Generic Sevco / Rangers meltdown thread

[CropleyWasGod]

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Fudged up? That's your opinion. The world operates on a mixture pragmatism and compromise for the greater good. I don't know what the best way forward is but I am pretty sure that simpy saying no to everything except one outcome ain't going to help anything.

I'm with you on the pragmatism thing. The debate has been, and still is, muddied by the emotional desire to F the Huns.... and that's understandable, given the real and perceived injustices over the years. However, there is an argument that says "let's stand back and look at things".

Allowing them to start again in D3 gives Scottish football to calm down, look at things rationally over a decent length of time, and sort things out "for the greater good". I agree with you that Rangers will come back, probably stronger.... but that's unavoidable, given their support. The trick is to change things so that they don't have an advantage which is out of kilter with that economic strength.

Allowing them into D1 shortens that time span, and reduces the opportunities.

[Sir David Gray]

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As so many have pointed out, they are a new club. Entering SFL3 is not a punishment, it's a consequence of their actions.
If it's SFL1 then heavy sanctions can be made a condition of entry.

Exactly.

I keep hearing about this new club being put in to the third division as a "punishment".

As you point out, that is not a punishment, it's the correct and only possible outcome for a new club starting life in the football league.

Rangers aren't being punished anymore as they do not exist.

I don't think a lot of people are fully comprehending that. This new club will just happen to be playing at Ibrox, play in blue and white and have Ally McCoist as their new manager.

[CropleyWasGod]

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Exactly.

I keep hearing about this new club being put in to the third division as a "punishment".

As you point out, that is not a punishment, it's the correct and only possible outcome for a new club starting life in the football league.

Rangers aren't being punished anymore as they do not exist.

I don't think a lot of people are fully comprehending that. This new club will just happen to be playing at Ibrox, play in blue and white and have Ally McCoist as their new manager.

TBC

[marinello59]

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I'm with you on the pragmatism thing. The debate has been, and still is, muddied by the emotional desire to F the Huns.... and that's understandable, given the real and perceived injustices over the years. However, there is an argument that says "let's stand back and look at things".

Allowing them to start again in D3 gives Scottish football to calm down, look at things rationally over a decent length of time, and sort things out "for the greater good". I agree with you that Rangers will come back, probably stronger.... but that's unavoidable, given their support. The trick is to change things so that they don't have an advantage which is out of kilter with that economic strength.

Allowing them into D1 shortens that time span, and reduces the opportunities.

Not if it concentrates minds to act quickly. How long has the Mcleish report been out? How many think tanks have we had, none acted on. We should strike while the iron is hot so to speak. IMHO of course.
You may well be right though, the only thing I am sure of is that what happens next is anybody's guess.

[Saorsa]

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Fudged up? That's your opinion. The world operates on a mixture pragmatism and compromise for the greater good. I don't know what the best way forward is but I am pretty sure that simpy saying no to everything except one outcome ain't going to help anything.

That's right and I'm sticking with it. After having follwed the rules that exist and once that club is out the road for 3 years the other bully will be isolated. That gives all the other clubs at the top a chance to move things on tae a more even keel starting by getting rid of ridiculous voting systems that allow certain clubs tae dominate, veto and suck up all the money. They may still have more money because of the size of their support but the rest could be better divvied up and rules made tae suit all. It will also hopefully allow the ridding of the corridors of power of the dinosaurs and OF sycophants that currently inhabit them.

[Hibercelona]

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I don't think a lot of people are fully comprehending that. This new club will just happen to be playing at Ibrox, play in blue and white and have Ally McCoist as their new manager.

If a random club in the highland leagues were to buy Ibrox, start playing in blue and sign Ally McCoist as manager, do people think that it would be alright for them just to jump straight up into the 2nd highest tier of Scottish Football?

Because thats basically whats happening with Sevco. (A new highland league club)

[CropleyWasGod]

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Not if it concentrates minds to act quickly. How long has the Mcleish report been out? How many think tanks have we had, none acted on. We should strike while the iron is hot so to speak. IMHO of course.
You may well be right though, the only thing I am sure of is that what happens next is anybody's guess.

I just think that the danger of acting now is a knee-jerk reaction which, in hindsight, is the wrong one. There is too much emotion around.

Now... I'll let you back to your fight wi Dan

[Saorsa]

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I just think that the danger of acting now is a knee-jerk reaction which, in hindsight, is the wrong one. There is too much emotion around.

