Generic Sevco / Rangers meltdown thread

[Lofarl]

Saw this gem on the raingurz forum

I'll be there.

I'll have no ticket (probably), no cash to buy one, and I'll have to travel 3 hours to get there.

But I'll be singing from outside the stadium if I have to, to show my support for this club.

Thats called being a drunk skint jakey, you drunk skint jakey.

[PaulSmith]

GrandmasterSuck from FF forum himself now on stv

[Cropley10]

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Nope. They have to get the agreement of 75% of Creditors (by value) before they can do this. HMRC's policy is not to agree to such arrangements, so that scenario isn't likely to happen.

So a pre-pack liquidation - shift it all over and start again. Bargaining on the SPL letting them?

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If he does that, HMRC will get a liquidator appointed, and he/she will recover those assets. That's a big no-no in insolvencies.

Nothing to do with the SPL, just the law.

But can he pre-pack?

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This article from SoS explains all the possible consequences.....

http://www.scotsman.com/scotland-on-...yond_1_2112897

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If Hibs went in to administration today it would be embarrassing in a business sense but I would have absolutely no fear of us going out of business. Administration is a cheats charter, a situation used by businesses sometime almost as a business tool. Rangers aren't ****ed their creditors are.

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I don't understand all the glee.

Huns are about to become debt free in return for accepting 2nd place in the league this year.

Or have I got the wrong end of the stick again?

No don't think you have - on the basis that the SPL let them come straight back in.

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If they lose the HMRC case, Administration will not save them. They will be liquidated and have to start all over again with applications to the league. Ibrox will become public property (probably owned by HMRC - i.e. you and me - so we could in theory go for a kick about on a weekday

So they can't pre-pack? Shift the assets and start a newco?

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Eh ? this isn't the SPL, SFA or TV panel they're dealing with ... it the HMRC. They'll squeeze them until the orange pips squeak

So they come after the newco, post liquidation?

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I have suspicions that Whyte is implementing a plan, a well thought out plan at that.

I think you might be right

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I have been trying to follow the Rangers recent financial woes but I am confused. As I understood it Whyte is now the major creditor, even though he appears to have paid off the bank (who were the biggest creditor) with season ticket "futures". If the tax bill comes in and they go into liquidation, the HMRC don't have first dibs- as one would assume- but Mr Whyte. In his position a less honourable man might welcome that outcome as now he could trouser any mullah that can be realised by sale of the assets i.e. Ibrox and environs, Murray Park etc. And since he paid nothing for the club and bought the debt with the clubs own future income, anything he gets is pure profit.

Administration, I would have thought, could scupper this perfect scam.

Where have I gone wrong here?

I don't think you have. He leveraged the buy out and paid a quid. He isn't going to sell the assets he plans to emerge at the other side debt free and with all the assets.

There is absolutely no room for any glee or rejoicing whatsoever. Rangers are about to pull off the biggest con in football.

[CropleyWasGod]

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I don't think you have. He leveraged the buy out and paid a quid. He isn't going to sell the assets he plans to emerge at the other side debt free and with all the assets.

There is absolutely no room for any glee or rejoicing whatsoever. Rangers are about to pull off the biggest con in football.

You are forgetting that he paid £18,000,001.

[Cropley10]

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You are forgetting that he paid £18,000,001.

And who walks off with Ticketus' money? Do you think he might have leveraged the buy-out using them?

Maybe they don't have the right security?

[CropleyWasGod]

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And who walks off with Ticketus' money? Do you think he might have leveraged the buy-out using them?

Maybe they don't have the right security?

See my earlier post on this (think it's on this page

[grunt]

Pat Nevin interviewed on Newsnight Scotland about Rangers.
Was he being interviewed in the car park at Easter Road?

[SonOfTortolano]

Does anyone think what Whyte is doing for Rangers Petrie did for Hibs?

BTW, I could not give a toss about Rangers....

[R'Albin]

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Sorry if already posted, but:

[CropleyWasGod]

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Does anyone think what Whyte is doing for Rangers Petrie did for Hibs?

