Generic Sevco / Rangers meltdown thread

***CropleyWasGod*** · 03-05-2012 05:00 PM

Originally Posted by matty_f

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Same question applies though chief - can companies be brought to task for doing that?

Thought you might ask that

Basically, the assets will need to be seen to be sold at market value. What is "market value", though? RFC, the admins, Miller will argue that there is no other offer on the table, so MV basically means whatever anyone is prepared to pay for them. In this case, that's BM's £11m or whatever has been agreed.

If any creditor thinks the sale price is too low, I suppose they could apply to the Court to have the sale stopped. I am not sure that they will, though.... this is probably the best deal they are going to get.

***CropleyWasGod*** · 03-05-2012 05:02 PM

Originally Posted by blindsummit

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My one hope was that HMRC would be the spanner in their works, particularly all their talk of making an example of tax dodgers, EBT abusers etc.

Now it seems that they too are in on the fix and are compliant cogs in the Ranger support machine.

.

That remains to be seen. Despite the admins claims, I am not accepting that scenario until HMRC have actually spoken.

**~~down the slope~~** · 03-05-2012 05:03 PM

Thompson interviews Paul Clark

http://www.channel4.com/news/miller-...eferred-bidder

snake !.

***stokesmessiah*** · 03-05-2012 05:04 PM

Originally Posted by blindsummit

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It seems like the machinations are coming to their conclusion now and the result the cynics always expected is to come about. Rangers will escape with a single bound and continue as if nothing has happened. I always expected that SDM, CW, the SFA, SPL D*P ect al were corrupt from the start and had this fix lined up from the start.

My one hope was that HMRC would be the spanner in their works, particularly all their talk of making an example of tax dodgers, EBT abusers etc.

Now it seems that they too are in on the fix and are compliant cogs in the Ranger support machine.

Is this then the real nub of the conspiracy (which this whole 20 year scenario has been, make no mistake)? Why would the supposedly impartial agents of our elected government do this? What is their motivation? Who do they really serve? And who can have directed or influenced them to save Rangers and why are they compliant?

This is now where our conversation will move onto, as it seems the battle for sporting integrity and a level playing field is over. R.I.P. Scottish Football, I knew you well. But no more.

I'm lucky in that I moved to Canada a few years ago so my spending on Scottish Football is now restricted to buying Hibs TV, getting stuff sent from the Hibs shop and the odd game when I'm over. but even that will be no more. I am certainly glad that i don't pay any taxes to the corrupt HMRC that's for sure.

Thankfully I got into Hockey & the Detroit Red Wings in a big way and that's where my focus will lie. It's not institutionally corrupt that's for sure and anyone can and does win, witness the surprises in this year's Stanley Cup Playoffs so far.

So after this years SCF, if anyone called Rangers is in the SPL next year, that's it for me. Sorry to be so negative but I'm so disgusted with the brazen sham in front of our eyes right now, I can hardly think straight for the anger.

I think the they were always likely to end up back in the SPL but if they get away without sanctions then i am with you. I hope to F*** that the SFA dont buckle and stick to their fines and transfer embargo. Provided that is that the embargo goes with whatever company RFC is trading out of.

Can someone confirm or deny if that is attached to the licence or the company?

**JeMeSouviens** · 03-05-2012 05:04 PM

Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

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That remains to be seen. Despite the admins claims, I am not accepting that scenario until HMRC have actually spoken.

Indeed ...

alex thomson ‏ @alextomo

HMRC on poss Rangers takeover "We will consider our position when any package is put to us."

**blindsummit** · 03-05-2012 05:05 PM

Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

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That remains to be seen. Despite the admins claims, I am not accepting that scenario until HMRC have actually spoken.

I do hope you are right CWG. I'm just in such a pissy mood with the crap being spouted by the meeja and D&P etc that I'm at a low point.

**JeMeSouviens** · 03-05-2012 05:05 PM

Originally Posted by matty_f

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Cheers chaps, that makes sense to me now.

In that case, how can Miller possibly think that they can retain the history etc?

The SPL surely can't just waive Miller's club in then. That's a complete nonsense!

**blindsummit** · 03-05-2012 05:07 PM

Originally Posted by down the slope

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Thompson interviews Paul Clark

http://www.channel4.com/news/miller-...eferred-bidder

snake !.

