The Trans Rights Debate

[He's here!]

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Surprised they forced the whip on this

SNP suffers biggest ever backbench revolt over transgender bill | Transgender | The Guardian

[marinello59]

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Surprised they forced the whip on this

Really?

[CropleyWasGod]

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What did she say about sex worker rights?

She is trying to introduce the Nordic Model, which has been rejected 5 (perhaps more) times in Scotland, and which sex workers throughout the world are against.

[ronaldo7]

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This is such a niche issue I doubt it moves more than a handful of votes either way in any election.
And like any issue in Scotland, the only reason it’s getting amplified is because the two Indy parties are promoting it so the unionists have decided to oppose it. And you can see that even on this thread. It’s quite sad really as it is a complex issue for a tiny amount of people and they don’t really need it being weaponised in the Indy debate.
It’s like Celtic and Sevco fans waiting to see which side of any conflict the other set of fans are about to take so that they can oppose them.


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I decided to go to the start of this thread to read up on the subject close to the hearts of, well, not many folk.

Turns out the opposition parties have come onboard, and even the Tories are not opposing it anymore.

[He's here!]

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Surprised they forced the whip on this

That surprised me too. This issue goes beyond party politics and a free vote would have seemed the more sensible route.

[archie]

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I decided to go to the start of this thread to read up on the subject close to the hearts of, well, not many folk.

Turns out the opposition parties have come onboard, and even the Tories are not opposing it anymore.

It was only stage one where the only option is to support the bill or vote it down. The battleground will be stages two and three where the Bill can be amended.

[heretoday]

Good to know Scottish government minister has a conscience.

[ronaldo7]

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It was only stage one where the only option is to support the bill or vote it down. The battleground will be stages two and three where the Bill can be amended.

I expect amendments from Labour, Lib dems, and the Tories, with the latter finally voting against.

[ronaldo7]

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That surprised me too. This issue goes beyond party politics and a free vote would have seemed the more sensible route.

It was part of the manifesto. It shouldn't be a surprise to anyone.

[Stairway 2 7]

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It was part of the manifesto. It shouldn't be a surprise to anyone.

They committed to deliberated process and discussion with all groups including feminists, they say this hasn't happened

https://murrayblackburnmackenzie.org/2022/01/14/gender-recognition-reform-what-happened-to-the-manifesto/

[ronaldo7]

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They committed to deliberated process and discussion with all groups including feminists, they say this hasn't happened

https://murrayblackburnmackenzie.org...the-manifesto/

I'm sure they had the opportunity to have their say during the long process that's unfolded. 32,000 responses in two consultations. I'm sure all the folk that wanted 121s with Government minsters wouldn't get a seat at the table, but a representative of the group would/should have.

[He's here!]

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It was only stage one where the only option is to support the bill or vote it down. The battleground will be stages two and three where the Bill can be amended.

Things will almost certainly get more heated, but despite last night's unprecedented backbench SNP rebellion, the bill will, sadly, still pass.

The hope, however, must be that the higher profile given to an issue that a majority remain unclear about will awaken more folk to just how polarising it is and how 'real feminist' Sturgeon is riding roughshod over women's rights for the sake (as this article argues) of being seen as progressive:

Editor's Column: The Right to Be (holyrood.com)

[Ozyhibby]

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Things will almost certainly get more heated, but despite last night's unprecedented backbench SNP rebellion, the bill will, sadly, still pass.

The hope, however, must be that the higher profile given to an issue that a majority remain unclear about will awaken more folk to just how polarising it is and how 'real feminist' Sturgeon is riding roughshod over women's rights for the sake (as this article argues) of being seen as progressive:

Editor's Column: The Right to Be (holyrood.com)

It will pass because people voted for it. That’s democracy.


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[He's here!]

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It will pass because people voted for it. That’s democracy.


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A cowardly vote IMHO, brought about by some hardline lobbyists with a lop-sided amount of influence. Mandy Rhodes (in another excellent article, linked below) puts it better than me:

"One day we may reflect on the wilful stance of politicians and policymakers to engage in any form of reasonable debate for fear of their partiality and ignorance being exposed, and their superficial understanding of the law and science revealed. We may reasonably ask why MPs and MSPs with a mandate to serve all, were persuaded by powerful lobbyists to eschew their responsibility for the many and only speak to and for the few."