BTW, I could not give a toss about Rangers....

It's more like Whyte doing for Rangers what Romanov...etc etc....

[SonOfTortolano]

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It's more like Whyte doing for Rangers what Romanov...etc etc....

Let's hope so.....

[Kaiser1962]

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...okay.

As someone else said... somewhere in the many threads.....a lot hinges on the values of Ibrox and Murray Park.

More than £18m?? Nae idea....

At the moment the HMRC "debt" is not even in play is it? It may come into play in the near future but, at the moment, the administration process (and any CVA) will only deal with the debts currently on the books will it not?

[Haymaker]

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At the moment the HMRC "debt" is not even in play is it? It may come into play in the near future but, at the moment, the administration process (and any CVA) will only deal with the debts currently on the books will it not?

Thats how I see it... the HMRC money isnt debt yet because it is being contested in the courts as to whether or not they owe it - Rangers say naw, Her Maj says aye.

Going into administration before the case is settled would just mean their current debts surely?

I dunno, its all too confusing to me!

[Newry Hibs]

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Thats how I see it... the HMRC money isnt debt yet because it is being contested in the courts as to whether or not they owe it - Rangers say naw, Her Maj says aye.

Going into administration before the case is settled would just mean their current debts surely?

I dunno, its all too confusing to me!

Listening to the Pompey situation - it said they are going to the High Court to apply for administration - I presume RFC need to also apply. I would like to think that it could be refused or HMRC may object or at least have their two pennies worth (or £49m) considered.

[macca70]

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At the moment the HMRC "debt" is not even in play is it? It may come into play in the near future but, at the moment, the administration process (and any CVA) will only deal with the debts currently on the books will it not?

I think this is whytes plan.

He can now say to HMRC that as they are now entering into admin, when HMRC win the court case, it's unlikely HMRC will get the full amount.

Rangers will try to make them an offer now for a much reduced amount before the 10 days are up, try and come to an out of court settlement for a fraction of the full amount.

Once they settle out of court for a lesser amount before 10 days, Rangers then pull the plug on the adminastration.

They then have a much discounted HMRC payment and don't have to follow through with the adminastration.

I reckon it all depends on HMRC, they should be acting on behalf of the Public and doing there best to get what they can.

When HMRC win and already knocked back an out of court settlement, Rangers will already be in adminastration and they'll probably not get the full amount due.

Rangers are attempting to blackmail HMRC by saying take the lesser amount now, if you don't, we go ahead with the adminastration and you don't get the full amount when you win anyway.

[alfie]

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I think this is whytes plan.

He can now say to HMRC that as they are now entering into admin, when HMRC win the court case, it's unlikely HMRC will get the full amount.

Rangers will try to make them an offer now for a much reduced amount before the 10 days are up, try and come to an out of court settlement for a fraction of the full amount.

Once they settle out of court for a lesser amount before 10 days, Rangers then pull the plug on the adminastration.

They then have a much discounted HMRC payment and don't have to follow through with the adminastration.

I reckon it all depends on HMRC, they should be acting on behalf of the Public and doing there best to get what they can.

When HMRC win and already knocked back an out of court settlement, Rangers will already be in adminastration and they'll probably not get the full amount due.

Rangers are attempting to blackmail HMRC by saying take the lesser amount now, if you don't, we go ahead with the adminastration and you don't get the full amount when you win anyway.

If HMRC win the case and ask for their money and RFC cant pay, cant the HMRC just call for them to be liquidated? Like they do all the time to HoMFC?

[Ozyhibby]

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I think this is whytes plan.

He can now say to HMRC that as they are now entering into admin, when HMRC win the court case, it's unlikely HMRC will get the full amount.

Rangers will try to make them an offer now for a much reduced amount before the 10 days are up, try and come to an out of court settlement for a fraction of the full amount.

Once they settle out of court for a lesser amount before 10 days, Rangers then pull the plug on the adminastration.

