Girl, 14 Stripped and Beaten at the Omni Centre

[khib70]

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You're a lunatic.

I've posted this before and it pertains to the James Bulger case in particular (hopefully this doesn't derail the thread) but I think it's a fantastic piece on how violent crime committed by children should/shouldn't be treated by society as a whole...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2003/feb/06/bulger.ukcrime

Still adopting shorthand for those who disagree with you? Classic Soviet Union stuff - dissidents are lunatics.

As for your Grauniad piece, it's a classic of the genre. Dysfunctional family, deprivation, sibling resentment In short, anything that removes any responsibility for their actions from the actual perpetrators.

I wouldn't personally advocate violent reprisals against the pondlife who perpetrated this latest attack. But people are angry, and rightly so, because these things happen and the perpetrators - who knew exactly what the potential consequences of their actions were - are protected by anonymity. They will then be further protected by social enquiry reports and the like, all of which will basically be built around Blake Morrison's and the Guardian's approach to crime. The perpetrators will end up being portrayed as victims, and the victims forgotten. They will reoffend sooner rather than later. And next time they may succeed in killing someone.

"Compassion" has been a hot topic recently. It's a good thing, but like respect, it has to be earned

[Green Mikey]

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I have posted in the heat of the moment. So I apologise for that & I certainly can't say i condone any sort of violence what so ever. But after reading the article I was & still am very angry. As the justice system as a whole in this country is wrong IMO & this girl has got to live with the horrors of this brutal assault for the rest of her life......this cannot be changed but some sort of justice has to be served. This is where my vigilante head comes in to play, it is not right nor is it big nor clever but its still there.

I hope her family & friends help her get through this & that correct justice is dished out. Nice comfy bed, PS2 & trips away are not the answer but this is what they will get.

But if this was a family member or close friend that had been put through this, then YES I beleive in an eye for an eye

What Punishment would suffice for you?

IMO we would all believe in 'an eye for an eye' if soimething like this happened to someone close to you. It is comletely understandable that there will a subjective response from any victim's family.

In this case I believe that there has to be considerable custodial sentence imposed and some attempt at rehabilitation due to the age of the people involved. I do agree with you on the point that there should be less home comforts for prisoners of all ages.

[Billie Jo]

Maybe I shouldny post what I think.

Sick little *******s.

I hope the young lassie recovers from this and I wish her well

[--------]

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Theres absolutely no need to have that level of detail reported in the newspapers. Theres no 'public interest'.

I agree. There's absolutely no 'public interest' served by publishing all that.

Sadly, though, there's a lot of 'interest' among the 'public' in knowing all the salacious details.

Gotta get right out there and sell those newspapers, bud.

[LiverpoolHibs]

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Still adopting shorthand for those who disagree with you? Classic Soviet Union stuff - dissidents are lunatics.

Amazing.

I stand by it. I think that a grown man wanting to batter three children to 'within an inch of their lives' by why of punishment for their behaviour is a lunatic; therefore I called him a lunatic.

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As for your Grauniad piece, it's a classic of the genre. Dysfunctional family, deprivation, sibling resentment In short, anything that removes any responsibility for their actions from the actual perpetrators.

It's not my Guardian piece, I just posted a link to an article that I think is very good.

And yeah, that's right - it's an attempt to clear them of any responsibility for their actions, deary me. It's an attempt to understand/explain why people act the way that they do; you clearly have no interest in that whatsoever. Your choice.

He's really taking the easy road, isn't he?

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I wouldn't personally advocate violent reprisals against the pondlife who perpetrated this latest attack. But people are angry, and rightly so, because these things happen and the perpetrators - who knew exactly what the potential consequences of their actions were - are protected by anonymity. They will then be further protected by social enquiry reports and the like, all of which will basically be built around Blake Morrison's and the Guardian's approach to crime. The perpetrators will end up being portrayed as victims, and the victims forgotten. They will reoffend sooner rather than later. And next time they may succeed in killing someone.

How do you know they 'knew exactly what the potential consequences of their action were' - what exactly are you basing that on? Presumably you've just read the article like everyone else.

You'd prefer them to be named? Why?

What, out of interest, do you think the fundamental basis for a justice system should be?

