of 18 for 12 months (Note that this is the ONLY punishment that Rangers has received throughout this whole fiasco, everything else is as a consequence of their own actions - 10 point deduction for going into administration, no longer eligible to play in the SPL as they announced that they are going into liquidation, ineligible to play in Europe for 3 years as they are a new company).

The potential tax dodging through the use of EBTs is still not decided - that is known as The Big Tax Case and is currently awaiting the results of Rangers appeal to the First Tier Tribunal (Tax) that concluded hearing the evidence at the beginning of this year and whose judgement is still awaited (expected sometime in the next month, but not definite). The Dual Contracts is related to the use of EBTs in that the EBT payments in order to be tax efficient and legal had to be in the form of discretionary payments (i.e. not fixed payments each month and not related to any performance criteria such as appearances, win bonuses, etc.) and that these payments were paid as a loan. No footballer, or their agents, would accept a considerable chunk of their income being discretionary and only a 'loan' so they had side letters (which were contractual) specifying the additional payments to them through the EBTs. These side letters had to be kept from HMRC and as a result they were also not disclosed to the SFA/SPL. SFA (and FIFA) rules require that all payments made to players, managers, etc must be declared to them - if they're not the player is deemed not to be properly registered.

So the dual contracts has been known about for a few years, but only after the BBC documentary in May that detailed the EBT payments and which players had side letters did the the SPL get around to investigating them. They asked all their clubs back in May to submit details of their use of EBTs and Rangers (or Duff & Phelps who were the administrators of Rangers at the time) didn't bother providing any information. It was only when they were threatened with expulsion that they provided the information. Independent lawyers then decided that there was a primae facia case for Rangers to answer and now the independent inquiry to investigate Rangers use of dual contracts will be heard in November.

This has nothing to do with the Big Tax Case decision and nothing to do with whether the EBTs were legal or not. Sevco are trying to muddy the waters and continually refer to the investigation as being about EBTs when it is not, it's about undisclosed dual contracts. You'll see comments from Sevco with all sorts of references that the use of EBTs are not illegal; that the EBTs were shown in the Company accounts and therefore the SFA knew about them and did nothing about them; that it was the old club and not us; that they won't cooperate with the investigation (how can they if it was the old club and not them) and also that Celtic paid Juninho through an EBT and why are they not being investigated (they're not, because all the documentation relating to the EBT payments was lodged with the SFA and they also paid the tax on it).

devonshire flu wrote:Sevco Franchise are going to lose their titles. Oldco directors will be going to jail.

Sevco are now arguing that they 'bought' the titles (similar to the Daves' offereing Citeh a few bob to buy last season's Premier title from them so we can claim it as ours?), and cannot have any that were wonby Rangers when playing illegally registered players taken away from them - Charles Green has also said that they have never played in the SPL so any decision of the SPL cannot affect them. Well if they never played in the SPL then they are a brand new club and have no history at all.

The Oldco directors won't go to jail over dual contracts - but they might over fraud relating to the whole fiasco over the running of Rangers for the last 10 years. If the Big Tax Case goes against Rangers then HMRC and Strathclyde police will be digging deeper. Will the players be forced to repay their loans or pay the tax due if they were not loans!! Why did Graeme Souness benefit from EBT payments many years after he left Rangers whilst managing other clubs that were having transfer dealing with Rangers. Also once old Rangers are formally liquidated then BDO as liquidators will start to unravel how £100+m worth of assets were sold to Sevco for £5m (the gratuitous alienation!).

[grunt]

More from Alex Thomson

http://blogs.channel4.com/alex-thoms...fall-book/2681

Rangers: Why I endorsed Downfall book

One or two Rangers supporters have been asking in recent weeks why I decided to write the foreword for Phil Mac Giolla Bhain’s book on Rangers, Downfall.

There’s been rather a lot of noise about this so let me stick to some clear facts which illustrate why I endorse the book and why it is telling that – as far as the publisher is aware – not one MSM newspaper in Scotland has reviewed the book as yet. Which is odd, since it is currently into a third print-run. It is billed as Scottish Book of the Month in WHSmith and has been high in the Amazon bestseller lists. It is also (small detail lost in ear-spitting hysteria) the truth about Rangers.