Unfortunately the normally excellent Thommo missed an open goal. Clark stated that D&P's job was to "protect the football club by transferring it to a new company" or somsuch. If I had been Thommo I would have said "oh that's funny, because I thought your job was to protect the creditors?".

***millarco*** · 03-05-2012 05:21 PM

Originally Posted by blindsummit

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Unfortunately the normally excellent Thommo missed an open goal. Clark stated that D&P's job was to "protect the football club by transferring it to a new company" or somsuch. If I had been Thommo I would have said "oh that's funny, because I thought your job was to protect the creditors?".

The same with the BBC interview (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/scotland/17943429) where he repeatedly refers to the priority being keeping the club going.

I thought on the open market the players/Ibrox/Murray Park etc could generate more than the £11m they're talking about for creditors, unless they are guaranteed a slice of any future income (unlikely).

***CropleyWasGod*** · 03-05-2012 05:23 PM

Originally Posted by millarco

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The same with the BBC interview (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/scotland/17943429) where he repeatedly refers to the priority being keeping the club going.

I thought on the open market the players/Ibrox/Murray Park etc could generate more than the £11m they're talking about for creditors, unless they are guaranteed a slice of any future income (unlikely).

What is the open market, though? If Miller is the only person interested in buying those assets, the £11m is market value.

**HibeeMG** · 03-05-2012 05:24 PM

Hopefully someone can help me here.

As I understand it, the assets will be 'sold' by the OldCo to the NewCo. The value placed on these assets are not market value but are the value placed on them by the buyer.

This doesn't get the best result for the creditors as they don't know if the assets would have brought in more cash by being placed on the open market.

Why would the creditors not ask for the assets to be placed on sale to everyone?

If the NewCo bid for each asset is the highest then so be it but who knows what building developer or supermarket chain might bid for Murray Park etc.

johnbc70 · 03-05-2012 05:25 PM

Time for UEFA or FIFA to step in here and take over this mess. They must have some power?

***millarco*** · 03-05-2012 05:25 PM

Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

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What is the open market, though? If Miller is the only person interested in buying those assets, the £11m is market value.

Fair enough with Ibrox and Murray Park, but what about the players?

***Seveno*** · 03-05-2012 05:25 PM

James Cook on BBC news has just quoted HMRC as saying ' We have agreed nothing '.

***speedy_gonzales*** · 03-05-2012 05:26 PM

Ach, the whole sorry affair has just jumped the shark.
A statement in the Telegraph by Bill Miller included the line
"I respect the club as one of the world's great sporting institutions and one of the UK's most venerable football clubs.",
NOW, being a Hibby I don't profess to be the brightest, but my understanding of the word venerable is something akin to someone or something that commands respect through wisdom or by virtue of character. Rangers, by virtue of CHARACTER, after the way they have conducted their business and the subsequent mess they have found themselves.

IS SOMEONE TAKING THE P!$$???

***Jim44*** · 03-05-2012 05:27 PM

Originally Posted by matty_f

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Yep, that's a big issue but nobody can do anything about that until it happens, if it happens.

I agree, but playing devil's advocate here, if HMRC agree the CVA and Rangers repay whatever in the pound, that's the same as many businesses who find themselves in the position of having to agree structured and partial debt repayments. That's between HMRC and Rangers, rather than the SPL (though IIRC, the SPL want to make being on time and up to date with tax payments part something that's punishable if it's not adhered to - it was in the proposals that are being delayed as far as I remember).

Is this deferral not just a ploy by the SPL to allow today's events to happen, thereby allowing Rangers to slip back unscathed and not subject to any sanctions eventually voted on by the cowardly and self-interested club bosses including ours?

***CropleyWasGod*** · 03-05-2012 05:28 PM

Originally Posted by Seveno

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James Cook on BBC news has just quoted HMRC as saying ' We have agreed nothing '.

I would be surprised if HMRC even said that.

***CropleyWasGod*** · 03-05-2012 05:29 PM

Originally Posted by millarco

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Fair enough with Ibrox and Murray Park, but what about the players?

What are they worth? Whatever anyone is prepared to pay a club that is struggling to pay its own bills, that's how much. Next to nowt.

***millarco*** · 03-05-2012 05:36 PM

Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

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What are they worth? Whatever anyone is prepared to pay a club that is struggling to pay its own bills, that's how much. Next to nowt.