It's time we stopped allowing lobby groups to drive the debate on gender (holyrood.com)

[CropleyWasGod]

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A cowardly vote IMHO, brought about by some hardline lobbyists with a lop-sided amount of influence. Mandy Rhodes (in another excellent article, linked below) puts it better than me:

"One day we may reflect on the wilful stance of politicians and policymakers to engage in any form of reasonable debate for fear of their partiality and ignorance being exposed, and their superficial understanding of the law and science revealed. We may reasonably ask why MPs and MSPs with a mandate to serve all, were persuaded by powerful lobbyists to eschew their responsibility for the many and only speak to and for the few."

It's time we stopped allowing lobby groups to drive the debate on gender (holyrood.com)

Mandy Rhodes has previous for putting the boot in to things she doesn't agree with.

One.of the things I really like about the Scottish Parliament is the fact that it gives access to the legislative process to individuals and marginalised groups in a way that we didn't have previously. I have colleagues I'm England who are jealous of the relative ease with which we can do that. I hope that part of our system never changes.

[archie]

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Mandy Rhodes has previous for putting the boot in to things she doesn't agree with.

One.of the things I really like about the Scottish Parliament is the fact that it gives access to the legislative process to individuals and marginalised groups in a way that we didn't have previously. I have colleagues I'm England who are jealous of the relative ease with which we can do that. I hope that part of our system never changes.

I think that's right to a point. But the argument being made by some groups is that access is constrained by whether you are in or out. One of the complaints about the Third Sector in Scotland is co-option by access and funding. But if you are out you are out.

[He's here!]

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Mandy Rhodes has previous for putting the boot in to things she doesn't agree with.

One.of the things I really like about the Scottish Parliament is the fact that it gives access to the legislative process to individuals and marginalised groups in a way that we didn't have previously. I have colleagues I'm England who are jealous of the relative ease with which we can do that. I hope that part of our system never changes.

What journalist doesn't?

There's a tendency on here among SNP devotees, to adopt a 'non story, nothing to see here approach' to anything critical of Sturgeon/the Scottish government. Rhodes' piece isn't a throwaway rant for the sake of being contrary, it's a well-written, considered piece which gets to the heart of why this bill (which clearly transcends party politics even for previously well-drilled SNP MSPs) is quite simply bad law and deserves to be called out as such.

[CropleyWasGod]

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What journalist doesn't?

There's a tendency on here among SNP devotees, to adopt a 'non story, nothing to see here approach' to anything critical of the Scottish government. Rhodes' piece isn't a throwaway rant for the sake of being contrary, it's a well-written, considered piece which gets to the heart of why this bill (which clearly transcends party politics even for previously well-drilled SNP MSPs) is quite simply bad law and deserves to be called out as such.

I'm not an SNP devotee, nor a voter.

My issue is with the fact that she decries the lobbying (I prefer the term "advocacy") process that she herself has been part of in the past. Presumably, she is in favour of the opponents the bill doing their own lobbying.

[He's here!]

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I'm not an SNP devotee, nor a voter.

My issue is with the fact that she decries the lobbying (I prefer the term "advocacy") process that she herself has been part of in the past. Presumably, she is in favour of the opponents the bill doing their own lobbying.

Yes, sorry, that was more of a general observation of a tend to play the man not the ball when it comes to criticism of Sturgeon. There's often little heed paid to what the critic is saying and their views are simply written off.

Here's another spot-on piece which addresses the concerns of many. I know she's Labour to the core, but I worked with her a good many years ago and know something of her background. If anyone is well placed to comment on women's rights it's Susan. The lived experience of so many women is what gives them the right to fear this legislation and I get the sense it's easier for men to brush off such concerns because they're simply unaware of what's at stake. Those with daughters may feel otherwise:

Transgender debate in Scotland: Nicola Sturgeon can't ignore voices of young women deeply concerned by self-ID plans – Susan Dalgety | The Scotsman

[He's here!]

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/202...cola-sturgeon/

[He's here!]

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I'm not surprised at Ash Denham's stance. Her record on other feminist-related issues, such as sex worker rights, is very poor IMO. That said, to leave it this late is pretty appalling.

