Generic Sevco / Rangers meltdown thread

[Caversham Green]

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Which is the point I was making but not doing a very good job of it .

Not at all - I was supporting your comment rather than disputing it, but not doing a very good job of it.

My 300th post on this thread - I'm off out to look for a life.

[StevieC]

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As I understand it a club applying for entry into the SFL is required to provide business plans and projections - that can only be so that the League can assess its suitability and compare it with other applicants. On that basis Sevco would easily gain admission ahead of Cove, Gala or any other applicant club.

You think?

What would it cost to run Rangers for a season and how much capital does Green have?
Who are Sevco's financial backers?
Who owns the stadium and could this be taken back by the liquidators if D&P are deemed to have acted incorrectly?
How many players do they have signed?
What guarantee can they provide that Green will continue to stay in charge and fund any financial short-falls?
Will FIFA intervene regarding the outstanding football debts?

I would suggest that there are so many unknown quantities that an application from a better run non-league club would actually look better on paper.

[leggeto]

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Aye ... right enough ... one things for sure, admittance to the SFL has got nothing to do with how long a club has waited to get in.

Let me think ... a handfull of clubs with seating for 200 and standing room for 2,000 more, with no prospect of ever growing their fanbase or ever having a hope of changing the demographics of Scottish football.

Lets look at some the clubs who have been admitted recently:

Annan Athetic ....... doing what ?

Peterhead .... what impact have they made ?

Inverness Caledonian Thistle .... most disappointing of all IMO ... there was a club from a town where you were guaranteed a good crowd for Scottish cup ties when it had only Highland league clubs. I thought it was brilliant when ICT joined the league .. heres a club who can be the next Dundee Utd and really bring something to the table was my thinking.

Instead of that they have a rubbish stadium and home crowds of about 4,000.

So lets be realistic .... newco current buns should be a shoe in for SFL membership. Its one thing cutting off your nose to spite you face. Its quite another cutting off your whole bloody head.

Dont ya think ?

fair point,you wont get a club anywhere near the fanbase of the newco but you have to start somewhere, what about lithgie rose better crowds than most for a junior team

[Twa Cairpets]

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Allowing Newco straight back into the SFL without the need for registration could effectively kill the game off for every other club, barr the OF.

I already know a huge number of people who have stated that they won't be back now to watch their teams, regardless of the outcome now.

Rangers won't save the game, they will save it for 2 clubs, while the rest are left to rot because their fanbases have simply had enough of this s***e.

Football is nothing without its fans, no matter how much money is pumped into it.

The game is effectively dead.

I think this is overly melodramatic, at least at the moment.
What appears to be the most likely outcome is that newzombiehun will be in SFL3, and that for me is the just footballing punishment, if not morally appropriate.

What is very encouraging is that despite the clear direction given from one, some or all of the games administrators (yet to be confirmed who) for somwhow fudging a hun-friendly compromise, the outrage from fans at the injustice of it seems likely to have resulted in what the vast majority view as the right outcome.

I don think the game is dead at all. Its in a difficult place, and the ripples of fallout will happen for a long time, but fundamentally football is just too good a game not to find its level.

[joe breezy]

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I think this is overly melodramatic, at least at the moment.
What appears to be the most likely outcome is that newzombiehun will be in SFL3, and that for me is the just footballing punishment, if not morally appropriate.

What is very encouraging is that despite the clear direction given from one, some or all of the games administrators (yet to be confirmed who) for somwhow fudging a hun-friendly compromise, the outrage from fans at the injustice of it seems likely to have resulted in what the vast majority view as the right outcome.

I don think the game is dead at all. Its in a difficult place, and the ripples of fallout will happen for a long time, but fundamentally football is just too good a game not to find its level.

If they get into Division 3 that is not a punishment. it is a consequence of the club being liquidated and them having to start a new one.

Don't want to be pedantic but it's important we don't start using the hunspeak of the media.

[lapsedhibee]

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If they get into Division 3 that is not a punishment. it is a consequence of the club being liquidated and them having to start a new one.

Don't want to be pedantic but it's important we don't start using the hunspeak of the media.

Very good point.

[Twa Cairpets]

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If they get into Division 3 that is not a punishment. it is a consequence of the club being liquidated and them having to start a new one.

Don't want to be pedantic but it's important we don't start using the hunspeak of the media.

