Generic Sevco / Rangers meltdown thread

[Hibees07]

As far as I was aware the SPL Board represent the SPL member clubs so is it correct to assume any negotiated deal to allow Sevco into the SFL division 1 (as per statement below) would mean that the SPL clubs individually had agreed to the deal.

"The notice of the special general meeting proposes "that Rangers FC shall play in the Third Division of the Scottish Football League during Season 2012/13 unless the board shall have to its satisfaction negotiated and reached agreement with The Scottish Premier League and The Scottish Football Association on a series of measures which the board shall consider to be in the best interests of the game... "

If this is the case then why did the 10 SPL clubs bother voting against Sevco in the first place, did they think that the supporters would merely accept a drop of 1 division as an acceptable punishment?.

Why are the SPL Board even involved in these discussions, Sevco are not an SPL club, and why are the SPL having to 'compensate' the SFL if they decide to allow a new club into their leagues. Does this mean that every new club triggers a new set of 'compensation' to the SFL?.

[Seveno]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

The wording of your question gives me the impression that your post is aimed at folk who have already made that decision. Could just be the wording though.

There is no doubt that there are people who appear to already have made that decision, or will make it depending on the outcome of the Rangers situation. They have their reasons and though I may not agree with them it is probably best that they follow their conscience and do what they think is best.

I have said on this board a number of times now that I will never take action which would damage Hibs in order to show my anger at a situation which was and is not of the clubs making .... How Hibs, Rod Petrie, the SPL, SFL, SFA or whoever have acted since the SPL vote against the Newco does not lead me to the conclusion that Hibs should cease to exist as a professional football club as a result.

The same goes for Scottish Football. At the end of the day I am going to stick around in the hope that the future for the game can be better, more honest, and fairer. Which, if nothing else, it should be once the dust settles on this fiasco. ... Please Lord let it be soon !!!

Tell you what though:

The one thing I dont want to see when this is all done and dusted is the folk who did jack it in coming onto this board .. or any other medium for that matter ... to tell me what a sucker, idiot, OF apologist or whatever I am for sticking with it.

If you are done with football altogether, or worse have decided to take the ( I am sure difficult sic ) decision to follow the EPL then BE DONE and leave the rest of us to get on with it.


GGTTH

Great post, Bovril.

[CropleyWasGod]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Why are the SPL Board even involved in these discussions, Sevco are not an SPL club, and why are the SPL having to 'compensate' the SFL if they decide to allow a new club into their leagues. Does this mean that every new club triggers a new set of 'compensation' to the SFL?.

As I understand it, the SPL pay a "settlement fee" as part of the deal which allowed them to leave the SFL in the first place.

[NAE NOOKIE]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

I can agree with the sentiment, our game has shown itself to be sickeningly corrupt to the core. Many will walk away, and I wouldn't blame a single one for doing so.

What happens on Friday will change things sure, but the journey to this point has been disgusting in the extreme. If come Friday night, and Sevco are happily sat in SFL1, what's the point of it all? Hell even they end up in SFL3, will we ever see real change? Will we ever have any trust in the governing bodies ever again?

The game in Scotland isn't facing death. It's dead. The question is how damaged will it be when it's resuscitated, because despite what fans everywhere want, we aren't going to get the new, fresh start we need.

Sorry to state the obvious mate ... you cant resuscitate something that is dead.

As for the rest of that paragraph I presume what you mean is we wont get the new fresh start you think we need.

Things which appear be on the table now as a result of what has happened:

A fair voting system in the SPL which will prevent any two clubs, or even one club, ever being able to dictate to the others again.

A much more equitable sharing out of the money coming into the game, from TV or elsewhere.

A future change to the league systems, which may well lead to a bigger SPL and play offs for promotion and relegation.

A much needed change of mindset in the game which will lead every club to the realisation that putting all of your eggs into one basket is the stupidest way to run a business you can get, and hopefully will lead to a lot of clubs deciding that the way forward is to rip themselves away from the old firm teat.

At the start of last season all of that stuff was a pipe dream ... the fact that its taken this mess to bring it about is unfortunate, but to pass up the opportunities it has presented would just be a bloody waste of a golden chance.

