Great Hibernian Chairmen

[Kaiser_Sauzee]

Harry Swan
Tom Hart
Rod Petrie

[--------]

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Harry Swan
Tom Hart
Rod Petrie

ERm, I totally agree about Harry Swan, and Rod's certainly growing mightily in my esteem as the weeks and months go by, but I'm old enough to remember Tom Hart....





.... and, NO.

[CropleyWasGod]

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ERm, I totally agree about Harry Swan, and Rod's certainly growing mightily in my esteem as the weeks and months go by, but I'm old enough to remember Tom Hart....





.... and, NO.

I am interested in why you say this, Doddie. Not disagreeing, just intrigued.

I think I am probably the same generation as you. As such, I was probably too young to have any opinion of anything other than what I saw on the park. That, of course, was the Tornadoes. In my naive, teenage way I therefore associated Hart with the team... ergo he was "good".

[Kaiser_Sauzee]

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ERm, I totally agree about Harry Swan, and Rod's certainly growing mightily in my esteem as the weeks and months go by, but I'm old enough to remember Tom Hart....





.... and, NO.

Really? I'm thinking of Turnbull's Tornado's and George Best.

[--------]

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I am interested in why you say this, Doddie. Not disagreeing, just intrigued.

I think I am probably the same generation as you. As such, I was probably too young to have any opinion of anything other than what I saw on the park. That, of course, was the Tornadoes. In my naive, teenage way I therefore associated Hart with the team... ergo he was "good".

1. Most of the Tornadoes were at ER before either Hart or Turnbull arrived.

2. Hart fell out with, and sacked, the man who assembled those players - Willie MacFarlane.

3. Hart owned a building firm - that's where his money came from. I have it on good authority that not only was he 'at it' in a big way over government and council contracts, he was an absolute beast to work for and a bully to those who did work for him. NOT a nice man.

4. We had 3-4 years of reasonable success after he arrived. If that sounds grudging, bear in mind that we had some of the best players in Scotland at the time - Brownlie, Schaedler, Stanton, Blackley, Edwards, Gordon, Cropley, Duncan, Bremner were all good enough to play for Scotland (even if one or two didn't) and the ones I've left out, like Jimmy O'Rourke, Bobby Smith, Jim Black, would walk into any SPL team today as first picks for the first team. We should have done much better.

5. Hart made big promises, as did Turnbull. None of those promises were fulfilled. When he arrived, we were the third or fourth strongest club in the League, with good players, playing regularly in Europe, but with a ground that badly needed upgrading. When he died, he left us under-financed, struggling with relegation, a team of (at best) moderate players, in a stadium that urgently needed basic repairs, never mind an upgrade.

IMO Tom Hart's mismanagement of the club laid the seeds for our subsequent decline, first under Kenny Waugh, then under the Chuckle Brothers, that left us vulnerable to the Mercer takeover bid.

Money was wasted on big-name signings (Harper and Munro the main ones) who failed to deliver the goods.

Loyal players who had the good of the club at heart were treated very badly.

Hart wanted to be seen as the benefactor to whom glory and honour should be paid; he didn't like it when other people got the credit for success. He was owner and chairman, and therefore could whatever he wanted to do - no one could control him.

IMO Tom Hart wasn't fit to clean the shoes of Sir Tom Farmer, and under STF and Rod Petrie we've prospered much better than we ever did under Hart. Maybe not as spectacularly, but we have the training ground we needed, we have the stadium appropriate to our place in the game, and we have sound finances and a real sense of steady progress over 20 years.

Hart was of the same ilk as Romanov - just not as good at the game. I wouldn't want him back under ANY circumstances.

[LHWM]

The story supposedly goes

John Robertson: "I'd like to talk to my brother Chris before I sign"

Tom Hart: "Sign now or not at all"

John Robertson: "I'm not signing then"

[--------]

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The story supposedly goes

John Robertson: "I'd like to talk to my brother Chris before I sign"

Tom Hart: "Sign now or not at all"

John Robertson: "I'm not signing then"

That too.

You missed out the next line:

Tom Hart: "Then f*** off."

[Hibs Class]

In Tom Hart's defence, I reckon he did have Hibs interests at heart and that was seen in, for example, the way he stood up to the SFA on televising football on which I think he was proved right. IIRC he also was one of the first to bring in shirt sponsorship with the Bukta deal.

He was also of his time, in that back in the 70s local businessmen owning clubs was pretty much the norm. Whilst I agree he bears little comparison to Petrie, such comparison would be unfair. It is also a little unfair to compare him to Romanov.

[iwasthere1972]

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That too.

