Generic Sevco / Rangers meltdown thread

[speedy_gonzales]

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if you guys want to stop supporting hibs over it then on you go. its you that will be the death of our club if you do so.good luck with that.

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the long and short of it is that if your going to walk away from the club you have apparantley "supported" all your life then good for you.

I've posted very little about this whole situation. I'm just an average fan, not an uber type. I don't hate or loathe anyone or any team, I support Hibs due to family and geography(Pilrig) and wouldn't just walk away from Hibs.

However,

If the authorities or league chiefs do anything that 'allows' Rangers to walk, rejuvenated, back into a league other than the 3rd division I won't be back at Easter Road, or any other ground, what is the point?
I've already paid for next seasons ticket, it will remain at Easter Road unwanted, and no refund will be sought after. Hibs owe me nothing!

Some say the bile, the venom and the knifes are out because it's "Rangers", they are half right, it's because it's "Rangers" that are getting treated differently than so many others that went before them, like others have said, I can't imagine any other side being treated in a similar, favourable, way.

It scares me that I find it this easy to walk away, maybe my version of right-wrong is so clear to me!

[marinello59]

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If the Newco doesn't find a home, how many other SPL clubs would we see going down the tubes through the permanent loss of Huncome?

I reckon

1. Killie
2. St Mirren
3. Motherwell - haven't they been bust already?
   

Stewart Milne is talking tough but the Dons must be pretty close to administration too, despite their recent cost-cutting?

Does it matter to anybody here? Sporting integrity will have been served.

[GreenCastle]

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More analysis of the SFL proposal document.......

http://wingsland.podgamer.com/the-lead-parachute/

The claims about 16 million etc are nonsense

[Jim44]

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They will survive, they just have to cut their cloth. Posts like that don't exactly help the cause of punishing the Huns though!

Your bang on the nail here. Whatever happens to them, there is going to be a complete overhaul in and rationalisation of football club income and expenditure. All clubs (Celtic to a lesser degree) are going to suffer and 'will cut their cloth accordingly'. Wages will drop and the clubs that do best will be those who can wheel and deal on a very low budget. Only one thing is certain - Rangers and Celtic will still be streets ahead in every department.

[ginger_rice]

Just heard a spokesperson (chairman?) for Stenhousemuir on Central FM stating that there would be no benefit for his club being in the same division as Newco FC I didn't catch it all but it appeared to be something to do with the added income being balanced out by extra expenditure in hosting them at Ochilview.

Not quite sure where he is coming from, as I'd no idea there was an alternative plan to parachute them into SFL2!!

Has me wondering though, if this is the view of SFL2 and SFL3 teams, then it could be that they will get voted into SFL1 after all.

[Newry Hibs]

It's quite possible that any club could be relegated (in 'normal' previous years excluding OF) and survive. One argument put forward by Hun apologists was this very point and someone (on a radio show I think) asked when was the last club that went bust after it got relegated.

[Sylar]

If any club fails to adapt accordingly to the loss of the Rangers income, hell mend them

[Part/Time Supporter]

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Just heard a spokesperson (chairman?) for Stenhousemuir on Central FM stating that there would be no benefit for his club being in the same division as Newco FC I didn't catch it all but it appeared to be something to do with the added income being balanced out by extra expenditure in hosting them at Ochilview.

Not quite sure where he is coming from, as I'd no idea there was an alternative plan to parachute them into SFL2!!

Has me wondering though, if this is the view of SFL2 and SFL3 teams, then it could be that they will get voted into SFL1 after all.

If those teams perceive no financial benefit from the plan they will probably vote against it because they are being exposed to relegation from SFL3 to non-league.

[JohnStephens91]

Annan Athletic, Elgin City and Stirling Albion have all replied to my e-mail I sent to all 30 SFL clubs. The Annan chairman gave the most cohesive response:

Last night we held a meeting at our club, I cannot share the output with you as I'd prefer to share that, in the first instance, with the other 29 SFL clubs on Tuesday at Hampden. What I will say however is I have deep admiration for the resolve shown by the fans that are looking for sporting integrity to be achieved.

Hopefully we can all keep the pressure up on the fight for integrity, it is better than rolling over and accepting defeat.