I’ve had the usual endearing tsunami of abuse from a small number of Rangers fans for endorsing a book most claim not to have read (yes, I know…) But not one single communication taking issue with the facts, substance and truth of Downfall. The book is the truth – and no Rangers fan reading it will disagree with that. This is why I endorsed it. I have never met Mr Mac Giolla Bhain. He was not the source for any of the major stories about Rangers Channel 4 News broke this year. He wishes to see Rangers FC obliterated as far as I can discern.
I wish to see Rangers in the Champions League again. Mr Mac Giolla Bhain supports Celtic. I (let me say this just one more time) don’t. He writes about Rangers’ downfall with undisguised glee and mirth. I write, saddened for their legions of loyal fans so badly sold out by the suits.
But as a journalist and an outsider to this cauldron I simply want the facts of Rangers’ implosion in the public domain and those responsible held to account. That is why I made this clear in my foreword. And made it clear I do not, could not, share the Celtic-driven motivation of Mr Mac Giolla Bhain and other notable bloggers.

However, though the author and I may be in very different places, we want the truth about what happened. So all those interested should have one simple question in mind – is the book the truth of the Rangers fiasco? That, ultimately, is all that matters. I believe it is. I also believe the bizarre adventures of Downfall en route from the printers to the bookshelves prove an important dimension of the book and of my investigations into Rangers. Namely, the way in which the MSM in Glasgow have been outflanked by the bloggers and their distaste for handling the truth the bloggers have consistently delivered. Time and again the bloggers got the story first, and they mostly got it right. With some notable exceptions, Glasgow’s MSM were left playing catch-up and even now, handed the story on a plate, bizarre things happen.
The Scottish Sun’s u-turn and refusal to serialise, having done a double-page spread promoting the author and the coming serialisation-that-never-was will long remain a baffling and scarcely explained episode. Apparently it was not worries about a boycott. Apparently it was not the result of intimidation. But didn’t The Sun publish two pages on the author being threatened by Rangers fans in their own pre-serialisation splash? Didn’t The Sun approach the publisher asking for serialisation rights and not the other way round? Curiouser and curiouser…

So a man comes along plainly telling the truth about Rangers. Nobody disputes that. The Sun un-serialises and starts apologising. No other paper publishes so much as a review. And a review of a book which charts many things and one is – guess what? Yup – the strange, historic reluctance of the MSM in Glasgow to handle the truth of what happened at Ibrox. Many thought that culture was something of the past, gone with Sir David and Craig, history. Many thought that things are different now in Glasgow. The bizarre conduct of the MSM over Downfall suggests to some that the fear, the deference, is alive and well. Others will say Scotland’s newspapers completely ignoring the inside story of the nation’s biggest-ever sporting business catastrophe and near ruination of a gigantic footballing culture, was, well, just coincidence.
Nothing to see here. No story. Move along please.

[poolman]

More cr@p from Fatty Traynor


Whether or not they’ve suffered enough is a debate which will still rage, mostly in the cyber domains of the deranged, but it’s nonsense to suggest they haven’t been damaged.

I take it he means people like us

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/f...-years-1327563

[grunt]

And a reminder that Ticketus haven't entirely gone away

http://local.stv.tv/glasgow/190615-e...over-27m-deal/

Ex-Rangers owner Craig Whyte faces court date with Ticketus over £27m dealTicketus is expected to begin court proceedings in the coming weeks against former Rangers owner Craig Whyte over a £26.7m deal he used to fund his takeover.
The ticketing firm is pursuing Mr Whyte after he used future season ticket sales to wipe out the Ibrox club’s £18m debt to Lloyds Banking Group last May. Ticketus, which is a subsidiary of Octopus Investments, is taking legal action against Mr Whyte after administrators Duff and Phelps failed to agree a company voluntary arrangement (CVA) with creditors in June. It is unclear whether Ticketus will launch the action in Scottish or English courts, while most of Mr Whyte’s business interests are linked to the British Virgin Islands-registered firm, Liberty Capital Ltd, including Rangers FC Group, the company he used to buy Sir David Murray’s 85% stake for £1. The civil action raised by the investment company is not likely to be heard until next year.

A spokesman for the firm said on Monday: "Ticketus is continuing to pursue, through the courts, the terms of the corporate and personal guarantees agreed with Craig Whyte at the time of the original contract between Ticketus and Rangers FC in May 2011." After being appointed in February, Duff and Phelps sought guidance from the Court of Session over the contract Mr Whyte had agreed with Ticketus to effectively fund his takeover of the Ibrox club. Lord Hodge found that Ticketus did not, under Scots law, own future season ticket sales at Rangers as it had claimed. He established that the company owned "personal contractual rights" to around 100,000 season ticket sales in a deal that could be breached by administrators if it was deemed to be in the interests of the creditors overall.