---------- Post added at 03:49 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:48 PM ----------

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Theres absolutely no need to have that level of detail reported in the newspapers. Theres no 'public interest'.

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I agree. There's absolutely no 'public interest' served by publishing all that.

Sadly, though, there's a lot of 'interest' among the 'public' in knowing all the salacious details.

Gotta get right out there and sell those newspapers, bud.

Yup, and yup again.

[Gus]

I stand by it. I think that a grown man wanting to batter three children to 'within an inch of their lives' by why of punishment for their behaviour is a lunatic; therefore I called him a lunatic.

I think three children battering, demoralising & to a degree sexually assaulting a 14 year old girl is the actions of lunatics.

I do agree that we need to establish why people commit such crimes, but in this case, bad upbringing etc... doesn't wash with me so I will stand by my views, like I said previously they are not correct but nor where the actions of those ****bags.

I am not a lunatic, just a guy who hopes that justic is served but knowing this country it wont be hence the frustrating comments.

[Dashing Bob S]

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I think it's important we know what people as young as that are capable of.

Terrible stuff. The neds really are getting beyond a joke in Scotland

And they used to be so nice as well.

[Dashing Bob S]

Sounds like a highly dysfunctional group of kids with a disturbed dynamic going on between them.

I'd suggest that a good few, if not all of those children were exhibiting problems for some time and that this bullying (thought not as extreme) was far from a one-off within that group. It was probably heading towards an incident like this for some time.

So for anyone to suggest that the parents have no culpability in this is beyond the pale. Yes, fourteen year olds are often very difficult to communicate with and keep tabs on, but a gang of them shouldn't be wandering the city centre drunk on cider at all hours.

[PiemanP]

That story is disgusting, but it doesnt surprise me.
I was that age not so long ago, and this stuff happens a lot.
Not normally is it taken to this level, but it still goes on.

To erradicate the problem of anti-social behaviour in Scotlands youth is pretty much impossible IMO, however a good start would be to give these neds some proper punishment. Being realistic, all these neds are going to get is a few years in a 'young offenders' where they will get to live out a cooshty life.

We should be locking them up in real prisions, treating them like the sh*t they are, and coming down harder on the parents. Maybe then Kids might think twice before commiting crimes of this nature!

[Phil D. Rolls]

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Theres absolutely no need to have that level of detail reported in the newspapers. Theres no 'public interest'.

[Betty Boop]

They apparently attacked two women, before the assault on the young girl.
http://edinburghnews.scotsman.com/to...ere.5608691.jp

[Dashing Bob S]

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They apparently attacked two women, before the assault on the young girl.
http://edinburghnews.scotsman.com/to...ere.5608691.jp

It seems that it was classic case of very two disturbed young girls getting together and acting out their angst. I feel for the young girl who was enticed out of the youth club but it seems poor judgment to allow herself to be befriended by such a disturbed duo. Where were her real friends?

[Judas Iscariot]

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That story is disgusting, but it doesnt surprise me.
I was that age not so long ago, and this stuff happens a lot.
Not normally is it taken to this level, but it still goes on.

To erradicate the problem of anti-social behaviour in Scotlands youth is pretty much impossible IMO, however a good start would be to give these neds some proper punishment. Being realistic, all these neds are going to get is a few years in a 'young offenders' where they will get to live out a cooshty life.

We should be locking them up in real prisions, treating them like the sh*t they are, and coming down harder on the parents. Maybe then Kids might think twice before commiting crimes of this nature!

And that would work why?

Of course, no adult that's ever done time has come out a worse person than before or went on to reoffend after release..

[Gus]

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And that would work why?

Of course, no adult that's ever done time has come out a worse person than before or went on to reoffend after release..

I agree, but sending them to a young offenders will not serve any good what so ever. Everyone has their own views what they consider to be justice or as someone pointed out my justice is the act of a lunatic, people will just have to agree to disagree.

[Hibrandenburg]

Unfortunately many parents of my generation have failed their kids. Choosing to indulge in their own selfish needs instead of those of the children.

It's no wonder that many kids nowadays have little or no respect for their elders, the law and society in general. What respect have they been shown, they must be constantly asking themselves "what do adults bring to the table?"

