Generic Sevco / Rangers meltdown thread

[neilmartinrocks]

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Alex Salmond said yesterday that the most important thing was for Rangers to survive. Surely, abiding by the law and paying your taxes is far more important.

obviously when your an INSTITUTION of the calibre of the mighty RFC paying your taxes is just an option not a legal requirement. (sorry no sarcasm smillie)

[hibiedude]

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They surely can't be allowed to escape a tax bill when they are getting away with carrying on as normal paying players that they can no longer afford?

I could be wrong but after todays press conference a lot of football fans are going to be very angry because it does look it's business as usual at Ibrox with the fans and back room staff paying the costs

[Benny Brazil]

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I think you are mis-reading it. She says...the best outcome for the club and taxpayer. That doesn't seem to be putting pressure on to help RFC.

I am not so sure I am mis-reading it. Why should the best outcome for the club even come into the equation? They have basically defrauded the taxman for a number of years- why should they be assisted in this?

[pentlando]

If hibs terminated my season ticket contract I would not be back for the forseeable. I understand its the administrators decision, but hopefully in a few boycotts will force their hand to try something which punishes the club and not the fans.

[CropleyWasGod]

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Alex Salmond said yesterday that the most important thing was for Rangers to survive. Surely, abiding by the law and paying your taxes is far more important.

He also said that the tax had to be paid.

He's a politician. Safeguarding votes is more important than either. :0)

[CropleyWasGod]

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I am not so sure I am mis-reading it. Why should the best outcome for the club even come into the equation? They have basically defrauded the taxman for a number of years- why should they be assisted in this?

You said that pressure was being put on to save Rangers. I didn't see any suggestion at all in what she said.

[jonty]

IMHO its a shame when any long standing institution folds.

However, it doesn't mean that i'll be losing any sleep over this one.

• They need to repay the unpaid monies - including any penalties and interest.
• They need to be punished for the SPL/SFA for cheating in league and cup competitions. This should include fines, disqualification from cup and league wins/championships.
• Retrospective action should be taken for the entire duration of the 'cheating' or 'financial doping'
• They should be barred from this seasons competitions and all points removed as if they'd never existed.
• Current and previous directors and owners shouldnt escape punishment - including custodial sentences.
• They should be allowed to start at the very bottom of the league structure.
• SPL/SFA should introduce fair play in terms of ownership and complete transparency when it comes to accounts and audits. Any club not submitting prompt accounts should face an instant points deduction. This should be increased to suspension from league and demotion the next season.

It's time the SPL/SFA started playing hardball - there have been too many idiots using football clubs for their own gains/shady practices.
It needs cleaned up, and there's no time like the present.

[Andy74]

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If hibs terminated my season ticket contract I would not be back for the forseeable. I understand its the administrators decision, but hopefully in a few boycotts will force their hand to try something which punishes the club and not the fans.

I think I'd be demanding that they emptied guys that are on £7.5k per week, particularly those signed on the day they went into administration, before they started to ask me to pay again for something I'd paid for already.

Almost 300 people's ticket money would be used just to pay Cousin for this one week, or about 3,500 people's cash to pay him to the end of the season.

[Seveno]

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He also said that the tax had to be paid.

He's a politician. Safeguarding votes is more important than either. :0)

Well we all know that he will say and do anything to get some votes. Even if it means cosying up to the Unionists.

Actually, I realise that the last remark contained an inaccuracy. Just because the Rangers support swear loyalty to the Queen and the Union does not mean that they are in favour of the Union, any more than they are in favour of paying Her Majesty's tax collectors.

[Andy74]

Anyone know why HMRC haven't been able to do what they have done with Hearts and go straight for the winding up order to get their cash?

Is it because the amount is under appeal?

[marinello59]

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Alex Salmond said yesterday that the most important thing was for Rangers to survive. Surely, abiding by the law and paying your taxes is far more important.

Not as important as winning potential votes is to our Eck.

[Andy74]

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Rangers players just been told jobs are safe and DC looks likes he's safe as well, so it looks like a back room staff kull.

Season ticket holders contract looks to be terminated sometime today to generate more cash at home games.

Before anyone asks source.........twitter is giving updates on discussions.

Press conference 15.30 today

On closer look at the reporting of this it looks as though this is only a short term commitment and that all levels of jobs will be reviewed next week?

[CropleyWasGod]

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Anyone know why HMRC haven't been able to do what they have done with Hearts and go straight for the winding up order to get their cash?

Is it because the amount is under appeal?

