Hibs and the Irish question

Not looking to start a row with this. Not one of us here want Hibs to be like some mini Celtic, some sort of east of Scotland Celtic, or any sort of try-hard wanna-be Irish organisation. We’re practically all comfortable with Hibs being an modern inclusive club open to all.

but I do find it very interesting, that on a day when clubs up and down Britain with little if any Irish connections apart from maybe the odd player are wishing their supporters a Happy St Patrick’s Day through their social media channels, our club, the one built by Edinburgh’s early Irish community, named after Ireland, that still plays in green in homage to those roots, that carries that heritage in its club badge… can’t even bring themselves to acknowledge the date. Did they forget? Or is it some sort of shame or fear that they might be labelled sectarian or offend somebody.

as you can tell from my username I’m no Christian, so the religious elements of St Patrick’s Day mean nothing to me, nor am I some flag waving zealot for Irish nationalism. I’m not even really a twitter user much so it doesn’t really bother me - I just find Hibs identity endlessly fascinating.

I cant ever remember the club putting happy St Andrew's day on its official page or tweeting it either.

If folk wan't St Patrick's day content just turn on the telly, you can't miss it .... Guinness have a lot to answer for :greengrin

I think our big problem is that we try so hard to not be like celtc, anything they do we don't. For me that is a failing.

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Originally Posted by NAE NOOKIE

I cant ever remember the club putting happy St Andrew's day on its official page or tweeting it either.

If folk wan't St Patrick's day content just turn on the telly, you can't miss it .... Guinness have a lot to answer for :greengrin

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absolutely, and I’m not advocating it, I’m perfectly comfortable with Hibs doing what they do. I just wondered if the club see it as some sort of taboo subject.

Honestly, **** Celtic and **** anyone who compares us to them. I couldn’t give the shiniest ***** what anyone thinks about us, there’ll be folk among the hibs support who don’t like it but why don’t we start to celebrate our Irish heritage more? I’m not talking to full blown yankee style plastic paddy and all start taking ****ing DNA tests and claiming abandoned castles, but a bit of acknowledgment of what the Irish population of Edinburgh created would be fabulous. Plus, tap into the Yankee style plastic paddy market that I just slagged off and make an extra few quid, it’s a win win other than getting a (somehow) harder time off the papers and SFA.


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Originally Posted by NAE NOOKIE

I cant ever remember the club putting happy St Andrew's day on its official page or tweeting it either.

If folk wan't St Patrick's day content just turn on the telly, you can't miss it .... Guinness have a lot to answer for :greengrin

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Thats where I am. St Patrick day is a commercial festival. A great excuse to drink Guiness though. :greengrin

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Originally Posted by ErinGoBraghHFC

Honestly, **** Celtic and **** anyone who compares us to them. I couldn’t give the shiniest ***** what anyone thinks about us, there’ll be folk among the hibs support who don’t like it but why don’t we start to celebrate our Irish heritage more? I’m not talking to full blown yankee style plastic paddy and all start taking ****ing DNA tests and claiming abandoned castles, but a bit of acknowledgment of what the Irish population of Edinburgh created would be fabulous. Plus, tap into the Yankee style plastic paddy market that I just slagged off and make an extra few quid, it’s a win win other than getting a (somehow) harder time off the papers and SFA.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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The club is called Hibernian, it plays in green and white and it has an Irish harp in it's badge .... I think we acknowledge our Irish roots just fine and anybody who takes the Easter Road tour is left in no doubt who the club's original founders were and where they came from. It's the same for anybody who looks at our Wikipedia page where the club's early history is well documented.

IMO the balance we have is just fine. Hibs were indeed formed by Irishmen, which everybody who supports the club is more than happy to acknowledge, but mate, 95% of it's modern day support is Scottish and I'm willing to bet more than half of the remaining 5% is English ..... If as we all claim the club is the fans it's a hell of a long time since this was an Irish club.

The OP was on about St Patrick's day .... I love this club, but that means absolutely nothing to me. If Hibs choose to get closer to the club's Irish roots then get bloody Guinness to sponsor us and chuck a few million at the club.

I think we shoud rename the ground "Easter Uprising 1916 Road Stadium" :duck:

As has been said, St Patrick’s day is now a commercial event, where Guinness and the licensed trade in metropolitan areas with large student populations make a few bob. It’s that lepracaun-ey, dye the river green Oirishness that owes more to the Irish diaspora in the US than to any authentic sense of Irish in Scotland.

I’m quite happy for Hibs to ignore the date.

The Celtic love in with St Patrick's Day sums both up.

Both derived from something genuine but both more than a bit plastic.

Hibs are 100% no mini Celtic. The opposite is true. They only exist because of us.

James Stephen’s book about the 2016 Scottish Cup win includes a section about our previous Scottish Cup wins. Turns out that, after a team of Irish Immigrants from Edinburgh won the tournament in 1887, their counterparts in Glasgow invited them through for a party to celebrate their success.

Apparently a conversation ensued about setting up a football team and Hibs recommended they give it a go. The weegies then formed a team in 1888 called Glasgow Celtic.

I’m all for nights out an all, but by god, I really wish our players had stayed home that night !!!

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Originally Posted by hibbydog

Hibs are 100% no mini Celtic. The opposite is true. They only exist because of us.

James Stephen’s book about the 2016 Scottish Cup win includes a section about our previous Scottish Cup wins. Turns out that, after a team of Irish Immigrants from Edinburgh won the tournament in 1887, their counterparts in Glasgow invited them through for a party to celebrate their success.

Apparently a conversation ensued about setting up a football team and Hibs recommended they give it a go. The weegies then formed a team in 1888 called Glasgow Celtic.

I’m all for nights out an all, but by god, I really wish our players had stayed home that night !!!

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You could take an entirely different view and be grateful that their doing so saved us from becoming embroiled in the sectarian nonsense that so besmirches Scotland in the 2020's by becoming the talisman for that side of the divide.

I would like to think that our history has informed us to being the type of club we are today, but as someone with no links to Ireland and absolutely zero interest in religion of any sort, it would be a very dark day indeed for me if we were to walk even one step down the path towards what Celtic are for a few sheckles.

Cannot remember Hibernian Football Club wishing everyone a Happy St Patrick’s Day ever …

Proud of our club and feel we handle our Irish roots just fine

I am of Irish Catholic descent and I do not like what I see and hear when Celtic come a calling

Embarrassing

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Originally Posted by hibbydog

Hibs are 100% no mini Celtic. The opposite is true. They only exist because of us.

James Stephen’s book about the 2016 Scottish Cup win includes a section about our previous Scottish Cup wins. Turns out that, after a team of Irish Immigrants from Edinburgh won the tournament in 1887, their counterparts in Glasgow invited them through for a party to celebrate their success.

Apparently a conversation ensued about setting up a football team and Hibs recommended they give it a go. The weegies then formed a team in 1888 called Glasgow Celtic.

I’m all for nights out an all, but by god, I really wish our players had stayed home that night !!!

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Looking even deeper into that story is fascinating, as for various reasons, the nascent Celtic board split, with one wing wanting to emulate Hibs charitable approach, the othrt being far more ruthless and commercially focused.

The charitable wing left and formed Glasgow Hibernian instead, but it was doomed to failure and Celtic became the ruthless winning machine they still are, almost from the outset.

Its a fascinating subject. Hibs unease with their identity has, in my view caused enormous difficulty for the club down the years, and was seen by some - possibly even Harry Swan - as a millstone to be cut away. To others it was the ethos and the clubs reason for being.

In its own way, its similar to the debate about moving the derby ko. Where does a club choose to draw the line between ethos, and intangible things like identity, and commercialism, on-pitch success etc.

I think Hibs have wrestled with that for a long period of their middle history. Its for each person to decide if they got it right or wrong.

As Lugton points out, Hibs did used to celebrate St Pats day, Hibs home is of course St Pats church. Equally, Hibs were - deliberately - founded on the birthday of Daniel O'Connell the great Irish nationalist, so symbolism did matter to the club for the first 3rd or so of its existence.

Also, and ive read people on here talking about it mick orourke maybe?) There was a tradition among the cowgate community well into the 20th century to have Scots / Irish day where the kids, on st pats day, would ask people on the street 'scots or irish' and if they answered scots, the kids would hit them on the head with wee toy koshs they had made.

Knowing how hard it can be to come up with social media material, I do think it’s a bit odd that Hibs wouldn’t punt out a post, possibly with pictures of a few of our Irish players over the years in their finest moments alongside a brief mention of what happened in 1875, to “remain engaged” with the fan base. A collage of Horgan scoring against Hearts, Logan performing Hampden heroics and Clancy enjoying some time on the treatment table should do the job.

If nothing else it’s a way to tick a box, to fill some space.

Not sure I’d go reading all that much into it, although it will be interesting to see if we acknowledge metal hat day in May.

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Originally Posted by James Stephen

Looking even deeper into that stort is fascinating, as for various reasons, the nascent Celtic board split, with one wing wanting to emulate Hibs charitable approach, the othrt being far more ruthless and commercially focused.

The charitable wing left and formed Glasgow Hibernian instead, but it was doomed to failure and Celtic became the ruthless winning machine they still are, almost ffom3the outset.

Its a fascinating subject. Hibs unease with their identity has, in my view caused enormous difficulty for the club down the years, and was seen by some - possibly even Harry Swan - as a millstone to be cut away. To others it was the ethos and the clubs reason for being.