[The Green Goblin]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Is being in Brazil a good enough reason?

That's a crappy, pathetic comment and you know it. You have no idea at all of the extent to which I have supported Hibs during my life, or how I continue to do so, even from Brazil. I could lower myself to justify it to you, but there's plenty of folks on here who know and I am going to choose to show a bit more grace than you have done and refrain from making you look like a complete idiot.

[The Falcon]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Folks don't need to try all that hard to find reasons not to go and see Hibs these days though, do they? And they don't even need "reasons", they can just choose not to go.

In this particular example, I think refusing to support a totally and openly corrupt game that is set up to favour 2 teams at the expense of all the others is one of the more understandable/valid reasons to stop going.

Or any other era since the early seventies GG but i am sure someone will be along to tell us this is as bad as it's been. I have no problem if folk dont want to go.

But it is now at the point where the same folk keep finding different reasons not to go.

[Saorsa]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Never entered my head.

Seems to me folk are looking for reasons not to go and when folk do that they tend to find them.

What is it with folk like you and others that makes you think people need a reason no tae go tae the fitba? They dinnae! They just dinnae have tae go, it isnae compulsory and they dinnae have tae justify themselves tae the uber fans on here. I've been going tae ER for 34 years, if I wanted tae stop going I would have done it long before now. I've never let my dislike of Petrie stop me going tae the ER and supporting Hibs, I've been going tae ER road longer than he's been involved with Hibs. I've never let my disdain for the people that run Scottish fitba stop me going tae ER. With this though they have stepped way over the line of what I am prepared tae put up with. If this team end up in the 1st division football in this country will cease tae be a sport as far as I'm concerned and will be shown up for what it is, a corrupt money making racket and I'll no be puting my money in tae anything that lines the pockets of twisted *******s like regan and doncaster.

[Bishop Hibee]

Getting back to sevco, they could be in big trouble regardless of whatever league they manage to get into:

http://scotslawthoughts.wordpress.co...ack/#more-1460

More murky than a July day in Edinburgh

[PatHead]

What part of "Sporting integrity is more important than money" do these administrators not understand? Are they trying to kill the game

[The Green Goblin]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Or any other era since the early seventies GG but i am sure someone will be along to tell us this is as bad as it's been. I have no problem if folk dont want to go.

But it is now at the point where the same folk keep finding different reasons not to go.

My point was that I think there are people who genuinely have a problem with the apparent corruption which has been very much evident during this whole sorry saga, and that their choice not to go to the football because of that may therefore be considered a valid one, as opposed to more flimsy, transient reasons. I was neither supporting or criticising that decision, just stating that it was a genuine, but hard choice for some folks.

The other people you mention in your second sentence, well...I agree with you. But that's a different thing entirely.

[ScottB]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

[/B]Sorry to state the obvious mate ... you cant resuscitate something that is dead.

As for the rest of that paragraph I presume what you mean is we wont get the new fresh start you think we need.

Things which appear be on the table now as a result of what has happened:

A fair voting system in the SPL which will prevent any two clubs, or even one club, ever being able to dictate to the others again.

A much more equitable sharing out of the money coming into the game, from TV or elsewhere.

A future change to the league systems, which may well lead to a bigger SPL and play offs for promotion and relegation.

A much needed change of mindset in the game which will lead every club to the realisation that putting all of your eggs into one basket is the stupidest way to run a business you can get, and hopefully will lead to a lot of clubs deciding that the way forward is to rip themselves away from the old firm teat.

At the start of last season all of that stuff was a pipe dream ... the fact that its taken this mess to bring it about is unfortunate, but to pass up the opportunities it has presented would just be a bloody waste of a golden chance.

Yes you can. The person heart has stopped, they are technically dead, it may be restarted. Our game is dead. Either we start again, or try and breathe life into the current one, and hope it isn't too 'brain damaged' to function. I have my doubts.

Why will any of those things happen then?


