Generic Sevco / Rangers meltdown thread

[ancienthibby]

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I'm here ... just got back in for my daily fix of Hun..The Movie.

My position, m'lud, remains unchanged from earlier today. SDM must have known, and allowed the Ticketus/CW/Lloyds settlement to happen just to allow him to get out.

Keep this up, young man, and Lord Nimmo Smith will be calling you to his inquiry!

[green glory]

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http://news.stv.tv/scotland/west-cen...fund-takeover/

The most interesting and humourous part of his statement is the unwillingness of HMRC to budge one inch and even consider some kind of payment plan. It seems they want it all, and at once.

That OF firm game next month might not be an issue. I'm thinking scenes of mass grief as the bulldozers level Ibrox. One can hope.

[Spike Mandela]

Compare todays Whyte statement with his statement below on 31st Jan. He is flailing from one lie to another......

http://videocelts.com/2012/01/blogs/...e-daily-record

[Part/Time Supporter]

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The guy is starting to sound like Mad Vlad.

That's grossly unfair...

to Romanov.

[Seveno]

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That's grossly unfair...

to Romanov.

Vlad was just the warm-up act for this guy. It gets better by the day.

[CropleyWasGod]

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The most interesting and humourous part of his statement is the unwillingness of HMRC to budge one inch and even consider some kind of payment plan. It seems they want it all, and at once.

That OF firm game next month might not be an issue. I'm thinking scenes of mass grief as the bulldozers level Ibrox. One can hope.

I think they will move. They are just not moving yet. They will wait until the Tribunal has made up its mind.

I have had the conversation with HMRC many tmes where the words "blood" and "stone" have been used. They are much more commercially aware than they used to be.

Quite how much they will move remains to be seen. I have never seen a payment plan of (as has been suggested) ten years, but then I have never seen a liability of this sum where there are insufficient assets to cover it, but plenty potential future income.

[cabbageandribs1875]

craig shy*e is madder than a box of frogs





little weasel

[ancienthibby]

Beeb Radio reporting live that CW had offered to pay the back PAYE/NIC taxes at £500k a month and the £48million (or so) EBT tax problem at £2 million a year.

Ma ribs are burstin'

[Andy74]

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Beeb Radio reporting live that CW had offered to pay the back PAYE/NIC taxes at £500k a month and the £48million (or so) EBT tax problem at £2 million a year.

Probably not far from what they will have to agree if they want to see any of it.

[PaulSmith]

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Beeb Radio reporting live that CW had offered to pay the back PAYE/NIC taxes at £500k a month and the £48million (or so) EBT tax problem at £2 million a year.

Ma ribs are burstin'

So £8m a year in back taxes, plus all the other running costs against a back drop of a £10m shortfall already. In essence he thinks he could find £18m per year from their current turnover. Nuts.

[ancienthibby]

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Probably not far from what they will have to agree if they want to see any of it.

CW has already admitted that (before the crisis) they (RFC) already had a £10 million hole in their annual cash flow!!

[Seveno]

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So £8m a year in back taxes, plus all the other running costs against a back drop of a £10m shortfall already. In essence he thinks he could find £18m per year from their current turnover. Nuts.

Don't forget the season ticket money going out the door to Ticketus.

[richard_pitts]

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I think they will move. They are just not moving yet. They will wait until the Tribunal has made up its mind.

I have had the conversation with HMRC many tmes where the words "blood" and "stone" have been used. They are much more commercially aware than they used to be.

Quite how much they will move remains to be seen. I have never seen a payment plan of (as has been suggested) ten years, but then I have never seen a liability of this sum where there are insufficient assets to cover it, but plenty potential future income.

Thing for HMRC is if they do budge, a large number of other teams will use administration as a tax dodge. They have an eye on the bigger picture and it doesn#t involve Rangers

[CropleyWasGod]

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Thing for HMRC is if they do budge, a large number of other teams will use administration as a tax dodge. They have an eye on the bigger picture and it doesn#t involve Rangers

Oh, agreed. The Rangers case, in terms of EBT's and how much HMRC are willing to settle for, is critical to their treatment of other clubs in the same boat (or submarine). Pretty soon, there will be many club chairmen and HMRC executives reaching for either the champagne or the bottle of pills.