Now... I'll let you back to your fight wi Dan

nah, yer awrite, I've completed my last circuit of that particular circle. and I'm of tae the pub

[Seveno]

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TBC

So do you think that they might not be able to afford the rent ?

[CropleyWasGod]

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So do you think that they might not be able to afford the rent ?

good question.

It's noticeable that, amid all the hoo-haa about the votes and stuff, Bomber Brown has yet to have his question answered. It would have been very simple, I would have thought, for CG to have proven his/Seb Coe's ownership of Greyskull.

Cynique, moi?

[bighairyfaeleith]

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Exactly.

I keep hearing about this new club being put in to the third division as a "punishment".

As you point out, that is not a punishment, it's the correct and only possible outcome for a new club starting life in the football league.

Rangers aren't being punished anymore as they do not exist.

I don't think a lot of people are fully comprehending that. This new club will just happen to be playing at Ibrox, play in blue and white and have Ally McCoist as their new manager.

I don't remember any new clubs who haven't even played a competitive match being allowed into div 3 though so actually they are getting a benefit by even getting into div3, so they should still have to agree to sanctions if they want in.

If they want any benefit because they are rangers then they can take the punishments as well, otherwise they should truly start at the bottom and that aint div 3

[Kaiser1962]

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good question.

It's noticeable that, amid all the hoo-haa about the votes and stuff, Bomber Brown has yet to have his question answered. It would have been very simple, I would have thought, for CG to have proven his/Seb Coe's ownership of Greyskull.

Cynique, moi?

And if he can prove he does own the properties do you think the Court of Session will be wanting a wee word with D + P regarding the omission of those same assetts from the EOS?

[CropleyWasGod]

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And if he can prove he does own the properties do you think the Court of Session will be wanting a wee word with D + P regarding the omission of those same assetts from the EOS?

I think the liquidators might want a wee word, if for no other reason than to satisfy themselves that the properties were transferred at market value.

[Sir David Gray]

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I don't remember any new clubs who haven't even played a competitive match being allowed into div 3 though so actually they are getting a benefit by even getting into div3, so they should still have to agree to sanctions if they want in.

If they want any benefit because they are rangers then they can take the punishments as well, otherwise they should truly start at the bottom and that aint div 3

I don't think there is any precedence for this type of thing. I would personally not have a problem if they were granted a place in the SFL, so long as it was the 3rd division.

I don't actually understand why there needs to be any discussions about this.

There is a vacancy in the 3rd division of the SFL, which has been caused by Rangers going out of business and everyone being bumped up a place as a result. All of the clubs who wish to fill this vacancy should apply to the SFL by a certain date.

Once all of the applications have been received, the 29 member clubs will vote on which application is best and which club they wish to accept into the SFL for next season.

It really shouldn't be any more complicated than that.

[Ozyhibby]

Not sure if posted elsewhere but an excellent interview by Steven Pressley.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/scotland/18741679

[Seveno]

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good question.

It's noticeable that, amid all the hoo-haa about the votes and stuff, Bomber Brown has yet to have his question answered. It would have been very simple, I would have thought, for CG to have proven his/Seb Coe's ownership of Greyskull.

Cynique, moi?

If you put your ear to the ground, you might just hear the sound of his backers running for the hills.

I'm sure though that Charlie boy will get his money back by selling Murray park and the lease of the car park, then recovering the rest from the rent of Greyskull to Newco2 over three years.

He may be pretty thick but he's not daft.

[CropleyWasGod]

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If you put your ear to the ground, you might just hear the sound of his backers running for the hills.

I'm sure though that Charlie boy will get his money back by selling Murray park and the lease of the car park, then recovering the rest from the rent of Greyskull to Newco2 over three years.

He may be pretty thick but he's not daft.

Course he's not. IIRC, he still has the get-out clause that allows him to withdraw if RFC aren't playing in all competitions next season. The SFL vote might be the trigger for him.

[Hibercelona]

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If you put your ear to the ground, you might just hear the sound of his backers running for the hills.

I'm sure though that Charlie boy will get his money back by selling Murray park and the lease of the car park, then recovering the rest from the rent of Greyskull to Newco2 over three years.

He may be pretty thick but he's not daft.

Nobody with money is ever truly thick.

Some just like to play dumb.

[marinello59]

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That's right and I'm sticking with it. .