In its own way, its similar to the debate about moving the derby ko. Where does a club choose to draw the line between ethos, and intangible things like identity, and commercialism, on-pitch success etc.

I think Hibs have wrestled with that for a long period of their middle history. Its for each person to decide if they got it right or wrong.

As Lugton points out, Hibs did used to celebrate St Pats day, Hibs home is of course St Pats church. Equally, Hibs weee - deliberately - founded on the birthday of Daniel O'Connell the great Irish nationalist, so symbolism did matter to the club for the first 3rd or so of its existence.

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Brilliant fascinating and excellent book James very well done

A few run ins with Celtic in Scottish Cup Finals over the years with interesting facts and details

No love lost

Highly recommended

Also, noted that Hanlon Stevenson Foundation created St Pats day scarves with the original Hibs badge on it, so they obviously think there is a market for it.

It’s quite a big thing in Ireland mind you. National holiday, and my Irish in laws were all out yesterday enjoying parades that is an annual event in Galway and surrounding towns.

Non Irish people over here dressing up in inflammable oversized leprechaun hats down the pub is a a very odd way to behave though. As is the turning Celtic Park into an enclave of Ireland by a largely Scottish population with no connection to Ireland whatsoever other than the team they choose to support.

Hibs are quite right to steer clear.

My take is that football, globally, is in the entertainment business and so will use any avenue to promote its wears. Unfortunately, the history of the uk is such that any form of perceived nationalistic celebration has, historically, been viewed with suspicion along political and, even more sadly, sectarian lines.

This found itself reflected in employment and industry. Specifically because of the deep rooted prejudice that manifested itself in the shipyards of Belfast and Glasgow, spread to that other area where society gathered in numbers and in a rather tribal way, football.

I would love to see all clubs able to exploit every avenue to increase revenue, without being seen as anything other than an excuse to party. Sadly, we live in a country with a history of suspicion and historic oppression and some areas are best avoided.

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Originally Posted by Smartie

Knowing how hard it can be to come up with social media material, I do think it’s a bit odd that Hibs wouldn’t punt out a post, possibly with pictures of a few of our Irish players over the years in their finest moments alongside a brief mention of what happened in 1875, to “remain engaged” with the fan base. A collage of Horgan scoring against Hearts, Logan performing Hampden heroics and Clancy enjoying some time on the treatment table should do the job.

If nothing else it’s a way to tick a box, to fill some space.

Not sure I’d go reading all that much into it, although it will be interesting to see if we acknowledge metal hat day in May.

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I think we all know the inevitable consequences of doing that, and not just on social media. Which goes to show the weird freakish world of anti Irish bigotry that exists in Scotland, and is widely tolerated and in many quarters encouraged.

My wife is Irish and as such the kids are half Irish. She sent them to school dressed in green like they do back home in Ireland on Paddy’s day. Because the kids go to a Roman Catholic school all the kids with Irish families are whipped away by the Head Teacher for a paddy’s day party at lunch time with green cup cakes etc.

The Head does this for other saints days, religious festivals, other ethnicities etc etc.

I find the whole business of St Patrick's day an excellent promotion for Ireland, therefore
I ignore it. St Swithin's day however.....

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Originally Posted by stuart-farquhar

I find the whole business of St Patrick's day an excellent promotion for Ireland, therefore
I ignore it. St Swithin's day however.....

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Is that you Pancake? 🤣

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Originally Posted by hibbydog

Hibs are 100% no mini Celtic. The opposite is true. They only exist because of us.

James Stephen’s book about the 2016 Scottish Cup win includes a section about our previous Scottish Cup wins. Turns out that, after a team of Irish Immigrants from Edinburgh won the tournament in 1887, their counterparts in Glasgow invited them through for a party to celebrate their success.

Apparently a conversation ensued about setting up a football team and Hibs recommended they give it a go. The weegies then formed a team in 1888 called Glasgow Celtic.

I’m all for nights out an all, but by god, I really wish our players had stayed home that night !!!

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Hadn't heard of this book, have now just bought it of Amazon, for the Kindle, only £4.99, thanks for that.

I think most hibs fans accept/embrace our heritage and as others have said we are called Hibernian, wear green, harp on the badge so the club recognise this. However i also think most hibs fans see the whole plastic paddy stuff and darker stuff from Celtic and want nothing to do with that so push back against it. Nowadays i reckon most hibbies have very little connection to Ireland other than hibs so have no more interest in St Pats day than any other football fan. Without opening another debate/arguement i would say the majority of hibs fans see their allegiance to scotland rather than Ireland.

I've got an Irish surname, my great grandfather was the one that came here and he's the reason our family are a Hibs one. So in a way I'm as Irish as Hibs are these days because our roots go back the about the same length of time and I couldn't give a s*** about Paddys Day. I'm Scottish with Irish lineage way back when, that's all.

As has been pointed out, here it's just a commercial thing influenced by American culture more than anything else.

I’m comfortable with the idea of Hibs acknowledging St Patrick’s day. As some have pointed out, it was historically a big day for the Edinburgh Irish community. We needn’t indulge too much, but I would see it as another way of acknowledging our founding fathers. It’s harmless.

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Originally Posted by H18 SFR

My wife is Irish and as such the kids are half Irish. She sent them to school dressed in green like they do back home in Ireland on Paddy’s day. Because the kids go to a Roman Catholic school all the kids with Irish families are whipped away by the Head Teacher for a paddy’s day party at lunch time with green cup cakes etc.

The Head does this for other saints days, religious festivals, other ethnicities etc etc.

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This is great example of why schools should be non denominational, did they do any Red Nose Day activities? An us and them mentality instilled at an early age…. I hope this isn’t in Edinburgh as it breeches several basic equalities guidelines issued by the local authority for schools

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Originally Posted by hibstag

This is great example of why schools should be non denominational, did they do any Red Nose Day activities? An us and them mentality instilled at an early age…. I hope this isn’t in Edinburgh as it breeches several basic equalities guidelines issued by the local authority for schools

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Their school are very proud of their Irish heritage. The school was actually established close to where it currently is because no other school in the area would take Irish children in so the Irish community established their own school in order to educate their children.

We were actually a placement request for this particular school despite living some distance away. Only school in the authority which offer Irish language lessons and GAA coaching.

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Originally Posted by Pagan Hibernia

Not looking to start a row with this. Not one of us here want Hibs to be like some mini Celtic, some sort of east of Scotland Celtic, or any sort of try-hard wanna-be Irish organisation. We’re practically all comfortable with Hibs being an modern inclusive club open to all.

but I do find it very interesting, that on a day when clubs up and down Britain with little if any Irish connections apart from maybe the odd player are wishing their supporters a Happy St Patrick’s Day through their social media channels, our club, the one built by Edinburgh’s early Irish community, named after Ireland, that still plays in green in homage to those roots, that carries that heritage in its club badge… can’t even bring themselves to acknowledge the date. Did they forget? Or is it some sort of shame or fear that they might be labelled sectarian or offend somebody.

as you can tell from my username I’m no Christian, so the religious elements of St Patrick’s Day mean nothing to me, nor am I some flag waving zealot for Irish nationalism. I’m not even really a twitter user much so it doesn’t really bother me - I just find Hibs identity endlessly fascinating.

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Our name and badge pay tribute to our Irish roots. Tweeting an obligatory happy St Patrick’s day message or not doesn’t tell us anything. We’ve got the balance right, we’re a Scottish club, with an early Irish history, that out name and badge pay tribute to.

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Originally Posted by H18 SFR

Their school are very proud of their Irish heritage. The school was actually established close to where it currently is because no other school in the area would take Irish children in so the Irish community established their own school in order to educate their children.

We were actually a placement request for this particular school despite living some distance away. Only school in the authority which offer Irish language lessons and GAA coaching.

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Apologies but that explains it better I read the post and had visions of how angry I’d be if my daughter came back from STJV on Friday saying that some kids got cake and a party but me and the polish kids never…

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Originally Posted by The Modfather

Our name and badge pay tribute to our Irish roots. Tweeting an obligatory happy St Patrick’s day message or not doesn’t tell us anything. We’ve got the balance right, we’re a Scottish club, with an early Irish history, that out name and badge pay tribute to.

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Its not an early Irish history, it was the defining point of Hibs until about ww2, so about the entire first half of the clubs history.

The first non Irish shareholders didnt come into Hibs until the 1930s i believe.

Guinness and others hijacked St Patricks Day a long time ago.
Is there any country on this planet that does not have a Irish theme bar ?

On a visit years ago to the coastal holiday port/resort just north of Sousse in Tunisia we visited The Puca Irish Pub.
The only Irish theme pub i had ever visited that did not sell Guinness !
Its Irish qualification was a framed. painting of a shillelagh on the wall ,so i guess that counted.
Some previous guests had left tapes/cds of Irish Songs.
The barstaff had no idea of the content !!


In New York,Chicago and Boston St Patricks Day WAS a celebration of the religion roots of those millions who fled famine .