[ballengeich]

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Except banks don't secure mortgages against houses that about to collapse.

Actually they did. That's largely why we've had a recession.

[steakbake]

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Don't forget the season ticket money going out the door to Ticketus.

They'll need a full house every time they're at home and some kind of European run to be able to do that.

I think until now, I've always thought they'll limp on. Now though, I'm not so sure...

[Seveno]

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They'll need a full house every time they're at home and some kind of European run to be able to do that.

I think until now, I've always thought they'll limp on. Now though, I'm not so sure...

And with a much reduced players budget, performances will be poorer and we know what the Hun fans do when that happens.

[Seveno]

Richard Gordon as just said that the Ticketus deal amounts to 23,000 to 27,000 seats per season. Not one penny to Rangers until the crowd exceeds those figures.

I wonder if he sold the pies in advance as well ?

[Hibrandenburg]

What if the huns don't sell any season tickets and only sell on a match to match basis. Do Ticketus only get their dabs on season ticket money or do they get a slice of all ticket sales?

[CropleyWasGod]

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What if the huns don't sell any season tickets and only sell on a match to match basis. Do Ticketus only get their dabs on season ticket money or do they get a slice of all ticket sales?

In one of CW's pronouncements today..... not that I am inclined to believe him ... he said that he had "guaranteed" the sales to the tune of £23.5m. I guess he means he has underwritten them.

Which means, if the fans want to get some sort of revenge on him..... they should boycott all ST sales. That would sting....

[Hibrandenburg]

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In one of CW's pronouncements today..... not that I am inclined to believe him ... he said that he had "guaranteed" the sales to the tune of £23.5m. I guess he means he has underwritten them.

Which means, if the fans want to get some sort of revenge on him..... they should boycott all ST sales. That would sting....

Was sort of what I was thinking...shhhhh! :o)

[One Day Soon]

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It appears that the £18 million in cash from Ticketus was held in a solicitors client account with the instruction that it should not be released until Whyte took over Rangers. The deposit was sufficient to confirm to David Murray and Lloyds Bank Group that Whyte had the cash to take over the club. Whyte then paid £1 to Murray and the sale went through. Presumably the funds were then released to pay off Lloyds.

Whyte now had ownership of Rangers but lacked any working capital. He upped the advance sale to Ticketus from £18 to £24 million and also failed to pass on PAYE and National Insurance payments deducted from employees wages to HMRC and used the £7 million as working capital to finance the operation of the club. That was until the club was placed in administration with HMSO on his traill.

Whyte was now the preferred creditor with first call on the club's tangible assets (Ibrox and Murray Park) without putting in any of his own money (in the unlikely event that he has any).

In the event of Rangers winning the 'big tax case', the club emerges from administration debt free with Whyte in ownership. In the event that they lose the 'big tax case', Rangers are liquidated and Whyte ends up with Ibrox and Murray Park with all other creditors screwed. He can then start a debt free Pheonix and try and talk his way back into the SFA and SPL. Alternatively he can sell the real estate for development and pocket the cash leaving Ticketus to whistle for their £24 million in advance ticket sales for a liquidated club.

This could be the final nail in the coffin. HMRC are pretty hard headed and notoriously unwilling to concede ground or negotiate, but Her Majesty's Stationery Office make the tax boys look like pussycats. Someone's going to get their jotters.

[CropleyWasGod]

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Richard Gordon as just said that the Ticketus deal amounts to 23,000 to 27,000 seats per season. Not one penny to Rangers until the crowd exceeds those figures.

I wonder if he sold the pies in advance as well ?

The catering equipment is the subject of a security

[Twa Cairpets]

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This could be the final nail in the coffin. HMRC are pretty hard headed and notoriously unwilling to concede ground or negotiate, but Her Majesty's Stationery Office make the tax boys look like pussycats. Someone's going to get their jotters.

Aye, its a difficult paper trail they have to follow. Who is the ruler? Are the accounts set square? Do the administrators have the correct moral compass to guide them through, or is all this type of work just their staple diet? The good thing is that the Huns'll get a good ream.