They then have a much discounted HMRC payment and don't have to follow through with the adminastration.

I reckon it all depends on HMRC, they should be acting on behalf of the Public and doing there best to get what they can.

When HMRC win and already knocked back an out of court settlement, Rangers will already be in adminastration and they'll probably not get the full amount due.

Rangers are attempting to blackmail HMRC by saying take the lesser amount now, if you don't, we go ahead with the adminastration and you don't get the full amount when you win anyway.

The problem with this strategy is that HMRC's hand are tied. They can't go accepting pence in the pound deals without setting a precedent they can't afford to set. It's like trying to persuade a blackjack dealer to twist on 18 on his own hand. He is not allowed to do it. It's the rules.

[Caversham Green]

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So a pre-pack liquidation - shift it all over and start again. Bargaining on the SPL letting them?



But can he pre-pack?









No don't think you have - on the basis that the SPL let them come straight back in.



So they can't pre-pack? Shift the assets and start a newco?



So they come after the newco, post liquidation?



I think you might be right



I don't think you have. He leveraged the buy out and paid a quid. He isn't going to sell the assets he plans to emerge at the other side debt free and with all the assets.

There is absolutely no room for any glee or rejoicing whatsoever. Rangers are about to pull off the biggest con in football.

I think a version of pre-pack administration is the route they are likely to take. There are some obstacles, but none seem insurmountable to me.

Financially the IP is duty-bound to get the best possible price from Newhun for the assets of Oldhun. That is all subjective, but usefully their accounts value freehold property at a "recoverable amount" of £112m. That would cover pretty much all of their debts, and HMRC would be justified in questioning why that amount isn't recovered by the administrator. Sadly, there are plenty of legitimate answers to that. Newhun however, would still have to find a fair chunk of cash to buy those assets.

On the footballing front Newhun would have neither a UEFA licence nor membership of the SPL (as I understand it the single share is non-transferable) which would mean no European football for the next three years and a requirement for the other clubs to vote for their membership. The UEFA thing could be remedied by Newhun actually being an existing club (as in Airdrie/Clydebank), the SPL membership could see a serious split between clubs and their fans, since I imagine the majority of clubs would vote for, while most fans would almost certainly be against. I could see Celtc fans in particular mounting a campaign, and it's one time I would back them all the way.

[Haymaker]

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I think a version of pre-pack administration is the route they are likely to take. There are some obstacles, but none seem insurmountable to me.

Financially the IP is duty-bound to get the best possible price from Newhun for the assets of Oldhun. That is all subjective, but usefully their accounts value freehold property at a "recoverable amount" of £112m. That would cover pretty much all of their debts, and HMRC would be justified in questioning why that amount isn't recovered by the administrator. Sadly, there are plenty of legitimate answers to that. Newhun however, would still have to find a fair chunk of cash to buy those assets.

On the footballing front Newhun would have neither a UEFA licence nor membership of the SPL (as I understand it the single share is non-transferable) which would mean no European football for the next three years and a requirement for the other clubs to vote for their membership. The UEFA thing could be remedied by Newhun actually being an existing club (as in Airdrie/Clydebank), the SPL membership could see a serious split between clubs and their fans, since I imagine the majority of clubs would vote for, while most fans would almost certainly be against. I could see Celtc fans in particular mounting a campaign, and it's one time I would back them all the way.

With out a doubt. Probably already writing to their board...

[YehButNoBut]

Looks to me like Rangers are doing this purely to force HMRC to reduce their tax bill or get next to hee haw.

So Rangers are trying to cheat the country out of the money it's due and why should they get away with it when others have paid in full, cheating barstewards.

[Steve20]

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Looks to me like Rangers are doing this purely to force HMRC to reduce their tax bill or get next to hee haw.

So Rangers are trying to cheat the country out of the money it's due and why should they get away with it when others have paid in full, cheating barstewards.

Surely any club in big debt could do this then? Is it really as simple as go into administration and they get away with not paying the full tax bill?