I agree - thats why I very specifically said "in footballing terms".

It's not being the slightest an apologist for the Hun (the mere thought makes me want to vomit my own pancreas up), but if the reality of the situation is that (as posted a few pages back) if it looks like a hun and smells like a hun it is likely to be, to all intents and purposes, a hun.

If they relinquish the link with the past from a footballing point of view that is entirely window dressing, if not fun to poke huns with (We've won the Scottish Cup more recently than you is one that springs to mind), but in practical terms it is meaningless. The punishment will be meted out on oldhun. The morality of it is entirely questionable, sure, but the legal side of it (non-footballing) is going through the process it needs to go through. From a football point of view, SFL3 feels about right.

I hasten to add if they were to disappear forever I would lose not a jot of sleep, but dont see that happening.

[jonty]

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If they get into Division 3 that is not a punishment. it is a consequence of the club being liquidated and them having to start a new one.

Don't want to be pedantic but it's important we don't start using the hunspeak of the media.

Correct - I sometimes forget that we're still awaiting the outcomes of EBTs etc

Since theyve gone into administration, I assume that means that oldco wont be chased for the money, but SDM and CW will be pursued by Hector?
And (it's been a while) the BTC was part of the tax dodging in the EBTs?

Is there a list of outstanding charges (and resolved ones) since the start of this mess?

[ScottB]

Yes indeed, this isn't any sort of punishment at all and needs to be stop being thought of that way.

It is deciding how to treat a brand new club.

Now, I can appreciate the point of view that they should start in some Junior league, however as others have said, in practical terms keeping the newco, which in a legal sense is not the same cheating club it has replaced, out of the SFL completely is next to impossible. I'd rather dump them into SFL3 than have them instead try and pull an Airdrie and put some other club to the sword to get back in that way: Rangers wouldn't be content to stay in a Junior set up I suspect! This of course assumes that the SFL clubs choose them, or that any other clubs would apply along with them.

Hopefully the Pyramid system comes in soon and gives those other clubs a chance to get in too.

[Caversham Green]

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You think?

What would it cost to run Rangers for a season and how much capital does Green have?
Who are Sevco's financial backers?
Who owns the stadium and could this be taken back by the liquidators if D&P are deemed to have acted incorrectly?
How many players do they have signed?
What guarantee can they provide that Green will continue to stay in charge and fund any financial short-falls?
Will FIFA intervene regarding the outstanding football debts?

I would suggest that there are so many unknown quantities that an application from a better run non-league club would actually look better on paper.

The point of the business plan is to answer the basic financial questions you ask, but Rangers are guaranteed a much bigger fan base (and therefore income) than any other likely applicant and that in itself would put them at the head of the queue. To answer your questions in order:

The business plan would outline the running costs and source of funds - if it didn't work they wouldn't be admitted - but Green has made no bones about being in this to make money, so you wouldn't expect the business plan to show a shortfall.
Sevco's financial backers would have to be identified as part of the application, same as any other club.
Obviously the club would have to show they had the right to use the stadium either by freehold or lease. If the SFL felt there was a threat of the stadium being reclaimed they would have to seek assurances, but I haven't actually seen anything to suggest this might happen other than speculation on forums like this. Personally I think it's unlikely and a more likely outcome would be D&P being sued for any under-recovery.
I doubt if they would have much difficulty signing SFL3 (or slightly higher) standard players given their name and probable financial clout.
Again, Green is in this for the money - the business plan would show them making money rather than losing it, otherwise he wouldn't be there.
The football debts are with the Oldco - being a new club means the new Rangers have no footballing debts, that's why they should be applying at the bottom end of the league.

Anyway, nice going - you've got me arguing the huns' corner here .

[Northernhibee]

This thread is utter comedy.

http://forum.rangersmedia.co.uk/inde...ic=224820&st=0

All of a sudden the Sevco 'supporters' have dosh to buy (and then cancel) orders on Audis.

Let's face it, those fuds couldn't afford a Domino's pizza takeaway to phone up and cancel, let alone a sports car.

[PatHead]

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This thread is utter comedy.

http://forum.rangersmedia.co.uk/inde...ic=224820&st=0

All of a sudden the Sevco 'supporters' have dosh to buy (and then cancel) orders on Audis.

