How come a club like Norwich...

[libernian]

also, theres a lot of folk living in edinburgh not from edinburgh - who's gonna move to burnley?

[heretoday]

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...which is based in a city considerably smaller than Edinburgh and is now being embarrassed in what is effectively England's Third Division can still attract 25K to home games when both Hibs and Hearts don't even have grounds big enough to hold 20K these days?

In the same league, Charlton pulled in 16.5K, while in the Championship Cardiff drew 22K, Leicester 26K and Derby a massive 33K. I know it was the opening day of the season but you'd hardly call any of these clubs major forces in football at present.

Oh, and one other thing. If we were to lose 7-1 at home to St Mirren on Saturday as Norwich did to the mighty Colchester, would you want to see Yogi sacked? Just interested, as I wonder how close Gunn must be to losing his job after just one game. Judging by the reaction of some of the more volatile fans they want him out.

do you know? I've often thought that myself!

[The_Todd]

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...which is based in a city considerably smaller than Edinburgh and is now being embarrassed in what is effectively England's Third Division can still attract 25K to home games when both Hibs and Hearts don't even have grounds big enough to hold 20K these days?

In the same league, Charlton pulled in 16.5K, while in the Championship Cardiff drew 22K, Leicester 26K and Derby a massive 33K. I know it was the opening day of the season but you'd hardly call any of these clubs major forces in football at present.

Oh, and one other thing. If we were to lose 7-1 at home to St Mirren on Saturday as Norwich did to the mighty Colchester, would you want to see Yogi sacked? Just interested, as I wonder how close Gunn must be to losing his job after just one game. Judging by the reaction of some of the more volatile fans they want him out.

Cardiff draw their support from the entire South East Wales region and the Valleys. Apart from Swansea, they're the only league team in Wales.

And it was also the opening of their new stadium.

We share a city with Hearts, have Celtic, Rangers, Falkirk, St Johnstone, Motherwell, Hamilton and St Mirren within an hours drive of us - all top flight teams.

Also, the Championship and League 1 have plenty money sloshing around. If Hibs, Hearts or Aberdeen were playing in the English Championship I reckon crowds could reach that.

It's apples and oranges.

[ancient hibee]

It's because Hibs and Hearts have underperformed for 40 years.Most teams down south have won nothing but the geographical spread makes it more difficult to go elsewhere.

[ballengeich]

England, for all its faults, doesn't have clubs baised on sectarian bigotry. As a consequence, people will identify with their town or region and support its club.

When you take out the OF contibution, Scottish football attendance figures are pathetically low.

[Cocaine&Caviar]

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I don't dispute rugby unions historically cancerous influence on Edinburgh but given no rugby union club in Edinburgh regularly attracts much in excess of 2,000 spectators and most struggle to get three figure crowds not sure how a big influence it now is on Edinburgh football crowds which now generally compare reasonably well with a lot of towns of similar size in England.

Educate me please...

[The_Todd]

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Educate me please...

Thinking the same...

[bobbyhibs1983]

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Well the aforementioned clubs are in towns/cities that have nothing else to do except go to the football.

This Saturday at 3pm, people can either attend the Hibs match or go to a selection of 1000's of shows in this year's Fringe for considerably cheaper, for example.

Edinburgh is an active city and sport, in general, often takes a back seat when people are deciding what to do with their weekends.

I tihnk you sorta touch on the problem and i ve not seen anyone else mention it, but does price make a big difference?
I mean ncfc are in the 2nd/3rd div so i would imagen there walk up/season ticket prices being resonable compares to us/heartz..

This season my bro/sis and I just cannot afford a s.t

Out of intrest what is a walk up/st price for them?

[erin go bragh]

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Norwich is a one team city/town though is it not.

Also, with all the extra money floating about the leagues down there, the standard of play is generally better than whats on show up here.

I would've launched my book at Gunn if I was that guy aswell!

they have a derby with ipswich

[The_Todd]

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they have a derby with ipswich

Yes, but they don't share a city. Or even a county - therefore their catchment area is larger.

[Sir David Gray]

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they have a derby with ipswich

It's not a derby in the true sense of the word, though.

They both come from the same region (East Anglia) but they are more than 40 miles apart.