[mjhibby]

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SSN suggesting that Huns FC going into Adnim now to deny us law-abiding taxpayers from first creditor rights. Whyte would get first bite.

I really hope the HMRC go gunning for the Huns and pursure them to the grave :green grin Close that odious institution and remove the smell that has hung over Scottish football and society for decades

Whyte certainly seems to know what he is doing and like mad vlad has pulled the wool over the gers fans eyes and manouvered himself into a situation in where it seems he used their money to buy the club and yet he will be the main beneficiary if they go into administration.It sticks in my throat how anybody has any sympathy for them and hertz and well and dundee before them.They have spent beyond their means for years and now he thinks lets go into admin,write off a league title they werent going to win anyway and them come back with far less debt then no doubt they will invest in the team.So we now have well in 3rd having sacked so many players and staff due to boyle spending so much money and having wiped off £11m debt at a stroke and have come back stronger than ever.Now rangers will look to do the same and no doubt the mad one is looking on with interest the only difference with hertz is that he is the one owed the money.
Clubs like celtic and ourselves have looked after the pennies and while i dislike both of the infirm equally at least the leasser greens are run properly.The only good thing that may come out of this is hertz not getting the wallace money owed and put them in ever more brown stuff.Feel sorry for the other clubs owed money but surely gate money has to be ring fenced to other clubs as they cant get away with taking in the gate money and not paying utd.As usual the spl will no doubt bend over backwards to help rangers and we will see the worst of scottish football in the next few months.Sad times for scottish football when those that waste the most money still profit and small businessmen get shafted by them.sums up modern life does it not.

[Caversham Green]

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Surely any club in big debt could do this then? Is it really as simple as go into administration and they get away with not paying the full tax bill?

It's debatable whether the £50m debt is officially due yet since the tribunal's findings are not known. This administration could be seen as an attempt to pre-empt the debt, in which case it would not fall under the administrator's jurisdiction and a pre-pack as suggested above would potentially avoid it completely.

If this is the case, expect a robust response from HMRC.

[hibs0666]

The sale agreement between Murray and Whyte has been published on the rangers tax case website.

[CropleyWasGod]

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It's debatable whether the £50m debt is officially due yet since the tribunal's findings are not known. This administration could be seen as an attempt to pre-empt the debt, in which case it would not fall under the administrator's jurisdiction and a pre-pack as suggested above would potentially avoid it completely.

If this is the case, expect a robust response from HMRC.

THis is the bit that confuses me, Cav. If the pre-pack takes place before the HMRC debt is established, would HMRC challenge it (or the coming-out of it) in Court? Is that what happened at Portsmouth, the first time?

[TornadoHibby]

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Surely any club in big debt could do this then? Is it really as simple as go into administration and they get away with not paying the full tax bill?

Not really as it critically depends upon who has the debt to the (insolvent) company and what security the creditor(s) hold in respect of that debt and that in relation to the priority of theirs and other creditors' debts in relation to their respective debts!

On the face of it, in this case, it looks like the principal (first priority) debt due here is due to the owner or one (or more) of his companies and that may be why it appears that administration will enable the club assets to be retained within a new vehicle owned by the current owner with the pre administration liabilities being left in the old vehicle where they arose and for RFC (under the new vehicle) to "continue" to operate in the SPL (assuming they get the dispensations that have been highlighted in this and other threads as if it is a right).

[Caversham Green]

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THis is the bit that confuses me, Cav. If the pre-pack takes place before the HMRC debt is established, would HMRC challenge it (or the coming-out of it) in Court? Is that what happened at Portsmouth, the first time?

I think HMRC can oppose the granting of an administration order - pretty sure they tried but failed with Pompey and they also unsuccessfully opposed the appointment of the specific IP who eventually acted. I would imagine they have stronger grounds this time, given the high profile the case has received and the reported amount of the contested debt.

[Smidge]

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It's debatable whether the £50m debt is officially due yet since the tribunal's findings are not known. This administration could be seen as an attempt to pre-empt the debt, in which case it would not fall under the administrator's jurisdiction and a pre-pack as suggested above would potentially avoid it completely.