The Big Tax Case is still in progress. The Tribunal hasn't made its decision yet, so there is no liability as yet

As for the other tax due, the PAYE etc since CW took over, it would have been a bad move IMHO to go for winding-up. In doing that, I reckon they would be kissing bye-bye to anything from the BTC.

In Hearts case, the WUO process is purely (again IMO) to shift Hearts to pay. Thus far it's worked. HMRC know, though, that in a winding-up they would get zip.

[IWasThere2016]

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Anyone know why HMRC haven't been able to do what they have done with Hearts and go straight for the winding up order to get their cash?

Is it because the amount is under appeal?

They've settled everytime - this latest occasion included.

[neilmartinrocks]

[blindsummit]

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IMHO its a shame when any long standing institution folds.

However, it doesn't mean that i'll be losing any sleep over this one.

• They need to repay the unpaid monies - including any penalties and interest.
• They need to be punished for the SPL/SFA for cheating in league and cup competitions. This should include fines, disqualification from cup and league wins/championships.
• Retrospective action should be taken for the entire duration of the 'cheating' or 'financial doping'
• They should be barred from this seasons competitions and all points removed as if they'd never existed.
• Current and previous directors and owners shouldnt escape punishment - including custodial sentences.
• They should be allowed to start at the very bottom of the league structure.
• SPL/SFA should introduce fair play in terms of ownership and complete transparency when it comes to accounts and audits. Any club not submitting prompt accounts should face an instant points deduction. This should be increased to suspension from league and demotion the next season.

It's time the SPL/SFA started playing hardball - there have been too many idiots using football clubs for their own gains/shady practices.
It needs cleaned up, and there's no time like the present.

I agree Jonty, these are all great rules and punishments. But this is Scotland and Rangers we are talking about and none of that will ever happen to them.

Ironically in the survival unscathed of Rangers (which I fully expect) I believe we are seeing the death blow for Scottish Football itself. The unvarnished rigging of the game will be blatantly there for all to see, and I fear it will so sicken fans of all other teams that they will give up the game for good, dealing a fatal blow to all other teams.

[ehf]

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Anyone know why HMRC haven't been able to do what they have done with Hearts and go straight for the winding up order to get their cash?

Is it because the amount is under appeal?

Being in administration protects them against all legal actions, including winding-up petitions.

[Andy74]

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I agree Jonty, these are all great rules and punishments. But this is Scotland and Rangers we are talking about and none of that will ever happen to them.

Ironically in the survival unscathed of Rangers (which I fully expect) I believe we are seeing the death blow for Scottish Football itself. The unvarnished rigging of the game will be blatantly there for all to see, and I fear it will so sicken fans of all other teams that they will give up the game for good, dealing a fatal blow to all other teams.

It is an important time, if the likes of Rangers and Hearts can carrying on being artificially better than the competition and nothing changes then what really is the point for anyone?

The SPL, and football in general needs to be very careful about how it treads in the next year or so.

[Mark79]

"Season ticket holders contract looks to be terminated sometime today to generate more cash at home games."


Am I being stupid but are they saying that no one will have a season ticket? Even if they have paid up front for one (unlikely for the unwashed I know). How does this work if he borrowed money against the season tickets?

[neilmartinrocks]

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"Season ticket holders contract looks to be terminated sometime today to generate more cash at home games."


Am I being stupid but are they saying that no one will have a season ticket? Even if they have paid up front for one (unlikely for the unwashed I know). How does this work if he borrowed money against the season tickets?

it means they have ripped off their own fans as well as the taxpayer.

[CropleyWasGod]

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"Season ticket holders contract looks to be terminated sometime today to generate more cash at home games."


Am I being stupid but are they saying that no one will have a season ticket? Even if they have paid up front for one (unlikely for the unwashed I know). How does this work if he borrowed money against the season tickets?

He borrowed money against future season tickets. He got £24m up front, on the basis that he would repay it from the proceeds of future season ticket income.

This latest move, to cancel current season tickets, will last as long as the administration.

[jonty]

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I agree Jonty, these are all great rules and punishments. But this is Scotland and Rangers we are talking about and none of that will ever happen to them.

Ironically in the survival unscathed of Rangers (which I fully expect) I believe we are seeing the death blow for Scottish Football itself. The unvarnished rigging of the game will be blatantly there for all to see, and I fear it will so sicken fans of all other teams that they will give up the game for good, dealing a fatal blow to all other teams.

I also expect for them to get off relatively scott-free.

An ideal time for the remaining SPL teams to tell the SPL to ram it, and setup their own rival leage, without Rangers (or Hearts) and implement financial fair play.

[Andy74]

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I also expect for them to get off relatively scott-free.

