Girl, 14 Stripped and Beaten at the Omni Centre

[MSK]

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No, i knew that was his own choice of thread title..

Ok ..im lost ..in fact ..i was lost at the start ...perhaps rather than both spoil this thread you may respond better in the pm ive sent you ...oh aye ..

[IndieHibby]

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One of the things I am starting to realise is that there is a difficult balancing act between fairness to the offenders, who have probably never had a chance, as you say.

On the other hand there is also a need for people who behave themselves to see justice done, other kids have harrowing upbringings and yet are able to rise above it.

Maybe the start of things is to try and bring the burgeoning underclass back into mainstream society (which kind of contradicts my free will "argument").

Since I started teaching, I have found myself in the same quandry you find yourself in here, FR, on many occasions:

How do I reconcile my hatred for state interference in the family, with my almost concrete conviction that some people are not fit to be parents and should a) be prevented from having children and/or b) should have their kids taken away from them and raised with foster/adopted parents?

It's a hum-dinger....

[Phil D. Rolls]

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Since I started teaching, I have found myself in the same quandry you find yourself in here, FH, on many occasion:

How do I reconcile my hatred for state interference in the family, with my almost concrete conviction that some people are not fit to be parents and should a) be prevented from having children and/or b) should have their kids taken away from them and raised with foster/adopted parents?

It's a hum-dinger....

That's the dilemma. As we know, that type of intervention wasn't particularly succesful in the past. All that happened was they went from a situation where there was no love and they were abused at home, to the same situation in an institution.

To me, the problem is that, although we have always had an underclass, since Thatcher it has grown bigger. Social mobility has gone two ways, those who could moved from the working class to the middle (employed) class, those who couldn't have drifted down the way.

In the past there was a community of decency around those kids who weren't being treated right. Their own family might have been clueless, but there were others that kept them in check.

Now the schemes are like the American inner cities after the white flight of the 60s and 70s. People have been left to their own devices and more and more kids are growing up without any moral code or sense of right and wrong.

How do you turn that round?

[Dashing Bob S]

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That's the dilemma. As we know, that type of intervention wasn't particularly succesful in the past. All that happened was they went from a situation where there was no love and they were abused at home, to the same situation in an institution.

To me, the problem is that, although we have always had an underclass, since Thatcher it has grown bigger. Social mobility has gone two ways, those who could moved from the working class to the middle (employed) class, those who couldn't have drifted down the way.

In the past there was a community of decency around those kids who weren't being treated right. Their own family might have been clueless, but there were others that kept them in check.

Now the schemes are like the American inner cities after the white flight of the 60s and 70s. People have been left to their own devices and more and more kids are growing up without any moral code or sense of right and wrong.

How do you turn that round?

I can't see how it can happen as we seem to have lost the idea of a full employment economy. I don't think people have got any worse, but they just have more time on their hands. If people worked 9-5 as in bygone days, they would have a bit of money in their pockets and less time to get up to mischief. Until we can get back to the concept of full-time, full employment, then other measures; education, environment, housing, health etc, while worthy, are only going to have a limited impact.

[Phil D. Rolls]

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I can't see how it can happen as we seem to have lost the idea of a full employment economy. I don't think people have got any worse, but they just have more time on their hands. If people worked 9-5 as in bygone days, they would have a bit of money in their pockets and less time to get up to mischief. Until we can get back to the concept of full-time, full employment, then other measures; education, environment, housing, health etc, while worthy, are only going to have a limited impact.

I've always felt that in the old days in an area like Granton for example, people all worked in the same place. That acted as a social control, in that if you misbehaved outside work, you had the humiliation of facing people you saw every day when you were at work.

The other thing is, council housing used to be allocated dependent on how good a citizen you were. You had to be "the right sort of person" to get one. This doesn't happen any more.

Now people have nothing to get up for, and nothing to live up to. Doors are closed and people lose themselves in wine, benzos and hash. It's a direct result of laissez faire Thatcherism - rather than waste time building and maintaining a society, it's a lot easier to herd people into ghettos and control them with drugs.

[IndieHibby]

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I've always felt that in the old days in an area like Granton for example, people all worked in the same place. That acted as a social control, in that if you misbehaved outside work, you had the humiliation of facing people you saw every day when you were at work.

The other thing is, council housing used to be allocated dependent on how good a citizen you were. You had to be "the right sort of person" to get one. This doesn't happen any more.

Now people have nothing to get up for, and nothing to live up to. Doors are closed and people lose themselves in wine, benzos and hash. It's a direct result of laissez faire Thatcherism - rather than waste time building and maintaining a society, it's a lot easier to herd people into ghettos and control them with drugs.

I find the constant reference to "Thatcherism" a little tiring. Wasn't the UK on the brink of economic meltdown in the 70's? Is it not the case that many of the changes she made were necessary evils designed to bring us back from the brink?

From what I can gather, most of the growth since the last recession (91-95, not 01-03) was largely made possible by the labour market reforms she made.

Of course, I could be wrong...

[Phil D. Rolls]

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I find the constant reference to "Thatcherism" a little tiring. Wasn't the UK on the brink of economic meltdown in the 70's? Is it not the case that many of the changes she made were necessary evils designed to bring us back from the brink?

From what I can gather, most of the growth since the last recession (91-95, not 01-03) was largely made possible by the labour market reforms she made.

Of course, I could be wrong...

I'm being non judgemental in my use of the term. Margaret Thatcher was very much an advocate of the free market, self help, and famously denied the existence of society.

I think that what we see in the schemes now is a direct consequence of her ethos. I said in the previous post that what we have seen is similair to the white flight in the states, those who can leave the schemes have, those that are too sick, too thick or too weak are left to fed for themselves.

Regardless of whether Thatcher was what Britain needed in the 70s, it is easy to trace the way society changed to the time of her descent to earth. Her politics were revolutionary and aimed at making changes to the way people live.

Britain was on is *rse in the 70s, people forget we were still paying for WW2, and had a creaking infrastructure. Who is to say how Labour would have got on with the oil revenue that Thatcher was able to bribe her supporters with?

They never got the chance. How could they, it is the strongest who take the wealth - and the rich made sure that money was going in their trouser pocket rather than rebuilding the country.

[IndieHibby]

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I'm being non judgemental in my use of the term. Margaret Thatcher was very much an advocate of the free market, self help, and famously denied the existence of society.

I think that what we see in the schemes now is a direct consequence of her ethos. I said in the previous post that what we have seen is similair to the white flight in the states, those who can leave the schemes have, those that are too sick, too thick or too weak are left to fed for themselves.

Regardless of whether Thatcher was what Britain needed in the 70s, it is easy to trace the way society changed to the time of her descent to earth. Her politics were revolutionary and aimed at making changes to the way people live.

Britain was on is *rse in the 70s, people forget we were still paying for WW2, and had a creaking infrastructure. Who is to say how Labour would have got on with the oil revenue that Thatcher was able to bribe her supporters with?

They never got the chance. How could they, it is the strongest who take the wealth - and the rich made sure that money was going in their trouser pocket rather than rebuilding the country.

What examples can you give of that (genuine question)?

[CropleyWasGod]

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What examples can you give of that (genuine question)?

Almost every time an election was coming up, the preceding Budget would be based on tax cuts for individuals and businesses. It was cynical, but it worked.

[Phil D. Rolls]

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What examples can you give of that (genuine question)?

Taxation and labour laws, selling off publicly owned industries for next to nothing.