It's a bit like calling a Hibs-Rangers match a derby.

[LancashireHibby]

It's only considered a derby because there's bugger all in between. Says a lot when East Anglia's third largest club is probably King's Lynn.

[hibs0666]

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Educate me please...

The Edinburgh middle class don't really like footie, and 25% of kids in Edinburgh go to private schools. That takes the footie catchment down from 460,000 to 350,000.

There is another 12% (I think) of the Edinburgh population that come from England, so lob off another 50,000 or so there.

So, we have a two-team city of around 300,000 potential footie supporters. In that context the fact that us and them can call on 90,000 cup final attendees ain't too shabby.

[RickyS]

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Apart from being a one team city, you'll find that they don't have as many glory hunters disappearing every week to see bigger teams like we do here in Edinburgh.

the glory hunters are obviously one of the reasons, but we are pee in into the wind with Hertz as our neighbours. I mean how can we compete with the 3rd biggest club in the universe, who have 400,000 fans and are due to win the champions league any day.......................

[LancashireHibby]

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the glory hunters are obviously one of the reasons, but we are pee in into the wind with Hertz as our neighbours. I mean how can we compete with the 3rd biggest club in the universe, who have 400,000 fans and are due to win the champions league any day.......................

Only third biggest?! Standards are slipping.

[jgl07]

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Its due to glory hunting old firm fans. Thousands of them in Edinburgh and surrounding areas with no real reason apart from the fact their dad and his dad supported them etc.

Its like a bad gene because they bring their kids up supporting a team that they will never actually show any real interest when doing bad, or actually go and watch live. This will go on for generations and is the whole single reason why scottish football is a complete mess. Not that I care much but its the same idea in Ireland where everyone supports man u, liverpool, celtic and rangers for no other reason than they win!!!

But that affects Norfolk as well. I bet that the place is stuffed with Man United and Chelsea supporters.

If you want 25,000 crowds the first step is to build a stadium big enough and then use marketing to fill it. That's what Fergus McCann did with Celtic. He knew little about football but he did know about martketing.

They were getting 20,000 (often below 10,000) when he took over. He proceded to build a 60,000 capacity stadium. As they stadium expansion went on progressively, the ground was close to full at each stage.

At Hibs the board are derided for trying to build a 20,000 capacity stadium. This is often from the luminaries who think that Hibs should be signing £500,000 players and paying the wages that go with it.

[monktonharp]

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Its due to glory hunting old firm fans. Thousands of them in Edinburgh and surrounding areas with no real reason apart from the fact their dad and his dad supported them etc.

Its like a bad gene because they bring their kids up supporting a team that they will never actually show any real interest when doing bad, or actually go and watch live. This will go on for generations and is the whole single reason why scottish football is a complete mess. Not that I care much but its the same idea in Ireland where everyone supports man u, liverpool, celtic and rangers for no other reason than they win!!!

that is the basic problem for Embra clubs,Pars,Falkirk 'Well etc. people attach them selfs to the OF,over Scotland, it makes them nice and safe and winning,never mind the fact that they dont/have not ever been to either of the Glasgow two.they can watch them on tv and tell everyone how great they are

[Joe Baker II]

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Educate me please...

I assume you are aware of the intangible but evident atmosphere of snobbery toward football created by the influence of rugby union in the city so will not expand here - though search some of my previous posts if you wish more information.

Some harder examples:

schools (both public and state) forcing children to play rugby union as the athletic arm of Anglicisation and showing no commitment to organising football teams,

banning playing of football even in playground, and beating of children for doing so,

punishment of children for attending football matches in the past are some examples.

These are less or not the case now but the ingrained mentality (resulting in the tangible lack of investment in football from Edinburgh businesses) that these have helped develop in Edinburgh will take longer to change.

[hibsbollah]

The fact that Norwich and all the other teams mentioned still attract big crowds is good news for football in general IMO. It means there is still life outside the overhyped Premiership and gives hope to all of us whose teams play in leagues without a massive TV deal. It also shows most fans will follow their team regardless of what league it plays in (Leeds, Notts Forest, Derby, both Sheffield clubs still get big crowds for big games). Down my way, most Geordies just havent a clue what kind of attendance there will be at SJP for their first home game in the Championship, and theres probably as much interest in that as there is in the match itself.