The same could be said,though on a smaller scale about "Little Ireland" in Edinburgh.
The concentration of Irish and their descendants ranged from Canongate, Hight Street all streets in between and more famously
The Cowgate and The Grassmarket /West Port.
When i was a child in the Grassmarket, 17th March was the day we went to Mass and celebrated the life and teachings of St Patrick
I was not a St Patrick's boy but went to Jesuit run "Sacred Heart of Jesus" up at Lauriston
(we stayed at 17 Grassmarket .Stair next to the vennel) Aunties/uncles /cousins in the same stair.
More family in the West Port,
Just the same all the Irish/Scots as well as Italians and Jews joined in the commemoration/celebration of St Patrick.
That was the "make up" of the population in Little Ireland and nearby streets.
But their were few lum hats and lepprechauns.Most hudnae two pennies to rub together.
A wee bit of shamrock from grocers shop or oft gifted by others who had it sent from Ireland
It was not uncommon to hear Irish folk songs and Catholic hymns sung in "Hibs"pubs and house parties in my early days.
(after the patrons had attended Mass!)
"Hail Glorious St Patrick" and "Faith of our Fathers" the hymns representing both Catholic chapels in the area.
So the point i am making,i suppose, is that St Patricks Day was more religious than commercial during my childhood (50s/60s)

I wonder how many of the drinkers who crammed the pubs of the Coogate and Market yesterday knew who St Patrick was,his teachings, and his connection to the area they were supping the Stout and Whiskey?

GGTTH
HGSOP
FOOF
SOL

PS James
I would never dream of hitting a heretic or pagan over the head with a soft cudgel :greengrin

St Patrick was sat with us all on May 21st 2016.
How do i know? He told me !

:singing: In the war against rangers in the fight for the cup
When Anthony Stokes put Hibernian one up
We've done it before ,we shall do it again
Oh come to our aid in our battle take part:singing:


HGSP

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GCCwsd3KrTM

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Originally Posted by Mick O'Rourke

Guinness and others hijacked St Patricks Day a long time ago.
Is there any country on this planet that does not have a Irish theme bar ?

On a visit years ago to the coastal holiday resort of north of Sousse in Tunisia we visited The Puca Irish Pub
The only Irish theme pub i had ever visited that did not sell Guinness
Its Irish qualification was a framed. painting of a shillelagh on the wall ,so i guess that counted.
Some previous guests had left tapes/cds of Irish Songs.
The barstaff had no idea of the content !!


In New York,Chicago and Boston St Patricks Day WAS a celebration of the religion roots of those millions who fled famine .

The same could be said,though on a smaller scale about "Little Ireland" in Edinburgh.
The concentration of Irish and their descendants ranged from Canongate, Hight Street all streets in between and more famously
The Cowgate and The Grassmarket /West Port.
When i was a child in the Grassmarket, 17th March was the day we went to Mass and celebrated the life and teachings of St Patrick
I was not a St Patrick's boy but went to Jesuit run "Sacred Heart of Jesus" up at Lauriston
(we stayed at 17 Grassmarket .Stair next to the vennel) Aunties/uncles /cousins in the same stair.
More family in the West Port,
Just the same all the Irish/Scots as well as Italians and Jews joined in the commemoration/celebration of St Patrick.
That was the "make up" of the population in Little Ireland and nearby streets.
But their were few lum hats and lepprechauns.Most hudnae two pennies to rub together.
It was not uncommon to hear Irish folk songs and Catholic hymns sung in "Hibs"pubs and house parties in my early days.
(after the patrons had attended Mass!)
"Hail Glorious St Patrick" and "Faith of our Fathers" the hymns representing both Catholic chapels in the area.
So the point i am making,i suppose, is that St Patricks Day was more religious than commercial during my childhood (50s/60s)

I wonder how many of the drinkers who crammed the pubs of the Coogate and Market yesterday knew who St Patrick was,his teachings, and his connection to the area they were supping the Stout and Whiskey?

GGTTH
HGSOP
FOOF
SOL

PS James
I would never dream of hitting a heretic or pagan over the head with a soft cudgel :greengrin

St Patrick was sat with us all on May 21st 2016.
How do i know? He told me !

:singing: In the war against rangers in the fight for the cup
When Anthony Stokes put Hibernian one up
We've done it before ,we shall do it again
Oh come to our aid in our battle take part:singing:


HGSP

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I do think the largely historically Presbyterian make up of the Scottish population plays a part in why something like St Andrew's Day has never had the same fuss as St Patrick's Day (and why the latter only caught on in the mainstream when Guinness realised the marketing potential).I could probably still reel of the feast days of most of the 'big hitter' Saints without too much effort purely because I remember seeing them (and still see them) in the Church bulletin. I wonder how many Scots were aware it was the feast of one of our great Saints in midweek, St John Ogilvie?

But then why would they? Since the 16th century the dominant religion in Scotland has preached against the veneration of Saints so St Andrew's Day would have been no more important than any other day. Same reason as to why New Year was dominant over Christmas in Scotland for centuries. It was referenced above, in Ireland St Patrick's Day was a day off work, a day to go to Mass and then a day to celebrate. For the best part of 4 centuries such celebrations were alien to a majority of Scots and largely still are although that's primarily down to atheism rather than Calvinism these days.

It's not just our club who aren't really bothered, it's our fans too by all accounts.

Other than this thread, not a peep about St Patrick's day!

On a similar note, as a reminder, it's Mother's Day tomorrow :)

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Originally Posted by James Stephen

Its not an early Irish history, it was the defining point of Hibs until about ww2, so about the entire first half of the clubs history.

The first non Irish shareholders didnt come into Hibs until the 1930s i believe.

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Yes and some would attempt during the 50s to dilute our history/beginnings.
Am not so much referring to the Celtic Park Irish flag debate which our club got embroiled in.
Something was going on behind the scenes at ER/
I mind incidents early 60s where Hibs fans got ejected from grounds for either singing Irish songs are waving tricolour.

Shame our contemporary law officers cannot be as vociferous in dealing with unlawful sectarian shenanigans week in, week out at grounds in Scotland when the zombie hordes turn up.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mick O'Rourke

Yes and some would attempt during the 50s to dilute our history/beginnings.
Am not so much referring to the Celtic Park Irish flag debate which our club got embroiled in.
Something was going on behind the scenes at ER/
I mind incidents early 60s where Hibs fans got ejected from grounds for either singing Irish songs are waving tricolour.

Shame our contemporary law officers cannot be as vociferous in dealing with unlawful sectarian shenanigans week in, week out at grounds in Scotland when the zombie hordes turn up.

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It was Harry Swan i think, who got rid of the harp, changed the strips and would have gone further - he wanted go the whole hog and change Hibs shirts to Arsenal shirts, not just the white sleeves but the whole red body too, according to one of Mackays Hibs history books.

I suspect the famous five, and a young male population flush with British nationalism post ww2 brought a lot of non traditional glory hunting Hibs supporters, along with slum clearances breaking up the Hibs communities around the same time.

These new fans will have brought Scotlands own, deeply ingrained anti Irish / anti Catholic attitudes to the newly sanitised Hibs of Swan.

Celtic winning European Cup in 67 no doubt cemented the migration of many Hibernian supporters to Celtic who offered glory and a sense of identity to them.

In effect, Swan sold out some of what made Hibs, Hibs, to chase commercial success and attract huge crowds. Its inevitable the vast majority of those new fans would be hostile to catholicism, because Scottish society was at large. And the debate has raged among Hibs fans ever since.

Its a fascinating history, and does i think lead to an indirect effect on the pitch.

Hearts for example have no such debates about their identity, irs as rock solid today as it was in 1874, they are Edinburgh's club, and their single minded aim is to be that on the pitch. And they often do, as their record suggests. There is no pretension to a certain style or marketed version of identity on the pitch that Hibs have, its about winning, and being Edinburghs top dog.

I think one ofnthe amazing things about clubs, is how their identities manifest on the pitch, despite players, managers etc changing. Their supports, imo, pass them on and carry them on.

Yes PB
I recognise and know the story of (blessed) St John Ogilvie
Whilst the campaign to canonise Ogilvie was going on a similar was being waged for Margaret Sinclair(nun) from our parish of St Patrick's
Proud to say, my mothers parents, James Devlin and Bridget Flynn knew Margaret in her childhood/schooldays
Their is a shrine to Margaret at St Patricks Sister Mary Francis of the Five Wounds

She of course for many years was interred at Mount Vernon and i would often pass by and say hello and a prayer when visiting relatives at Mount Vernon.

Well OK have your Patrick’s Day message if you wish but can we also have a St George’s Day one in Memmory of Joe Baker and perhaps the Brazilian national day, whenever that might be, for our previous great Ally Brazil?

Actually forget it - let’s not get involved in any of this stupid tokenism.



=Pagan Hibernia;7309210]Not looking to start a row with this. Not one of us here want Hibs to be like some mini Celtic, some sort of east of Scotland Celtic, or any sort of try-hard wanna-be Irish organisation. We’re practically all comfortable with Hibs being an modern inclusive club open to all.

but I do find it very interesting, that on a day when clubs up and down Britain with little if any Irish connections apart from maybe the odd player are wishing their supporters a Happy St Patrick’s Day through their social media channels, our club, the one built by Edinburgh’s early Irish community, named after Ireland, that still plays in green in homage to those roots, that carries that heritage in its club badge… can’t even bring themselves to acknowledge the date. Did they forget? Or is it some sort of shame or fear that they might be labelled sectarian or offend somebody.

as you can tell from my username I’m no Christian, so the religious elements of St Patrick’s Day mean nothing to me, nor am I some flag waving zealot for Irish nationalism. I’m not even really a twitter user much so it doesn’t really bother me - I just find Hibs identity endlessly fascinating.[/QUOTE]

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Originally Posted by James Stephen

It was Harry Swan i think, who got rid of the harp, changed the strips and would have gone further - he wanted go the whole hog and change Hibs shirts to Arsenal shirts, not just the white sleeves but the whole red body too, according to one of Mackays Hibs history books.

