Generic Sevco / Rangers meltdown thread

[Offside Trap]

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On BBC today

Rangers: Talks planned to discuss players' futures


Manager Ally McCoist and chief executive Charles Green will meet with members of the Rangers playing squad next week to discuss their futures.
Green's consortium moved the club's assets to a new firm and it believes player contracts can also be switched.
But legal and union opinion suggests players have the right not to be contracted to the new company.
Green said: "Alistair and I will be sitting down with them and explaining where we are."
Continue reading the main story

“As far as we are concerned, all the contracts transferred”

Charles Green Rangers chief executive

The squad are contracted to Rangers Football Club plc, which is soon to be liquidated, and Green wants the deals to be moved across to his new company, which now has ownership of Ibrox Stadium and the Murray Park training ground.
The "newco" route was taken by Green's group after a company voluntary arrangement (CVA) proposal was not approved.
Players agreed wage cuts in March as the club, which entered administration the month before, reduced costs to fulfil their remaining fixtures for the 2011-12 season.
In return for reduced terms, some players had release clauses added to their contracts that allow them to leave if a set fee is offered.
A number of contracts, including those of defender Sasa Papac and forward Sone Aluko, end this summer, and the former has stated he will be moving on.
Players are due to start reporting back to Murray Park for fitness training on 28 June.
"From the moment HMRC announced they wouldn't support the CVA, we contacted the staff and had a meeting with them and the administrator made them aware," added Green.
"We as a newco started having discussions and, as far as we are concerned, all the contracts transferred under Tupe [regulations].
"Of course, the difficulty is some of the players haven't been around and the likes of [Carlos] Bocanegra have been away on international duty with the USA team.
"They've also been having holidays and taking their families away, so it has been more difficult with the playing staff than the non-playing staff.
"We've been speaking to the PFA [union] though and to individual agents." END

Rangers players out of contract

• Grant Adam
• Sone Aluko
• Kyle Bartley, end of loan from Arsenal
• Gordon Dick
• Scott Gallacher
• David Healy
• Chris Hegarty
• Salim Kerkar
• Andrew Little
• Sasa Papac
• Andrew Mitchell
  
  I can't believe attempts were not made to speak to at least some players about tupe and contracts. I also don't believe Fat Ally won't have been speaking to players. If I was in danger of being made redundant I would be speaking to my manager. Wonder if he will tell them he doesn't have any money on 28 June and that is why they haven't been paid?

Some thoughts re the TUPE/contracts position:

Green is right on a first principles basis, i.e. TUPE will apply and the contracts of employment will transfer to SevCo. There are, however, some important points which I would expect the PFA will have been counselling the players on:

i) Every employee has a right to object to the TUPE transfer. This has the effect of automatically terminating the contract and would mean a player can walk free as at the date of the TUPE transfer. No reason needs to be provided by the employee for objecting to the TUPE transfer - it is simply their right under TUPE.

ii) However, it would normally be expected that an employee submit their objection prior to the TUPE transfer taking place - so in this case before Green completed his smash and grab £5.5m deal at end of last week. This raises the question as to whether any players did that. If not, then TUPE regs would suggest the players will have lost their chance to object to their contracts being transferred and Green has indeed secured their contracts into SevCo.

iii) But....TUPE also states that the employees have a right to be consulted in advance regarding any proposed TUPE transfer (which would in turn inform them as to whether they would want to object to the transfer). I don't think TUPE is prescriptive regarding the length of consultation but my sense is that 90 days minimum would be required. I doubt very much whether those consultation requirements have been satisfied in this example and therefore it would be this point which I would expect the PFA to be looking closely at if a player has NOT objected prior to TUPE transfer date.

iv) One final point re TUPE pertinent to the Huns case. TUPE is primarily there to protects the Ts & Cs of Employment of employees in these situations (pensions aside). TUPE regs do, however, make an exception in the case of Insolvency related TUPE transfers which allow the newco to vary (ie reduce!) the Ts & Cs of employees. Again, one that you would expect the PFA to be highlighting to their members....