You missed out the next line:

Tom Hart: "Then f*** off."

Read somewhere that Robertson was only offered £55 a week. It was a long time ago but still peanuts compared to what the average weekly wage was at the time.

I believe that Tom Hart also told Jock Stein to f*** off.

[greenginger]

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1. Most of the Tornadoes were at ER before either Hart or Turnbull arrived.

2. Hart fell out with, and sacked, the man who assembled those players - Willie MacFarlane.

3. Hart owned a building firm - that's where his money came from. I have it on good authority that not only was he 'at it' in a big way over government and council contracts, he was an absolute beast to work for and a bully to those who did work for him. NOT a nice man.

4. We had 3-4 years of reasonable success after he arrived. If that sounds grudging, bear in mind that we had some of the best players in Scotland at the time - Brownlie, Schaedler, Stanton, Blackley, Edwards, Gordon, Cropley, Duncan, Bremner were all good enough to play for Scotland (even if one or two didn't) and the ones I've left out, like Jimmy O'Rourke, Bobby Smith, Jim Black, would walk into any SPL team today as first picks for the first team. We should have done much better.

5. Hart made big promises, as did Turnbull. None of those promises were fulfilled. When he arrived, we were the third or fourth strongest club in the League, with good players, playing regularly in Europe, but with a ground that badly needed upgrading. When he died, he left us under-financed, struggling with relegation, a team of (at best) moderate players, in a stadium that urgently needed basic repairs, never mind an upgrade.

IMO Tom Hart's mismanagement of the club laid the seeds for our subsequent decline, first under Kenny Waugh, then under the Chuckle Brothers, that left us vulnerable to the Mercer takeover bid.

Money was wasted on big-name signings (Harper and Munro the main ones) who failed to deliver the goods.

Loyal players who had the good of the club at heart were treated very badly.

Hart wanted to be seen as the benefactor to whom glory and honour should be paid; he didn't like it when other people got the credit for success. He was owner and chairman, and therefore could whatever he wanted to do - no one could control him.

IMO Tom Hart wasn't fit to clean the shoes of Sir Tom Farmer, and under STF and Rod Petrie we've prospered much better than we ever did under Hart. Maybe not as spectacularly, but we have the training ground we needed, we have the stadium appropriate to our place in the game, and we have sound finances and a real sense of steady progress over 20 years.

Hart was of the same ilk as Romanov - just not as good at the game. I wouldn't want him back under ANY circumstances.

We are all entitled to our opinion Doddie so here are a couple of mine on your post.
1) Names Edwards, Gordon, Herriot and Black spring to mind.
2) Willie McFarlane never got another job in senior football management.
3)Hart retired from the building trade in 1973 although his Firm still prospers.
4) I don't know what you mean by "at it"but I think you are talking bull****.His firm never tendered for any Government Contracts, I should know, I worked for the company !
5)Hibs finished 12th in the league in 1969. When Tom Hart died in 1982 the Club owed him over £200,000, that's about £2 million today.

Tom Hart was Club owner for over 10 years and as chairman/managing director did'nt take a penny in wages for the roll nor did any of the other directors in his time as chairman. Bit different today is'nt it Doddie ?

[brog]

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1. Most of the Tornadoes were at ER before either Hart or Turnbull arrived.

2. Hart fell out with, and sacked, the man who assembled those players - Willie MacFarlane.

3. Hart owned a building firm - that's where his money came from. I have it on good authority that not only was he 'at it' in a big way over government and council contracts, he was an absolute beast to work for and a bully to those who did work for him. NOT a nice man.

4. We had 3-4 years of reasonable success after he arrived. If that sounds grudging, bear in mind that we had some of the best players in Scotland at the time - Brownlie, Schaedler, Stanton, Blackley, Edwards, Gordon, Cropley, Duncan, Bremner were all good enough to play for Scotland (even if one or two didn't) and the ones I've left out, like Jimmy O'Rourke, Bobby Smith, Jim Black, would walk into any SPL team today as first picks for the first team. We should have done much better.

5. Hart made big promises, as did Turnbull. None of those promises were fulfilled. When he arrived, we were the third or fourth strongest club in the League, with good players, playing regularly in Europe, but with a ground that badly needed upgrading. When he died, he left us under-financed, struggling with relegation, a team of (at best) moderate players, in a stadium that urgently needed basic repairs, never mind an upgrade.

IMO Tom Hart's mismanagement of the club laid the seeds for our subsequent decline, first under Kenny Waugh, then under the Chuckle Brothers, that left us vulnerable to the Mercer takeover bid.

Money was wasted on big-name signings (Harper and Munro the main ones) who failed to deliver the goods.