I suspect the famous five, and a young male population flush with British nationalism post ww2 brought a lot of non traditional glory hunting Hibs supporters, along with slum clearances breaking up the Hibs communities around the same time.

These new fans will have brought Scotlands own, deeply ingrained anti Irish / anti Catholic attitudes to the newly sanitised Hibs of Swan.

Celtic winning European Cup in 67 no doubt cemented the migration of many Hibernian supporters to Celtic who offered glory and a sense of identity to them.

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That certainly did.
I had some pals at school who when they left and got a job off to to Glasgow Celtic it was.

We also lost many fans over the Harp disgrace (imo)
I am told that the Edinburgh No 1 CSC coach that use to leave from the Canongate/Southside with (initially)a contingent of ex Hibs on board was founded on the back of the Harp incident and the perception that masons at the club were behind it with Swan .
So did not go down well (to put it mildly) with practising Catholic support of Hibernian.
I knew a few who eventually went to Lisbon 67 and Milan 71 but were Hibs fans at school.

Jimmy O'Rourke,when he met some of them in pubs (and he knew them from youth in the southside area) would address them as TC
When asked what he meant,he would reply Turn Coat!!:greengrin

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Originally Posted by NAE NOOKIE

I cant ever remember the club putting happy St Andrew's day on its official page or tweeting it either.

If folk wan't St Patrick's day content just turn on the telly, you can't miss it .... Guinness have a lot to answer for :greengrin

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It's pretty much an American holiday now for all the pretend Irish like old Joe Biden.

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Originally Posted by NAE NOOKIE

The club is called Hibernian, it plays in green and white and it has an Irish harp in it's badge .... I think we acknowledge our Irish roots just fine and anybody who takes the Easter Road tour is left in no doubt who the club's original founders were and where they came from. It's the same for anybody who looks at our Wikipedia page where the club's early history is well documented.

IMO the balance we have is just fine. Hibs were indeed formed by Irishmen, which everybody who supports the club is more than happy to acknowledge, but mate, 95% of it's modern day support is Scottish and I'm willing to bet more than half of the remaining 5% is English ..... If as we all claim the club is the fans it's a hell of a long time since this was an Irish club.

The OP was on about St Patrick's day .... I love this club, but that means absolutely nothing to me. If Hibs choose to get closer to the club's Irish roots then get bloody Guinness to sponsor us and chuck a few million at the club.

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Kinda reminds me about players kissing the badge when they score a goal. Like its a statement.

Jimmy O' use to say " i didn't need to kiss the badge !"

Celtic use their "irishness' as a marketing tool, it has nothing to do with charity.

Hibs don't use their "irishness" to do anything of the sort. But still remember our Irish and charity values.

Because celtic use this tactic as a way to get income from people with Irish heritage, the label is used by celtic. And celtic basically claim it as their own, plus they'll love the fact they can get a reaction out of sevco.

The very fact celtic were set up as more of a business then Hibernian says it all, its always been about the money for them. Not the fans at the time. Not the people living bellow poverty. They're the most capitalist club in the uk.

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Originally Posted by Greencore

Celtic use their "irishness' as a marketing tool, it has nothing to do with charity.

Hibs don't use their "irishness" to do anything of the sort. But still remember our Irish and charity values.

Because celtic use this tactic as a way to get income from people with Irish heritage, the label is used by celtic. And celtic basically claim it as their own, plus they'll love the fact they can get a reaction out of sevco.

The very fact celtic were set up as more of a business then Hibernian says it all, its always been about the money for them. Not the fans at the time. Not the people living bellow poverty. They're the most capitalist club in the uk.

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Hibs try and use the Leith thing as marketing tool, and Hearts use the heart and soul of edinburgh as a marketing tool.

Its no different, they are just much more successful at doing it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Greencore

Celtic use their "irishness' as a marketing tool, it has nothing to do with charity.

Hibs don't use their "irishness" to do anything of the sort. But still remember our Irish and charity values.

Because celtic use this tactic as a way to get income from people with Irish heritage, the label is used by celtic. And celtic basically claim it as their own, plus they'll love the fact they can get a reaction out of sevco.

The very fact celtic were set up as more of a business then Hibernian says it all, its always been about the money for them. Not the fans at the time. Not the people living bellow poverty. They're the most capitalist club in the uk.

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more capitalist than the likes of Manchester United?

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Originally Posted by Pagan Hibernia

more capitalist than the likes of Manchester United?

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Size wise no. Tactic wise to gain fans? Possibly?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by James Stephen

It was Harry Swan i think, who got rid of the harp, changed the strips and would have gone further - he wanted go the whole hog and change Hibs shirts to Arsenal shirts, not just the white sleeves but the whole red body too, according to one of Mackays Hibs history books.

I suspect the famous five, and a young male population flush with British nationalism post ww2 brought a lot of non traditional glory hunting Hibs supporters, along with slum clearances breaking up the Hibs communities around the same time.

These new fans will have brought Scotlands own, deeply ingrained anti Irish / anti Catholic attitudes to the newly sanitised Hibs of Swan.

Celtic winning European Cup in 67 no doubt cemented the migration of many Hibernian supporters to Celtic who offered glory and a sense of identity to them.

In effect, Swan sold out some of what made Hibs, Hibs, to chase commercial success and attract huge crowds. Its inevitable the vast majority of those new fans would be hostile to catholicism, because Scottish society was at large. And the debate has raged among Hibs fans ever since.

Its a fascinating history, and does i think lead to an indirect effect on the pitch.

Hearts for example have no such debates about their identity, irs as rock solid today as it was in 1874, they are Edinburgh's club, and their single minded aim is to be that on the pitch. And they often do, as their record suggests. There is no pretension to a certain style or marketed version of identity on the pitch that Hibs have, its about winning, and being Edinburghs top dog.

I think one ofnthe amazing things about clubs, is how their identities manifest on the pitch, despite players, managers etc changing. Their supports, imo, pass them on and carry them on.

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This again.

The first two things Harry Swan did was brought in a Catholic Monsignor as club chaplin and had green goal nets installed. The Harp on the outside of the ground was removed as that part of the ground was being demolished 20 years into Swan's tenure. Funnily we are still called Hibernian and still play in green and white, things Harry Swan had 25 years to change but didn't.

Hearts are barry, says you over and over.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Greencore

Celtic use their "irishness' as a marketing tool, it has nothing to do with charity.

Hibs don't use their "irishness" to do anything of the sort. But still remember our Irish and charity values.

Because celtic use this tactic as a way to get income from people with Irish heritage, the label is used by celtic. And celtic basically claim it as their own, plus they'll love the fact they can get a reaction out of sevco.

The very fact celtic were set up as more of a business then Hibernian says it all, its always been about the money for them. Not the fans at the time. Not the people living bellow poverty. They're the most capitalist club in the uk.

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Celtic fans don't seem all that bothered about Irishness, unless it has to do with the IRA.

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Originally Posted by Kato

This again.

The first two things Harry Swan did was brought in a Catholic Monsignor as club chaplin and had green goal nets installed. The Harp on the outside of the ground was removed as that part of the ground was being demolished 20 years into Swan's tenure. Funnily we are still called Hibernian and still play in green and white, things Harry Swan had 25 years to change but didn't.

Hearts are barry, says you over and over.

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So Swan didnt get rid of the harp? So what happened to it?

And he did try and change the colours, to red, when he changed the strip. And of course got rid of the hitherto sacred green jerseys, by introducing white.

Im not saying Swan was anti Catholic, i think thats mad. But he undoubtedly sold out history and tradition to appeal to a wider fan base. The post war boom in crowds and the famous five made it look wildly successful.

Swan made a calculated business decision, to market Hibs to a wider fan base, imo. Thats why the harp was replaced. I mean, it could barely be more obvious, he tried to replace the harp with a thistle. Almost literally saying, we arent irish, we are Scottish to the wider world.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kato

This again.

The first two things Harry Swan did was brought in a Catholic Monsignor as club chaplin and had green goal nets installed. The Harp on the outside of the ground was removed as that part of the ground was being demolished 20 years into Swan's tenure. Funnily we are still called Hibernian and still play in green and white, things Harry Swan had 25 years to change but didn't.

Hearts are barry, says you over and over.

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Aye he's a bit obvious👍

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Originally Posted by James Stephen

So Swan didnt get rid of the harp? So what happened to it?

And he did try and change the colours, to red, when he changed the strip. And of course got rid of the hitherto sacred green jerseys, by introducing white.

Im not saying Swan was anti Catholic, i think thats mad. But he undoubtedly sold out history and tradition to appeal to a wider fan base. The post war boom in crowds and the famous five made it look wildly successful.

Swan made a calculated business decision, to market Hibs to a wider fan base, imo. Thats why the harp was replaced. I mean, it could barely be more obvious, he tried to replace the harp with a thistle. Almost literally saying, we arent irish, we are Scottish to the wider world.

