Generic Sevco / Rangers meltdown thread

[ancienthibby]

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So if SDM denies any knowledge of the Ticketus deal (regardless of whether or not he actually knew) then that "could" constitute deception?

The fact that the money had to actually be transfered into an account prior to the deal happening would probably leave SDM in the clear.

The question is though, if it is viewed as deception where would that put things?

Surely either Ticketus was completely out-foxed by an outsider (CW) who owned not one share in RFC at the time and/or someone inside RFC was compliant to at least one of these outside parties.

[jonty]

Tom English is online now discussing the 'crisis' at Rangers.

It's pretty simple. Liquidated them. Crisis over. Simples.

http://www.scotsman.com/scotland-on-sunday/webchats

[StevieC]

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But I doubt if SDM would want to have the deal reversed. Would you?

They are in administration so there's no deal reversing to be done, the administrators are effectively the current "owners".

[Peevemor]

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So if SDM denies any knowledge of the Ticketus deal (regardless of whether or not he actually knew) then that "could" constitute deception?

The fact that the money had to actually be transfered into an account prior to the deal happening would probably leave SDM in the clear.

The question is though, if it is viewed as deception where would that put things?

For me it's unimaginable that Ticketus would hand over £18m to Whyte (who at that time had no official position at Rangers) without contacting the club.

Do you think if I tell my bank manager that I'm going to buy microsoft, he'll lend me a few million quid in the meantime?

[CropleyWasGod]

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They are in administration so there's no deal reversing to be done, the administrators are effectively the current "owners".

Dunno about that. They are acting on behalf of the creditors and shareholders, of which CW/RFC Group are one.

[CropleyWasGod]

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Tom English is online now discussing the 'crisis' at Rangers.

It's pretty simple. Liquidated them. Crisis over. Simples.

http://www.scotsman.com/scotland-on-sunday/webchats

And write off most of the tax?

[jgl07]

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So if SDM denies any knowledge of the Ticketus deal (regardless of whether or not he actually knew) then that "could" constitute deception?

The fact that the money had to actually be transfered into an account prior to the deal happening would probably leave SDM in the clear.

The question is though, if it is viewed as deception where would that put things?

The whole point of David Murray selling the club shares for £1 was to get the Lloyds Bank Group overdraft cleared. Presumably Murray could have gone to Ticketus and obtained the cash himself to pay off Lloyds.

I get the impression that David Murray was shown the account balance and this persuaded him that Whyte was good for the money. I don't really see how Murray could be implicated here. He will presumably argue that he was conned by Whyte.

The other aspect of this deal is the pressure exerted by Lloyds Bank Group to push the deal through probably meant that the details were not checked as closely as they should have been.

[JimBHibees]

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For me it's unimaginable that Ticketus would hand over £18m to Whyte (who at that time had no official position at Rangers) without contacting the club.

Do you think if I tell my bank manager that I'm going to buy microsoft, he'll lend me a few million quid in the meantime?

More than likely they may have made the sum available to him to strengthen his bid to takeover on the proviso he would only get it if he was indeed successful in taking over the club.

[Peevemor]

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More than likely they may have made the sum available to him to strengthen his bid to takeover on the proviso he would only get it if he was indeed successful in taking over the club.

But it's been reported that Whyte showed Murray the balance in his account in order to get approval for the takeover.

[jonty]

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And write off most of the tax?

Are we likely to see any of it anyway?
the only way they'll generate enough to pay off the tax is if they're allowed ot continue in top flight football.
If they're allowed to continue in top flight football, then what message does that send to other football clubs?

"Overspend, dont pay your taxes? we'll let you pay it up over x years"

Get rid of them and set an example.

[EuanH78]

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Surely either Ticketus was completely out-foxed by an outsider (CW) who owned not one share in RFC at the time and/or someone inside RFC was compliant to at least one of these outside parties.

Seems like it. It's all getting very murky... I love it.

But, if CW's plan was to liquidate RFC because of the Big tax case before he ran out of money, why didnt he just concede it?

If CW is not owed anything, and ticketus are not owed anything (yet, being as they hold an 'asset' and not a debt. is this right?) then the taxman is the major creditor (even before the big tax case outcome, right?) surely this makes a CVA unlikely?

Also, if Rangers win the big tax case they can trade their way out of administration, albeit with reduced income from season tickets, much reduced wage bill and paying off their bills as they go. Win for everyone else in the SPL?

Or, they lose the tax case and liquidation is a racing certainty right? with no securities over Ibrox, Murray Park or anything else (except the catering equipment ) CW loses control of Rangers, potential for fraud cases, loads of muck raking and back biting from all involved. Ticketus become a creditor to be paid out of assets sold, along with HMRC + other small change (relatively) creditors. Ibrox and Murray park 'have' to be sold to highest bidder not neccessarily NewHun.co. Win, Win for everyone right?

[degenerated]

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The interesting point for me in that (other than that I am charging too little ) is the mention of Close Brothers, a finance company.

When I dug into the question of who had what security, the only charge mentioned at Companies House was one in favour of Close Brothers. It seems that they have security over the catering equipment at Ibrox.

How much is a pie-warmer worth?

from the daily ******

Close Brothers board member Ray Greenshields is chairman of a firm called Octopus VCT3, part of the company who own Ticketus.

[Seveno]

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The only flaw in all of the scenarios is the Ticketus deal. They will be looking for much of the season ticket income from Rangers for the next four years in the vent that the club continues or come after Whyte in the event that it does not.

No problem for Ticketus though. White claimed to have 'underwritten' the deal from his own wealth. Or should that be from the personal wealth of his clients in his Bournemouth stock rocking company ?

[lapsedhibee]

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Surely it is fraud to buy a company with its own assets, that is what he has done?

