Generic Sevco / Rangers meltdown thread

[The Falcon]

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Even now, Mr. BDO will be scouring the message-boards, armed with pad and pencil, looking for suggestions......"oh, that's a decent shout. We'll have that one."

I would like to think so because there are a lot of legitimate points being raised on here, and on other boards and blogs. I can only tolerate their arrogance while living in hope that their greatest pain is yet to come.

[basehibby]

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Fair and moral to sue? No doubt.

Sensible and practical? Probably not.

I'm not going to get into the amounts themselves. That sort of spreadsheet-porn would keep some of my colleagues in wet dreams for months.

So, the practicalities:-

1. how much are Rangers going to be sued for? All of their winnings and profits during the EBT years? Seems fair. The potential earnings of the other clubs? Much more difficult to establish.

2. is it to be a class action, or is it every club for themselves? If the latter, there will be many actions competing with each other. The former seems more sensible, otherwise it just becomes an intractable mess.

3. how is the money to be shared out? Is it to be shared between all SPL clubs during that period? What about clubs RFC put out of the Cups? And clubs they put out of Europe? That sort of negotiation could take months to sort out, during which time TRFC would be taking appropriate (and legitimate) action to protect their assets.

4. once such an action started, TRFC would probably be required to set aside a sum in case they lost. That action, by itself, might be enough to tip them over into insolvency again. Wouldn't be helpful.

5. all of the above would take time.... for which read "cost a lot of money", with no guarantee of success. So... do Hibs spend money on it, at a time when we don't have much spare?

Finally, what happens if BDO are successful in having the property sale reversed, or in recovering the alleged market value? TRFC would have no cash to pay out in the above cases. RFC(IL) would have the cash, but we wouldn't have sued them. Even in the unlikely event that we could recover something from RFC(IL), it would only be a small percentage once the other creditors took their share.

This has been the most outrageous scam of the whole episode for me - the fact that Green and his Sevco were allowed to swan in and get Ibrox, Murray Park AND the Rangers Brand ALL for a desultory £5M!!!

This to me is a very clear case indeed of the administrators abusing their position and totally disregarding their primary duty to the creditors. I will be surprised, not to mention angry and disappointed, if the directors of Duff & Phelps do not find themselves facing criminal charges over this, as the tax payer and other creditors have clearly been robbed blind as the administrators bent over backwards to give Zombie Huns FC as trouble free a start to their new life as possible at OUR expense

PS - who are BDO and how long before this action comes to fruition???

[CropleyWasGod]

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This has been the most outrageous scam of the whole episode for me - the fact that Green and his Sevco were allowed to swan in and get Ibrox, Murray Park AND the Rangers Brand ALL for a desultory £5M!!!

This to me is a very clear case indeed of the administrators abusing their position and totally disregarding their primary duty to the creditors. I will be surprised, not to mention angry and disappointed, if the directors of Duff & Phelps do not find themselves facing criminal charges over this, as the tax payer and other creditors have clearly been robbed blind as the administrators bent over backwards to give Zombie Huns FC as trouble free a start to their new life as possible at OUR expense

PS - who are BDO and how long before this action comes to fruition???

The administrators will get the chance to justify the sale. They may be able to. I'd like to be in that room.

As for criminal charges, I think that's unlikely. The only criminality that I could even remotely see would be fraud.... but I am struggling to see what they would have gained out of it. Their fees are assured, and I don't see them benefitting from the NewHun scenario.

No, they may have been incompetent (and the jury has yet to report on that), but criminal? Can't see it.

BDO are Binder Dijke Otte, the proposed liquidators of RFC(IA). They haven't been appointed yet. I am surprised they aren't in post yet, but would expect it soon.

[Sylar]

Someone linked this to me earlier and I'm really not sure what to make (if anything) of this:

http://ireport.cnn.com/docs/DOC-830105

[jgl07]

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Someone linked this to me earlier and I'm really not sure what to make (if anything) of this:

http://ireport.cnn.com/docs/DOC-830105

Someone is on the loopy juice!

[CropleyWasGod]

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Someone linked this to me earlier and I'm really not sure what to make (if anything) of this:

http://ireport.cnn.com/docs/DOC-830105

You could print it out and make a nice hat.

I haven't seen the accounts of Scottish Premier League Ltd, so am only going on that report. However, it's a basic rule of Company Law that once a company establishes insolvency, then it must stop trading and the directors should take the appropriate steps to enter either administration or liquidation. Not to do so is an offence (criminal I think), and it renders the directors personally liable for any debts incurred by the company after the date on which insolvency is established.

Insolvency is defined as either where liabilities exceed assets (although it's fair to say that, in some cases, the accounts aren't the best way to establish that), or where a company can't pay its debts as they fall due.