[JeMeSouviens]

Edit: Newry Hibs beat me to it.

[Twa Cairpets]

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Im hoping someone on here can shed some light on this for me, as it has me baffled. Now i dont want anyone having a go at me, ive explained myself and my reasons already and no matter what, my season tickets will be paid as normal. Well, they would have been...
Me and the old boy decided at the tail end of last season, it was time for a move. Weve sat in MFP for 21 seasons, times have changed, and we want to see our success from a different viewpoint. I want to stay in the main stand, just nearere the centre, or towards the copland. Anyway, phone up the ticket office and explained the situation to the guy, he explained that this season theyre notntaking requests to move seat, and you can only apply when they go on public sale. "whys that" i asked him, "i have no idea" was the reply. Anyone know why this is? With the greatest of respect to anyone hoping to become a new season ticket holder this year, and believe me we'll need every one of you, surely my loyalty should count for something. Not including the extra tickets, away games etc, 21 seasons x 2 season tickets is a fair whack. Have i not earned the right to atleast get first refusal? I couldnt even get a request put on my account, the guy hung up on me when i told him that was the f****** stupidest thing ive ever heard, and i dont blame him to be fair. But can anyone shed any light on this? Anyone help out? Or, even, anyone giving up 2 tickets in said area?
I know we've plenty more important things to worry about just now and i wont make a big issue of it, but i want beltin seats!

Dont worry son, you'll have your pick of the seats when Annan Athletic and East Stirling come calling

[The Harp Awakes]

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and more analysis....................

http://scotslawthoughts.wordpress.co...ies/#more-1353

So many people picking holes in it now.

A really interesting angle on the SFL proposal, which pretty much leaves the document in tatters.

One of the most significant points for me is the possibility that the proposal breaches the Bribery Act 2010. Did some training on this Act recently and I can see where the writer is coming from.

[HibbySpurs]

BEING A DIRECTOR:

Whilst we're busy villifying and deriding the board of Hibs & other clubs for apparently pandering to allowing TRFC into SFL1, I'd just like to point out (out of common interest) the real dilema these people are now in with regards to the current situation: I have pasted a brief summary of the main legal & statutory duties of a director of any Ltd or Plc in the UK (obviously this applies to all football clubs registered with companies house):

Main Legal / Statutory Duties

Some of the key legal responsibilities you will have as a company director include:

- You must complete and submit your Annual Return (Form AR01) to Companies House each year.
- You must inform Companies House if any of your company or personnel details change at any time (e.g. changes to address / name / share capital). You can submit most of these changes online via WebFiling.
- Your company must abide by all prevailing employment, health & safety, and company laws and regulations.
- You must always act in the best interests of your shareholders.
- The company directors must not enrich themselves to the detriment of the company.

You will note I have underlined and put in bold the second bottom duty as I think this is the real dilema they now face, the obligation is NOT to the businesses customers but to it's shareholders and to me this means that the director must secure the business as a viable entity therby protecting the shareholders investments in that entity.

Boards of SPL clubs therefore (IMVHO) are really stuck between a rock and a hard place here:

1. Kick TRFC to SFL3 and there are major financial ramifications which could cause the business to become insolvent and they have therefore failed in this duty.
2. Have TRFC placed in SFL1 and run the risk of alienating the fans (customers) which could have serious consequences financially as well and again possible insovency and again they've failed in this duty.

This situation is lose/lose for the directors of clubs as they cant on the face of it balance their legal obligation as a business with that of being a football club whose life blood is it's supporters?

My personal opinion is that these guys are desperately trying to balance these duties but are struggling to do so.

The above are just thoughts and not necessarily correct (legally) nor does it mean I support TRFC being placed in SFL1 (said that before).

Anyone else have any thoughts on this?

[hibs0666]

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If the Newco doesn't find a home, how many other SPL clubs would we see going down the tubes through the permanent loss of Huncome?

I reckon

1. Killie
2. St Mirren
3. Motherwell - haven't they been bust already?
   

Stewart Milne is talking tough but the Dons must be pretty close to administration too, despite their recent cost-cutting?