This would appear to all be happening because the SPL are convinced they can only go one season without Rangers and their money, and are willing to offer trinkets to the SFL to make it happen. With that in mind, why would they then try and go about things that will weaken Rangers, clearly that doesn't make 'business sense' to our clubs. They aren't going to change things, they aren't going to go to a bigger league, they are going to sit there and patiently wait a season for the circus to begin again.

As others have pointed out, the SPL Board can't run around doing things without the clubs say so, it IS the clubs. Perhaps I'm being overly cynical, but a lovely 16 / 18 team league with fair shares of income and sporting integrity intact is, if anything, further away than ever as far as I'm concerned. At most the SFL will get their play off place into the SPL, then at some point the leagues will get a name change, the suits will rearrange their deck chairs and the Titanic will carry on towards the iceberg...

[Seveno]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Or any other era since the early seventies GG but i am sure someone will be along to tell us this is as bad as it's been. I have no problem if folk dont want to go.

But it is now at the point where the same folk keep finding different reasons not to go.

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

What is it with folk like you and others that makes you think people need a reason no tae go tae the fitba? They dinnae! They just dinnae have tae go, it isnae compulsory and they dinnae have tae justify themselves tae the uber fans on here. I've been going tae ER for 34 years, if I wanted tae stop going I would have done it long before now. I've never let my dislike of Petrie stop me going tae the ER and supporting Hibs, I've been going tae ER road longer than he's been involved with Hibs. I've never let my disdain for the people that run Scottish fitba stop me going tae ER. With this though they have stepped way over the line of what I am prepared tae put up with. If this team end up in the 1st division football in this country will cease tae be a sport as far as I'm concerned and will be shown up for what it is, a corrupt money making racket and I'll no be puting my money in tae anything that lines the pockets of twisted *******s like regan and doncaster.

What's this, Dan ? You don't like Petrie ? You kept that one quiet.

[Iggy Pope]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

That's a crappy, pathetic comment and you know it. You have no idea at all of the extent to which I have supported Hibs during my life, or how I continue to do so, even from Brazil. I could lower myself to justify it to you, but there's plenty of folks on here who know and I am going to choose to show a bit more grace than you have done and refrain from making you look like a complete idiot.

It was more of a question than a comment (hence the ?) and an answer would have been more appropraite than you throwing your weight about. Equally, you know nothing of me, however, it would seem my committment is clear and yours less so given the geography and your apparent position on the current topic. Imagine the downfall of Rangers being the ruin of Hibs? Even from your detached position that must seem farcical?

[The Falcon]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

What is it with folk like you and others that makes you think people need a reason no tae go tae the fitba? They dinnae! They just dinnae have tae go, it isnae compulsory and they dinnae have tae justify themselves tae the uber fans on here. I've been going tae ER for 34 years, if I wanted tae stop going I would have done it long before now. I've never let my dislike of Petrie stop me going tae the ER and supporting Hibs, I've been going tae ER road longer than he's been involved with Hibs. I've never let my disdain for the people that run Scottish fitba stop me going tae ER. With this though they have stepped way over the line of what I am prepared tae put up with. If this team end up in the 1st division football in this country will cease tae be a sport as far as I'm concerned and will be shown up for what it is, a corrupt money making racket and I'll no be puting my money in tae anything that lines the pockets of twisted *******s like regan and doncaster.

If I felt that strongly I wouldnt go either. But I dont believe they will end up in the first division. It will be the third and even then they are getting off lightly.

As far as I am aware they (rangers) have so far got nothing they wanted.

[Hibercelona]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Naw, but like you said elsewhere you will just have to go and watch Partick Thistle with your dad. The rest of us will just have to get on with it, like we always have.
You might be missed but we'll get over it.

See ya.

It's because people are willing to "just get on with it", that things will never change.

People get so used to being shafted that they eventually just accept it as the natural order of things.

It's very sad.