I find it difficult to believe that, if the company is indeed insolvent, no directors have resigned as a consequence and made known their reasons for doing so. Looking at the current SPL Board reproduced below, there are plenty directors who should know their responsibilities.

"The current SPL Board is made up of Ralph Topping (SPL Chairman), Neil Doncaster (SPL Chief Executive), Eric Riley (Celtic FC), Stephen Thompson (Dundee United FC), Duncan Fraser (Aberdeen FC) and Michael Johnston (Kilmarnock FC)."


EDIT.... after all that, I have just seen JGL's considered response, and think he's probably right.

[Hibs Class]

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Someone linked this to me earlier and I'm really not sure what to make (if anything) of this:

http://ireport.cnn.com/docs/DOC-830105

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uuqry9SMjQM

[ballengeich]

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Someone linked this to me earlier and I'm really not sure what to make (if anything) of this:

http://ireport.cnn.com/docs/DOC-830105

Quoting from the article :- "Rangers were denied their rightful place in the SPL". Also, the phrase Prima Facie is misspelled on more than one occasion as Prima Facia (it's a Latin (i.e. Fenian) phrase). I hope that gives you enough information to identify the general direction of the source of the article and allows you to decide how much respect it deserves.

[Northernhibee]

http://forum.rangersmedia.co.uk/inde...ic=235622&st=0

Half time announcer makes joke, Sevco fans descend into racism, sectarianism and hunting down maker of said joke.

[Caversham Green]

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Someone linked this to me earlier and I'm really not sure what to make (if anything) of this:

http://ireport.cnn.com/docs/DOC-830105

He's right about liabilities exceeding assets by £196k, but what he omits to tell us us that there's just under £4m cash in the bank and debtors of over £3m (£1.4m of which is prepayments and accrued income). On the other hand, over £7m of the creditors is made up of accruals and deferred income - i.e. non-cash debts. I would guess that the majority of that will fall due to member clubs, and the company is not-for-profit. In short, when you consider the details the company doesn't look anywhere near insolvent.

Also, the name Dunwilco (597) Ltd looks to me like a shelf company, so the date of incorporation is irrelevant as is the names of the subscribers to the initial shares (I assume that's what the author is talking about re McCann). The rest of his comments are also irrelevant as the events regarding Celtic in 1994 are ancient history.

Yet more pish and wind from the huns.

[Haymaker]

If you ever need a laugh, rangers media is the place. Full of absolute roasters!

[CropleyWasGod]

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He's right about liabilities exceeding assets by £196k, but what he omits to tell us us that there's just under £4m cash in the bank and debtors of over £3m (£1.4m of which is prepayments and accrued income). On the other hand, over £7m of the creditors is made up of accruals and deferred income - i.e. non-cash debts. I would guess that the majority of that will fall due to member clubs, and the company is not-for-profit. In short, when you consider the details the company doesn't look anywhere near insolvent.

Also, the name Dunwilco (597) Ltd looks to me like a shelf company, so the date of incorporation is irrelevant as is the names of the subscribers to the initial shares (I assume that's what the author is talking about re McCann). The rest of his comments are also irrelevant as the events regarding Celtic in 1994 are ancient history.

Yet more pish and wind from the huns.

Dunwilco was/is the name used by Dundas & Wilson, a firm of solicitors, for their shelf companies.

[Lucius Apuleius]

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Dunwilco was/is the name used by Dundas & Wilson, a firm of solicitors, for their shelf companies.

And there was me thinking it was something to do with Livvy cooncilors.

[CropleyWasGod]

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And there was me thinking it was something to do with Livvy cooncilors.

It's Monday morning... you're gonny have to splain that one to me.

[Hibs7]

If you look at that hun website you soon see why they should have been thrown out of Scottish football forever. The lowest of the low support Newco.

[Onion]

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http://forum.rangersmedia.co.uk/inde...ic=235622&st=0

Half time announcer makes joke, Sevco fans descend into racism, sectarianism and hunting down maker of said joke.

Over the last few weeks, I was fearful that RFC would quickly emerge from the lower divisions, cock-a-hoop, debt-free and able to dominate the SPL again (with their twin from across the city). But I'm now increasingly convinced that just won't happen. Their CEO, manager, fans and sympathisers in the media are just incapable of acting like grown ups. Their ignorance, arrogance, lack of remorse and general crass behaviour is just making them more and more hated. Whether it's look at our 45 million fans, look how much money we can spend, Green's drunk SPL comments, McCoist's lack of contrition and the press' complete disrespect for the SPL clubs.... there's not a day goes by without the Huns trying to put the boot in. By the end of this season any remnants of sympathy from other clubs for that bunch will have vanished completely... effectively killing off any chance of them being FASTRACKED back into the SPL.