As far as Hibs is concerned, increasing our fan base doesnt interest me too much. If it happens, fine, but im not obsessed with becoming 'bigger'. Leave that to our neighbours...

[Joe Baker II]

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Apart from being a one team city, you'll find that they don't have as many glory hunters disappearing every week to see bigger teams like we do here in Edinburgh.

I uinderstand why it is tempting for Edinburgh football fans to blame other fans for the shortcomings of their own clubs, but this argument tends to fall down as it is never shown how many of these alleged glory hunters are from Edinburgh in the first place, as other posters have implied.

[J-C]

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I uinderstand why it is tempting for Edinburgh football fans to blame other fans for the shortcomings of their own clubs, but this argument tends to fall down as it is never shown how many of these alleged glory hunters are from Edinburgh in the first place, as other posters have implied.

Have you ever seen the dozens of buses leaving Haymarket etc every week either heading sor Darkheid or Greyskull. 30 buses with 40 in each bus, plus the hundreds going by train and cars, you're talking about 4-5,000 potential extra supporters Hibs or Hearts could have.

My next door neighbour is a Jambo and he wasn't happy when his laddie decided to support the Huns, another neighbour is a Celtic supporter purley because his family originally came from there and his dad was a Celtic man. Look around you and you'll see more and more kids wearing OF shirts, more than I ever remember seeing.

[Captain Trips]

My theory is that more than half the teams in the Championship, and in the Leagues below all start this season thinking they will finish top or thereabouts.

Take the Championship, Reading, West Brom, Ncastle, Palace, Cardiff, PNE, Mboro, Sheff Utd, thats 8 teams off top of head who could win it so there fans will be anticapating success. Im sure can do same for Norwich's leauge.

We have 10k STs based on we wont win the SPL maybe a cup but not SPL, is very good. all their fans are going thinking will win there respective League and have valid reason.

I guess same as why our crowds when in Div1 were good, anticipating success.

You tell these teams before season starts you will not finish in top 3 see how many they sell, we buy ours based on the high chance we wont finish higher than 3rd.

[dirtydirk]

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Have you ever seen the dozens of buses leaving Haymarket etc every week either heading sor Darkheid or Greyskull. 30 buses with 40 in each bus, plus the hundreds going by train and cars, you're talking about 4-5,000 potential extra supporters Hibs or Hearts could have.

My next door neighbour is a Jambo and he wasn't happy when his laddie decided to support the Huns, another neighbour is a Celtic supporter purley because his family originally came from there and his dad was a Celtic man. Look around you and you'll see more and more kids wearing OF shirts, more than I ever remember seeing.

Spot on. I think east of scotland old firm fans are very confused people. I have debates with my OF supporting mates and ask them the question about how they can gain satisfaction from there team who spend millions of pounds beating a team like falkirk who have spent 100k in 5 years. Its like getting a kick out of watching mike tyson beating up a 10 year old kid.
And on the other hand, they spit the dummy when the team gets beat and call for the manager to be sacked etc.

Also the fact is there is probably more hibs and hearts fans who have been to Ibrox and Parkhead more times in their life than most of the OF fans through this side of the country.

I seen Hibs draw 1-1 with Celtic only a few years back at Parkhead (lovell scored). Celtic had pretty much given the title away but technically could still win the league and the attendance was under 30,000. That may seem big but not when you have 60k season ticket holders. The OF are the worst fans in the world!!!!

[Brizo]

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I assume you are aware of the intangible but evident atmosphere of snobbery toward football created by the influence of rugby union in the city so will not expand here - though search some of my previous posts if you wish more information.

Some harder examples:

schools (both public and state) forcing children to play rugby union as the athletic arm of Anglicisation and showing no commitment to organising football teams,

banning playing of football even in playground, and beating of children for doing so,
punishment of children for attending football matches in the past are some examples.
These are less or not the case now but the ingrained mentality (resulting in the tangible lack of investment in football from Edinburgh businesses) that these have helped develop in Edinburgh will take longer to change.