Let's face it, those fuds couldn't afford a Domino's pizza takeaway to phone up and cancel, let alone a sports car.

Take it that will be Volkswagens/Seats/Skodas as well. Got to remember they are already not buying Vauxhall's due to their association with SFA. If Uefa take sanctions that will be Ford and Hyundia gone. I'm really scared they will bring the whole of Europe down with these threats!

[JeMeSouviens]

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Yes indeed, this isn't any sort of punishment at all and needs to be stop being thought of that way.

It is deciding how to treat a brand new club.

Now, I can appreciate the point of view that they should start in some Junior league, however as others have said, in practical terms keeping the newco, which in a legal sense is not the same cheating club it has replaced, out of the SFL completely is next to impossible. I'd rather dump them into SFL3 than have them instead try and pull an Airdrie and put some other club to the sword to get back in that way: Rangers wouldn't be content to stay in a Junior set up I suspect! This of course assumes that the SFL clubs choose them, or that any other clubs would apply along with them.

Hopefully the Pyramid system comes in soon and gives those other clubs a chance to get in too.

I'd love to see them kept out of Div3, but there is precedent for letting a brand new club in at that level. Inverness CT were formed and immediately admitted to the SFL for economic reasons in 1994.

[pogo]

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Take it that will be Volkswagens/Seats/Skodas as well. Got to remember they are already not buying Vauxhall's due to their association with SFA. If Uefa take sanctions that will be Ford and Hyundia gone. I'm really scared they will bring the whole of Europe down with these threats!

They'll have to do walking away, as there'll be no car manufacturers left that they'll be able to buy!
Will they start refusing taxis if they are any of these brands?
I've got a 2001 Renault Scenic for sale, maybe I should put it up on FF or RM, may get some interest? Or is that on the list as well? Wish they'd do a proper list, updated hourly, so we can keep up!

[jgl07]

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I'd love to see them kept out of Div3, but there is precedent for letting a brand new club in at that level. Inverness CT were formed and immediately admitted to the SFL for economic reasons in 1994.

But they were not a new club. They have the history of Caledonian FC who dated back to 1885. OK they merged with Inverness Thistle who date back to 1893. No Newco there.

[Northernhibee]

Morals and integrity are fine but we must all be sure we can cope with the fall out, which would be considerable.

Clubs will cut right back on numbers as we're already seeing with Hibernian who have just paid off Pat Fenlon's deputy Billy Brown.

Players and wages will be next, although the first real casualty is more likely to be youth development.

Another delightful quote from Jim Traynor.

No mention that BB was out of contract.

Or that we've just signed James McPake.

Or anything to back up his youth development statement.

Or figures about what the size of the fallout would be.

[PatHead]

Are the SFL taking a vote tomorrow or is it just a meeting to discuss Servco?

[jgl07]

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Another delightful quote from Jim Traynor.

No mention that BB was out of contract.

Or that we've just signed James McPake.

Or anything to back up his youth development statement.

Or figures about what the size of the fallout would be.

'Paid off' Billy Brown?

His one year contract ran out and was not renewed. That is hardly the same thing.

[StevieC]

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The point of the business plan is to answer the basic financial questions you ask, but Rangers are guaranteed a much bigger fan base (and therefore income) than any other likely applicant and that in itself would put them at the head of the queue. To answer your questions in order:

The business plan would outline the running costs and source of funds - if it didn't work they wouldn't be admitted - but Green has made no bones about being in this to make money, so you wouldn't expect the business plan to show a shortfall.
Sevco's financial backers would have to be identified as part of the application, same as any other club.
Obviously the club would have to show they had the right to use the stadium either by freehold or lease. If the SFL felt there was a threat of the stadium being reclaimed they would have to seek assurances, but I haven't actually seen anything to suggest this might happen other than speculation on forums like this. Personally I think it's unlikely and a more likely outcome would be D&P being sued for any under-recovery.
I doubt if they would have much difficulty signing SFL3 (or slightly higher) standard players given their name and probable financial clout.
Again, Green is in this for the money - the business plan would show them making money rather than losing it, otherwise he wouldn't be there.
The football debts are with the Oldco - being a new club means the new Rangers have no footballing debts, that's why they should be applying at the bottom end of the league.

Anyway, nice going - you've got me arguing the huns' corner here .

All fair assumptions .. But they are still assumptions.