The irony is that had they just shut the F up, accepted their fate with a degree of decorum, they might have started to build bridges and a bit of support again from the DIV1 and SPL clubs. But I now rest peacefully, knowing that they will continue to gloat and antagonise the rest of the clubs - and all the fans who managed to see them off first time around - to the point where they have NO CHANCE of being allowed back into the top flight ahead of time.

[Lucius Apuleius]

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It's Monday morning... you're gonny have to splain that one to me.

Dun wil co. Willy Dunn Co.

[CropleyWasGod]

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Dun wil co. Willy Dunn Co.

[grunt]

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Why not?

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Over the last few weeks, I was fearful that RFC would quickly emerge from the lower divisions, cock-a-hoop, debt-free and able to dominate the SPL again (with their twin from across the city). But I'm now increasingly convinced that just won't happen. Their CEO, manager, fans and sympathisers in the media are just incapable of acting like grown ups. Their ignorance, arrogance, lack of remorse and general crass behaviour is just making them more and more hated. Whether it's look at our 45 million fans, look how much money we can spend, Green's drunk SPL comments, McCoist's lack of contrition and the press' complete disrespect for the SPL clubs.... there's not a day goes by without the Huns trying to put the boot in. By the end of this season any remnants of sympathy from other clubs for that bunch will have vanished completely... effectively killing off any chance of them being FASTRACKED back into the SPL.

Sorry CWG, I just noticed that you asked me a question. It's hard to explain it, but Onion's post helps me a bit. I see all the same issues that he does, but I conclude differently. I see all the arrogance, the continued flouting of rules, the press laying down to them, and I conclude that it seems inevitable they will return, debt free and stronger than ever. I doubt that there's enough money in the liquidation to fund any meaningful review by BDO, and I therefore don't see any prospect of a challenge to the sale of the assets to Green & Co. Plus, as every day goes by, it becomes more and more difficult to unwind that transaction. I see no will power in either the SPL or the SFA to go further than some symbolically significant but actually meaningless punishment for the dual contracts issue. Yes they may have some titles stripped, but in the long run, their fans will ignore that and the rest of us don't really care. So nothing will happen, and they will soon be back, debt free and with 40,000 season ticket holders.

I hope I'm wrong.

[grunt]

http://local.stv.tv/glasgow/186158-f...sevco-comment/

A PA announcer for Falkrik FC has been suspended from his job after referring to Rangers as the "Sevco Franchise".
The worker made the comment about the Glasgow club at half-time during Falkirk’s game against Raith Rovers.
On Monday, club chairman Martin Ritchie said an investigation had been launched into the "inappropriate comments about Rangers" made by the Falkirk Stadium announcer.
The comment refers to the previous business name of the newco club, Sevco Scotland, which is the title of the Charles Green-led consortium that purchased the assets of the clubs, that will result in the liquidation of the 'oldco', formerly called The Rangers Football Club plc.
Mr Ritchie added: "We have already apologised to Rangers FC and would now like to apologise to the many Rangers supporters who have been in contact with the club.
"Falkirk FC are treating this incident very seriously and the individual concerned has been suspended from his duties, pending a full investigation by the club."

[Northernhibee]

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http://local.stv.tv/glasgow/186158-f...sevco-comment/

Sevco fans are the lowest of the low.

Rumours circulating amongst SevcoMedia that if they draw an SPL team in the cup at Ibronx if they get past Falkirk, they'll charge £14 for a programme that contains a voucher to get in for a quid, thinking it means that the other team gets next to nothing on the gate split. Amusing - pretty sure that would make the face value of the ticket £15 still and they'd still have to pay the full whack to the other team. Could be wrong.

Was reading Fat Sally's analysis of the East Stirling game and I'm staggered by his back-patting, "We created a staggering amount of chances" etc.

He's playing the likes of Sandaza, Black, Alexander in division 3. By all means he should have won every game by now and he's not. He's already failed.

It staggers me how simple Sevco fans are. There's no competition for them in D3 (or shouldn't be, thanks Peterhead for a good laugh). It's like playing FIFA on the amateur setting, not fun and just for idiots.

[CropleyWasGod]

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Sorry CWG, I just noticed that you asked me a question. It's hard to explain it, but Onion's post helps me a bit. I see all the same issues that he does, but I conclude differently. I see all the arrogance, the continued flouting of rules, the press laying down to them, and I conclude that it seems inevitable they will return, debt free and stronger than ever. I doubt that there's enough money in the liquidation to fund any meaningful review by BDO, and I therefore don't see any prospect of a challenge to the sale of the assets to Green & Co. Plus, as every day goes by, it becomes more and more difficult to unwind that transaction. I see no will power in either the SPL or the SFA to go further than some symbolically significant but actually meaningless punishment for the dual contracts issue. Yes they may have some titles stripped, but in the long run, their fans will ignore that and the rest of us don't really care. So nothing will happen, and they will soon be back, debt free and with 40,000 season ticket holders.