I would be disappointed if you didn't.

[Crazyhorse]

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We're being sold short by the very people who should be selling the value of the product. With Sevco out of the picture for at least a year, I'm hopeful there will be a more exciting league.

Clearly, SFA are more concerned about history than the future.

The Herald article today was excellent: this is not the end of Scottish football. With the right men in charge, making the right decisions, this is a once in a lifetime opportunity to rejig the game and for clubs to be doing an awful lot better than they've been doing in the past.

I think the Belgian example is very instructive. They have not been afraid to make radical changes to what is now their 16 team League and have got their reward with bike hikes in the amounts broadcasters are willing to play. The top 4 clubs all have average attendances in the 20,000's last season and there is real competition for the league. 20 years ago a great old club FC Bruges were getting 12K average crowds last season they got double that.

[Bishop Hibee]

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I'm with you on the pragmatism thing. The debate has been, and still is, muddied by the emotional desire to F the Huns.... and that's understandable, given the real and perceived injustices over the years. However, there is an argument that says "let's stand back and look at things".

Allowing them to start again in D3 gives Scottish football to calm down, look at things rationally over a decent length of time, and sort things out "for the greater good". I agree with you that Rangers will come back, probably stronger.... but that's unavoidable, given their support. The trick is to change things so that they don't have an advantage which is out of kilter with that economic strength.

Allowing them into D1 shortens that time span, and reduces the opportunities.

Very sensible CWG. It would have all been done and dusted if everyone involved in the whole fiasco had agreed to Newco starting in Div 3. As I've posted previously, it is obvious Rangers will come back into the league system in the same way a 'new Hibs' would have eventually if Farmer hadn't saved us. We may have been East of Scotland League but I think Div 3 is realistic and gives time for the merging of governing bodies, fairer distribution of TV money now and in the future, fairer voting system etc.

It's my belief, also posted elsewhere, that a European NFL style league is a certainty further down the line and the OF both have a decent chance of making it though the huns have seriously undermined their chances. Scottish football needs to make sure it can operate in the future without the OF.

[NAE NOOKIE]

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Yes, change because it is needed and not to accomodate cheats. You seem to be adopting the same tunnell visioned approach to this whole thing that our games administrators have done. Used properly this situation could have provided a major impetus to much needed change. Unfortunately our games leaders totally blew it by betting everything on Rangers continuing to exist as before. (Doncaster was in complete denial about the prospect of them actually going in to liquidation.) That was a major betrayal of the Scottish game. It would be just as dumb to imagine that banishing Rangers to SFL3 is going to improve anything. It won't, in three years time they will be back stronger than ever. Their best chance of becoming the same dominant force will be served by starting in SFL3 rather than SFL1. (Don't get me wrong, I want them in SFL3 but it may not be the best solution for the Scottish game. ) Anybody who thinks Rangers are dead is deluded. They will be playing in the same park, in the same strips and enjoying exactly the same financial advantage. Patting ourselves on the backs and basking in the glow of self righteousness that sporting integrity has been served will be a pyrrhic vitory. Every other club will have been punished financially for their misdoings and by the time they are back in the SPL some may be gone. Where is the justice in that? It's all very well saying clubs that don't cut their cloth now deserve to die but contracts and planning were all based on the current level of cash coming in to the game. Scottish football is engaged in that bloodiest of all wars, civil wars. Without pragmatism and compromise we will all be losers. I don't believe the figures we have seen chucked at the SFL clubs for a second but nobody can be in any doubt that finances will be quite a bit tighter without Rangers in the top league. I agree with you about the need strong leaders with a clear vision in place. That vision should cover the whole picture, not just the demands of the Old Firm or the top teams nor the ever changing demands of the mob.

[bighairyfaeleith]

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I don't think there is any precedence for this type of thing. I would personally not have a problem if they were granted a place in the SFL, so long as it was the 3rd division.

I don't actually understand why there needs to be any discussions about this.

There is a vacancy in the 3rd division of the SFL, which has been caused by Rangers going out of business and everyone being bumped up a place as a result. All of the clubs who wish to fill this vacancy should apply to the SFL by a certain date.

Once all of the applications have been received, the 29 member clubs will vote on which application is best and which club they wish to accept into the SFL for next season.

It really shouldn't be any more complicated than that.

I agree they should go into the 3rd, but I don't agree that it's there right. They are being given special consideration getting into the 3rd and the notion that they should get away with everything else because they have chosen the 3rd rather than the 1st really pisses me off.