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What was the harp replaced with. We had played for quite a few years before Swan without a badge on the strips. What replaced it? We had played in white jerseys before we had green jerseys so an argument could be made that he was embracing tradition by having green and white.

Do you have sources for all this? Celtic message boards don't count.



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Originally Posted by DIXIHIBS

Aye he's a bit obvious👍

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Bit strange if your calling the guy a jambo when he is a hibs supporter and has written a hibs book 🙄

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Originally Posted by Bridge hibs

Bit strange if your calling the guy a jambo when he is a hibs supporter and has written a hibs book [emoji849]

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His views on Hearts don't stack up. If their identity is merely that of "Edinburgh's premier club" where does the thick seam of anti-catholicism come from and why doesn't he address that?

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Originally Posted by Bridge hibs

Bit strange if your calling the guy a jambo when he is a hibs supporter and has written a hibs book 🙄

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No idea if he is a jambo or not but constantly talks up hertz and talks down hibs on here. Strange outlook for a hibs fan imho.

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Originally Posted by DIXIHIBS

No idea if he is a jambo or not but constantly talks up hertz and talks down hibs on here. Strange outlook for a hibs fan imho.

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That's where I'm at. Don't care what team he supports.

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Originally Posted by DIXIHIBS

No idea if he is a jambo or not but constantly talks up hertz and talks down hibs on here. Strange outlook for a hibs fan imho.

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Oh ffs, there are plenty hibs fans that do that regularly on here, not just him 🤣

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Originally Posted by Bridge hibs

Oh ffs, there are plenty hibs fans that do that regularly on here, not just him [emoji1787]

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They get pulled up too.

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Originally Posted by Bridge hibs

Oh ffs, there are plenty hibs fans that do that regularly on here, not just him 🤣

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Thats all right then👍

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Originally Posted by WhileTheChief..

It's not just our club who aren't really bothered, it's our fans too by all accounts.

Other than this thread, not a peep about St Patrick's day!

On a similar note, as a reminder, it's Mother's Day tomorrow :)

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Ha! So it turns out Mothers Day was actually a religious celebration and nothing to do with yer actual mother.
500 years ago and more, people would walk miles to attend the (mother) church where they were baptised and reacquaint themselves with the people in the place of their birth.
When it went off to America in the 18th century it came back as another, commercially driven, celebration of our mothers. Not a bad thing but definitely interesting, for me at least.

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Originally Posted by Kato

What was the harp replaced with. We had played for quite a few years before Swan without a badge on the strips. What replaced it? We had played in white jerseys before we had green jerseys so an argument could be made that he was embracing tradition by having green and white.

Do you have sources for all this? Celtic message boards don't count.



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The red colour change is from one of Mackays Hibs books (cant recall which one, apologies). The harp was quietly removed, and replaced with firstly some random thistle, and then by the crown and ball badge.

Hibs were literally known for decades as the green jerseys. It was Swan who introduced the white.

If you dont think Swan got rid of the harp, what do you think happened, and why do you think it was removed and replaced?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kato

His views on Hearts don't stack up. If their identity is merely that of "Edinburgh's premier club" where does the thick seam of anti-catholicism come from and why doesn't he address that?

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Thats obvious, because Edinburgh in general had a thick seam of anti cahtolicism, it was not controversial, it was mainstream. The subtext of being the Edinburgh team is that they represented respectable, Scottish, prebyterian Edinburgh folk. Hibs were the outsiders, the 'other', the immigrants etc.

Its obviously not the same now, but it has undoubtedly shaped the nature of the rivalry, and was the dominant dynamic for decades

And when i speak about Hearts identity, i mean how they see themselves. How true it is, or isnt, is obviously up for debate.

But to hearts fans, they are Edinburgh's team. Hibs are catholic / and or Leith.

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Originally Posted by CentreLine

Ha! So it turns out Mothers Day was actually a religious celebration and nothing to do with yer actual mother.
500 years ago and more, people would walk miles to attend the (mother) church where they were baptised and reacquaint themselves with the people in the place of their birth.
When it went off to America in the 18th century it came back as another, commercially driven, celebration of our mothers. Not a bad thing but definitely interesting, for me at least.

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Indeed, nice one.

I always had the cynical view that it was down to selling cards and flowers ;)

It's like the chat about breakfast being the most important meal of the day. It was an advertising slogan coined by Kelloggs back in the day that has stuck pretty well!!

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Originally Posted by Kato

This again.

The first two things Harry Swan did was brought in a Catholic Monsignor as club chaplin and had green goal nets installed. The Harp on the outside of the ground was removed as that part of the ground was being demolished 20 years into Swan's tenure. Funnily we are still called Hibernian and still play in green and white, things Harry Swan had 25 years to change but didn't.

Hearts are barry, says you over and over.

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Spot on m8,this pap gets regurgitated so many times you would think by now at lone of them would do some research before posting drivel.

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Originally Posted by James Stephen

Thats obvious, because Edinburgh in general had a thick seam of anti cahtolicism, it was not controversial, it was mainstream. The subtext of being the Edinburgh team is that they represented respectable, Scottish, prebyterian Edinburgh folk. Hibs were the outsiders, the 'other', the immigrants etc.

Its obviously not the same now, but it has undoubtedly shaped the nature of the rivalry, and was the dominant dynamic for decades

And when i speak about Hearts identity, i mean how they see themselves. How true it is, or isnt, is obviously up for debate.

But to hearts fans, they are Edinburgh's team. Hibs are catholic / and or Leith.

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Wonder what Hearts supporting Catholics would say to that.

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Originally Posted by Fanforlife

Wobder what Hearts supporting Catholics would say to that.

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I’ve often wondered what Catholic hearts fans think of the sectarian stuff some of their own fans come out with.

I’ve also wondered what Protestant Celtic fans (and there are some) think of the ‘Up the Ra’ stuff.

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Originally Posted by Pagan Hibernia

I’ve often wondered what Catholic hearts fans think of the sectarian stuff some of their own fans come out with.

I’ve also wondered what Protestant Celtic fans (and there are some) think of the ‘Up the Ra’ stuff.

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Mind boggling eh! Actually got a couple of RC Hearts Fans Pals who are into the RA' stuff, was same myself regarding Republican Music etc but grew out of it thankfully.

Usual "folk" songs belted out alongside "Up the RA" by the plastics

Thankfully by and large that nonsense has been eliminated from ER whilst we acknowledge our heritage proudly on our chest

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Originally Posted by Fanforlife

Wonder what Hearts supporting Catholics would say to that.

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I did say its obviously not the same now. I suspect they would say its all in the past.

But equally, their fans did disrupt a minutes silence for the pope, and do have a sectrian element to some of their suppprt that cant be denied.

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Originally Posted by Fanforlife

Spot on m8,this pap gets regurgitated so many times you would think by now at lone of them would do some research before posting drivel.

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So who decided to replace the harp as hibs badge, and when? And what were the reasons for the decision?

I'm more than happy to do research and keep learning, so if you know i would be really interested to learn?

We should be proud of our heritage imo


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Originally Posted by Fanforlife

Wonder what Hearts supporting Catholics would say to that.

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I imagine they would say what most non-catholic Hibs fans say, they’re glad that this rubbish has very little traction with the Edinburgh clubs. That’s despite the best efforts of a minority few. And of course the two cheeks who can’t understand what it means not to have a religious divide.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by James Stephen

So who decided to replace the harp as hibs badge, and when? And what were the reasons for the decision?

I'm more than happy to do research and keep learning, so if you know i would be really interested to learn?

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Read the chapters in Lugton’s book which covers the period in question.

Then do a search on line and you’ll quickly find a very good piece written by another Hibs historian which completely debunks the whole Harry Swan, changing the colours, ditching the Harp, the name. It just not the case.

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Originally Posted by superfurryhibby

Read the chapters in Lugton’s book which covers the period in question.

Then do a search on line and you’ll quickly find a very good piece written by another Hibs historian which completely debunks the whole Harry Swan, changing the colours, ditching the Harp, the name. It just not the case.

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So genuine question, what happened to the harp and who decided to ditch it? I know the whole construction thing about the harps above the entrances, but its undeniable that they were not replaced, and that the harp disappeared from Hibs during Swans reign, never to be seen again for 40 odd years.

Ive read both the article and the books, and i agree that the whole Swan was anti-catholic myth, is a myth. But like most myths, its rooted in actions. Swan undeniably was less beholden to history and tradition than any other Hibs onwer, before or since, and i think its entirely probable that he changed these things because he wanted to broaden the clubs appeal beyond the traditional suppprt. The fact a thistle was then put in its place, heavily suggests this.

The colours change is from another Hibs history (one of John Mackays books, who said that when Swan changed the shirts from the green jerseys, to the arsenal style white sleeves, he wanted to go the whole way and change to red, but that it never happened (for reasons not fully explained).

None of this is saying Swan was some nefarious character, and it could easily be argued he was correct to do what he did, but to say the guy who owned and was chairmam had nothing to do the decision to ditch the harp and sanitise the club for more mainstream Scottish sensibilities seems odd, given how much credit he gets for the obvious successes he had during his reign.

Can you imagine if Ron Gordon had wanted to scrap the badge, and change the traditional home strip, what the reaction would have been? It would be a big deal. These moves by Swan must have been even more so.