You are assuming that supporters back Green with season tickets and attending games, nobody knows how many so how can you forecast expected income.

They could sign players but as yet they haven't, so how much will this business plan have set out for player wages?

The debts are with oldco but FIFA intervention on footballing debts might still be possible with NewCo, especially given that they are intending to take footballing credits from Everton.

As I say, any business plan is based on a lot of assumptions rather than actual figures.

And for that reason .. I'm out!

[lapsedhibee]

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Another delightful quote from Jim Traynor.

No mention that BB was out of contract.

Or that we've just signed James McPake.

Or anything to back up his youth development statement.

Or figures about what the size of the fallout would be.

If the BBC are going to continue to spend licencepayers' money on airhead cheerleaders, Shirley they could get people with better thrupennies than Traynor?

[JeMeSouviens]

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But they were not a new club. They have the history of Caledonian FC who dated back to 1885. OK they merged with Inverness Thistle who date back to 1893. No Newco there.

Don't know precisely how the merger happened but there is a new company registered as of 1994:

http://companycheck.co.uk/company/SC149117

[Andy74]

Can this newco sign new players?

They seem to have signed a 20 year old who was out of contract at the old Rangers.

[McSwanky]

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Another delightful quote from Jim Traynor.

No mention that BB was out of contract.

Or that we've just signed James McPake.

Or anything to back up his youth development statement.

Or figures about what the size of the fallout would be.

Just read that entire article. The man is unbelievable. Traynor should take a look at himself and start to realise that he and his ilk are a massive (and I don't mean just physically massive, Jim) part of the problem.

[Northernhibee]

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Just read that entire article. The man is unbelievable. Traynor should take a look at himself and start to realise that he and his ilk are a massive (and I don't mean just physically massive, Jim) part of the problem.

And yet the numpties over on Sevcomedia think he's a **** as he referred to The Rangers as a 'new club' and would like a totally unbiased and fair article in support of them.

The mind boggles.

[jgl07]

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Don't know precisely how the merger happened but there is a new company registered as of 1994:

http://companycheck.co.uk/company/SC149117

Yes but the club as an entity were not new. It was no different from the current Hibs who were formed as a new company by Tom Farmer when he spun the club off from the holding company.

The merger was basically forced by the Enterprise Agency and the SFL who said they not be financed or admitted unless the three Inverness clubs merged (Clachnacuddin later pulled out and stayed in the Highland League).

Caledonian were keen to go it alone in the SFL. I suspect that they would have progressed faster than the merged club did.

[JeMeSouviens]

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Yes but the club as an entity were not new. It was no different from the current Hibs who were formed as a new company by Tom Farmer when he spun the club off from the holding company.

The merger was basically forced by the Enterprise Agency and the SFL who said they not be financed or admitted unless the three Inverness clubs merged (Clachnacuddin later pulled out and stayed in the Highland League).

Caledonian were keen to go it alone in the SFL. I suspect that they would have progressed faster than the merged club did.

I take your point on ICT but you don't want to go around saying things like the above about Hibs in case any Huns are around. It's not true anyway. Hibernian FC is the same company that was incorporated in 1903. Its shares have been owned by other companies including Farmer's holding company but there has never been a Hibs newco!

[degenerated]

good attempt at scare mongering in the daily ****** today, this will be getting cranked up a notch or two on a daily basis i would imagine.

RANGERS are unwanted by clubs in the lower leagues.

But unless one of the three divisions gives them a home in time for the start of next season the SFL itself faces the prospect of going bust.

And the survival of as many as 20 clubs is feared to be hanging in the balance.

Former Rangers manager Walter Smith has publicly voiced his fears for a Scottish game that gives every indication of being in meltdown.

“Everyone is going to start to have a fear now about the very future of Scottish football,” he said at the weekend.

“If Rangers go to the Third Division – or even the First and are not competitive – it’s going to affect the whole of Scottish football in a drastic way.”

But last night the worry for a lot of SFL clubs was what might happen if Rangers aren’t admitted to one of the three leagues outside of the SPL.

The full extent of the chaos within Scottish football was laid bare yesterday by one vastly experienced club official, who requested anonymity in the currently toxic atmosphere which can pollute sensitive issues within the game.