[calmac12000]

Its kinda hard to retain any enthusiasm for Scottish football, when those seem determined to give their supporters a metaphorical kick in the testicles
It just seem to be true that the powers that be are totally unable and unwilling to grasp the simple nature of most ordinary supporters objections to their endless contortions to ensure Rangers are not forced to, as any other club in a similar position would surely have to do, i.e. to begin their existence in the bottom tier of Scottish professional football.
Despise, the many obfuscations put forward in the media the reason for this is that quite simply that it is not fair.
In any sport, even n one so sullied by rank commercialism it is vital, in order to retain the support of the paying masses that the rules are straightforwardly devised and applied without fear or favour.
If this concept which is so central to the success of any professional sport cannot be grasped by those in charge then that sport will rightly die.
This stripped bare of all the smoke and mirrors is the stark choice facing every chairman of a Scottish club, for the vast majority of their so-called customer have made theirs.

[Keith_M]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Perhaps Thommo can explain....................

A senior Football League source has just leaked this to me. Note second section which appears to be a clear attempt to by-pass any vote and shoehorn Rangers Newco into Div 1. Incredible.
You have been warned:
Subject: SFL Special General Meeting – Friday, 13th July, 2012

Dear Sir or Madam,

....blah.....

(i) That the Scottish Football League Members agree to admit Sevco Scotland Limited as an Associate Member and agrees to permit Rangers F.C. to play in the League during Season 2012/13.
(ii) That the Scottish Football League Members direct the Board of Management of The Scottish Football League (the “Board”) to provide that Rangers F.C. shall play in the Third Division of the Scottish Football League during Season 2012/13 unless the Board shall have to its satisfaction negotiated and reached agreement with The Scottish Premier League and The Scottish Football Association on a series of measures which the Board shall consider to be in the best interests of the game, how it is structured, how it is governed and how it is financed, whereupon the Board shall be authorised to provide that Rangers F.C. shall play in the First Division of the Scottish Football League during Season 2012/13.
....blah....
David A. Longmuir

OK, I revert back to my previous view that the SFL clubs are being given NO specific vote on Friday to vote NewHun directly into the 3rd Division. This is an all or nothing vote of allowing NewHun to take up 'associate' membership and leave it to the SFL board as to what division they will be playing in.


If the clubs say NO, there would have to be yet another proposal put to them, if at all, that states they are voting NewHun into the 3rd division. It"s obvious by the proposal details that the SFL board are doing their utmost to avoid giving the clubs such an option, so I'd consider it highly unlikely that they'll come up with any such straightforward proposal in the near future. I'd imagine they"ll just keep coming up with similar proposals whereby the board are the ones that decide on which division NewHun are put in.

[Iggy Pope]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

It's because people are willing to "just get on with it", that things will never change.

People get so used to being shafted that they eventually just accept it as the natural order of things.

It's very sad.

Principles are one thing. Turning your back on your club when they are in the doo-doo is another.

[Hibercelona]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

If I felt that strongly I wouldnt go either. But I dont believe they will end up in the first division. It will be the third and even then they are getting off lightly.

As far as I am aware they (rangers) have so far got nothing they wanted.

They aren't "Rangers". I wish people would stop referring to them as such.

"Sevco 5088" are a "new company", that need to earn their right to play in the league.

They are NOT Rangers.

[Saorsa]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

If I felt that strongly I wouldnt go either. But I dont believe they will end up in the first division. It will be the third and even then they are getting off lightly.

As far as I am aware they (rangers) have so far got nothing they wanted.

and if that 'new club' are in the 3rd division I will be at ER next season. Hopefully there will be enough of those at the lower leagues will be capable of doing the right thing because those at the top have proven they clearly are not.

After that I'd like tae see Scottish fitba rid itself of these people (parasites) who have little interest in the good of the game (starting with regan and dungcaster) and only what they can make out of it.

[Sir David Gray]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Principles are one thing. Turning your back on your club when they are in the doo-doo is another.

I think if the new club is admitted into the 1st division next season then a lot of people will be of the opinion that Scottish football is not worth supporting as it is corrupt and rotten to the core.

They will ask, what will be the point in going along to support a club that tries to operate in the correct way and has a limited spending budget as a result and has had years of cost cutting, when there's a club, which has overspent for years, cheated their way to success and bought players they could not afford, that has gone into liquidation, reformed as a new company, gone straight into the second highest division and within a season are more than likely going to be beating us again on a regular basis and challenging for titles again that we can only dream of.