Loyal players who had the good of the club at heart were treated very badly.

Hart wanted to be seen as the benefactor to whom glory and honour should be paid; he didn't like it when other people got the credit for success. He was owner and chairman, and therefore could whatever he wanted to do - no one could control him.

IMO Tom Hart wasn't fit to clean the shoes of Sir Tom Farmer, and under STF and Rod Petrie we've prospered much better than we ever did under Hart. Maybe not as spectacularly, but we have the training ground we needed, we have the stadium appropriate to our place in the game, and we have sound finances and a real sense of steady progress over 20 years.

Hart was of the same ilk as Romanov - just not as good at the game. I wouldn't want him back under ANY circumstances.

I really don't want to get into all the above detail but, much as I respect Doddie as a poster, I think this is an unfortunate post & frankly it's ridiculous & insulting to even compare Tom Hart to Romanov. There's one obvious & important difference, Tom H was a great Hibs fan & indeed he died supporting his team at Pittodrie. I also know that Tom H never made a penny from Hibs & indeed financed the Best deal largely from his own pocket. The Harper deal has been much discussed over the years but at the time Hibs fans were ecstatic, remember this was highest fee paid by any Scottish club. This was Tom Hart backing his manager, Eddie Turnbull, something again we would all wish a chairman to do.
From memory, Willie Mac was only manager at ER for a season or 2 & the likes of O'Rourke & Stanton were at the club long before he arrived. Turnbull of course bought Edwards & Gordon for the combined total of £25,000 so I think Willie's influence is rather overstated. Again, at the time Hibs fans were delighted when Turnbull was brought in & although there's no doubt the team ultimately underachieved, many of their performances, including a certain New Year's Day, will live forever in my memory.

[Kaiser_Sauzee]

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The story supposedly goes

John Robertson: "I'd like to talk to my brother Chris before I sign"

Tom Hart: "Sign now or not at all"

John Robertson: "I'm not signing then"

And the rest, as they say, is history.

[banarc7062]

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Really? I'm thinking of Turnbull's Tornado's and George Best.

The man put his money where his mouth was for Hibs. IMO very good for Hibs

[.Sean.]

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And the rest, as they say, is history.

Before my time but even I often wonder what could have been had signed...

[Phil D. Rolls]

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The story supposedly goes

John Robertson: "I'd like to talk to my brother Chris before I sign"

Tom Hart: "Sign now or not at all"

John Robertson: "I'm not signing then"

Also, "you can buy your own boots Mr. Strachan"

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Read somewhere that Robertson was only offered £55 a week. It was a long time ago but still peanuts compared to what the average weekly wage was at the time.

I believe that Tom Hart also told Jock Stein to f*** off.

No bad thing given the way Jock treated us.

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We are all entitled to our opinion Doddie so here are a couple of mine on your post.
1) Names Edwards, Gordon, Herriot and Black spring to mind.
2) Willie McFarlane never got another job in senior football management.
3)Hart retired from the building trade in 1973 although his Firm still prospers.
4) I don't know what you mean by "at it"but I think you are talking bull****.His firm never tendered for any Government Contracts, I should know, I worked for the company !
5)Hibs finished 12th in the league in 1969. When Tom Hart died in 1982 the Club owed him over £200,000, that's about £2 million today.

Tom Hart was Club owner for over 10 years and as chairman/managing director did'nt take a penny in wages for the roll nor did any of the other directors in his time as chairman. Bit different today is'nt it Doddie ?

He didn't need to take wages, which of course are taxable, he had his own turnstyle at the ground.

[hibbybrian]

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We are all entitled to our opinion Doddie so here are a couple of mine on your post.
1) Names Edwards, Gordon, Herriot and Black spring to mind.
2) Willie McFarlane never got another job in senior football management.
3)Hart retired from the building trade in 1973 although his Firm still prospers.
4) I don't know what you mean by "at it"but I think you are talking bull****.His firm never tendered for any Government Contracts, I should know, I worked for the company !
5)Hibs finished 12th in the league in 1969. When Tom Hart died in 1982 the Club owed him over £200,000, that's about £2 million today.

Tom Hart was Club owner for over 10 years and as chairman/managing director did'nt take a penny in wages for the roll nor did any of the other directors in his time as chairman. Bit different today is'nt it Doddie ?

Just to clarify a few points:

1 - Jim Black was signed by Willie Mac

Willie's team had - Baines, Brownlie, Schaedler, Blackley, Black, Stanton, Graham, O'Rourke, McBride, Cropley & Duncan.