If they want the 3rd, let them ****ing beg for it

[Sir David Gray]

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I agree they should go into the 3rd, but I don't agree that it's there right. They are being given special consideration getting into the 3rd and the notion that they should get away with everything else because they have chosen the 3rd rather than the 1st really pisses me off.

If they want the 3rd, let them ****ing beg for it

They shouldn't have a right to anything.

If any other club wants to apply for membership of the SFL next season then they should be allowed to do so and then a vote should take place.

[green glory]

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I agree they should go into the 3rd, but I don't agree that it's there right. They are being given special consideration getting into the 3rd and the notion that they should get away with everything else because they have chosen the 3rd rather than the 1st really pisses me off.

If they want the 3rd, let them ****ing beg for it

Correct. Bearing in mind they have no divine right to be chosen over any other club. My vote goes to Spartans.

[Waxy]

Sevco should think themselves lucky that Scotland hasn't already introduced some kind of pyramid system by now.
Way behind the times as usual.

They'd find themselves applying to the west of Scotland league.

Imo a few more levels below div3 is needed.
These teams at the bottom with no ambitions are causing poor standards which must have a ripple effect going up.

Sort it out SFA.

[Lungo--Drom]

The story has now been filed under 'Kilmarnock' on the BBC Sports website so for anyone who hasn't ended themselves looking at this yet here's an updated link:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/18732086

And if you can't get to the link or it stops working here's the photo:

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Anyone who reckons Rod doesn't care about the club should look at the way he dressed for the Chairman's meeting at Hampden the other day:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/scottish-premier

[lapsedhibee]

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Well let's have a heavily sanctioned Hun in SFL3 then! Why not?

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As so many have pointed out, they are a new club. Entering SFL3 is not a punishment, it's a consequence of their actions.
If it's SFL1 then heavy sanctions can be made a condition of entry.

Still not seeing this. You seem to be arguing on the basis of two contradictory beliefs:

(1) They are a new club and therefore cannot be 'punished' (=sanctions) if they play in Div 3

(2) If they play in Div 1 it would be appropriate for them to be 'punished' (=sanctions)

This is illogical captain.

They are either a new club or they're not.

If they're a new club it wouldn't be appropriate to punish (=sanctions) them, whatever division they play in.

If they're not a new club and sanctions are appropriate, then they can be punished (=sanctions) whatever divsion they play in.

The Donkey Pack frenziedly fuzzying all this is a singularly lamentable attempt to ensure that NewhunFC is oot the SPL for as short a time as possible. Aw blaw.

[3pm]

Davis signed for Southampton.

[marinello59]

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Still not seeing this. You seem to be arguing on the basis of two contradictory beliefs:

(1) They are a new club and therefore cannot be 'punished' (=sanctions) if they play in Div 3

(2) If they play in Div 1 it would be appropriate for them to be 'punished' (=sanctions)This is illogical captain.

They are either a new club or they're not.

If they're a new club it wouldn't be appropriate to punish (=sanctions) them, whatever division they play in.

If they're not a new club and sanctions are appropriate, then they can be punished (=sanctions) whatever divsion they play in.

The Donkey Pack frenziedly fuzzying all this a singularly lamentable attempt to ensure that NewhunFC is oot the SPL for as short a time as possible. Aw blaw.

Glad you picked up on that. That's not my argument. There are plenty of others on here saying that they are a totally new club so should start in SFL3. The same people then argue SFL1 would be insufficient punishment for years of cheating. (By the way, there is nothing in the rules stopping a club applying to any division. )
I am accepting the reality of the situation. Whether they are Oldco, Newco, Sevco or Seb Coe they will still be Rangers. Do you seriously think they will be thought of as anything but Rangers in a couple of years? Allowing entry to SFL1 subject to accepting the punishment applicable to the wrongs done by Murray, Whyte and co is a perfectly valid negotiating tool. I am not saying that is wholly desirable, but it may turn out to be the best option. If they are empatically NOT Rangers and go in to SFL3 then they will effectively be escaping any punishment. Three years of low costs and high income will see them stronger than ever. Still, if thats what you want.
Don't mistake me for part of the 'donkey pack.'' The man is a buffoon and should go, his incompetence has caused further damage but those who employ him have more questions to answer. They will be delighted that he is the main fall guy here.