Generic Sevco / Rangers meltdown thread

[CropleyWasGod]

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I'm with you on this one. Remember that they said at the outset that they were confident that Rangers would emerge from administration - a comment made when they had not carried out any research.

Why did Whyte insist that they were appointed ?

I am certain that the agenda from the start was to take them into liquidation to escape from all the debts, including the BTC.

Whoever is behind Whyte could end up with a valuable asset on the cheap. Meanwhile, David Murray could end up facing criminal charges fro tax evasion.

Liquidation wouldn't escape all the debts.

Ibrox, Murray Park and the Albion would all have to be sold in such an event. I have no idea how much they would fetch, but the proceeds would make a pretty big hole in the debt.

[Seveno]

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The whole thing is inexplicable. The only scenario that I can see that makes sense is as follows:

1. Rangers announce they are considering administration (with D&P being tipped to take the job on).

2. HMRC get edgy about this and go to the Court of Session with their own plea to put Rangers into Administration and by implication not with D&P acting as administrators.

3. The Court gives Rangers two hours to appoint an administrator before they will do it on Rangers behalf.

4. D&P appointed by Whyte with half an hour to spare.

5. D&P rather than invalidate season tickets asking supporters to pay again and trimming the staff actually try to sign Daniel Cousin although this is blocked by the SPL transfer embargo.

6. The only reason for D&P to reasonably adopt a 'business as usual' stance is that some external party (presumably Rangers FC Group) have agreed to provide the cash. This was probably intended to come from the 'missing' cash from the Ticketus advance held by Collyer Bristow.

7. This was presumably a prelude to Rangers being liquidated and the Rangers FC Group taking over the key assets - Ibrox, Murray Park and the key playing staff - and emerging debt free before applying to the SPL for readmission.

8. The heat was on and the extent of Whyte's activities became known so the plan was never pursued. Whyte went to ground and D&P have been running around like headless chickens ever since. All their announcements have been of issues that were well know and splashed in blogs some time earlier.

9. D&P eventually locate the missing balance of the Ticketus cash in Collyer and Bristow's account. They apply to seize this. This is a wise move as it appears that Collyer and Bristow are themselves at threat of
financial meltdown following a court decision.

If anyone can come up with a more plausible scenario, I would be interested to see it.

First class deduction. Makes perfect sense to me.

You don't happen to have tomorrow night's lottery numbers do you ?

[CropleyWasGod]

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The whole thing is inexplicable. The only scenario that I can see that makes sense is as follows:

1. Rangers announce they are considering administration (with D&P being tipped to take the job on).

2. HMRC get edgy about this and go to the Court of Session with their own plea to put Rangers into Administration and by implication not with D&P acting as administrators.

3. The Court gives Rangers two hours to appoint an administrator before they will do it on Rangers behalf.

4. D&P appointed by Whyte with half an hour to spare.

5. D&P rather than invalidate season tickets asking supporters to pay again and trimming the staff actually try to sign Daniel Cousin although this is blocked by the SPL transfer embargo.

6. The only reason for D&P to reasonably adopt a 'business as usual' stance is that some external party (presumably Rangers FC Group) have agreed to provide the cash. This was probably intended to come from the 'missing' cash from the Ticketus advance held by Collyer Bristow.

7. This was presumably a prelude to Rangers being liquidated and the Rangers FC Group taking over the key assets - Ibrox, Murray Park and the key playing staff - and emerging debt free before applying to the SPL for readmission.

8. The heat was on and the extent of Whyte's activities became known so the plan was never pursued. Whyte went to ground and D&P have been running around like headless chickens ever since. All their announcements have been of issues that were well know and splashed in blogs some time earlier.

9. D&P eventually locate the missing balance of the Ticketus cash in Collyer and Bristow's account. They apply to seize this. This is a wise move as it appears that Collyer and Bristow are themselves at threat of
financial meltdown following a court decision.

If anyone can come up with a more plausible scenario, I would be interested to see it.

7 is where it falls down for me, and where it probably fell down for the Grand Plan. The security is invalid. Otherwise, it makes sense.

At some point, I reckon D & P might have changed their stance from being CW's pal to a more arms-length position. They have to bear in mind their responsibility to the Court, not to mention their reputation. Because of the high-profile nature of this case, they know their behaviour will be under intense scrutiny.

[PatHead]

RE Dumfermline being paid.
Firstly if I was another creditor awaiting cash for work I had done I would be mad. I would consider suing the administrator as there is no football preferred creditor rule in Scotland.