[RyeSloan]

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Some thoughts re the TUPE/contracts position:

Green is right on a first principles basis, i.e. TUPE will apply and the contracts of employment will transfer to SevCo. There are, however, some important points which I would expect the PFA will have been counselling the players on:

i) Every employee has a right to object to the TUPE transfer. This has the effect of automatically terminating the contract and would mean a player can walk free as at the date of the TUPE transfer. No reason needs to be provided by the employee for objecting to the TUPE transfer - it is simply their right under TUPE.

ii) However, it would normally be expected that an employee submit their objection prior to the TUPE transfer taking place - so in this case before Green completed his smash and grab £5.5m deal at end of last week. This raises the question as to whether any players did that. If not, then TUPE regs would suggest the players will have lost their chance to object to their contracts being transferred and Green has indeed secured their contracts into SevCo.

iii) But....TUPE also states that the employees have a right to be consulted in advance regarding any proposed TUPE transfer (which would in turn inform them as to whether they would want to object to the transfer). I don't think TUPE is prescriptive regarding the length of consultation but my sense is that 90 days minimum would be required. I doubt very much whether those consultation requirements have been satisfied in this example and therefore it would be this point which I would expect the PFA to be looking closely at if a player has NOT objected prior to TUPE transfer date.

iv) One final point re TUPE pertinent to the Huns case. TUPE is primarily there to protects the Ts & Cs of Employment of employees in these situations (pensions aside). TUPE regs do, however, make an exception in the case of Insolvency related TUPE transfers which allow the newco to vary (ie reduce!) the Ts & Cs of employees. Again, one that you would expect the PFA to be highlighting to their members....

Good post and one that makes it clear that the players contracts cannot be part of servco yet…Green’s comments are somewhat bizarre he seems to be saying the players are his yet in the same breath saying it’s been hard to contact some (all) of the players…as you have made clear you can’t simply TUPE people without their knowledge or acceptance. Also his version of events would suggest the whole squad were transferred on existing wages, simply not an option for such a illiquid takeover effort.

Sounds to me like all players are still contracted to old Rangers, they are being paid from the asset sale proceeds and if no TUPE agreement is made will be free agents when old Rangers formally goes into liquidation.

Also your post has made it quite clear that players can refuse TUPE and become free agents. For any player of quality this will clearly be their best option as Servco will not be able to match their existing wage.

Green as ever is talking riddles and comes across as someone who has title to something but he and everyone else is not entirely sure what. He also seems to be having to react to events rather than dictate them so it’s pretty obvious he has little or no ability to direct or influence the course of coming events…events that will soon see Servco without any real playing squad to talk of, no income and no league to play in. Shame

[Gus Fring]

http://bbc.in/MgxuBt

Another Takeover bid! Disgusting that they have all waited until the debt was wiped before making themselves known!

[Jim44]

Post on FF. Chris McLaughlan BBC, reporting an £11m bid from two Scottish millionaires to be announced.

[Beefster]

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http://bbc.in/MgxuBt

Another Takeover bid! Disgusting that they have all waited until the debt was wiped before making themselves known!

Considering whoever bought the club/assets/whatever could walk away scot-free anyway (either with the CVA accepted or a newco set up), I don't understand why folk would be willing to pay £11m now but not offer anything to buy the club pre-CVA for less.

[ballengeich]

It's now 21 days since the case at the Court of Session and I believe that's the limit for an appeal. Time for the SFA's tribunal to reconvene and decide on a punishment to replace the transfer embargo. A one year suspension from all Scottish football seems appropriate to me as the earlier attempt to be lenient and help them to continue as a football club was thrown back in the tribunal's faces.

Also there must be serious reservations about Sevco's ability to complete their fixtures in any division. There's doubt about whether they have any players and the club's funding is at best unclear.

[Mon Dieu4]

Just found my new favourite quote of the whole saga hahahahahaha

" Personally i am sick to the back teeth of these attacks. Its fcking constant and absolutely out of order. If such tactics were adopted against, say the Asian community there would be worldwide condemnation. But its ok cos its just rangers."