The issue is the model by which Scottish football clubs have run themselves over the past 20 years has all of a sudden become unsustainable. The SFL document shows a desperate desire to cling onto that old model but it is unlikely to work. We are now firmly in the social media era and clubs now need to work with, rather than talk at, their customers. If clubs embrace a new model of working then they have a fighting chance of thriving. Failure to adapt will most definitely see clubs disappear.

[ginger_rice]

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Annan Athletic, Elgin City and Stirling Albion have all replied to my e-mail I sent to all 30 SFL clubs. The Annan chairman gave the most cohesive response:



Hopefully we can all keep the pressure up on the fight for integrity, it is better than rolling over and accepting defeat.

I'm a part owner of Stirling Albion wonder if that will give me a say

[HotJumBalaya]

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If the Newco doesn't find a home, how many other SPL clubs would we see going down the tubes through the permanent loss of Huncome?

I reckon

1. Killie
2. St Mirren
3. Motherwell - haven't they been bust already?

Stewart Milne is talking tough but the Dons must be pretty close to administration too, despite their recent cost-cutting?

Undoubtedly all teams will be finiancially affected, but on the upside with the reduced budgets there will hopefully be more home grown tallent at ours and other scottish clubs. So maybe that will cause an upturn in our national sides fortunes....once harry potter gets his marching orders of course.

[carnoustiehibee]

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Hopefully we can all keep the pressure up on the fight for integrity, it is better than rolling over and accepting defeat.

The annoying thing is the fans and other clubs shouldn't have to fight for the integrity of Scottish football, the fact that we've all had to shows how corrupt it is in the first place.

[Twa Cairpets]

Just in case you ever feel any sympathy towards the plight of the Hun, more from that repository of wit, repartee and wisdom that is Rangers Media Bear's Den.

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Yeah **** these rotten *******s but are people seriously just wanting the 3rd division to watch Scottish football fall apart? I agree it is the right thing to do, work our way up from the bottom but lets face it, they can't afford to put us there so I say we accept it, then the quicker we can get back to where we belong, the very top. And gloat over those taig ****s with the knowledge the 2 titles they won mean **** all.

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for once in my life the tarriers aren't the most important enemy we have

once we have danced on the grave of the diddy clubs then we can focus on the beggars. But as we have seen recently the combined diddy clubs are a bigger threat to us than that mob

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...Scottish football needs us, end of story. And as much as I would laugh if several of the Diddy clubs went to the wall, I take greater pleasure in ****ing them on the pitch like we always do

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I think we should just accept div1 and ignore the diddys in the passing as we collect number 55. UNLESS, they come up with a typical taig-like sanction ie stripping titles. Which I must admit is a very real possibility, hence this 'waive the right to appeal' pish

On the other hand I have some hope Mr Green will be able to work so we come away with a fine or something, which quite frankly is worth it if it means only waiting a year to get a shot at all those ****my *******s in the SPL

[Twa Cairpets]

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[B][U]
...Boards of SPL clubs therefore (IMVHO) are really stuck between a rock and a hard place here:

1. Kick TRFC to SFL3 and there are major financial ramifications which could cause the business to become insolvent and they have therefore failed in this duty.
2. Have TRFC placed in SFL1 and run the risk of alienating the fans (customers) which could have serious consequences financially as well and again possible insovency and again they've failed in this duty.

This situation is lose/lose for the directors of clubs as they cant on the face of it balance their legal obligation as a business with that of being a football club whose life blood is it's supporters?

Even it comes down to straight maths, the sum is simple. Very short term gain < catastrophic long term loss and demise.
If acting on behalf of the shareholders results in the choice between potential short term difficulties and the certain death of the club in 2-3 years, then its not a difficult decision

[JimBHibees]

Maybe this supposed proposal is known by the SPL clubs to be certain to fail so that they can say to the more educated simpletons at Ibrox (well the three of them anyway ) that at least they tried to get them back to SPL as quick as possible. An attempt at appeasement of the hordes.