Secondly, call me a cynic but is this Rangers buying Yorkson's vote in the event of them having to re-apply to the SPL or for them to go soft on any penalties? Wonder if Dundee Utd and Hearts start going bananas if they will find the money for them?

Maybe they will raise it from the friendly against Portsmouth which will doubtless overshadow any Scottish Cup ties this weekend.

[CropleyWasGod]

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First class deduction. Makes perfect sense to me.

You don't happen to have tomorrow night's lottery numbers do you ?

16, 90, 18, 73.....and 666

[CropleyWasGod]

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RE Dumfermline being paid.
Firstly if I was another creditor awaiting cash for work I had done I would be mad. I would consider suing the administrator as there is no football preferred creditor rule in Scotland.

Secondly, call me a cynic but is this Rangers buying Yorkson's vote in the event of them having to re-apply to the SPL or for them to go soft on any penalties? Wonder if Dundee Utd and Hearts start going bananas if they will find the money for them?

Maybe they will raise it from the friendly against Portsmouth which will doubtless overshadow any Scottish Cup ties this weekend.

This is the only thing that I could come up with. Maybe they think that the rules up here are the same as in England.

If so, they need their erchies kicked.

And, aye, yer a cynic :0)

[JeMeSouviens]

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That's a creditor in my book. RFC had cash belonging to DAFC, before they went into administration.

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I don't think that matters. If it was in RFC bank account when they entered administration, and it is due to a third party, then I would think that was a creditor. I could be wrong, not an expert.

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The same could be said for unpaid VAT and PAYE in that case.

Maybe not then, it was the only guess I could come up with.

[blindsummit]

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The chat on twitter just now from Chris Mclaughlin & Graham Spiers is that there are to be NO immediate redundancies as the players are discussing a 25 -75 % pay cut for the next month.

With apologies to CWG, who takes a rather more balanced and knowledgable approach to what's happening, in my myopic rankers hatred, i think this whole thing stinks. Players should have been out the door on day one. The administrators seem to be more worried about protecting rangers than anything else.

[CropleyWasGod]

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With apologies to CWG, who takes a rather more balanced and knowledgable approach to what's happening, in my myopic rankers hatred, i think this whole thing stinks. Players should have been out the door on day one. The administrators seem to be more worried about protecting rangers than anything else.

This is why it's so fascinating for me, though. On one hand, we have the mysteries of insolvency law, and on the other the emotion and cynicism that goes along with being a fitba fan.

FTR, I hate the Huns as much as you do

[JeMeSouviens]

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7 is where it falls down for me, and where it probably fell down for the Grand Plan. The security is invalid. Otherwise, it makes sense.

What do you mean "invalid"?

btw, I think Whyte's plan was always to go for administration and then liquidation when the big tax case hit. Unfortunately for him, he wasn't in control of Rangers' defence. It's being conducted on behalf of the Murray Group, so he couldn't control how much stalling went on and the tribunal dragged into the new year. With a £50M bill he would've legitimately been able to say there's no way they could pay it and implicitly put all the blame on Murray's regime. Without that fig leaf it's become blindingly obvious he was a shyster with no intention of ponying up and every intention of making off with the deeds to Ibrox and a nice little earner in renting it to the Phoenix Huns.

[CropleyWasGod]

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What do you mean "invalid"?

A floating charge (which is what RFCG have over RFC's assets) is only valid if there is a debt. The admins seem to accept now that there is no debt (from the Record of Friday/Saturday).

[Hibernia&Alba]

Now the administrators are saying they hope to avoid immediate player redundencies. A club that needs to save £4.5 million by the end of the season? I don't recall the administrators at Livi, Dundee and Motherwell being so wonderful.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/17221172

[Twa Cairpets]

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This is the only thing that I could come up with. Maybe they think that the rules up here are the same as in England.

If so, they need their erchies kicked.

And, aye, yer a cynic :0)

Is it possibly that the ticket money isn't treated in the same way as, say an invoice for goods or services would be? I take the point though that HMRC money could/should be viewed the same way - i.e. it isnt the Huns money in the first place.

[johnrebus]

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Rangers have only themselves to blame here. I see fat Sally saying a few folk have "Sly" digs and "kicks" at his club. Well Ally maybe if the ugly sisters never acted like 2 school bullies other clubs would be more sympathetic. It's like a classroom of 12 kids. 2 kids are the bullies and instead of having the same lunch money the make sure they take everything they can and leave the rest with next to nothing. If this was a classroom they would be expelled unless they paid us all back the money owed to us.