If this is the case, expect a robust response from HMRC.

I might be wrong, and my source for this is the excellent rangerstaxcase.com, but the c£50m debt to HMRC has already been assessed and established. They have served a demand for that amount - being tax due and interest. The First Tier Tribunal is Rangers' first attempt to appeal that demand on the basis that the scheme is legitimate within the legislation that applied at the time. The FTT will then rule on that appeal and potentially assess a further penalty on top of the c£50m - which is where, I think, Craig Whyte gets the potential total liability of £75m.

For all intents and purposes, HMRC will strongly argue that this can be taken into account when Rangers are trying to get a CVA agreed and their standard policy is not to agree. They might even be in a position to object to administration and, in fact, could potentially persuade a court to proceed straight to liquidation. In that circumstance, Rangers' SPL membership could effectively be put up for sale by the IP, which is where a Newco Huns may come into the picture, the only problem being that they wouldn't necessarily have a stadium to play in!

If there is any hint that HMRC could be potentially be excluded from the process, then I would expect a protracted legal battle to take place. This would not provide the certainty that Whyte is clearly pleading for and I wouldn't expect HMRC or the courts to take much notice of the 31st March deadline to have their financial affairs in order.

[GloryGlory]

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Listening to the Pompey situation - it said they are going to the High Court to apply for administration - I presume RFC need to also apply. I would like to think that it could be refused or HMRC may object or at least have their two pennies worth (or £49m) considered.

Not by any means an expert, but if Whyte is pre-empting the tax bill by trying to shield whatever assets Rangers have (and they are surely considerable - Ibrox and Murray Park not least), then surely HMRC have a case to put to Court that the administration is purely a ploy to prevent the collection of tax due.

It seems that Whyte has paid £1 for the club and may yet walk away with £Ms as secured creditor, while depriving the public purse of its due (as well as other smaller creditors having to accept either nothing or at best peanuts). Meanwhile New Gers Ltd gets resurrected under new ownership with assets mostly intact and debt free to carry on as if nothing happened.

What a bunch of shysters if that is what transpires!

Any new club should be relegated to the juniors, with a 50 point handicap for the next 10 seasons!!!!

[Caversham Green]

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I might be wrong, and my source for this is the excellent rangerstaxcase.com, but the c£50m debt to HMRC has already been assessed and established. They have served a demand for that amount - being tax due and interest. The First Tier Tribunal is Rangers' first attempt to appeal that demand on the basis that the scheme is legitimate within the legislation that applied at the time. The FTT will then rule on that appeal and potentially assess a further penalty on top of the c£50m - which is where, I think, Craig Whyte gets the potential total liability of £75m.

For all intents and purposes, HMRC will strongly argue that this can be taken into account when Rangers are trying to get a CVA agreed and their standard policy is not to agree. They might even be in a position to object to administration and, in fact, could potentially persuade a court to proceed straight to liquidation. In that circumstance, Rangers' SPL membership could effectively be put up for sale by the IP, which is where a Newco Huns may come into the picture, the only problem being that they wouldn't necessarily have a stadium to play in!

If there is any hint that HMRC could be potentially be excluded from the process, then I would expect a protracted legal battle to take place. This would not provide the certainty that Whyte is clearly pleading for and I wouldn't expect HMRC or the courts to take much notice of the 31st March deadline to have their financial affairs in order.

If you're right (and I think you probably are) that strengthens HMRC's case immeasurably but RFC may be hanging on to the argument that the debt is still in dispute (hence the appeal).

Re the stadium, if Newhun can afford to pay more than a developer then they will get it. The £112m valuation is for current use and the market of large Glasgow-based football clubs in need of a stadium is not huge. I do wonder if Whyte really is a front man and his mission was to get rid of the debt and investigation problems before the real buyer steps up to save the day....

I didn't think I'd ever say this, but I'd love HMRC to win their case.