Not much of a crime, that. Isn't it what everyone who takes out a mortgage to buy a house does? Buy the house, using the house to get the money?

[Peevemor]

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Not much of a crime, that. Isn't it what everyone who takes out a mortgage to buy a house does? Buy the house, using the house to get the money?

Except banks don't secure mortgages against houses that about to collapse.

[Benny Brazil]

More murky revelations in the Daily Not-So-Ranger today:

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/ed...6908-23759285/

And sources close to the investigations believe there will be more revelations as the layers are peeled away from Whyte’s regime.

It’s understood administrators Paul Clark and David Whitehouse, and officials from HMRC, are shocked by some of the details already uncovered.

They are determined to get to the truth behind Rangers’ slide into administration, although it will take some time to follow all the paper trails.

Whyte, Betts and Gary Withey, who is still Rangers’ company secretary, will be asked to account for every penny.

Betts, 49, is credited with more than 30 years’ experience in banking and finance, and is a specialist in VAT and PAYE problems.

He formed Primary Asset Finance in 2005. The firm’s website boasted of providing “hassle-free solutions” and had a section titled “HMRC Arrears/Problems.

The site was shut down the day after Rangers went into administration.

Primary said on the website that they were sponsored by Close Brothers, a finance company.

Close Brothers board member Ray Greenshields is chairman of a firm called Octopus VCT3, part of the company who own Ticketus

The whole thing stinks - and I hope every single detail is uncovered and reported on.

[HFC 0-7]

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Are we likely to see any of it anyway?
the only way they'll generate enough to pay off the tax is if they're allowed ot continue in top flight football.
If they're allowed to continue in top flight football, then what message does that send to other football clubs?

"Overspend, dont pay your taxes? we'll let you pay it up over x years"

Get rid of them and set an example.

How much money would be made if they sold everything, land players, the lot? I would imagine they would make quite a bit of money.

[Hibs Class]

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But it's been reported that Whyte showed Murray the balance in his account in order to get approval for the takeover.

I thought the money was in a solicitor's account and was conditional on Whyte buying rangers, but that was then the balance which he showed the club and which he represented as his own money.

[ancienthibby]

SFA appoint Panel of inquiry to report within two weeks:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/17110781

Probably all Rainchurs supporters!

Also reported that one Brian Kennedy (remember him?) of Sale Sharks has expressed in acquiring RFC from the admins!

[jonty]

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How much money would be made if they sold everything, land players, the lot? I would imagine they would make quite a bit of money.

That would depend on who owns it.
If HMRC can claim it and sell it on, I doubt they'd get the amount they're due.
Who'd want a listed building in Govan, except a football team?

The housing market is still on it's arse - so they'd not get a lot for murray park (apart from the farmer, or golf club next door).
Opened 11 years ago (wikipedia is great ) it's hardly state of the art (East mains looks a lot bigger, for a start).

Could hibs.net club together and buy it


They might get something from a players firesale, but they'd all have to move down south or abroad - no-one up here would pay their wages.
I seriously doubt they'd get anything near 45 million.

[Andy74]

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Except banks don't secure mortgages against houses that about to collapse.

Where have you been the last few years?

[Peevemor]

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Where have you been the last few years?

Under a sturdy table with a stock of tinned food.

[jonty]

Some belters from Whyte

Craig Whyte statement on #Rangers: "I'm on the hook with Ticketus for 27.5m pounds in guarantees and cash"

Craig Whyte on #Rangers: Any suggestion that I've been involved in illegal activity is "clearly ludicrous"

Craig Whyte statement on #Rangers: "I regret not making the Ticketus arrangements more transparent"

Craig Whyte statement on #Rangers: if he regains control, he'll consider giving a majority stake to a supporters' foundation.

Craig Whyte statement on #Rangers: if HMRC was doing deals on tax with big companies like Vodafone, why so inflexible over Rangers?

[Barney McGrew]

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Also reported that one Brian Kennedy (remember him?) of Sale Sharks has expressed in acquiring RFC from the admins!

Ah yes, good old Mr Kennedy the double glazing salesman, ex-Stockport County owner and one time suitor for our own esteemed institution.

After what he did to Stockport, he and Craig Whyte would make good bedfellows.

[jonty]

http://news.stv.tv/scotland/west-cen...fund-takeover/

"Any suggestion that I am trying to make a fast buck or have indulged in illegal manoeuvring is clearly ludicrous."

[Benny Brazil]

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http://news.stv.tv/scotland/west-cen...fund-takeover/

The guy is starting to sound like Mad Vlad.

[ancienthibby]

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http://news.stv.tv/scotland/west-cen...fund-takeover/

So how can someone (CW) who was not a shareholder and not a director of RFC make a financial arrangement (that was concluded!) with an outside company to factor the assets (ST income) of RFC to another party??

CWG, CavG where are you?? Oh, and SDM MUST have known!

[Spike Mandela]

Administrators statement............

http://www.rangers.co.uk/news/footba...rticle/2618921

[CropleyWasGod]

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So how can someone (CW) who was not a shareholder and not a director of RFC make a financial arrangement (that was concluded!) with an outside company to factor the assets (ST income) of RFC to another party??

CWG, CavG where are you?? Oh, and SDM MUST have known!

I'm here ... just got back in for my daily fix of Hun..The Movie.

My position, m'lud, remains unchanged from earlier today. SDM must have known, and allowed the Ticketus/CW/Lloyds settlement to happen just to allow him to get out.

[ancienthibby]

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Administrators statement............

http://www.rangers.co.uk/news/footba...rticle/2618921

In other words, they are as confused (or refusing to reveal what they really know) as everyone else!

You couldnae make this up!