So Ally, I honestly hope you're horrible club die a slow death and free the rest to move on because as it stands this game is pretty much dead anyway, so what do we really have to lose?? the league would be better IMO.

I only wish I was in the positition to give them a full blooded kick in the baws.......,

[Twa Cairpets]

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Now the administrators are saying they hope to avoid immediate player redundencies. A club that needs to save £4.5 million by the end of the season? I don't recall the administrators at Livi, Dundee and Motherwell being so wonderful.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/17221172

If it cuts costs, from an administrators point of view, it doesnt matter if its through taking wage earners off completely or reducing what they get paid. If they can reduce the outgoings by changing the remuneration structure it arguably is a better position for ongoing stability than binning them. Mind you, you'd have to ask how long mcgregor/whittaker/davis etc would be happy earning 1/4 of what they could if they went down south, so ultimately the players will leave anyway.

[blindsummit]

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This is why it's so fascinating for me, though. On one hand, we have the mysteries of insolvency law, and on the other the emotion and cynicism that goes along with being a fitba fan.

FTR, I hate the Huns as much as you do

I believe you old chap

[johnrebus]

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I'm with you on this one. Remember that they said at the outset that they were confident that Rangers would emerge from administration - a comment made when they had not carried out any research.

Why did Whyte insist that they were appointed ?

I am certain that the agenda from the start was to take them into liquidation to escape from all the debts, including the BTC.

Whoever is behind Whyte could end up with a valuable asset on the cheap. Meanwhile, David Murray could end up facing criminal charges for tax evasion.

If he does, the 'Sir' bit will have to go.

Lester Piggott lost his knighthood for exactly the same thing.

[Thecat23]

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I only wish I was in the positition to give them a full blooded kick in the baws.......,

Me too mate.

[heretoday]

Apparently Fraser Wishart was along at Hun Central today and was surprised to be offered a deal till the end of the season.

[Spike Mandela]

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If it cuts costs, from an administrators point of view, it doesnt matter if its through taking wage earners off completely or reducing what they get paid. If they can reduce the outgoings by changing the remuneration structure it arguably is a better position for ongoing stability than binning them. Mind you, you'd have to ask how long mcgregor/whittaker/davis etc would be happy earning 1/4 of what they could if they went down south, so ultimately the players will leave anyway.

It is only a month long proposal. Not sure if this is tied in to potential promises made to players should a buyer emerge on March 16th.

Dunfermline being paid flys in the face of a club in administration surely?Whole thing is beginning to emerge as the 'wriggle off the hook' scenario as expected. Something stinks in the state of Ibrox.

Not be long now till Duff and Phelps declare they found a bag of money under a desk and Rangers are actually in profit. Craig Whyte is legit and the moon is made of cheese.

[Hibernia&Alba]

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If it cuts costs, from an administrators point of view, it doesnt matter if its through taking wage earners off completely or reducing what they get paid. If they can reduce the outgoings by changing the remuneration structure it arguably is a better position for ongoing stability than binning them. Mind you, you'd have to ask how long mcgregor/whittaker/davis etc would be happy earning 1/4 of what they could if they went down south, so ultimately the players will leave anyway.

Yes, true, they play a balancing act between short term savings and what may bring in more money in the future. It just appears they are being very accommodating, in contrast to the slash and burn position administrators usually take. Craig Whyte was desperate to get Duff & Phelps in before HMRC apoointed their own. Is this proving significant?

To put it in a nutshell, I won't be happy until the bulldozers are at Ibrox

[jgl07]

There was a rather chilling snippet in the Herald this morning that suggested that some SPL clubs were discussing the sanctions being applied to a 'Newco' Rangers being admitted to the SPL. A 'sizable' points deduction and a reduction in broadcasting income were mentioned. So that's all right then.

Meanwhile the SFA are now on the case. Especially with the President Campbell Ogilvie having inside knowledge of Rangers murky tax affairs when he was Company Secretary from 1978 to 2005. He also served as Operations Director and Managing Director at Hearts from 2005 till 2011. He would have certainly been in a position to stop any money laundering or tax evasion at the PBS.

Mr Ogilvie was seen entering Ibrox with a large bucket of whitewash!

[PatHead]

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Is it possibly that the ticket money isn't treated in the same way as, say an invoice for goods or services would be? I take the point though that HMRC money could/should be viewed the same way - i.e. it isnt the Huns money in the first place.

Surprised that HMRC are just letting it go. Would have thought that they would approach court to either replace the administrators or at least ensure Dumfermline remain on the same basis as all other creditors.