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Originally Posted by James Stephen

So genuine question, what happened to the harp and who decided to ditch it? I know the whole construction thing about the harps above the entrances, but its undeniable that they were not replaced, and that the harp disappeared from Hibs during Swans reign, never to be seen again for 40 odd years.

Ive read both the article and the books, and i agree that the whole Swan was anti-catholic myth, is a myth. But like most myths, its rooted in actions. Swan undeniably was less beholden to history and tradition than any other Hibs onwer, before or since, and i think its entirely probable that he changed these things because he wanted to broaden the clubs appeal beyond the traditional suppprt. The fact a thistle was then put in its place, heavily suggests this.

The colours change is from another Hibs history (one of John Mackays books, who said that when Swan changed the shirts from the green jerseys, to the arsenal style white sleeves, he wanted to go the whole way and change to red, but that it never happened (for reasons not fully explained).

None of this is saying Swan was some nefarious character, and it could easily be argued he was correct to do what he did, but to say the guy who owned and was chairmam had nothing to do the decision to ditch the harp and sanitise the club for more mainstream Scottish sensibilities seems odd, given how much credit he gets for the obvious successes he had during his reign.

Can you imagine if Ron Gordon had wanted to scrap the badge, and change the traditional home strip, what the reaction would have been? It would be a big deal. These moves by Swan must have been even more so.

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The harp was not “ditched” as you put it. It was removed from the entrance due to building work, a new harp mosaic was then commissioned by Harry Swan and was put in the boardroom. When he died it was presented to his widow.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CentreLine

I imagine they would say what most non-catholic Hibs fans say, they’re glad that this rubbish has very little traction with the Edinburgh clubs. That’s despite the best efforts of a minority few. And of course the two cheeks who can’t understand what it means not to have a religious divide.

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Hear hear!

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Originally Posted by Ringothedog

The harp was not “ditched” as you put it. It was removed from the entrance due to building work, a new harp mosaic was then commissioned by Harry Swan and was put in the boardroom. When he died it was presented to his widow.

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Harry from 1931 presided over Hibernian in troubled times, not just in Europe with the rise of Hitler, but also in Edinburgh.
In the pre WW2 years there was certainly anti Catholic views even from some local fascist politicians

The Protestant Action Society with the slogan, No Popery and policies to "assist" Irish Catholics to "go home"
Now this Society had 11 councillors elected to the City Council up at the Chambers.
Most of those councillors represented wards/seats in Leith..... Sad i know !.
As i read about this period and the Morningside Riots and tying it in with the Swan controversy /conspiracies.
I think Harry thought he had a dilemma .
War came and men and women returning turned their back on groups like John Cormack and his sectarian band of bigots and those that believed all their ills was the fault of "Irish Catholics". (many who had never been to Ireland !)
John Cormack could be described as an early Ian Paisley/Jack Glass ,but more dangerous.

Harry was in no way anti Catholic,I just think he thought small changes (not replacing Harp on public display) and the crown and ball badge would benefit Hibs.and gather more local support.
Changing our colours was the hardest. Even if he was mulling that decision over, it would have led to a mass exodus of fans .So i can only guess he had very good council on that particular/possible change.

Even as a wee boy, i remember men singing on the St Giles Bus "we'll hang Harry Swan wae a rope aroond his neck"
I think also among fans then was an anti masonic feeling .
Harry did appoint a Catholic priest,who was his dear friend as a councillor at the club for players who might have sought such spiritual or other help.

Harry also i understand bore the coffin at St Patrick's of one of the last Irish members of our board which i believe also had a wreath in the shape of a broken harp.
Harry was a visionary,no one doubts that. His tenure at Hibs was certainly a turbulent and fruitful one.

Finally,you can tell i am not a Hibernian historian, but sharing thoughts and views i have had over many years:greengrin
GGTTH

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Originally Posted by Ringothedog

The harp was not “ditched” as you put it. It was removed from the entrance due to building work, a new harp mosaic was then commissioned by Harry Swan and was put in the boardroom. When he died it was presented to his widow.

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So basically harp was removed and hidden away from Hibs fans and other visitors to Easter Road until several decades later fans managed to get a harp integrated into a new Hibernian FC badge . Then a talented Hibs fan makes a copy of mosaic which is now in Ireland .
Swan was before my time but I certainly remember hearing lots of comments from Hibs and ex Hibs fans about how he was keen to remove / reduce our Irishness . This was a very commonly held opinion and had nothing to do with a few comments on Celtic fan websites in 21st century . When Tom Hart owned Hibs there were also rumours about changing club colours and there was a clampdown on traditional songs being sung at ER . Swan and Hart would probably have justified their ideas with commercial arguments . It`s then up tp supporters to decide which is more important - commercial reasons or respecting history though of course sometimes the two can go together .

The Ireland that was presented to me today at Celtic Park bears absolutely no resemblance to the Ireland that I spend a lot of time in every year and love very much with with my in laws.

I’m glad Hibs steer well clear of having to try too hard.

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Originally Posted by James Stephen

The red colour change is from one of Mackays Hibs books (cant recall which one, apologies). The harp was quietly removed, and replaced with firstly some random thistle, and then by the crown and ball badge.

Hibs were literally known for decades as the green jerseys. It was Swan who introduced the white.

If you dont think Swan got rid of the harp, what do you think happened, and why do you think it was removed and replaced?

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So no primary sources then

MacKay says the proposed change of colours and name were "rumours", he doesnt quote anything substantial at all. Since Swan actually installed green nets I'd take those rumours with a pinch of salt.

We didn't have a badge on our strips for decades. If never seen any random thistle associated with Hibs so would like to see where that was our badge. The crown and thistle thing came well after Harrower took over, supposedly ripped off from Real Madrid after we beat them.

Your also keenly avoiding the context of the Harp being removed from the entrance. The whole entrance was demolished and replaced. A new mosaic Harp was commissioned from a craftsman in Ireland and shipped over to Easter Road where it was hung in the boardroom where every visitor, opposing director and opposing chairman would see it. Why are you excluding this context?

You claim it was done for business reasons to expand the support. Why would he do that when it might easily displease our existing support?

Swan was a season ticket holder for years before buying a debenture when the new stand was built in 1924. He was the largest shareholder by 1932 and became Chairman in 1934. The entrances above which the Harp was came down in 1956. If was cashing in on the big crowds which the famous five brought its weird timing as the Famous Five were split up. He had 22 years to bring down the Harp. A long time to wait for that particular move to make the club more "acceptable" and a long after WW2 to cash in on post war unity. Doesn't stack up.

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Originally Posted by James Stephen

Thats obvious, because Edinburgh in general had a thick seam of anti cahtolicism, it was not controversial, it was mainstream. The subtext of being the Edinburgh team is that they represented respectable, Scottish, prebyterian Edinburgh folk. Hibs were the outsiders, the 'other', the immigrants etc.

Its obviously not the same now, but it has undoubtedly shaped the nature of the rivalry, and was the dominant dynamic for decades

And when i speak about Hearts identity, i mean how they see themselves. How true it is, or isnt, is obviously up for debate.

But to hearts fans, they are Edinburgh's team. Hibs are catholic / and or Leith.

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If you see their bigotry but want to see it as "respectable" or have it metaphorically expressed within the phrase "Edinburgh's Premier club" you don't do yourself any favours.

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Originally Posted by Kato

If you see their bigotry but want to see it as "respectable" or have it metaphorically expressed within the phrase "Edinburgh's Premier club" you don't do yourself any favours.

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I don’t think JS has said that at all. :confused:

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Originally Posted by marinello59

I don’t think JS has said that at all. :confused:

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Didn't he?

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Originally Posted by Kato

Didn't he?

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Nope

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Originally Posted by marinello59

Nope

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Look at his initial description of Hearts "rock solid" identity, then his expansion upon it when I asked why their obvious bigoted section was omitted.

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Originally Posted by Kato

Look at his initial description of Hearts "rock solid" identity, then his expansion upon it when I asked why their obvious bigoted section was omitted.

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I’ve just looked at the post you quoted. I’ll bow out, he can defend himself. :greengrin

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Originally Posted by Ringothedog

The harp was not “ditched” as you put it. It was removed from the entrance due to building work, a new harp mosaic was then commissioned by Harry Swan and was put in the boardroom. When he died it was presented to his widow.

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It ceased to be Hibs club crest no? So it was discarded surely?

Or did everyone just forget, and it took 3 crest changes and 45 years for anyone to notice?

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Originally Posted by Kato

So no primary sources then

MacKay says the proposed change of colours and name were "rumours", he doesnt quote anything substantial at all. Since Swan actually installed green nets I'd take those rumours with a pinch of salt.

We didn't have a badge on our strips for decades. If never seen any random thistle associated with Hibs so would like to see where that was our badge. The crown and thistle thing came well after Harrower took over, supposedly ripped off from Real Madrid after we beat them.

Your also keenly avoiding the context of the Harp being removed from the entrance. The whole entrance was demolished and replaced. A new mosaic Harp was commissioned from a craftsman in Ireland and shipped over to Easter Road where it was hung in the boardroom where every visitor, opposing director and opposing chairman would see it. Why are you excluding this context?

You claim it was done for business reasons to expand the support. Why would he do that when it might easily displease our existing support?