[degenerated]

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The catering equipment is the subject of a security

To a company with a director who is also on the board of the parent company of ticketus. So in essence whyte has also sold the pies

[johnbc70]

So we know he lied when he originally denied he used the Ticketus money to buy the club, today he has admitted he did indeed use that money. Interview on Sky has said that is illegal to buy a business using the assets of that business, it is a breach of the Finance Assistance Rules.

I think it comes down to the fact that he paid £1 for the club, therefore he bought the club fair and square for £1 from SDM. SDM however would only sell him the club on the basis he proved his own wealth by depositing £18M into an account, this was done with the Ticketus money but SDM must have been under the impression it was his own money so he agreed to sell, when infact as we now know it was Rangers own season ticket money that was mortgaged to Ticketus. So SDM is the fool in this case as he sold him the club thinking he has his own wealth.

So looks like he bought the club in a fair manner, he has fooled SDM though as the money was not his in that account it was Rangers own money. So I think he has done nothing wrong in the actual buying of the club? The non payment of tax and national insurance etc is another matter though.

Its great entertainment though!

[DH1875]

Can someone explain to me why Ticketus are due all the money. If all their other creditors have to take a hit and are only paid pennies for pounds why don't Ticketus? Also, if they did go into liquidation how do Ticketus get the money back .

Lastly, why do people keep going on about Rangers selling Murray Park? Does Murray not actually own it and not Rangers?

[CropleyWasGod]

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So we know he lied when he originally denied he used the Ticketus money to buy the club, today he has admitted he did indeed use that money. Interview on Sky has said that is illegal to buy a business using the assets of that business, it is a breach of the Finance Assistance Rules.

I think it comes down to the fact that he paid £1 for the club, therefore he bought the club fair and square for £1 from SDM. SDM however would only sell him the club on the basis he proved his own wealth by depositing £18M into an account, this was done with the Ticketus money but SDM must have been under the impression it was his own money so he agreed to sell, when infact as we now know it was Rangers own season ticket money that was mortgaged to Ticketus. So SDM is the fool in this case as he sold him the club thinking he has his own wealth.

So looks like he bought the club in a fair manner, he has fooled SDM though as the money was not his in that account it was Rangers own money. So I think he has done nothing wrong in the actual buying of the club? The non payment of tax and national insurance etc is another matter though.

Its great entertainment though!

You really think so?

[ancienthibby]

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So we know he lied when he originally denied he used the Ticketus money to buy the club, today he has admitted he did indeed use that money. Interview on Sky has said that is illegal to buy a business using the assets of that business, it is a breach of the Finance Assistance Rules.

I think it comes down to the fact that he paid £1 for the club, therefore he bought the club fair and square for £1 from SDM. SDM however would only sell him the club on the basis he proved his own wealth by depositing £18M into an account, this was done with the Ticketus money but SDM must have been under the impression it was his own money so he agreed to sell, when infact as we now know it was Rangers own season ticket money that was mortgaged to Ticketus. So SDM is the fool in this case as he sold him the club thinking he has his own wealth.

So looks like he bought the club in a fair manner, he has fooled SDM though as the money was not his in that account it was Rangers own money. So I think he has done nothing wrong in the actual buying of the club? The non payment of tax and national insurance etc is another matter though.

Its great entertainment though!

That's how I see it too, John!

What remains amazing is that SDM apparently () did not know his own company assets were being used by an unconnected outside party to pay-off bank debts that he could not!!

[CropleyWasGod]

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Can someone explain to me why Ticketus are due all the money. If all their other creditors have to take a hit and are only paid pennies for pounds why don't Ticketus? Also, if they did go into liquidation how do Ticketus get the money back .

Lastly, why do people keep going on about Rangers selling Murray Park? Does Murray not actually own it and not Rangers?

Rangers aren't due anything to Ticketus.

Ticketus bought season tickets for the next 4 years (3 if you believe CW). They will then sell these to supporters, at a profit.

As for the liquidation question.... if these tickets are worthless in a future RFC scenario, they appear to have been underwritten by CW.

I thought RFC owns MP.... the admins seem to think so, too.