By the way CWG am I correct in thinking that the creditors order is-

1. Administrator's expenses
2. Unpaid Staff wages and pension contributions for last 4 months
3. Secured Creditors
4. Everyone else except spouses and shareholders
5. Shareholders
6. Interest on debts incurred since administration
7. Spouses

If I am correct where is the exception that says Dunfermline should get their money and why has no-one pointed this out?

Must admit I am far from impressed with this administrator letting the players dictate when and who will be made redundant.

[johnrebus]

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There was a rather chilling snippet in the Herald this morning that suggested that some SPL clubs were discussing the sanctions being applied to a 'Newco' Rangers being admitted to the SPL. A 'sizable' points deduction and a reduction in broadcasting income were mentioned. So that's all right then.

Meanwhile the SFA are now on the case. Especially with the President Campbell Ogilvie having inside knowledge of Rangers murky tax affairs when he was Company Secretary from 1978 to 2005. He also served as Operations Director and Managing Director at Hearts from 2005 till 2011. He would have certainly been in a position to stop any money laundering or tax evasion at the PBS.

Mr Ogilvie was seen entering Ibrox with a large bucket of whitewash!

I wonder how many guide dogs for the blind Campbell has seen off in his time?

[jgl07]

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Surprised that HMRC are just letting it go. Would have thought that they would approach court to either replace the administrators or at least ensure Dumfermline remain on the same basis as all other creditors.

By the way CWG am I correct in thinking that the creditors order is-

1. Administrator's expenses
2. Unpaid Staff wages and pension contributions for last 4 months
3. Secured Creditors
4. Everyone else except spouses and shareholders
5. Shareholders
6. Interest on debts incurred since administration
7. Spouses

If I am correct where is the exception that says Dunfermline should get their money and why has no-one pointed this out?

Must admit I am far from impressed with this administrator letting the players dictate when and who will be made redundant.

In England there is a 'Football Debts First' policy which seems to have been followed in the case of Portsmouth and Leeds. This policy would suggest that outstanding debts to Dunfermline, Dundee United and Hearts and wages due to players would take priority in any CVA. That is one of the factors that has really annoyed HMRC in the past.

However this does not apply in Scotland although D&P seem to be behaving as if it does!

[Dashing Bob S]

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There was a rather chilling snippet in the Herald this morning that suggested that some SPL clubs were discussing the sanctions being applied to a 'Newco' Rangers being admitted to the SPL. A 'sizable' points deduction and a reduction in broadcasting income were mentioned. So that's all right then.

Meanwhile the SFA are now on the case. Especially with the President Campbell Ogilvie having inside knowledge of Rangers murky tax affairs when he was Company Secretary from 1978 to 2005. He also served as Operations Director and Managing Director at Hearts from 2005 till 2011. He would have certainly been in a position to stop any money laundering or tax evasion at the PBS.

Mr Ogilvie was seen entering Ibrox with a large bucket of whitewash!

Funny, I was thinking, when all this was hitting the fan, if there's one chap who's ring piece will be twitching like an epileptic gunslinger's finger, it'll be Campbell Ogilvie. He might not be bent. He might not be stupid. But he certainly has got himself mired in a filthy barrel surrounded by dubious sorts like Whyte, Murray and Romanov, and I wouldn't bet against him ending up as the sacrificial lamb in that bunch of slippery eels.

[ScottB]

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Funny, I was thinking, when all this was hitting the fan, if there's one chap who's ring piece will be twitching like an epileptic gunslinger's finger, it'll be Campbell Ogilvie. He might not be bent. He might not be stupid. But he certainly has got himself mired in a filthy barrel surrounded by dubious sorts like Whyte, Murray and Romanov, and I wouldn't bet against him ending up as the sacrificial lamb in that bunch of slippery eels.

He was either fully involved or beyond incompetent, neither option leaves him smelling of anything flowery...

[JeMeSouviens]

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A floating charge (which is what RFCG have over RFC's assets) is only valid if there is a debt. The admins seem to accept now that there is no debt (from the Record of Friday/Saturday).

Missed that and can't find it on the Record's site. Presumably the thinking is that the money to pay the bank off came from the Huns themselves (via Ticketus) rather than from Whyte's company? So if Whyte is out of the creditor picture and there are no other secured creditors, then HMRC, as by far the largest unsecured creditor, are likely to be well and truly in the driving seat?

Given their recent attitude pursuing football clubs, that would be most unfortunate for our Hun chums.

[JeMeSouviens]

Yet another investigation time ...

http://www.scotprem.com/content/defa...2&newsid=11135

Into alleged second contracts going right back to the start of the SPL.

[SteveHFC]