Nicola Sturgeon knew of gender bill concerns, ex-minister says - BBC News

[147lothian]

[Hibs4185]

My wife is a former teacher and she was at a get together with all her uni pals. 4 or 5 of them had been at a CPD course on equality and one of the things they all picked up on was that they should no longer use the term ‘boys or girls’ when addressing the class.

This is primary school teachers btw.

Ridiculous

[Moulin Yarns]

https://news.stv.tv/entertainment/da...ally-important

Daniel Radcliffe has his say.

[Stairway 2 7]

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https://news.stv.tv/entertainment/da...ally-important

Daniel Radcliffe has his say.

No sure why anyone would care what the opinion of his or jk's was to be honest.

[He's here!]

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Powerful stuff. She speaks well.

[superfurryhibby]

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https://news.stv.tv/entertainment/da...ally-important

Daniel Radcliffe has his say.

In the 2020 essay he wrote: “Transgender women are women. Any statement to the contrary erases the identity and dignity of transgender people and goes against all advice given by professional health care associations who have far more expertise on this subject matter than either Jo or I.

“According to The Trevor Project, 78% of transgender and nonbinary youth reported being the subject of discrimination due to their gender identity. It’s clear that we need to do more to support transgender and nonbinary people, not invalidate their identities, and not cause further harm.”

In a recent interview with IndieWire, Radcliffe, 33, explained why he felt compelled to speak up.

He said: “The reason I was felt very, very much as though I needed to say something when I did was because, particularly since finishing ‘Potter,’ I’ve met so many queer and trans kids and young people who had a huge amount of identification with Potter on that. And so seeing them hurt on that day I was like, I wanted them to know that not everybody in the franchise felt that way. And that was really important.”

Radcliffe fails to grasp the conflict inherent what he says. Rowling is speaking as a women, someone with "lived experience". He is not and never can do so. WE all know there is discrimination and stigma associated with trans and non binary and no right thinking person would condone that? However, he doesn't even bother pretending to directly address what Rowling and many others are saying when they condemn blanket approaches to self identification, as proposed under GRA.

Why is he speaking on behalf of "the franchise", surely not to protect the corporate Potter cash cow that made him a star and no doubt very rich?

Radcliffe's utterances smack of cynicism and tokenism.

[He's here!]

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https://news.stv.tv/entertainment/da...ally-important

Daniel Radcliffe has his say.

He's already had plenty to say on this and all of it completely off the mark when it comes to Rowling being anti-trans.

The kids in the Potter films owe Rowling their acting careers and were likely set up for life by the films. I don't have an issue with their wealth because the movies are excellent and they more than earned that money, but when it comes to Rowling they could at least show her some respect by getting their facts right before putting the boot in.

[He's here!]

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In the 2020 essay he wrote: “Transgender women are women. Any statement to the contrary erases the identity and dignity of transgender people and goes against all advice given by professional health care associations who have far more expertise on this subject matter than either Jo or I.

“According to The Trevor Project, 78% of transgender and nonbinary youth reported being the subject of discrimination due to their gender identity. It’s clear that we need to do more to support transgender and nonbinary people, not invalidate their identities, and not cause further harm.”

In a recent interview with IndieWire, Radcliffe, 33, explained why he felt compelled to speak up.

He said: “The reason I was felt very, very much as though I needed to say something when I did was because, particularly since finishing ‘Potter,’ I’ve met so many queer and trans kids and young people who had a huge amount of identification with Potter on that. And so seeing them hurt on that day I was like, I wanted them to know that not everybody in the franchise felt that way. And that was really important.”

Radcliffe fails to grasp the conflict inherent what he says. Rowling is speaking as a women, someone with "lived experience". He is not and never can do so. WE all know there is discrimination and stigma associated with trans and non binary and no right thinking person would condone that? However, he doesn't even bother pretending to directly address what Rowling and many others are saying when they condemn blanket approaches to self identification, as proposed under GRA.

Why is he speaking on behalf of "the franchise", surely not to protect the corporate Potter cash cow that made him a star and no doubt very rich?

Radcliffe's utterances smack of cynicism and tokenism.

Good post. Reminds me of the misguided guff Tom Daley came out with about this issue a few months back.

[Stairway 2 7]

Maybe I'm off but I'm surprised it's as low as 78% of trans youth have experienced discrimination. I thought it'd be higher, hopefully things are changing.

I'd bet its in the 90s % of say gingers that have experienced discrimination, definitely most people of colour