Swan was a season ticket holder for years before buying a debenture when the new stand was built in 1924. He was the largest shareholder by 1932 and became Chairman in 1934. The entrances above which the Harp was came down in 1956. If was cashing in on the big crowds which the famous five brought its weird timing as the Famous Five were split up. He had 22 years to bring down the Harp. A long time to wait for that particular move to make the club more "acceptable" and a long after WW2 to cash in on post war unity. Doesn't stack up.

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But you accept Swan changed the shirt and the colours (from green, to green and white)? And you accept the harp disappeared from the stadium and the was no longer the club crest under his ownership?

As for the thistle, i have seen it on matchday programmes from the period, so that is a primary source.

Why would he do it for business reasons? Because he thought that irishness/catholicism would put non catholics off. Im sure he would have seen it as moving with the times.

Ultimately we will never know his motivations, but it is pretty much a fact that the harp disappeared as Hibs crest under him - so someone on his board, and then subsequent Hibs owners obviously felt something against it as a symbol of Hibernian. What that might have been, is obviously open to interpretation, and we will all have our own thoughts of what that might be.

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Originally Posted by Kato

If you see their bigotry but want to see it as "respectable" or have it metaphorically expressed within the phrase "Edinburgh's Premier club" you don't do yourself any favours.

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I dont follow.

Im describing how i see Hearts identity, from their perspective. Their bigotry was respectable, it was normal, mainstream, and instituional in every aspect of Scottish society. It was official policy of the Church of Scotland, the very institution some historians see as Scotland's de facto government until the latter 20th century.

The OP highlights a subject that I've thought long and hard about over the years.

By DNA I am 69% Irish, 25% Scottish and the rest Scandinavian. I have been a Hibs supporter for 50 years of my life and was brought up within a mile from the Holy Ground.

By birth and nationality I have only ever considered myself Scottish and have travelled far and wide supporting the Scottish national team.

However, I celebrate St Patrick's day far more than St Andrews day. I love Ireland, but I really don't understand why St Andrews Day is not celebrated in the same way and that hurts me. Maybe because we're still tied into a union responsible for despicable crimes the world over - sorry I digress, the last bit should be for THG board.

Hibs should celebrate both St Patrick's day and St Andrews day in equal measure, but in reality they do none.

Glory Glory to the Hibees.

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Originally Posted by Kato

Look at his initial description of Hearts "rock solid" identity, then his expansion upon it when I asked why their obvious bigoted section was omitted.

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I was describing their rock solid sense of their own identity. Its never changed, ive got a book written in the 50s by a hearts supporting journalist, where he literally describes just that, they are 'Edina's darlings' (he even, rather patronisingly, suggests that even 'their friends' at Hibs wouldn't object to that description, such is the affectiom of the city for their favourites (im paraphrasing, but the language is very much of that ilk)

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Originally Posted by James Stephen

I was describing their rock solid sense of their own identity. Its never changed, ive got a book written in the 50s by a hearts supporting journalist, where he literally describes just that, they are 'Edina's darlings' (he even, rather patronisingly, suggests that even 'their friends' at Hibs wouldn't object to that description, such is the affectiom of the city for their favourites (im paraphrasing, but the language is very much of that ilk)

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Is that it?

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Originally Posted by Kato

So no primary sources then

MacKay says the proposed change of colours and name were "rumours", he doesnt quote anything substantial at all. Since Swan actually installed green nets I'd take those rumours with a pinch of salt.

We didn't have a badge on our strips for decades. If never seen any random thistle associated with Hibs so would like to see where that was our badge. The crown and thistle thing came well after Harrower took over, supposedly ripped off from Real Madrid after we beat them.

Your also keenly avoiding the context of the Harp being removed from the entrance. The whole entrance was demolished and replaced. A new mosaic Harp was commissioned from a craftsman in Ireland and shipped over to Easter Road where it was hung in the boardroom where every visitor, opposing director and opposing chairman would see it. Why are you excluding this context?

You claim it was done for business reasons to expand the support. Why would he do that when it might easily displease our existing support?

Swan was a season ticket holder for years before buying a debenture when the new stand was built in 1924. He was the largest shareholder by 1932 and became Chairman in 1934. The entrances above which the Harp was came down in 1956. If was cashing in on the big crowds which the famous five brought its weird timing as the Famous Five were split up. He had 22 years to bring down the Harp. A long time to wait for that particular move to make the club more "acceptable" and a long after WW2 to cash in on post war unity. Doesn't stack up.

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Also, the whole entrance thing is a complete red herring. The reason people focus on that is because it is a very physical example. I totally accept that things can be lost in construction, but equally rebuilding an entrance doesnt necessitate changing a clubs badge. Its not thay the badge was removed, understandably, during construction,its that it disappeared completepy from any public association with the club for decades thereafter.

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Originally Posted by Kato

Is that it?

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Is that what?

Also id love to see your primary sources, are you able to share them?

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Originally Posted by James Stephen

Is that what?

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A quote from some auld jambos book, obviously. A more self agrandising bunch you'd rarely meet.

When Hearts started they were no different to Hibs, St Bernards or Leith Athletic.

You see them as "Edinburgh's Premier Club" but ignore a strong streak of bigotry which is still present or seek to show it by presenting anti-catholicism as normal.

The reason they behave that way is because Hibernian were Catholic. That aspect of their "rock solid" identity is in reality defined by our identity. They have bigots because we were a catholic team. That's weakness and not "rock solid" at all.

Yes, Edinburgh had many strands of anti-Catholism but it wasn't normal, neither was it "respectable". Many people in Edinburgh shunned bigotry, some protestants were Hibs sympathisers simply because we played in aid of their Protestant charities.

The language around your perceived view that Harry Swan wanted Hibs catholicism "sanitised" is revealing whether its conscious or not and doesn't look all that great next to Hearts bigotry being seen portrayed "respectable".

Your initial views were...

"It was Harry Swan i think, who got rid of the harp, changed the strips and would have gone further - he wanted go the whole hog and change Hibs shirts to Arsenal shirts, not just the white sleeves but the whole red body too, according to one of Mackays Hibs history books.
I suspect the famous five, and a young male population flush with British nationalism post ww2 brought a lot of non traditional glory hunting Hibs supporters, along with slum clearances breaking up the Hibs communities around the same time."

...and they just don't stack up given the nuance and circumstance around the removal of the Harp, which you want to present in most simple and anachronistic way, the fact that we played in green throughout his tenure as well as to this day and the fact that we have always been Hibernian FC.

You also claim.


"These new fans will have brought Scotlands own, deeply ingrained anti Irish / anti Catholic attitudes to the newly sanitised Hibs of Swan."

Prove that.

Where is your evidence that Hibs brought in new Anti-catholic fans to the club because of Swan getting rid of green sleeves, unsubstantiated rumours from the 30's and the Harp being removed in 1956.

It just sounds like hogwash.

It also ignores the fact that not everyone saw life through "Scotlands deeply ingrained anti" whatever you seem to wish.

EG - My family are total heathens, neither catholic or protestant, hate bigots and have had Hibs fans within for 3 generations. I did have an episcopalian, jambo grandad but nobody liked him.

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Originally Posted by Kato

A quote from some auld jambos book, obviously. A more self agrandising bunch you'd rarely meet.

When Hearts started they were no different to Hibs, St Bernards or Leith Athletic.

You see them as "Edinburgh's Premier Club" but ignore a strong streak of bigotry which is still present or seek to show it by presenting anti-catholicism as normal.

The reason they behave that way is because Hibernian were Catholic. That aspect of their "rock solid" identity is in reality defined by our identity. They have bigots because we were a catholic team. That's weakness and not "rock solid" at all.

Yes, Edinburgh had many strands of anti-Catholism but it wasn't normal, neither was it "respectable". Many people in Edinburgh shunned bigotry, some protestants were Hibs sympathisers simply because we played in aid of their Protestant charities.

The language around your perceived view that Harry Swan wanted Hibs catholicism "sanitised" is revealing whether its conscious or not and doesn't look all that great next to Hearts bigotry being seen portrayed "respectable".

Your initial views were...

"It was Harry Swan i think, who got rid of the harp, changed the strips and would have gone further - he wanted go the whole hog and change Hibs shirts to Arsenal shirts, not just the white sleeves but the whole red body too, according to one of Mackays Hibs history books.
I suspect the famous five, and a young male population flush with British nationalism post ww2 brought a lot of non traditional glory hunting Hibs supporters, along with slum clearances breaking up the Hibs communities around the same time."

...and they just don't stack up given the nuance and circumstance around the removal of the Harp, which you want to present in most simple and anachronistic way, the fact that we played in green throughout his tenure as well as to this day and the fact that we have always been Hibernian FC.

You also claim.


"These new fans will have brought Scotlands own, deeply ingrained anti Irish / anti Catholic attitudes to the newly sanitised Hibs of Swan."

Prove that.

Where is your evidence that Hibs brought in new Anti-catholic fans to the club because of Swan getting rid of green sleeves, unsubstantiated rumours from the 30's and the Harp being removed in 1956.

It just sounds like hogwash.

It also ignores the fact that not everyone saw life through "Scotlands deeply ingrained anti" whatever you seem to wish.

EG - My family are total heathens, neither catholic or protestant, hate bigots and have had Hibs fans within for 3 generations. I did have an episcopalian, jambo grandad but nobody liked him.

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Unless I’m missing something, he agrees re. the bigotry. He’s just explaining their own deluded self perception.