[Caversham Green]

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BEING A DIRECTOR:

Whilst we're busy villifying and deriding the board of Hibs & other clubs for apparently pandering to allowing TRFC into SFL1, I'd just like to point out (out of common interest) the real dilema these people are now in with regards to the current situation: I have pasted a brief summary of the main legal & statutory duties of a director of any Ltd or Plc in the UK (obviously this applies to all football clubs registered with companies house):

Main Legal / Statutory Duties

Some of the key legal responsibilities you will have as a company director include:

- You must complete and submit your Annual Return (Form AR01) to Companies House each year.
- You must inform Companies House if any of your company or personnel details change at any time (e.g. changes to address / name / share capital). You can submit most of these changes online via WebFiling.
- Your company must abide by all prevailing employment, health & safety, and company laws and regulations.
- You must always act in the best interests of your shareholders.
- The company directors must not enrich themselves to the detriment of the company.

You will note I have underlined and put in bold the second bottom duty as I think this is the real dilema they now face, the obligation is NOT to the businesses customers but to it's shareholders and to me this means that the director must secure the business as a viable entity therby protecting the shareholders investments in that entity.

Boards of SPL clubs therefore (IMVHO) are really stuck between a rock and a hard place here:

1. Kick TRFC to SFL3 and there are major financial ramifications which could cause the business to become insolvent and they have therefore failed in this duty.
2. Have TRFC placed in SFL1 and run the risk of alienating the fans (customers) which could have serious consequences financially as well and again possible insovency and again they've failed in this duty.

This situation is lose/lose for the directors of clubs as they cant on the face of it balance their legal obligation as a business with that of being a football club whose life blood is it's supporters?

My personal opinion is that these guys are desperately trying to balance these duties but are struggling to do so.

The above are just thoughts and not necessarily correct (legally) nor does it mean I support TRFC being placed in SFL1 (said that before).

Anyone else have any thoughts on this?

It does seem like a dilemma, but when you consider it in more detail it becomes clearer (IMHO of course).

The best interests of the shareholders are not always financial. That is particularly so in an environment like Scottish football, where very few club shareholders are interested in making any financial gains out of their 'investment'. Their motives are generally emotional - they simply want to see their football club be the best it can possibly be and that costs money rather than making it. On top of that in the vast majority of clubs the directors are usually the shareholders as well, or if they aren't they are under the direct control of the majority shareholders (as in the case of Hibs and Hearts) so they are bound to act in their own best interests, whatever those may be.

Finally, a claim for a breach of that regulation could only be brought by the shareholders and I doubt if there's a club in Scotland where the shareholders would raise such a claim for the reasons given above.

The directors undoubtedly do have a real problem on their hands, particularly if the loss of revenues as a result of Rangers' demise threatens the future of their own club, but they also need to recognise that bending to RFC's will could
destroy their core support and hack off some of the same shareholders whose interests they are supposed to be looking after. Once they recognise that damage will be done either way they might as well do the right thing.

[cabbageandribs1875]

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I notice from the Poll at the top of this thread that the poster known as 'Blueisthecolour' has cast his vote

and then there were two

[JohnStephens91]

Dear whom it may concern,

I could not find a specific contact but I am very worried at the corruption hiding in plain sight in Scottish football. Rangers were recently liquidated and there has of course been a great deal of bending of rules to accommodate a club who had cheated their way to success.

Other Scottish teams such as Livingston and Gretna fell foul of the same financial plight as Rangers FC and were punished in accordance to the rules. Now the same rules do not apparently apply to Rangers and their new company (Newco) who will only be relegated one division below.

Smaller clubs are being threatened with not being allowed into a new league which will be formed if the proposals are not accepted, and these are coming from high ranking officials in the Scottish game. Fans of all other 41 SPL and SFL clubs fear for future of the game in the Scotland if the Newco are not punished suitably.

Will UEFA be leading an investigation into this corruption that is rife throughout the Scottish game as one club is receiving preferential treatment over all of the other clubs in the Scottish game.

Yours sincerely,
John Stephens

Hopefully I am not the only one attempting to put any kind of pressure on any of the ridiculous proposals being put forward.

[Part/Time Supporter]

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It does seem like a dilemma, but when you consider it in more detail it becomes clearer (IMHO of course).

