Generic Sevco / Rangers meltdown thread

[Derek Dougan]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

In the same token, Dundee did not win promotion so THAT should stand.

Kind of agree with the other posters point re Dundee and being in administration twice.

Dunfy to stay up for me.

Would it then not be better to have an 11 team league? Free week when the clubs are due to play "club 12". No relegation. Would we see better football from all teams with the threat of relegation taken away?

[Sylar]

From the SPL Rules:

Club ceasing to play and be a member of the League:


H5 If any Club in the League ceases to operate or to be member of the League for any reason, its playing record in the League may be expunged and the number of relegation places from the League shall be reduced accordingly.

[Andy74]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Is there an actual rule you can link me to, be it part of the SPL rulebook or a news article?

Not being bitchy with the above, but I've see nothing which suggests this myself and I'd be curious to read said rule.

I'd also be interested to read when any such rule was implemented, as it certainly never used to be the case.

Don't know whwere to find them, someone quoted them on here at some stage and so I take that to be the truth obviously.

[jgl07]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

From the SPL Rules:

Club ceasing to play and be a member of the League:

H5 If any Club in the League ceases to operate or to be member of the League for any reason, its playing record in the League may be expunged and the number of relegation places from the League shall be reduced accordingly.

That would have been the case if Rangers folded before the end of the season. They did not.

Another rule applies if they go after the end of the season. The opinion was that the second placed team in Division One.

Selective quoting of the rules to back up your anti Dundee agenda is fooling no-one.

[Sylar]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

That would have been the case if Rangers folded before the end of the season. They did not.

Another rule applies if they go after the end of the season. The opinion was that the second placed team in Division One.

Selective quoting of the rules to back up your anti Dundee agenda is fooling no-one.

Having read the relevant section over twice now, I fail to see anything which stipulates a difference between during and post-season.

And which is it - an opinion or a rule?

[sadtom]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

They will always have a big fanbase and always generate more money. As soon as they get back to the SPL it will be a two horse race again. If they manage to save some cash and come back stronger then it's only really going to be Celtic that it affects. However, especially if Green stays in charge, I suspect that any extra cash that they bring in during this time will end up in the pockets of the "investors".
In the meantime though, we have an opportunity to shake up the league, distribute wealth more evenly and generally have a bit of fun while they're away.

Division 3 is fine.

I dont think that 'stuck on'. When they were pants before their gates were dismal.
No top quality players on show, being paid dodgy money, means success is less likely. No success = no more wandering heards of Orcs and assorted mutants travelling the lenghth and bredth of the country to hand over their giros to watch unsuccessful guff every week. The evidence that der hun are 'fair weather' already exists.
Without artificial backing its terminal decline for the sticky buns i reckon.
Where has 'blue is the colour gone to these days?"

[Crazyhorse]

I suppose the argument would be that the olds hun team did complete the league season and season 2011-12 ended with DAFC relegated.

I would have liked to have seen Dunfy stay up but I can see the rationale for Dundee being promoted instead.

Haven't posted on this thread before but now that it looks like the clubs are going to do the right thing I feel I should state my support for Petrie and the board throughout this saga. They have in my view taken a consistent and principled positon which I reckon has had a big influence on other clubs despite him not spouting headline grabbing quotes.

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

From the SPL Rules:

Club ceasing to play and be a member of the League:


H5 If any Club in the League ceases to operate or to be member of the League for any reason, its playing record in the League may be expunged and the number of relegation places from the League shall be reduced accordingly.

[s.a.m]

Worrying bit of back-pedalling here:

Keith Downie‏@STVkeithAberdeen Chariman Stewart Milne says that contracry to reports, Aberdeen have still to make a decision on Rangers newco in SPL.

[MB62]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

It's always going to difficult to say whether the team who has proven that they lost their place or the one that didn't quite reach the automatic right to get the invite should win out.

However, the rules are currently that Dundee would get the invite.
If a team had gone bust during the season then Dunfermline would have stayed up.

wasn't aware of that Andy, didn't know there was rules already in place.

Not overly bothered one way or the other, Dunfy is always a better day probably.

[green glory]

http://www.newstatesman.com/lifestyl...ile-rangers-fc

[neilmartinrocks]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

I suppose the argument would be that the olds hun team did complete the league season and season 2011-12 ended with DAFC relegated.

I would have liked to have seen Dunfy stay up but I can see the rationale for Dundee being promoted instead.

Haven't posted on this thread before but now that it looks like the clubs are going to do the right thing I feel I should state my support for Petrie and the board throughout this saga. They have in my view taken a consistent and principled positon which I reckon has had a big influence on other clubs despite him not spouting headline grabbing quotes.

makes ye proud to be a hibee.
as for the vacant spot Dundee for me. 2 derbies v's united and saints and Dunfy get 2 v's Raith and Cowdenbeath and although its not a real derby Falkirk.