In May, Duff and Phelps gave Ticketus formal notification that the deal was being terminated, which was not opposed by the London firm. As a result, the company was listed as a creditor worth £26.7m in the failed CVA, which consigned the 'oldco' Rangers to liquidation under the control of neutral insolvency firm BDO. Following the failure to strike a deal with creditors, the administrators sold the Charles Green-led Sevco consortium the club's assets in a £5.5.m deal that saw them transferred to a newco.

On Monday BDO, which will be put in place on the insistence of Rangers’ largest creditor, HM Revenue and Customs, said it did not have a date for its appointment confirmed yet. In May, Ticketus announced that it had made demands for repayment from Mr Whyte and also from his wholly-owned company Liberty Capital. Rangers were plunged into administration in February owing up to £134m, including £18.3m in unpaid VAT and PAYE during Mr Whyte's nine-month reign at the club. Previously, Mr Whyte said: "The only person at risk from the deal is me personally because I gave Ticketus personal and corporate guarantees underwriting their investment; the club and the fans are fully protected. In terms of exposure, I am personally on the line for £27.5m in guarantees and cash."

[Hibiza]

[PatHead]

A thing not mentioned is that they (MSM) can still publish excerpts from a bigotted, wife beater ex-Rangers player without any qualms. Double standards without a doubt.

[Stevie Reid]

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More cr@p from Fatty Traynor


Whether or not they’ve suffered enough is a debate which will still rage, mostly in the cyber domains of the deranged, but it’s nonsense to suggest they haven’t been damaged.

I take it he means people like us

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/f...-years-1327563

He's utterly pathetic - still protecting David Murray to this day.

Tube.

Also tries to write with authority on EBTs but just seems to either have been genuinely suckered in by Green's pish, or is trying manipulate the idiots as cynically as Green is.

[ballengeich]

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He's utterly pathetic - still protecting David Murray to this day.

Tube.

Yes - still seeking the succulent lamb. On the Radio Scotland phone in on Saturday evening he was also supporting another misconception - that Rangers were not in any financial trouble when Whyte took over from Murray as their debt was sustainable. They could service the debt, but that was less important than the underlying trading model which depended on being the Champions' League every season. As soon as Malmo beat them a multi-million pound loss for the season was on the way and the debt was soaring again. I think Whyte actually said he should have put them into administration the day after the Malmo defeat.

This goes back to the reason why no smart Rangers-supporting business man wanted to hand David Murray a pound to take control of Rangers. They all knew that they would either have to find many more millions to support a loss-making club or make a level of spending cuts that would leave them as the Orcs' public enemy number 1 with all the hassle that would cause.

[jacomo]

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He's utterly pathetic - still protecting David Murray to this day.

Tube.

Also tries to write with authority on EBTs but just seems to either have been genuinely suckered in by Green's pish, or is trying manipulate the idiots as cynically as Green is.

Traynor's article is a disgrace. Seems the Huns and their mouthpieces will spout any old incendiary nonsense to back up their argument, regardless of whether or not it's true.

Alex Thomo's criticism of the Scottish media is spot on - they have a lot to answer for.

[LeighLoyal]

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Yes - still seeking the succulent lamb. On the Radio Scotland phone in on Saturday evening he was also supporting another misconception - that Rangers were not in any financial trouble when Whyte took over from Murray as their debt was sustainable. They could service the debt, but that was less important than the underlying trading model which depended on being the Champions' League every season. As soon as Malmo beat them a multi-million pound loss for the season was on the way and the debt was soaring again. I think Whyte actually said he should have put them into administration the day after the Malmo defeat.

This goes back to the reason why no smart Rangers-supporting business man wanted to hand David Murray a pound to take control of Rangers. They all knew that they would either have to find many more millions to support a loss-making club or make a level of spending cuts that would leave them as the Orcs' public enemy number 1 with all the hassle that would cause.

The guy is an absolute joke. At least Cosgrove is there to lend some impartial credibility, but please just get rid of Traynor BBC! You can also add the fact they knew, pre Whyte, that they had the wee tax bill to pay and the much bigger tax bill also despite the claims that their legal advice said otherwise. "Legal advice" from the same porn dude that set it up for them I'll guess. Shameless club.

[Baldy Foghorn]

Saw photo in one newspaper Today from Annan match.....

Was a knuckle-dragger with clenched fist, with union jack draped on barrier....The words painted on it were "SFA & SPL CORRUPT TO THE CORE"..

Amazing that it is everyone's fault bar their own Club....... And they wonder why they are hated throughout the Country

[Seveno]

Had anyone seen Jim Traynor and Charles Green at the same time ?

Thought not.

[Jim44]

Continuing the 'it's never our fault them' they are putting the Templeton injury down to the plastic pitch, saying these pitches should not be used at that level. Several identical surfaces are used by Champions League clubs.