Possibly but competition can drive up the price. I'm sure West Brom were being quoted a couple of million each for McGregor and Naismith, and Davis/Goian/Edu/Whittaker should have a few teams interested in them. I guess this would all be dependent on the valuations supposedly inserted in their revised contracts, which may render my opinion a total nonsense!

The PFA I think still believe that the contracts are only applicable to the oldco, in which case it would be a free-for-all and we'd see how many players 'don't do walking away'.

***Mon Dieu4*** · 03-05-2012 05:38 PM

Having just seen it all on the news sounds like d&p are waffling nonsense and all that has happened is a preferred bidder has been named

**blindsummit** · 03-05-2012 05:38 PM

Originally Posted by Seveno

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James Cook on BBC news has just quoted HMRC as saying ' We have agreed nothing '.

So D&P are lying. jeezus h cristos, what a parcel of rouges. They do have brazen balls of brass though I'll give them that.

**blindsummit** · 03-05-2012 05:39 PM

Originally Posted by speedy_gonzales

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Ach, the whole sorry affair has just jumped the shark.
A statement in the Telegraph by Bill Miller included the line
"I respect the club as one of the world's great sporting institutions and one of the UK's most venerable football clubs.",
NOW, being a Hibby I don't profess to be the brightest, but my understanding of the word venerable is something akin to someone or something that commands respect through wisdom or by virtue of character. Rangers, by virtue of CHARACTER, after the way they have conducted their business and the subsequent mess they have found themselves.

IS SOMEONE TAKING THE P!$$???

Doesn't he mean "venereal" ?

**jgl07** · 03-05-2012 05:39 PM

Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

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What are they worth? Whatever anyone is prepared to pay a club that is struggling to pay its own bills, that's how much. Next to nowt.

Most of the players will probably be able to walk when the transfer window opens and the wage cut deal ends.

Even if they are not technically able to become free agents they could refuse and transfers until they were freed.

Miller is hinting at cost cutting so any of the players with a value on the transfer market will have to be released as they are on high wages.

**Part/Time Supporter** · 03-05-2012 05:40 PM

Originally Posted by Mon Dieu4

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Having just seen it all on the news sounds like d&p are waffling nonsense and all that has happened is a preferred bidder has been named

The only disturbing thing is this alleged assurance that Rangers will stay in the SPL no matter what. Most likely it was Neil Doncaster who gave that assurance. Under what authority did he give it?

***Jim44*** · 03-05-2012 05:44 PM

In the BBC report 'portrait' of Miller, they failed to mention the dodgy and IIRC possibly illegal ( allegedly) episode with an American sports institution about 8 years ago ( I'm sure there's a link to the story not far back on this thread).

***grunt*** · 03-05-2012 06:00 PM

Originally Posted by millarco

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The same with the BBC interview (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/scotland/17943429) where he repeatedly refers to the priority being keeping the club going.

I thought on the open market the players/Ibrox/Murray Park etc could generate more than the £11m they're talking about for creditors, unless they are guaranteed a slice of any future income (unlikely).

Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

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What is the open market, though? If Miller is the only person interested in buying those assets, the £11m is market value.

I agree with millarco; how can the £11m - and it won't be £11m by the time D&P get their paws on their cash - be the best deal for creditors, when the administrators have not even tried to look at selling the club on a breakup basis? Surely the players and Moray Park between them would attract more than that? The D&P guy said twice that the key imperative was to keep the club going. Heartily fed up tonight. Both as a taxpayer and a football fan. A black day.

***grunt*** · 03-05-2012 06:01 PM

Originally Posted by jgl07

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Most of the players will probably be able to walk when the transfer window opens and the wage cut deal ends.
Even if they are not technically able to become free agents they could refuse and transfers until they were freed.

Well that torpedoes my plan.

**HibeeMG** · 03-05-2012 06:01 PM

Originally Posted by HibeeMG

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Hopefully someone can help me here.

As I understand it, the assets will be 'sold' by the OldCo to the NewCo. The value placed on these assets are not market value but are the value placed on them by the buyer.

This doesn't get the best result for the creditors as they don't know if the assets would have brought in more cash by being placed on the open market.

Why would the creditors not ask for the assets to be placed on sale to everyone?

If the NewCo bid for each asset is the highest then so be it but who knows what building developer or supermarket chain might bid for Murray Park etc.

Nobody?