Shocking crime, but I fear there is worse to come.

[HIBERNIALEITH]

The poster who state that we do not need to know the details, in my opinion, are wrong. Possibly because I spent last year in Spain and when you watch the Spanish news there are no boundaries to what they show you. Soldiers in Afghanistan actually pictured in the streets killed, rather than show the aftermath of where they were killed! At first I was stunned but I actually began to understand that what they were showing was in fact what was REALLY happening! Here they tell you names of soldiers nothing to do with what they are really up against!

Yes I know that has nothing to do with this story but we have been "covered in cotton wool" with news here, now they are beginning to tell it like it really happened!

Personally, since the day my daughter was born in 2002 I vowed if anyone touched her in any way (obviously not in the "normal" playground fight) I would do time for it! I have never changed my mind on this moral I have. But everyone is entitled to their own opinions and there will always be disagreement!

[Antifa Hibs]

I wonder what the parents of these two twisted indivuduals are like? I could just be sterotyping but i'd hazard a guess that they will be junkie alcoholic types, I seem to see them more and more around these area's. No care in the world for their kids welfare, only interested in their next hit or were the next cheap bottle of cider is coming from, when you've got parents like that it's no wonder why alot of kids in the estates are so ****ed, although, make no mistake, i'm not making excuses in any way shape or form for what they done.

Anyway, heart goes out to the wee lassie, hopefully she pulls through it all.

[Woody1985]

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Unfortunately many parents of my generation have failed their kids. Choosing to indulge in their own selfish needs instead of those of the children.

It's no wonder that many kids nowadays have little or no respect for their elders, the law and society in general. What respect have they been shown, they must be constantly asking themselves "what do adults bring to the table?"

Shocking crime, but I fear there is worse to come.

Agree, when I was 17ish, 6 years ago or so there were fights between people all the time but that's what it was, a fight. 6 years on, you've got all these dafties that are not 17/18 running about wi knives trying to stab each other thinking they're hard as ****. Without a knife most of them are pussies who canny fight sleep.

My little cousin was stabbed at 16 a year or so ago. The blade hit his shoulder blade and stuck in it, half an inch lower and he'd be deid.

Wait til a generation or two after that. You think now is bad, just wait!

[Antifa Hibs]

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Agree, when I was 17ish, 6 years ago or so there were fights between people all the time but that's what it was, a fight. 6 years on, you've got all these dafties that are not 17/18 running about wi knives trying to stab each other thinking they're hard as ****. Without a knife most of them are pussies who canny fight sleep.

My little cousin was stabbed at 16 a year or so ago. The blade hit his shoulder blade and stuck in it, half an inch lower and he'd be deid.

Wait til a generation or two after that. You think now is bad, just wait!

Knife crime is getting worse, defo.

10 years ago if some wee pr1cks were giving it the big one I wouldn't think twice about confronting them and telling them to beat, these days though I do as alot of the wee f@nnies wouldn't think twice about sticking a blade in ye, espeically when they're fired up on the buckie and the white powder.

Carry a knife should get you national service.

[Woody1985]

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Knife crime is getting worse, defo.

10 years ago if some wee pr1cks were giving it the big one I wouldn't think twice about confronting them and telling them to beat, these days though I do as alot of the wee f@nnies wouldn't think twice about sticking a blade in ye, espeically when they're fired up on the buckie and the white powder.

Carry a knife should get you national service.

When I was younger we used to associate it with being a Glasgow thing. It's crept into Edinburgh and is one of many reasons I can't be arsed with this place anymore. If I had the financial means I'd be out of here tonight.

TBH I find that all the dafties around here are on Es, MDMA or vallies. The coke is usually too expensive for all the wee *****, unless they're selling it that is.

Coke is becoming a major problem in Edinburgh, certainly over the last 2 years the place has exploded with it. What I've noticed that is worrying is that people are starting to get licked and stabbed for £50/£100 debts.

[MrRobot]

If the attackers never got disturbed, they may very well have continued until they killed her. Jail them, regardless of age. Completely sickening.

Hope the girl recovers.

[libernian]

och people get in fights at that age (no excusing it but it does happen), its the naked bit that i think is so utterly unhuman, heartless and wrong. jail em n get them on the sex offenders list.

lifes a bit harsh as was suggested earlier.