[green glory]

Har Har!

https://twitter.com/bbcallamont/stat...20253216862208

[Sylar]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

That would have been the case if Rangers folded before the end of the season. They did not.

Another rule applies if they go after the end of the season. The opinion was that the second placed team in Division One.

Selective quoting of the rules to back up your anti Dundee agenda is fooling no-one.

Here is the rule which address the issue of promotion and relegation - the bit I've linked above is a Miscellaneous addition to address the issue of membership being ceased for any reason (including liquidation). Combine the 2, and none of Sevco, Dundee or Dunfermline have any right to be in the SPL.

"The association football clubs eligible to participate in the League in any Season shall, subject to the Articles of Association and Rules, be those Clubs which participated in the League in the immediately preceding Season, except that, subject to Rules A2.2, A2.3 and A2.4, the Club finishing in last place in the League in the immediately preceding Season shall not be eligible to participate in the League and shall be relegated to the SFL and the Candidate Club shall be promoted from the SFL and admitted entry to the League."

So correctly, Dunfermline were relegated from the SPL and the Candidate Club (Ross County) have been promoted in their stead.

Dundee are no more eligible than Dunfermline in claiming right to the SPL as they neither played in the league in the preceeding season nor are they the Candidate Club.

There really is no precedent in the SPL rules for this situation to be honest!

[Malthibby]

Apologies if already posted but Herald suggesing folk buying Rankers season tickets are finding their cash is going to the Oldco, meaning it can
be accessed by the creditors & won't be helping the new lot.
Please let it be true.
GG

[Sylar]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Apologies if already posted but Herald suggesing folk buying Rankers season tickets are finding their cash is going to the Oldco, meaning it can
be accessed by the creditors & won't be helping the new lot.
Please let it be true.
GG

Such a rumour was doing the rounds yesterday. The NewCo can't get a bank to take them on just now so the suggestion is that the money is defaulting back to Rangers FC. I'm not sure of the ins and outs as to how this works mind you, but the Bears certainly weren't happy about it.

The suggestion was that with the ST investment money going into the OldCo (and thus going to the creditors), no investors coming forward (this was before the £11m bid was announced right enough...) and the NewCo being unable to raise working capital through bank loans, that administration of the NewCo was highly possible.

So many rumours and stories doing the rounds though, that it becomes difficult to separate the truth from fiction!

[down-the-slope]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Worrying bit of back-pedalling here:

Keith Downie‏@STVkeithAberdeen Chariman Stewart Milne says that contracry to reports, Aberdeen have still to make a decision on Rangers newco in SPL.

BBooooooooooooooooooooo

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Har Har!

https://twitter.com/bbcallamont/stat...20253216862208

Nice

[Caversham Green]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

From the SPL Rules:

Club ceasing to play and be a member of the League:


H5 If any Club in the League ceases to operate or to be member of the League for any reason, its playing record in the League may be expunged and the number of relegation places from the League shall be reduced accordingly.

Rule A2.1 says

the Club finishing in last place in the League in the immediately preceding Season shall not be eligible to participate in the League

so now that 2011-2012 is over that would suggest that Dunfy are not eligible for season 2012-2013.

I think the Articles rather than the rules would kick in and the old version that I have say that the board can consent to a transfer of a share (presumably where the transferor is willing) or they can order the transfer to their nominee following a qualified resolution (90% or 11-1). That has now been changed to a vote by all the clubs, but on the face of it there doesn't appear to be any automatic candidate. On a strict interpretation of Rule A2.1 though (and other similar wording in both the Articles and the rules) Dunfermline are specifically not eligible.

[down-the-slope]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Such a rumour was doing the rounds yesterday. The NewCo can't get a bank to take them on just now so the suggestion is that the money is defaulting back to Rangers FC. I'm not sure of the ins and outs as to how this works mind you, but the Bears certainly weren't happy about it.

The suggestion was that with the ST investment money going into the OldCo (and thus going to the creditors), no investors coming forward (this was before the £11m bid was announced right enough...) and the NewCo being unable to raise working capital through bank loans, that administration of the NewCo was highly possible.

So many rumours and stories doing the rounds though, that it becomes difficult to separate the truth from fiction!

but look at the hours and hours fun and 13000+ posts we have had trying

[Sylar]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Rule A2.1 says so now that 2011-2012 is over that would suggest that Dunfy are not eligible for season 2012-2013.