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Originally Posted by Kato

A quote from some auld jambos book, obviously. A more self agrandising bunch you'd rarely meet.

When Hearts started they were no different to Hibs, St Bernards or Leith Athletic.

You see them as "Edinburgh's Premier Club" but ignore a strong streak of bigotry which is still present or seek to show it by presenting anti-catholicism as normal.

The reason they behave that way is because Hibernian were Catholic. That aspect of their "rock solid" identity is in reality defined by our identity. They have bigots because we were a catholic team. That's weakness and not "rock solid" at all.

Yes, Edinburgh had many strands of anti-Catholism but it wasn't normal, neither was it "respectable". Many people in Edinburgh shunned bigotry, some protestants were Hibs sympathisers simply because we played in aid of their Protestant charities.

The language around your perceived view that Harry Swan wanted Hibs catholicism "sanitised" is revealing whether its conscious or not and doesn't look all that great next to Hearts bigotry being seen portrayed "respectable".

Your initial views were...

"It was Harry Swan i think, who got rid of the harp, changed the strips and would have gone further - he wanted go the whole hog and change Hibs shirts to Arsenal shirts, not just the white sleeves but the whole red body too, according to one of Mackays Hibs history books.
I suspect the famous five, and a young male population flush with British nationalism post ww2 brought a lot of non traditional glory hunting Hibs supporters, along with slum clearances breaking up the Hibs communities around the same time."

...and they just don't stack up given the nuance and circumstance around the removal of the Harp, which you want to present in most simple and anachronistic way, the fact that we played in green throughout his tenure as well as to this day and the fact that we have always been Hibernian FC.

You also claim.


"These new fans will have brought Scotlands own, deeply ingrained anti Irish / anti Catholic attitudes to the newly sanitised Hibs of Swan."

Prove that.

Where is your evidence that Hibs brought in new Anti-catholic fans to the club because of Swan getting rid of green sleeves, unsubstantiated rumours from the 30's and the Harp being removed in 1956.

It just sounds like hogwash.

It also ignores the fact that not everyone saw life through "Scotlands deeply ingrained anti" whatever you seem to wish.

EG - My family are total heathens, neither catholic or protestant, hate bigots and have had Hibs fans within for 3 generations. I did have an episcopalian, jambo grandad but nobody liked him.

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How can i be ignoring something im repeatedly pointing out??

If you disagree that religion or anti irish views were prevalent, or normal, thats fine, its all opinion.

Id simply point to the political partty Protestant Action, who Mick O'Rourke mentioned above, being the most sucvessful extreme political party in UK history (until the BNP in towee hamlets in the 2000s i believe) in the 1930s local elections in Edinburgh, winning around 1/3rd of the vote, at a time of anti catholic riots, priests being attacked and attempted ransackings of St Pats by angry mobs.

And it is inconcievable that as Hibs crowds doubled in the famous five era, most of those new fans wouldnt have come from non catholic section of society. Where else could they have come from? And if Edinburgh society was bigoted at large, it follows logically that a percentage (probably large) of those new fans had similar views.

Incidentally, much of their electoral success was in Leith, an area with large protestant, working class vote. Also incidentally, this was around the same time Swan emerged and got involved with Hibs. I think its unlikely he wouldnt have been aware of such social strife and attitudes among his potential customers (as he would have seen them). And yes i do have primary sources for Leithers, born and bred on easyer road, who didnt like Hibs, and instead followed Hearts for reasons of religion. And yes, also Hibs fans who were CoS members and who had surprisingly strong attitudes to Catholics. The complexities of football clubs never fails to surprise or amaze.

For everyone who says Swan didnt remove the harp, nobody has been able to say who did, or why. The fact remains it happened while Swan was owner, so it seems unlikely he had nothing to do with it, and given his track record of modernisation, i think its reasonable to assume he saw 'modernising Hibs' to appeal to more broad base of fans as reasonsble, and it seems in keeping with both his actions and his character. Im also sure he thought he was doing what was in the clubs best interests.

And these are views i have reached from looking into the histry of both clubs, as well as Edinburgh. Of course, your views are just as valid, although id suggest you have got the wrong end of the stick how you have picked up some of what ive said.

Ive enjoyed our discussion, and genuinely if you have any sources you are able to share (via PM) id love to see them, as always happy to learn more about the history of fitba in Edinburgh and Scotland.

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Originally Posted by Mick O'Rourke

Harry from 1931 presided over Hibernian in troubled times, not just in Europe with the rise of Hitler, but also in Edinburgh.
In the pre WW2 years there was certainly anti Catholic views even from some local fascist politicians

The Protestant Action Society with the slogan, No Popery and policies to "assist" Irish Catholics to "go home"
Now this Society had 11 councillors elected to the City Council up at the Chambers.
Most of those councillors represented wards/seats in Leith..... Sad i know !.
As i read about this period and the Morningside Riots and tying it in with the Swan controversy /conspiracies.
I think Harry thought he had a dilemma .
War came and men and women returning turned their back on groups like John Cormack and his sectarian band of bigots and those that believed all their ills was the fault of "Irish Catholics". (many who had never been to Ireland !)
John Cormack could be described as an early Ian Paisley/Jack Glass ,but more dangerous.

Harry was in no way anti Catholic,I just think he thought small changes (not replacing Harp on public display) and the crown and ball badge would benefit Hibs.and gather more local support.
Changing our colours was the hardest. Even if he was mulling that decision over, it would have led to a mass exodus of fans .So i can only guess he had very good council on that particular/possible change.

Even as a wee boy, i remember men singing on the St Giles Bus "we'll hang Harry Swan wae a rope aroond his neck"
I think also among fans then was an anti masonic feeling .
Harry did appoint a Catholic priest,who was his dear friend as a councillor at the club for players who might have sought such spiritual or other help.

Harry also i understand bore the coffin at St Patrick's of one of the last Irish members of our board which i believe also had a wreath in the shape of a broken harp.
Harry was a visionary,no one doubts that. His tenure at Hibs was certainly a turbulent and fruitful one.

Finally,you can tell i am not a Hibernian historian, but sharing thoughts and views i have had over many years:greengrin
GGTTH

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I like reading your posts, and find your thoughts, views and insightful stories very interesting

In summary Harry Swan was the Hibs chairman and owner from 1934 until he sold out to Bill Harrower in 1963 after which he became a life director until his death in 1965.

In that nearly 30 year period the harp badge that was associated with the club and that adorned the entrance to the old main stand disappeared from use, the latter from diplapidation as the wall was falling down.

Is that all there is? . I am not having a good at you but over a 30 year period that seems to be the sum total of almost flip all. That's it in a complete nutshell, Harry Swan, Hibs and the Irish question. ??

Can I suggest you are looking completely at the wrong time period as Hibs and the Irish question is all about the late 1880's when Celtic didnae "steal all our players" as that is a complete historical myth.

Instead they all left because Hibs could no longer pay them the cash back handers (laughingly called expenses) as the club was split in two between the religious founders who were against the violence advocated by the younger club members over the question of Irish Home rule as being proposed by England during their period of colonial occupation of Ireland.

Hibs as a result were torn to pieces with resignations of all the clubs commitee men and went bankrupt accenuated by internal theft by the club secretary who ran off to Canada with the clubs money.

As a result there was no Hibs club in existence for nearly two years and the club that was then resurrected from the ashes was a completely different entity free from the religious and Irish political baggage of two years previously.

As with Rangers old and new it is completely fair to argue that Hibs were formed in 1887 and not 1875 as that original club died after been torn apart by Irish church and political strife.

Harry Swan (one of Hibs finest owners) is a tiny insignificant footnote in comparison.

I would recommend reading the discussion on here. It dispels the myths around Harry Swan, anti catholicism, the removal of the harp above the old entrance to the main stand.

https://foot.ie/threads/11886-Hibern...History/page2?

Lugton says this (p165, the Making of Hibernian, vol 3)

“Myths about Swan’s chairmanship which were stirred up by elements from outside Hibernian, but even today some of these myths survive amongst Hibs supporters”

I’m going to paraphrase now

Swan was a passionate Hibs fan before he was first elected to the board, in 1931 ( he would leave the board, before returning as chairman in 1933).

Swan appointed his close friend Monsignor Miley as club chaplain on his assumption of the chairmanship.

Far from changing the colours, he prompted the addition of the white sleeves.

Although the rise of crowds post ww2 saw the removal of priests season tickets, they were routinely provided with complimentary tickets, a tradition that outlasted Swan’s ownership of the club and continued into the 1960’s.

The Harp was in situ for 25 years after Swan became chairman. The harp mosaic that was commissioned ( from Irish craftsmen) and hung in the club boardroom was gifted to Swan’s wife on his death)

Swan retained some of the old Irish directors at Hibs. For example, Owen Brannigan served Hibs for 65 years, as a player then official, up until his death in 1945.

You mention John R McKay. The reference he makes to Swan’s tenure is brief and pretty anecdotal. He says (p120)

“ traditional supporters did not find him to their liking and felt somewhat alienated by a number of measures during his chairmanship- the requirement that priests apply for tickets to ensure their traditional free entry to Easter Road and the subsequent removal of the harp from above the main entrance to the ground, as well as the rumoured intention to change the name and the colour of the club to widen it’s appeal”

Basically, McKay is repeating without any substance a myth, with elements that have been refuted.