[Steve-O]

Hard to provide any solutions really. In reality, wherever they go whether it be jail, or young offenders institutes, they are probably going to meet other radges, and remain radges themselves with no interest whatsoever in rehabilitation.

It's easy for sensible people like ourselves to say "send them to jail" and think that they'll suddenly have a good look at themselves and turn over a new leaf. The sad fact is that these bams do not seem to care about their futures, or much of anything other than "battering wide c**ts", getting pished / high, and being the "hardest" person in their peer group. That basically seems to be it for these characters in life and I honestly don't know how things can change?

Anyone?

[ArabHibee]

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och people get in fights at that age (no excusing it but it does happen), its the naked bit that i think is so utterly unhuman, heartless and wrong. jail em n get them on the sex offenders list.

lifes a bit harsh as was suggested earlier.

Could you go on the sex offenders list for something like this though?

[hibsbollah]

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Agree, when I was 17ish, 6 years ago or so there were fights between people all the time but that's what it was, a fight. 6 years on, you've got all these dafties that are not 17/18 running about wi knives trying to stab each other thinking they're hard as ****. Without a knife most of them are pussies who canny fight sleep.

My little cousin was stabbed at 16 a year or so ago. The blade hit his shoulder blade and stuck in it, half an inch lower and he'd be deid.

Wait til a generation or two after that. You think now is bad, just wait!

Adults always think the current generation of young people are the most degenerate. Its always been like that and always will be.

[Steve-O]

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Could you go on the sex offenders list for something like this though?

Too young in this case I would imagine.

Sounds like there was a sexual element to it, but the charge doesn't really have any sexual offence related to it so I doubt it here.

[New Corrie]

All the Do Gooder Lefties continually tell us that harsh punishment doesn't work, well, we will never know until we give it a try. One thing that is for sure is that the Left Wing approach to crime doesn't work. Social workers, human rights, civil liberties, legal aid, background reports, early release, open prisons etc etc....It doesn't work! The burgeoning Underclass and the crime that they bring will just get worse and worse until someone gets a hold of this! It's so typical of Britain that the victim always plays second fiddle to the perpetrator.

Execution, Boot Camps, National Service, Birching, stopping them breeding etc...I'd be right up for it all, but sadly we will never know if it works as we've signed up to all this European Communism that restricts us from punishing accordingly. The Scottish Parliament have a £60 million purse set aside to pay prisoners who had to slop out, and the current administration are hellbent on this early release programme which has been proven to put law abiding citizens at risk. No wonder they are pressing to get prisoners a vote. They are the criminal's friend!

[khib70]

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Amazing.

I stand by it. I think that a grown man wanting to batter three children to 'within an inch of their lives' by why of punishment for their behaviour is a lunatic; therefore I called him a lunatic.



It's not my Guardian piece, I just posted a link to an article that I think is very good.

And yeah, that's right - it's an attempt to clear them of any responsibility for their actions, deary me. It's an attempt to understand/explain why people act the way that they do; you clearly have no interest in that whatsoever. Your choice.

He's really taking the easy road, isn't he?



How do you know they 'knew exactly what the potential consequences of their action were' - what exactly are you basing that on? Presumably you've just read the article like everyone else.

You'd prefer them to be named? Why?

What, out of interest, do you think the fundamental basis for a justice system should be?

---------- Post added at 03:49 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:48 PM ----------





Yup, and yup again.

Lunatics act irrationally. However morally reprehensible it might be, there's nothing irrational about anyone wanting to beat seven shades out of such as the perpetrators of this crime.

And as for Blake Morrison ( who, you neglect to mention for the benefit of the rest of us, is a poet FFS, and no more qualified to comment than anyone else), I repeat, he is indulging in the classic liberal process of exoneration by understanding. Society is to blame. Capitalism, poverty, social exclusion This was a calculated act of malice, originated by the individuals concerned.

How do I know they were aware of the potential consequences of their actions? What a stupid question! They didn't know that repeatedly kicking someone in the head might kill them?? They didn't think that stripping, sexually degrading and seriously assaulting someone might traumatise them mentally? Every human action is the result of a choice, the consequences of which are the responsibility of the individual. At every stage in the squalid and inhuman treatment of this young girl, these people had the choice of not doing what they did.