Willie resigned due to Tom Hart insisting on selecting two of the fowards against Liverpool http://www.hibsprogrammes.co.uk/williemacfarlane.html

2 - Tom Hart replaced Willie with Dave Ewing http://www.hibsprogrammes.co.uk/dave%20ewing.html

5 - Hibs indeed finished 12th in the League in 1969 - under Bob Shankley - the next season, Willie's only complete season in charge, and with William Harrower as Chairman, Hibs finished 3rd, 1 point behind Rangers. Hibs finished 12th in the following season under Dave Ewing.

I certainly don't dispute Tom Hart's desire to get Hibs back to the top, however I don't accept that all his decisions were good ones

[Phil D. Rolls]

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ERm, I totally agree about Harry Swan, and Rod's certainly growing mightily in my esteem as the weeks and months go by, but I'm old enough to remember Tom Hart....





.... and, NO.

Where do you stand on his opinion of Joe Harper?

[hibbybrian]

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Where do you stand on his opinion of Joe Harper?

Doddie has to sit when "his" name is mentioned

[LeithBoozy]

I don't think we have ever had a Chairman who has not lost money of his own. When you are in trouble you need good people around you. Hibs have been lucky over the years. God bless them all.

[greenginger]

I certainly don't dispute Tom Hart's desire to get Hibs back to the top, however I don't accept that all his decisions were good ones [/QUOTE]



I can agree whole heartedly with that !

[Phil D. Rolls]

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I don't think we have ever had a Chairman who has not lost money of his own. When you are in trouble you need good people around you. Hibs have been lucky over the years. God bless them all.

Nice sentiment, if a touch naive. People invest in football clubs to get something back for themselves - whether it be rights to land, or the thrill of seeing their coupon plastered over the papers, or just the whole power trip.

We need them, and they need us. I don't think many of them are "good" people though.

[--------]

When I posted I expected a bit of flak.

I suppose it's possible that of all the various building contractors around in the 1960's, 70's and 80's Hart was honest and above board and never trimmed a contract or failed to deliver according to specification. I concede he didn't do work directly for the government. he did do so for Edinburgh Council.

And having lived in two different councils flats built by his firm in Wester Hailes, I'm absolutely assured that if HE wasn't 'at it', then SOMEONE in the firm certainly was.

Put simply, I'd point to the state of the club when he took over, and the state of the club when he died.

Maybe comparing him to Romanov might be considered an insult. Others might very well say that. I couldn't possibly comment beyond what I've already said.

Putting him in the same list as Harry Swan, though?

Now that IS an insult - to Harry Swan.

[brog]

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Just to clarify a few points:

1 - Jim Black was signed by Willie Mac

Willie's team had - Baines, Brownlie, Schaedler, Blackley, Black, Stanton, Graham, O'Rourke, McBride, Cropley & Duncan.

Willie resigned due to Tom Hart insisting on selecting two of the fowards against Liverpool http://www.hibsprogrammes.co.uk/williemacfarlane.html

2 - Tom Hart replaced Willie with Dave Ewing http://www.hibsprogrammes.co.uk/dave%20ewing.html

5 - Hibs indeed finished 12th in the League in 1969 - under Bob Shankley - the next season, Willie's only complete season in charge, and with William Harrower as Chairman, Hibs finished 3rd, 1 point behind Rangers. Hibs finished 12th in the following season under Dave Ewing.

I certainly don't dispute Tom Hart's desire to get Hibs back to the top, however I don't accept that all his decisions were good ones

I had forgotten that Willie signed Jim Black but from memory the only other 2 Tornadoes signed by Willie were Arthur Duncan & Erich Schaedler. As I said in my earlier post I think Doddie over estimated Willie's influence on that team.
Again, I don't think there's a chairman or manager in the history of the game who only made good decisions but there was no doubting Tom H's love for all things Hibs. He would defend Hibs against anyone & I was on the premises the night he threw bags of money down the stairs at the Rangers' directors & kicked them out of ER. He was without doubt a hard man but my experience was that he was extremely popular at ER, especially with the players who he treated very well. Tom also introduced shirt sponsorship & undersoil heating to Hibs & Scotland, remember the fights over the Bukta shirts?
Finally, re FR's assertion ( probably a joke ) that Tom had his own turnstile I can personally testify this as nonsense. This myth existed long before TH was involved with Hibs, it used to be the Gordon Smith turnstile & no doubt it was Jimmy Dunn's or McColl's back in the day.