Really ??? Im not trying to be smart but when exactly did these things happen. Tom Browns schooldays

[Posh Swanny]

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It's only considered a derby because there's bugger all in between. Says a lot when East Anglia's third largest club is probably King's Lynn.

Ahem...

[Joe Baker II]

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Really ??? Im not trying to be smart but when exactly did these things happen. Tom Browns schooldays

certainly from 1950s onwards there were plenty of such stories about beatings/punishment and still recall football playing being actively discouraged at state schools in 1980s.

[Joe Baker II]

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Have you ever seen the dozens of buses leaving Haymarket etc every week either heading sor Darkheid or Greyskull. 30 buses with 40 in each bus, plus the hundreds going by train and cars, you're talking about 4-5,000 potential extra supporters Hibs or Hearts could have.
.

Yes but point was that the proportion of these people who are actually not from Edinburgh originally has never been established. And then you have to take off number of Hibs fans not from Edinburgh to make any figure realistic - we have quite a few located/from areas where there are more local teams.

Dozens of buses leaving each week - are you sure. And while I am not saying an extra 2-2,500 fans would not be welcome to Hibs/Hearts it is not really critical reason why Edinburgh crowds (which actually in recently years are not too bad) lie behind those in some cities.

[AndyM_1875]

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I assume you are aware of the intangible but evident atmosphere of snobbery toward football created by the influence of rugby union in the city so will not expand here - though search some of my previous posts if you wish more information.

Some harder examples:

schools (both public and state) forcing children to play rugby union as the athletic arm of Anglicisation and showing no commitment to organising football teams,

banning playing of football even in playground, and beating of children for doing so,

punishment of children for attending football matches in the past are some examples.

These are less or not the case now but the ingrained mentality (resulting in the tangible lack of investment in football from Edinburgh businesses) that these have helped develop in Edinburgh will take longer to change.

Joe, I was educated at a private school in Edinburgh. I can assure you I was never beaten or punished for either playing football nor for going to Easter Road. Back in the 80s my punishment was watching the games at ER.

At my school football and rugby were both alive and well and co-existed quite happily alongside each other and more boys played football to be honest. Some played both.

Blaming rugby for Hibs & Hearts crowds being poor is missing the picture IMHO. Scotland play at Murrayfield about 6 times a year and you are lucky is half of those games clash with a Hibs home fixture.

Your real problem is Old Firm gloryhunters. Celtic and Rangers each have about 9,000 ST Holders with EH Postcodes. That's your problem, not Rugby.

[Keith_M]

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Yes but point was that the proportion of these people who are actually not from Edinburgh originally has never been established. And then you have to take off number of Hibs fans not from Edinburgh to make any figure realistic - we have quite a few located/from areas where there are more local teams.

Dozens of buses leaving each week - are you sure. And while I am not saying an extra 2-2,500 fans would not be welcome to Hibs/Hearts it is not really critical reason why Edinburgh crowds (which actually in recently years are not too bad) lie behind those in some cities.

Well I'm originally from a village just outside Edinburgh and it. along with all the other villages and towns round about, had far more people who declared themselves to be OF fans than Hibs/Hearts fans. Whether they went to games or not is irrelevant, it means they do not go to Hibs or Hearts games.

Also, the number of people who support Hibs and Hearts from outside the lothians is miniscule compared to the number of OF 'fans' inside the lothians, so the former certainly doesn't cancel out the latter.

[J-C]

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Yes but point was that the proportion of these people who are actually not from Edinburgh originally has never been established. And then you have to take off number of Hibs fans not from Edinburgh to make any figure realistic - we have quite a few located/from areas where there are more local teams.

Dozens of buses leaving each week - are you sure. And while I am not saying an extra 2-2,500 fans would not be welcome to Hibs/Hearts it is not really critical reason why Edinburgh crowds (which actually in recently years are not too bad) lie behind those in some cities.

I take it you've never been to Haymarket on a saturday where there's always a police presence due to the Celtic/Huns fans either getting coaches or trains out west.Surely areas from the lothians like Dalkieth, Musselburgh etc would have a majority of Hibs/Hearts supporters as they are closer to Edinburgh than Glasgow but you'd be surprised at the number of OF fans in these areas.