Yes, they should be named, if convicted. It's not society's job to protect the guilty. And that leads on to what the basis of a system of justice should be. Protect the innocent, punish the guilty. Simples. Judge the actions regardless of motivation. Some actions are inexcusable, yet we have a whole industry spanning several professions whose purpose is to excuse the guilty.

[New Corrie]

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Lunatics act irrationally. However morally reprehensible it might be, there's nothing irrational about anyone wanting to beat seven shades out of such as the perpetrators of this crime.

And as for Blake Morrison ( who, you neglect to mention for the benefit of the rest of us, is a poet FFS, and no more qualified to comment than anyone else), I repeat, he is indulging in the classic liberal process of exoneration by understanding. Society is to blame. Capitalism, poverty, social exclusion This was a calculated act of malice, originated by the individuals concerned.

How do I know they were aware of the potential consequences of their actions? What a stupid question! They didn't know that repeatedly kicking someone in the head might kill them?? They didn't think that stripping, sexually degrading and seriously assaulting someone might traumatise them mentally? Every human action is the result of a choice, the consequences of which are the responsibility of the individual. At every stage in the squalid and inhuman treatment of this young girl, these people had the choice of not doing what they did.

Yes, they should be named, if convicted. It's not society's job to protect the guilty. And that leads on to what the basis of a system of justice should be. Protect the innocent, punish the guilty. Simples. Judge the actions regardless of motivation. Some actions are inexcusable, yet we have a whole industry spanning several professions whose purpose is to excuse the guilty.

Great post

[Dashing Bob S]

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Lunatics act irrationally. However morally reprehensible it might be, there's nothing irrational about anyone wanting to beat seven shades out of such as the perpetrators of this crime.

And as for Blake Morrison ( who, you neglect to mention for the benefit of the rest of us, is a poet FFS, and no more qualified to comment than anyone else), I repeat, he is indulging in the classic liberal process of exoneration by understanding. Society is to blame. Capitalism, poverty, social exclusion This was a calculated act of malice, originated by the individuals concerned.

How do I know they were aware of the potential consequences of their actions? What a stupid question! They didn't know that repeatedly kicking someone in the head might kill them?? They didn't think that stripping, sexually degrading and seriously assaulting someone might traumatise them mentally? Every human action is the result of a choice, the consequences of which are the responsibility of the individual. At every stage in the squalid and inhuman treatment of this young girl, these people had the choice of not doing what they did.

Yes, they should be named, if convicted. It's not society's job to protect the guilty. And that leads on to what the basis of a system of justice should be. Protect the innocent, punish the guilty. Simples. Judge the actions regardless of motivation. Some actions are inexcusable, yet we have a whole industry spanning several professions whose purpose is to excuse the guilty.

Agree with this up to a point, but it's ultimately a limited and thus facile analysis. We obviously have to do these things you suggest, but we also have to try and determine cause rather effect. If something is rotten at the heart of our society and is a root contributor to anti-social behaviour, we have to take steps to indentify and alter or eradicate that, otherwise we are just fighting fires and throwing more and more people in prison at the taxpayers expense.

In the 80's we restructured the economy, promoted the cult of individualism, created mass unemployment and low-status, part-time jobs. In doing so we also created a hopeless underclass who's only real chance of advancement was in the black economy, dealing drugs to their peers; people rendered miserable by no education, housing or employment opportunities. Now we are dealing with the children of this class of people. You can't rip the social fabric out of a nation and pretend that nothing has happened and that people are behaving badly or carrying knifes or getting wasted on drugs because there's something in the water.

As far I'm concerned, the youths who perpetrated this attack are probably way beyond redemption and rehabilitation. I don't care what punishment they recieve, I just don't want them walking the streets. What concerns me is that many parts of our city, many homes and many families have been written off by us a society, and the children they spawn are basically being bred for this behaviour. We've set up these anti-social behaviour factories, and we can devise all the grotesque punishments we like, it won't deter anyone who is so alienated and emotionally brutalised that they feel they have nothing to lose.