I hope I'm wrong.

That is a concern for me, I have to say. However, given the circumstances, I would expect that one of the first things BDO will do will be to ask D&P to justify the sale. After all, that is where the most value lies for creditors.

That, in itself, won't be too costly. Someone on here (maybe via RTC or the like) told me that it is up to D&P to prove THEIR case, rather than BDO to disprove it.

[bythecringe]

Earlier posts referred to the theoretical possibility of court action against Sevco for damages re playing ineligible players during the financial doping period. I thought this was unlikely but noticed today that West Ham came to an out of court agreement with Sheffield United re Hammers playing an ineligible player - Tevez - and United being relegated as a result. Could the same thing happen here?? I know I forked out circa 10 times £400 for season tickets to watch a rigged league - what costs could the SFL clubs put together?

[LeighLoyal]

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Earlier posts referred to the theoretical possibility of court action against Sevco for damages re playing ineligible players during the financial doping period. I thought this was unlikely but noticed today that West Ham came to an out of court agreement with Sheffield United re Hammers playing an ineligible player - Tevez - and United being relegated as a result. Could the same thing happen here?? I know I forked out circa 10 times £400 for season tickets to watch a rigged league - what costs could the SFL clubs put together?

Could very well happen. Since Sevco are claiming to be Rangers FC (same way as if I bought the brand name to Third Lanark and called my pub team "Third Lanark", which includes the liquidated club's 2 Scottish Cups and 3 league titles ) they are laible for all the prize money won by Rangers FC during the cheating that went on 2001-2012 and damages. I assume Celtic will sue for being cheated out of the CL, and many others will see an opp. Rangers then, Rangers now, Rangers forever... Is that a fact Mr Green, well here is my writ.

[bythecringe]

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Earlier posts referred to the theoretical possibility of court action against Sevco for damages re playing ineligible players during the financial doping period. I thought this was unlikely but noticed today that West Ham came to an out of court agreement with Sheffield United re Hammers playing an ineligible player - Tevez - and United being relegated as a result. Could the same thing happen here?? I know I forked out circa 10 times £400 for season tickets to watch a rigged league - what costs could the SFL clubs put together?

Forgot to say £24 million out of court settlement.

[Just Alf]

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That is a concern for me, I have to say. However, given the circumstances, I would expect that one of the first things BDO will do will be to ask D&P to justify the sale. After all, that is where the most value lies for creditors.

That, in itself, won't be too costly. Someone on here (maybe via RTC or the like) told me that it is up to D&P to prove THEIR case, rather than BDO to disprove it.

This is the interesting bit.... especially as the minutes from a Sevco meeting 2 weeks after the sale have a Sevco director "bigging up" their business acumen to the supporters and stating "the club" was worth £55 million..... wonder how they'll explain that way?

[linlithgowhibbie]

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The Rangers con does seem to be working a treat, stole £140m, liquidated as a result, but still called "Rangers FC" and allowed the oldco registration by a compliant, weak SFA. They will always be Sevco from now on to me. Rangers died. UEFA know they died and that's why they are banned from Europe. A shame for them that Messrs Regan and Ogilivie don't run UEFA isn't it! Plague and pestilence is too good for all these DOBS.

Just my opinion mate but "DOBS" doesn't have any place on this board

[JeMeSouviens]

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Earlier posts referred to the theoretical possibility of court action against Sevco for damages re playing ineligible players during the financial doping period. I thought this was unlikely but noticed today that West Ham came to an out of court agreement with Sheffield United re Hammers playing an ineligible player - Tevez - and United being relegated as a result. Could the same thing happen here?? I know I forked out circa 10 times £400 for season tickets to watch a rigged league - what costs could the SFL clubs put together?

I don't think there's any chance of that at all. The SFA and the Scottish media may have crossed its fingers behind its back and tried to swallow the lie that this is the same club but there's no way a court will see them as the same entity. If you don't pay your car loan, its repossessed and I buy it second hand. I don't have to pay your speeding tickets.

[big-mo]

I see that Falkirk have apologised to Rangers for a comment made by their stadium announcer at their game, does anyone know what was said?

[wearethehibs]

The annoucer annoced the Huns score at half time and instead of calling them Rangers he called them Sevco something.

No idea how Rangers found out about it. The announcer has been sacked apparently. A bit of a joke if you ask me.