An ideal time for the remaining SPL teams to tell the SLP to ram it, and setup their own rival leage, without Rangers (or Hearts) and imlpement financial fair play.

At the last forum SL did confirm that fair play rules were now in place and teams wouldn't get an SPL licence if they didn't meet them. Not sure what they were exactly or the timescales.

[jonty]

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At the last forum SL did confirm that fair play rules were now in place and teams wouldn't get an SPL licence if they didn't meet them. Not sure what they were exactly or the timescales.

The rules clearly dont included paying wages, tax returns or filing accounts.

In that case, about as much use as a chocolate fireguard.

[jgl07]

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I agree Jonty, these are all great rules and punishments. But this is Scotland and Rangers we are talking about and none of that will ever happen to them.

Ironically in the survival unscathed of Rangers (which I fully expect) I believe we are seeing the death blow for Scottish Football itself. The unvarnished rigging of the game will be blatantly there for all to see, and I fear it will so sicken fans of all other teams that they will give up the game for good, dealing a fatal blow to all other teams.

You can see in the press the extent to which we are being softened up for Rangers to be readmitted. Geoff Brown of St Johnstone said as much in the Herald this morning. The annoying thing is that I fully expect Rangers FC to be liquidated at the end of the season and a new club to emerge and I think that this was Craig Whyte's plan all along. He could emerge as secured creditor with possession of Ibrox and probably Murray Park as well. He can then start from scratch free of all debts.

If this meant applying for membership of Division Three and working their way back to the SPL, there is not at lot that can be done about it but I think they will be readmitted directly into the SPL and this was what Whyte was banking on all along.

It may serve the short term interests of the SPL to take this course of action but in the long term it could prove fatal. Rangers would be back after three seasons anyway. The whole integrity of the League will be gone forever. Maybe it will simply expose the whole thing for the charade it has been all along. It will cause civil war between the SPL clubs and their supporters.

I will have nothing to do with the SPL if this happens. I will not go to matches again nor watch them on TV. I will boycott all sponsors associated with the SPL.

Maybe it will end up putting Scottish Football out of its misery.

[CropleyWasGod]

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You can see in the press the extent to which we are being softened up for Rangers to be readmitted. Geoff Brown of St Johnstone said as much in the Herald this morning. The annoying thing is that I fully expect Rangers FC to be liquidated at the end of the season and a new club to emerge and I think that this was Craig Whyte's plan all along. He could emerge as secured creditor with possession of Ibrox and probably Murray Park as well. He can then start from scratch free of all debts.

If this meant applying for membership of Division Three and working their way back to the SPL, there is not at lot that can be done about it but I think they will be readmitted directly into the SPL and this was what Whyte was banking on all along.

It may serve the short term interests of the SPL to take this course of action but in the long term it could prove fatal. Rangers would be back after three seasons anyway. The whole integrity of the League will be gone forever. Maybe it will simply expose the whole thing for the charade it has been all along. It will cause civil war between the SPL clubs and their supporters.

I will have nothing to do with the SPL if this happens. I will not go to matches again nor watch them on TV. I will boycott all sponsors associated with the SPL.

Maybe it will end up putting Scottish Football out of its misery.

Still to be ascertained.

FWIW, I don't think he is a creditor, but that's my gut talking at the moment.

[Geo_1875]

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Still to be ascertained.

FWIW, I don't think he is a creditor, but that's my gut talking at the moment.

He might not be a creditor but don't be surprised if he turns out to own most of RFC assets. He's got previous for that.

[CropleyWasGod]

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He might not be a creditor but don't be surprised if he turns out to own most of RFC assets. He's got previous for that.

If he isn't a creditor, he can't take part in the CVA. I can't see anyone involved in the CVA (Ticketus at £20m, HMRC at c. £50m) allowing the administrators to transfer the assets out of the company, at least not without a fair price being obtained.

What are Ibrox, Murray Park and the car park worth?

[ancienthibby]

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He might not be a creditor but don't be surprised if he turns out to own most of RFC assets. He's got previous for that.

So to define that position a bit more, CW did fund RFC at the start, which money was then used to pay-off LLoyds, switch the Floating charge to one of his companies along with the key assets of Ipox and Murray Park, then sell 3 years ST monies to Ticketus and then pay-off the loans he had put in place in the first place, along with a wee dividend which left RFC with no cash??

[Spike Mandela]

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I think you are mis-reading it. She says...the best outcome for the club and taxpayer. That doesn't seem to be putting pressure on to help RFC.

Come off it, iI think you are misreading it, it says Rangers fans vote for me. And yes it does put pressure on HMRC but she is insignificant enough to be ignored by them.