I think the Articles rather than the rules would kick in and the old version that I have say that the board can consent to a transfer of a share (presumably where the transferor is willing) or they can order the transfer to their nominee following a qualified resolution (90% or 11-1). That has now been changed to a vote by all the clubs, but on the face of it there doesn't appear to be any automatic candidate. On a strict interpretation of Rule A2.1 though (and other similar wording in both the Articles and the rules) Dunfermline are specifically not eligible.

You can read it either way though - Dundee are equally ineligible because they were neither the Candidate Club nor participated in the league the year beforehand.

There is no easy answer really!

[H18sry]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/foo...ket-money.html

[lapsedhibee]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/foo...ket-money.html

Notice he does not promise that ST money will be used for any specific purpose, just when it will be used (or more precisely when it will not be used).

"I can reassure all fans that season ticket money will be ring-fenced in a secure account and will not be used before the current issues surrounding the club, such as what league we will be playing in, are resolved."

Spiv.

[Caversham Green]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Apologies if already posted but Herald suggesing folk buying Rankers season tickets are finding their cash is going to the Oldco, meaning it can
be accessed by the creditors & won't be helping the new lot.
Please let it be true.
GG

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Such a rumour was doing the rounds yesterday. The NewCo can't get a bank to take them on just now so the suggestion is that the money is defaulting back to Rangers FC. I'm not sure of the ins and outs as to how this works mind you, but the Bears certainly weren't happy about it.

The suggestion was that with the ST investment money going into the OldCo (and thus going to the creditors), no investors coming forward (this was before the £11m bid was announced right enough...) and the NewCo being unable to raise working capital through bank loans, that administration of the NewCo was highly possible.

So many rumours and stories doing the rounds though, that it becomes difficult to separate the truth from fiction!

I suspect if that's true the money would be going into the solicitor's account that was set up to recive post-administration income if the CVA had been agreed. That means it won't be available for the liquidators, but on the other hand D&P can't do anything with it because they're not acting for Sevco.

As an aside I think D&P would be acting unethically if they take part in any vote in relation to the SPL or Scottish football in general. Their client - the soon-to-be-dead Rangers FC can no longer participate in Scottish football and D&P are not equipped to judge what is in Scottish football's best interests. Rangers FC is now irrelevant and they should abstain from any vote.

[Caversham Green]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

You can read it either way though - Dundee are equally ineligible because they were neither the Candidate Club nor participated in the league the year beforehand.

There is no easy answer really!

No, but the transfer to them can be approved under the articles - they are not specifically ineligible in the way that Dunfermline are. In fact on a strict reading of the rules/Articles Dunfermline are the only football club in Scotland that can't participate in the SPL, because the other requirements can be waived.

[Sylar]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

No, but the transfer to them can be approved under the articles - they are not specifically ineligible in the way that Dunfermline are. In fact on a strict reading of the rules/Articles Dunfermline are the only football club in Scotland that can't participate in the SPL, because the other requirements can be waived.

Interesting.

Cheers CG - happy to be corrected

[Caversham Green]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Interesting.

Cheers CG - happy to be corrected

It's all just my opinion though, it could work out differently.

[Saorsa]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Some hun:

brainless twits all yous fans of football want to see the Scottish game die yous are going the right way about it cowards we have kept your teams going for years now the knifes are out to stab us in the back!!!

and meanwhile back on this planet.....

[greenginger]

http://local.stv.tv/glasgow/107524-r...dministrators/


Duff and Phelps might be getting their collars felt by other Boys in Blue.


And not before time.

[Jim44]

Some hun:

brainless twits all yous fans of football want to see the Scottish game die yous are going the right way about it cowards we have kept your teams going for years now the knifes are out to stab us in the back!!!


I object to the 'knives in the back' bit. I think it's a transparent full frontal attack on a guilty, well deserving victim.

[IWasThere2016]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

My opinion on the unlikelihood of it being Dundee and my dislike for them aren't linked.

The point is that the SPL have in the past set a precedent by saving clubs from relegation rather than rewarding second place in the First Division.

I find it quite laughable that you've been very cheerily vocal on the demise of Rangers, yet give your support/backing (call it what you will) to a club who have shafted many small businesses and employees across the Tayside region

What DFC did in the past was wrong but it is in the past ala Livi, Airdire, Livi etc .. Looking forward, Dundee up is the correct decision.

[Saorsa]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Some hun:

brainless twits all yous fans of football want to see the Scottish game die yous are going the right way about it cowards we have kept your teams going for years now the knifes are out to stab us in the back!!!

So that's why they stole all that money, it wisnae for themselves, it was tae keep every else going. Wasn't that kind of them

Now look at all the trouble they are in for helping us all out, shame