In terms of boycotting any future matches in Scotland, it's not a view that I necessarily share although it is one that I can seriously sympathise with and completely understand.

[The Falcon]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

My point was that I think there are people who genuinely have a problem with the apparent corruption which has been very much evident during this whole sorry saga, and that their choice not to go to the football because of that may therefore be considered a valid one, as opposed to more flimsy, transient reasons. I was neither supporting or criticising that decision, just stating that it was a genuine, but hard choice for some folks.

The other people you mention in your second sentence, well...I agree with you. But that's a different thing entirely.

As i said in my reply to Dan Rangers have, to date at least, been knocked back at every turn. I think the "apparent corruption" is because some clubs, Kilmarnock being the most vocal, are hugely concerned as Rangers provide a large chunk of their income and all the scare stories put out by Traynor and his cohorts are only adding fuel to their already raging concerns. I do not believe that Hibernian FC are any part of this (nor are Aberdeen or Hearts for that matter) but I can see how some of the other clubs are concerned and that is how this preposterous document was born. I do not believe it will survive.

I dont really see the point about getting so excited about something that, in all probability, is unlikely happen.

[Hibercelona]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Principles are one thing. Turning your back on your club when they are in the doo-doo is another.

Turning your back on the club is one thing.

Turning your back on the club because they play in a league where sporting integrity is non-existant and corruption is blatantly obvious for all to see, is something completely different.

Until Hibs and other clubs make a stance and make it clear that they won't participate in this farce league until things change, I won't be back to Scottish Football either.

Guess i'll "see ya" then.

[ac1]

Said it since this started -

Sevco into Division 3 I will be down to Easter Road for a season ticket

Sevco 'put' into Division 1 I won't be back for good.

Total corruption involved here for the good of one Newco

[The Green Goblin]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

It was more of a question than a comment (hence the ?) and an answer would have been more appropraite than you throwing your weight about. Equally, you know nothing of me, however, it would seem my committment is clear and yours less so given the geography and your apparent position on the current topic. Imagine the downfall of Rangers being the ruin of Hibs? Even from your detached position that must seem farcical?

It totally seemed like a heavily sarcastic comment and a massive dig. A smiley always helps avoid misunderstandings A "?" is just what I already expect to see at the end of a question and wasn't really a clue.

One thing that many overseas fans find themselves doing, is religiously staying up to date on everything that goes on back home. Distance only intensifies your need to stay on top of what's going on.

The issue of not going back to watch SPL football is a serious and emotive one facing many Scottish football fans, if Sevco are let off with a div 1 sanction. My answer to this is really what I replied to Falcon above. I wrote "My point was that I think there are people who genuinely have a problem with the apparent corruption which has been very much evident during this whole sorry saga, and that their choice not to go to the football because of that may therefore be considered a valid one, as opposed to more flimsy, transient reasons. I was neither supporting or criticising that decision, just stating that it was a genuine, but hard choice for some folks."

A quick comment on the "committment" point you made; there are many ways in which overseas supporters support the club: subscribing to Hibs TV International, arranging your trips back home to allow for the biggest number of trips to see games at ER, buying merchandise online, getting up at 3am to listen to/watch games online, encouraging others to support the club, getting together to watch games and so on.

Many overseas fans, myself included, travelled many thousands of miles and spent a lot of money to come back for the Cup Final in May - less a glory hunt and more of a "need to be there in our lifetime" response to the deep-rooted support of the club that only often intensifies when you are far from home. In most cases, and it certainly was in mine, people couldn't really afford to do it, but found a way. Fans far away often show a very serious committment to the club, even though they can't buy a season ticket - and some folks even do that, even though they can't go! Overseas fans keep their finger on the pulse and do everything they can to play their part.

[Seveno]

I have every confidence in the SFL clubs to vote so that Sevco will only be offered a place in SFL3. Whether they are in a position to accept the offer is another matter.