And he put forward the case for and against Rangers being admitted to the SFL in stark financial terms before getting to the emotional argument that has prompted a series of clubs to raise objections to having Ibrox on their fixture list sometime soon.

The club official said: “Each year the SFL receives £1.8million under the terms of the settlement agreement drawn up when the SPL was started up.

“It’s like a divorce settlement and that money works out at roughly £60,000 per SFL club.

“If the payment wasn’t there some clubs could struggle by without it – but others would go to the wall.

“It’s not just Rangers and their supporters who have been affected by the crisis engulfing the game in this country. This goes to the doorstep of all 42 clubs in Scotland.

“That’s why the teams in the SFL have to be pragmatic on this issue. Club 12 in the SPL fixture list is Rangers for the moment but the top-flight clubs will vote no to a newco when they meet at Hampden on Wednesday. Club 12 will then become Dundee unless the SPL goes for the nuclear option. That is to have an 11-team league while Rangers sit it out for a year and come back to ask if they can have a share in the SPL back again.

“It is possible the SPL could decide not to fill the vacancy they would have after Wednesday’s vote to exclude Rangers.

“But they appear to be on a charm offensive to get the SFL to take on Rangers.”

An onlooker might wonder why the lower-league clubs would be resistant to the idea of having the Rangers support swell their income for the season by playing in their division, whichever one it turns out to be.

Particularly when the sum of £60,000 might be enough to tip some of them over the edge if it’s no longer there.

The answer is that the lower orders might be poor but they’re principled, according to the club official with years of experience in the hand-to-mouth business.

He said: “Rangers are regarded as pariahs, or social outcasts if you like. They have flouted every rule and attempted to get away with it while not showing any sign of contrition whatsoever.

“The reality, however, is that we don’t want them but one of our leagues is going to have to take them under sufferance.

“You can understand why clubs like Falkirk, Dunfermline and Morton have raised objections to having them in the First.

“They are paying good money to players and don’t want to see their promotion prospects dashed before a ball is kicked. But there are other clubs who have no pretensions towards promotion. “They simply don’t want the newco to be admitted to their league because they think Rangers have broken too many rules to be acceptable.”

There’s also resentment within the clubs outwith the SPL that the top 12 have collectively ducked their responsibilities and passed them on to somebody else to put up with the inconvenience.

Our insider said: “The SFL clubs feel they’re being bounced into this marriage of convenience. Turnbull Hutton, the Raith Rovers director, said at the weekend that he felt SFL clubs were being blackmailed and bullied into allowing a Rangers newco into the First Division.

“There has also been a veiled threat that if the clubs in the First Division don’t play ball then an SPL 2 will be formed and some of them will get left behind in a way that leaves their very futures in the game uncertain.

“Put it this way, Rangers have become a real problem and the affair has turned the game in general into an absolute mess.

“The SPL are taking their banana skin and throwing it into the SFL’s garden for them to deal with.

“But what guarantee do we have that Rangers could fulfil all of their fixtures in the season ahead? There has been talk of a million pound bond being put up by them against the First Division being thrown into chaos.

“Livingston were asked for £970,000 in bond money when they were in the First Division and facing liquidation.

“But then Livingston were ordered to be relegated to the Third Division and that idea was made redundant.”

All of these matters may or may not be discussed at an SFL meeting that is scheduled to take place tomorrow.

Now it transpires two clubs, Stenhousemuir and Alloa Athletic, think that meeting should be called off and the banana skin thrown back into the SPL’s garden.

The SFL season, meanwhile, kicks off on July 28 with the first round of the Ramsdens Cup and the clock is ticking.

In more ways than one it would seem.

[blackpoolhibs]

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good attempt at scare mongering in the daily ****** today, this will be getting cranked up a notch or two on a daily basis i would imagine.

Exactly, how have they managed to stay afloat without Rangers all this time?

[Twa Cairpets]

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good attempt at scare mongering in the daily ****** today, this will be getting cranked up a notch or two on a daily basis i would imagine.

The article contains direct quotes from Walter Smith. Im assuming this is the same Walter Smith who was cheerleading how greatit would be for Scotland if OldHun went south?

Vile.

[Andy74]

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Exactly, how have they managed to stay afloat without Rangers all this time?

Aye, didn't quite follow that myself.

A quick look at the Sunday papers at my in laws at the weekend just made me feel ill to be honest with the absolute garbage written on this whole thing.