[Jim44]

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Just found my new favourite quote of the whole saga hahahahahaha

" Personally i am sick to the back teeth of these attacks. Its fcking constant and absolutely out of order. If such tactics were adopted against, say the Asian community there would be worldwide condemnation. But its ok cos its just rangers."

Talking about favourite quotes, can anyone trace the excellent one which beautifully summed up sporting integrity over financial expediency?

[Cropley10]

Cut & Paste from RTC blog. But sums it up perfectly for me.

Amidst all the excitement two things strike me;

1. Any self-respecting, blue-blooded Scottish businessman knows that to keep Ra Peeps in the trophy laden manner they demand requires massive ongoing investment with no return other than kudos. The evidence is there for all to see. No European football = no star players = no trophies = no full houses = no European football = no star players = no trophies = no full houses ad infinitum. It’s a vicious, money sapping circle. Vilification would ensue for any ‘saviours’ who can’t match the DM glory years. Hence Knights and Cardigans various have all had a sniff and backed away. A bottomless pit for their cash and way too much hassle.

2. SPL chairmen vote Sevco Bears into SPL, seconded by the SFA = a worldwide ban for Scottish football. The men from UEFA/FIFA will say non! They simply won’t allow it.

Conclusion; Division 3 is the only option for Sevco Bears, both financially and legislatively. Even that is increasingly beginning to look like a long shot. Nice.

I think the part in bold might have something to do with future BDO/HMRC investigations as well. Which is also 'nice'.

[Cropley10]

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Post on FF. Chris McLaughlan BBC, reporting an £11m bid from two Scottish millionaires to be announced.

One of whom is (or was) disqualified from being a Director for 7 years!!

They also owed the taxman and hd their business liquidated.

That Chris McLaughlan is simply a mouthpiece for Green and Jack Irvine (Hun PR)

[Cropley10]

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It's now 21 days since the case at the Court of Session and I believe that's the limit for an appeal. Time for the SFA's tribunal to reconvene and decide on a punishment to replace the transfer embargo. A one year suspension from all Scottish football seems appropriate to me as the earlier attempt to be lenient and help them to continue as a football club was thrown back in the tribunal's faces.

Also there must be serious reservations about Sevco's ability to complete their fixtures in any division. There's doubt about whether they have any players and the club's funding is at best unclear.

Much more sensible, surely, to wait until after 4 July?

If they're dead, how can you apply a sanction to a dead club. If Sevco Utd are allowed to take their share they do it on condition they accept this punishment.

Problem is if you do it now, they're saying they're the same Club. Which they aint.

[Cropley10]

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Good post and one that makes it clear that the players contracts cannot be part of servco yet…Green’s comments are somewhat bizarre he seems to be saying the players are his yet in the same breath saying it’s been hard to contact some (all) of the players…as you have made clear you can’t simply TUPE people without their knowledge or acceptance. Also his version of events would suggest the whole squad were transferred on existing wages, simply not an option for such a illiquid takeover effort.

Sounds to me like all players are still contracted to old Rangers, they are being paid from the asset sale proceeds and if no TUPE agreement is made will be free agents when old Rangers formally goes into liquidation.

Also your post has made it quite clear that players can refuse TUPE and become free agents. For any player of quality this will clearly be their best option as Servco will not be able to match their existing wage.

Green as ever is talking riddles and comes across as someone who has title to something but he and everyone else is not entirely sure what. He also seems to be having to react to events rather than dictate them so it’s pretty obvious he has little or no ability to direct or influence the course of coming events…events that will soon see Servco without any real playing squad to talk of, no income and no league to play in. Shame

Every single one of those players will be too terrified to 'walk away' now. They just need to bide their time. This is all going to end in disaster for the Hun - potentially no football AT ALL imho.

[CentreLine]

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This has undoubtedly affected Scottish football and the low season tickets bought is solely IMO down to the uncertainty of the situation and fans waiting to see which way their club is voting before handing over their money. It is imperative for fans of all clubs for them to make it as clear as possible to their clubs that this is the case so that clubs cannot use the low season numbers as an excuse to weedle Rangers back into the SPL.

If the chairmen make the right decision then I will be right round to ER for my season ticket. Who's with me?