Re-structuring will come in season 2013-2014 and I think we'll see the back of Donkey and Regan. The fans and the diddy clubs have flexed their muscles and will do so again.

[Iggy Pope]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Turning your back on the club is one thing.

Turning your back on the club because they play in a league where sporting integrity is non-existant and corruption is blatantly obvious for all to see, is something completely different.

Until Hibs and other clubs make a stance and make it clear that they won't participate in this farce league until things change, I won't be back to Scottish Football either.

Guess i'll "see ya" then.

The bit in bold has yet to be determined, certainly as far as Petrie or Hibs' culpability is concerned, but you hold your principles dear.

[ScottB]

Petrie and the club have stuck to the integrity line throughout, they voted No to the Newco.

What are the clubs thoughts on all this? The line 'it's up to other bodies to decide their fate' is clearly nonsense now, if the SPL Board is involved, then Hibs are involved as part of the SPL.

If Hibs are against these 'negotiations' and haven't been part of this, then they better come out and say so pronto. Silence will do us no favours, certainly if the Board think we will just accept this corrupt attempt to try and appear 'all about the integrity' while working franticly behind the scenes to save Sevco.

[Saorsa]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Petrie and the club have stuck to the integrity line throughout, they voted No to the Newco.

What are the clubs thoughts on all this? The line 'it's up to other bodies to decide their fate' is clearly nonsense now, if the SPL Board is involved, then Hibs are involved as part of the SPL.

If Hibs are against these 'negotiations' and haven't been part of this, then they better come out and say so pronto. Silence will do us no favours, certainly if the Board think we will just accept this corrupt attempt to try and appear 'all about the integrity' while working franticly behind the scenes to save Sevco.

Exactly! Where are all these people who spoke of integrity? Their silence over the threats, bribery and blackmail of the SFL clubs seems tae suggest they're no everything they're cracking themselves up tae be.

[Iggy Pope]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

It totally seemed like a heavily sarcastic comment and a massive dig. Apologies if it wasn't. A smiley always helps avoid misunderstandings A "?" is just what I already expect to see at the end of a question and wasn't really a clue.

One thing that many overseas fans find themselves doing, is religiously staying up to date on everything that goes on back home. I have read every post on this thread, for example (sad but true) and read widely in the papers and online etc. Distance only intensifies your need to stay on top of what's going on.

The issue of not going back to watch SPL football is a serious and emotive one facing many Scottish football fans, if Sevco are let off with a div 1 sanction. My answer to this is really what I replied to Falcon above. I wrote "My point was that I think there are people who genuinely have a problem with the apparent corruption which has been very much evident during this whole sorry saga, and that their choice not to go to the football because of that may therefore be considered a valid one, as opposed to more flimsy, transient reasons. I was neither supporting or criticising that decision, just stating that it was a genuine, but hard choice for some folks."

A quick (and friendly) comment on the "committment" point you made; there are many ways in which overseas supporters support the club: subscribing to Hibs TV International, arranging your trips back home to allow for the biggest number of trips to see games at ER, buying merchandise online, getting up at 3am to listen to/watch games online, encouraging others to support the club, getting together to watch games and so on.

Many overseas fans, myself included, travelled many thousands of miles and spent a lot of money to come back for the Cup Final in May - less a glory hunt and more of a "need to be there in our lifetime" response to the deep-rooted support of the club that only often intensifies when you are far from home. In most cases, and it certainly was in mine, people couldn't really afford to do it, but found a way. Fans far away often show a very serious committment to the club, even though they can't buy a season ticket - and some folks even do that, even though they can't go! Overseas fans keep their finger on the pulse and do everything they can to play their part.

None of which makes me look like an idiot. I admire overseas fans support of the club, I really do, but the real doggedness is with folks who have stuck with it and kept this ****ty side uppermost in their list of priority. And most of them do most of the things you detail in your response, as well as taking endless amounts of flak from those sparryheids that you will doubtless avoid in Sao Paolo (or wherever).
Glad that you keep your eye in from another corner of the globe. 20,000 erses on those seats at ER are an immediate priority however and people straining for excuses never to return leaves an awfy sickly taste in the mouth.