[Kaiser_Sauzee]

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[/B]


I had forgotten that Willie signed Jim Black but from memory the only other 2 Tornadoes signed by Willie were Arthur Duncan & Erich Schaedler. As I said in my earlier post I think Doddie over estimated Willie's influence on that team.
Again, I don't think there's a chairman or manager in the history of the game who only made good decisions but there was no doubting Tom H's love for all things Hibs. He would defend Hibs against anyone & I was on the premises the night he threw bags of money down the stairs at the Rangers' directors & kicked them out of ER. He was without doubt a hard man but my experience was that he was extremely popular at ER, especially with the players who he treated very well. Tom also introduced shirt sponsorship & undersoil heating to Hibs & Scotland, remember the fights over the Bukta shirts?
Finally, re FR's assertion ( probably a joke ) that Tom had his own turnstile I can personally testify this as nonsense. This myth existed long before TH was involved with Hibs, it used to be the Gordon Smith turnstile & no doubt it was Jimmy Dunn's or McColl's back in the day.

Please expand on this. What happened?!

[MSK]

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We are all entitled to our opinion Doddie so here are a couple of mine on your post.
1) Names Edwards, Gordon, Herriot and Black spring to mind.
2) Willie McFarlane never got another job in senior football management.
3)Hart retired from the building trade in 1973 although his Firm still prospers.
4) I don't know what you mean by "at it"but I think you are talking bull****.His firm never tendered for any Government Contracts, I should know, I worked for the company !
5)Hibs finished 12th in the league in 1969. When Tom Hart died in 1982 the Club owed him over £200,000, that's about £2 million today.

Tom Hart was Club owner for over 10 years and as chairman/managing director did'nt take a penny in wages for the roll nor did any of the other directors in his time as chairman. Bit different today is'nt it Doddie ?

I remember a building company called Hart Builders ..blue vans & the words Hart in yellow writing ..?

[--------]

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We are all entitled to our opinion Doddie so here are a couple of mine on your post.
1) Names Edwards, Gordon, Herriot and Black spring to mind.
2) Willie McFarlane never got another job in senior football management.
3)Hart retired from the building trade in 1973 although his Firm still prospers.
4) I don't know what you mean by "at it"but I think you are talking bull****.His firm never tendered for any Government Contracts, I should know, I worked for the company !
5)Hibs finished 12th in the league in 1969. When Tom Hart died in 1982 the Club owed him over £200,000, that's about £2 million today.

Tom Hart was Club owner for over 10 years and as chairman/managing director did'nt take a penny in wages for the roll nor did any of the other directors in his time as chairman. Bit different today is'nt it Doddie ?

As said, Jim Black was at ER before Hart took over. The other three were Turnbull's first signings, and very good signings they were, but they didn't represent a huge investment by Tom Hart. ET signed them for less than £40,000 the lot.

Willie MacFarlane wasn't the only guy I knew who found it hard to get work after falling out with Tom Hart.

TH did indeed retire from the firm in 1973. He was then free to devote his whole time to running his 'beloved' Hibs. Strangely enough, I'd say that his 'beloved' Hibs started to go downhill rather quickly from - let me see - 1973?

I would FAR rather have paid directors responsible to shareholders running the club than a dictator like Hart. Argue it how you will, he left the club worse off than he found it - MUCH worse off.

[jdships]

I certainly don't dispute Tom Hart's desire to get Hibs back to the top, however I don't accept that all his decisions were good ones [/QUOTE]


Agree totally with that .
Hr was a "Hib's man" through and through but possibly was ill advised on a number of occasions - I don't really know and don't suppose we ever will.
However, when you were in his company he certainly talked the talk aka Hibs.
Not quire sure what "Doddie" means when he says he was "hard at it "
Can't ever remember him or his firm being investigated
Personally , given the financial restraints at the time they were/have been in office I would plump for Swan or Petrie

[Luna_Asylum]

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As said, Jim Black was at ER before Hart took over. The other three were Turnbull's first signings, and very good signings they were, but they didn't represent a huge investment by Tom Hart. ET signed them for less than £40,000 the lot.

Willie MacFarlane wasn't the only guy I knew who found it hard to get work after falling out with Tom Hart.

TH did indeed retire from the firm in 1973. He was then free to devote his whole time to running his 'beloved' Hibs. Strangely enough, I'd say that his 'beloved' Hibs started to go downhill rather quickly from - let me see - 1973?

I would FAR rather have paid directors responsible to shareholders running the club than a dictator like Hart. Argue it how you will, he left the club worse off than he found it - MUCH worse off.

league positions

1974 second
1975 second
1976 third
1977 fourth
1978 fourth

[--------]

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league positions

1974 second
1975 second
1976 third
1977 fourth
1978 fourth

And the financial situation developing during those years?

[Luna_Asylum]

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And the financial situation developing during those years?

I honestly don't know. What happened?