The best interests of the shareholders are not always financial. That is particularly so in an environment like Scottish football, where very few club shareholders are interested in making any financial gains out of their 'investment'. Their motives are generally emotional - they simply want to see their football club be the best it can possibly be and that costs money rather than making it. On top of that in the vast majority of clubs the directors are usually the shareholders as well, or if they aren't they are under the direct control of the majority shareholders (as in the case of Hibs and Hearts) so they are bound to act in their own best interests, whatever those may be.

Finally, a claim for a breach of that regulation could only be brought by the shareholders and I doubt if there's a club in Scotland where the shareholders would raise such a claim for the reasons given above.

The directors undoubtedly do have a real problem on their hands, particularly if the loss of revenues as a result of Rangers' demise threatens the future of their own club, but they also need to recognise that bending to RFC's will could destroy their core support and hack off some of the same shareholders whose interests they are supposed to be looking after. Once they recognise that damage will be done either way they might as well do the right thing.

One of the minority shareholders in Aberdeen said he would call for a club EGM if Milne voted for newco.

[JohnStephens91]

My e-mail to FIFA,

Dear Fifa officials,

I am seriously concerned for the vitality of the game in Scotland due to the fiasco and constant rule bending to accommodate a new company (Newco) and after the death of Rangers Football Club.

Neil Doncaster, head of the SPL and several SFA officials have issued a threat to SFL clubs indicating that they accept proposals to allow Newco to join the First Division as opposed to the Third Division, the bottom tier of Scottish football. Gretna and Livingston were relegated this far down due to their financial problems, however Newco Rangers will not be.

Fans of every Scottish team have seen scaremongering tactics resonating from the very top of our football ladder and have also seen rules being broken to make sure that Newco Rangers have a soft landing. This amounts to cheating and I have no doubt it is also corruption as other clubs are being blackmailed by high ranking officials.

I can only hope that Fifa will have a look at this as fans of all the 41 teams in the SPL and SFL believe that something should be done.

Yours sincerely,
John Stephens

Anyone got any other suggestions for who to contact?

[joe breezy]

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Hopefully I am not the only one attempting to put any kind of pressure on any of the ridiculous proposals being put forward.

I'll send a similar email - thanks for the template

[joe breezy]

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My e-mail to FIFA,



Anyone got any other suggestions for who to contact?

They had a financial fair play guy called Declan so he would have been ideal but he's resigned now.

[JohnStephens91]

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I'll send a similar email - thanks for the template

My sheer rage is driving me through all of this, feel free to get equally as angry!

[Caversham Green]

If Scottish football has been depending on an institutionally corrupt club like Rangers for survival then it deserves to perish.

The authorities recognised three years ago that the game had problems, spent time and money on the McLeish report and then proceeded to do absolutely sod all until Rangers got found out. Then they still did sod all until it was nearly too late and now they're running around like blue-arsed chickens finding new ways to do and say exactly the wrong things.

The fundamental changes the game needs is now being forced upon them and if that destroys some clubs so be it - harsh on the individual clubs, but the hardest-learned lessons are the best-remembered.

Scottish football needs to be re-invented - rip it up and start again.

[HibbySpurs]

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Even it comes down to straight maths, the sum is simple. Very short term gain < catastrophic long term loss and demise.
If acting on behalf of the shareholders results in the choice between potential short term difficulties and the certain death of the club in 2-3 years, then its not a difficult decision

Agree that surely the "long term" business point of view has to be the decisive factor and therefore your statement is correct.
I just think that club directors are trying to forage around and find an answer that tries to do everything all at once. I think that is an impossible ask and no matter what happens they are going to have some serious issues to address when the fallout from this occurs.

In the case of the Hibs board I do sympathise to a degree. Our club has been well run as a business with it's long term security paramount in the boards strategy. Sadly this has led to a short term (hopefully) decline in the actual product offered to it's customers. I think it's a tad unfair that now these guys are being faced with this horrible dilema through no real fault of their own.

I wouldnt want to be in their shoes right now for all the tea in China, in fact I think I'd rather be CEO of Barclays Bank (then again....)

As a supporter of football I want TRFC placed in the very bottom tier of Scottish football but I can see the dilema this causes ours (& other boards) in terms of securing their clubs long term financial viability and therefore being able to discharge their duties as company directors.

Still want them papped into SFL3 mind but can see the problems this is causing the clubs.