[Matty_Jack04]

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Much more sensible, surely, to wait until after 4 July?

If they're dead, how can you apply a sanction to a dead club. If Sevco Utd are allowed to take their share they do it on condition they accept this punishment.

Problem is if you do it now, they're saying they're the same Club. Which they aint.

Agree, this July 4th vote should be blown to bits now ala HMRC rejecting CVA 24hrs in advance of the vote, rod should get on the blower 6 chairmen all release statements that they will vote no on July 4th and everyone knows where they stand

[snooky]

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This comes as no surprise to me, i think everyone is under estimating just how strong the feeling is among non Rangers fans. This already has hurt every club in the SPL, we are staring at a huge loss for all the clubs, even if they are demoted to the 3rd division. People can only be ****ed about so much, and a lot of folk have had enough.

Ever club bar Rangers will struggle, not because of them being relegated should it happen, but because they have watched every authority bend over backwards to help them, we have seen 99% of the media fawn over them, making excuse after excuse. We have seen just where we all stand in the grand scheme of things in the Scottish game, and its not been good viewing.

Rangers actions and lack of morality HAS affected the rest of the game, a lot of people are or are nearing the end of their tether.

Those in charge of our game have hardly covered themselves in glory, and are just as bad as Rangers in ALL of this.

Spot on, BH.
The reason the SFA/SPL and all their followfollowers have dragged their heels in this RFC escapade is because they're all part of the same fungus.
Scottish Football? Rip it up and start again - bin all the dodgy officials from Ogilvie to CT and on.

[ancient hibee]

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http://bbc.in/MgxuBt

Another Takeover bid! Disgusting that they have all waited until the debt was wiped before making themselves known!

Land Developers!That should have the huns shivering.

[joe breezy]

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http://bbc.in/MgxuBt

Another Takeover bid! Disgusting that they have all waited until the debt was wiped before making themselves known!

Quite interesting that one of them is a Celtic season ticket holder and they are property developers

[joe breezy]

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Land Developers!That should have the huns shivering.

And Celtic fans, ho ho ho

[HibeeSince85]

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One of whom is (or was) disqualified from being a Director for 7 years!!

They also owed the taxman and hd their business liquidated.

That Chris McLaughlan is simply a mouthpiece for Green and Jack Irvine (Hun PR)

Just read about these two.

Business wound up due to unpaid tax, directors ban.

They do say ***** attracts flies.

This whole thing stinks, could not agree more with BH also, the whole of Scottish Football suffers because of a bigoted, corrupt cesspit.

[Ozyhibby]

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If the chairmen make the right decision then I will be right round to ER for my season ticket. Who's with me?

Me + a ticket for my lad. 5th July if all goes well and the right thing is done.

[Offside Trap]

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Just read about these two.

Business wound up due to unpaid tax, directors ban.

They do say ***** attracts flies.

This whole thing stinks, could not agree more with BH also, the whole of Scottish Football suffers because of a bigoted, corrupt cesspit.

Rangers Tax Case blogger chap on Twitter having a go at Chris McLaughlin - basically saying this new bid is "amateurish" and "has no chance"...and that CM shouldn't have given it air time on BBC. The two of them are having a right proper spat on Twitter - quite funny!

[Part/Time Supporter]

Kickstart 2000 (aka Gary Mackay) bumped for nearly £120K by Rangers (presumably commission on the Wallace deal).

http://www.rangers.co.uk/staticFiles...~177463,00.pdf

[WhileTheChief..]

I just don't see there being a Rangers playing football anywhere in Scotland on August 4th.

There are way too many investigations, court cases, contract disputes etc., not to mention a complete lack of actual cash for them to be anywhere near ready in time.

In won't be down to the vote of SPL clubs or the result of the BTC, it will simply be down to time. There's not enough of it for them.

[CyberSauzee]

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Talking about favourite quotes, can anyone trace the excellent one which beautifully summed up sporting integrity over financial expediency?

Is it this one from john McBeth?

"If you look after the sport the money will follow you, if you look after the money you'll kill the sport.''


http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/18265663

[Dashing Bob S]

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Kickstart 2000 (aka Gary Mackay) bumped for nearly £120K by Rangers (presumably commission on the Wallace deal).

http://www.rangers.co.uk/staticFiles...~177463,00.pdf

Every cloud...

[johnbc70]

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This comes as no surprise to me, i think everyone is under estimating just how strong the feeling is among non Rangers fans. This already has hurt every club in the SPL, we are staring at a huge loss for all the clubs, even if they are demoted to the 3rd division. People can only be ****ed about so much, and a lot of folk have had enough.

Ever club bar Rangers will struggle, not because of them being relegated should it happen, but because they have watched every authority bend over backwards to help them, we have seen 99% of the media fawn over them, making excuse after excuse. We have seen just where we all stand in the grand scheme of things in the Scottish game, and its not been good viewing.

Rangers actions and lack of morality HAS affected the rest of the game, a lot of people are or are nearing the end of their tether.

Those in charge of our game have hardly covered themselves in glory, and are just as bad as Rangers in ALL of this.

Just read this reply and you have summed it up very well ll Blackpool, even if newco are in Div 3 then it really has opened up a lot of fans eyes about how the Scottish game is run and the media behind it. While I think most of us knew the game was run for the benefit of the 2 we never really could quite prove it, yes they got the dodgy decisions, but we never saw the level of submissivnes( is that the right word) that we are seeing from the authorities and the media we are seeing now. As I say even with newco in division 3 then I think Scottish football has lost some fans forever, and those that continue to go

[johnbc70]

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This comes as no surprise to me, i think everyone is under estimating just how strong the feeling is among non Rangers fans. This already has hurt every club in the SPL, we are staring at a huge loss for all the clubs, even if they are demoted to the 3rd division. People can only be ****ed about so much, and a lot of folk have had enough.

Ever club bar Rangers will struggle, not because of them being relegated should it happen, but because they have watched every authority bend over backwards to help them, we have seen 99% of the media fawn over them, making excuse after excuse. We have seen just where we all stand in the grand scheme of things in the Scottish game, and its not been good viewing.

Rangers actions and lack of morality HAS affected the rest of the game, a lot of people are or are nearing the end of their tether.

Those in charge of our game have hardly covered themselves in glory, and are just as bad as Rangers in ALL of this.

Just read this reply and you have summed it up very well ll Blackpool, even if newco are in Div 3 then it really has opened up a lot of fans eyes about how the Scottish game is run and the media behind it. While I think most of us knew the game was run for the benefit of the 2 we never really could quite prove it, yes they got the dodgy decisions, but we never saw the level of submissivnes( is that the right word) that we are seeing from the authorities and the media we are seeing now. As I say even with newco in division 3 then I think Scottish football has lost some fans forever, and even those that continue to go may feel something has been lost. It's a sad state of affairs indeed.

[Jim44]

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Is it this one from john McBeth?

"If you look after the sport the money will follow you, if you look after the money you'll kill the sport.''


http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/18265663

The very one...................... The quote of the thread IMHO. Thanks.

[MyJo]

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Agree, this July 4th vote should be blown to bits now ala HMRC rejecting CVA 24hrs in advance of the vote, rod should get on the blower 6 chairmen all release statements that they will vote no on July 4th and everyone knows where they stand

The most sensible thing to do would be for the "gang of 10" to sit down and decide amongst themselves how they are going to vote and if more than 5 of them make it clear they will be voting no at the meeting then making a statement to declare that ALL clubs have reached the decision to not allow NewHuns to enter the SPL and therefore avoid the risk of some clubs voting yes and incurring the wrath of their own fans and the celtic boycotts on 4th July.

[matty_f]

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The most sensible thing to do would be for the "gang of 10" to sit down and decide amongst themselves how they are going to vote and if more than 5 of them make it clear they will be voting no at the meeting then making a statement to declare that ALL clubs have reached the decision to not allow NewHuns to enter the SPL and therefore avoid the risk of some clubs voting yes and incurring the wrath of their own fans and the celtic boycotts on 4th July.

That's a good shout, though they should include Celtc in it as well - no need to alienate them just now.