Hibs and the Irish question

[hibstag]

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Their school are very proud of their Irish heritage. The school was actually established close to where it currently is because no other school in the area would take Irish children in so the Irish community established their own school in order to educate their children.

We were actually a placement request for this particular school despite living some distance away. Only school in the authority which offer Irish language lessons and GAA coaching.

Apologies but that explains it better I read the post and had visions of how angry I’d be if my daughter came back from STJV on Friday saying that some kids got cake and a party but me and the polish kids never…

[James Stephen]

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Our name and badge pay tribute to our Irish roots. Tweeting an obligatory happy St Patrick’s day message or not doesn’t tell us anything. We’ve got the balance right, we’re a Scottish club, with an early Irish history, that out name and badge pay tribute to.

Its not an early Irish history, it was the defining point of Hibs until about ww2, so about the entire first half of the clubs history.

The first non Irish shareholders didnt come into Hibs until the 1930s i believe.

[Mick O'Rourke]

Guinness and others hijacked St Patricks Day a long time ago.
Is there any country on this planet that does not have a Irish theme bar ?

On a visit years ago to the coastal holiday port/resort just north of Sousse in Tunisia we visited The Puca Irish Pub.
The only Irish theme pub i had ever visited that did not sell Guinness !
Its Irish qualification was a framed. painting of a shillelagh on the wall ,so i guess that counted.
Some previous guests had left tapes/cds of Irish Songs.
The barstaff had no idea of the content !!


In New York,Chicago and Boston St Patricks Day WAS a celebration of the religion roots of those millions who fled famine .

The same could be said,though on a smaller scale about "Little Ireland" in Edinburgh.
The concentration of Irish and their descendants ranged from Canongate, Hight Street all streets in between and more famously
The Cowgate and The Grassmarket /West Port.
When i was a child in the Grassmarket, 17th March was the day we went to Mass and celebrated the life and teachings of St Patrick
I was not a St Patrick's boy but went to Jesuit run "Sacred Heart of Jesus" up at Lauriston
(we stayed at 17 Grassmarket .Stair next to the vennel) Aunties/uncles /cousins in the same stair.
More family in the West Port,
Just the same all the Irish/Scots as well as Italians and Jews joined in the commemoration/celebration of St Patrick.
That was the "make up" of the population in Little Ireland and nearby streets.
But their were few lum hats and lepprechauns.Most hudnae two pennies to rub together.
A wee bit of shamrock from grocers shop or oft gifted by others who had it sent from Ireland
It was not uncommon to hear Irish folk songs and Catholic hymns sung in "Hibs"pubs and house parties in my early days.
(after the patrons had attended Mass!)
"Hail Glorious St Patrick" and "Faith of our Fathers" the hymns representing both Catholic chapels in the area.
So the point i am making,i suppose, is that St Patricks Day was more religious than commercial during my childhood (50s/60s)

I wonder how many of the drinkers who crammed the pubs of the Coogate and Market yesterday knew who St Patrick was,his teachings, and his connection to the area they were supping the Stout and Whiskey?

GGTTH
HGSOP
FOOF
SOL

PS James
I would never dream of hitting a heretic or pagan over the head with a soft cudgel

St Patrick was sat with us all on May 21st 2016.
How do i know? He told me !

In the war against rangers in the fight for the cup
When Anthony Stokes put Hibernian one up
We've done it before ,we shall do it again
Oh come to our aid in our battle take part


HGSP

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GCCwsd3KrTM

[Pretty Boy]

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Guinness and others hijacked St Patricks Day a long time ago.
Is there any country on this planet that does not have a Irish theme bar ?

On a visit years ago to the coastal holiday resort of north of Sousse in Tunisia we visited The Puca Irish Pub
The only Irish theme pub i had ever visited that did not sell Guinness
Its Irish qualification was a framed. painting of a shillelagh on the wall ,so i guess that counted.
Some previous guests had left tapes/cds of Irish Songs.
The barstaff had no idea of the content !!


In New York,Chicago and Boston St Patricks Day WAS a celebration of the religion roots of those millions who fled famine .

The same could be said,though on a smaller scale about "Little Ireland" in Edinburgh.
The concentration of Irish and their descendants ranged from Canongate, Hight Street all streets in between and more famously
The Cowgate and The Grassmarket /West Port.
When i was a child in the Grassmarket, 17th March was the day we went to Mass and celebrated the life and teachings of St Patrick
I was not a St Patrick's boy but went to Jesuit run "Sacred Heart of Jesus" up at Lauriston
(we stayed at 17 Grassmarket .Stair next to the vennel) Aunties/uncles /cousins in the same stair.
More family in the West Port,
Just the same all the Irish/Scots as well as Italians and Jews joined in the commemoration/celebration of St Patrick.
That was the "make up" of the population in Little Ireland and nearby streets.
But their were few lum hats and lepprechauns.Most hudnae two pennies to rub together.
It was not uncommon to hear Irish folk songs and Catholic hymns sung in "Hibs"pubs and house parties in my early days.
(after the patrons had attended Mass!)
"Hail Glorious St Patrick" and "Faith of our Fathers" the hymns representing both Catholic chapels in the area.
So the point i am making,i suppose, is that St Patricks Day was more religious than commercial during my childhood (50s/60s)

I wonder how many of the drinkers who crammed the pubs of the Coogate and Market yesterday knew who St Patrick was,his teachings, and his connection to the area they were supping the Stout and Whiskey?

GGTTH
HGSOP
FOOF
SOL

PS James
I would never dream of hitting a heretic or pagan over the head with a soft cudgel

St Patrick was sat with us all on May 21st 2016.
How do i know? He told me !

In the war against rangers in the fight for the cup
When Anthony Stokes put Hibernian one up
We've done it before ,we shall do it again
Oh come to our aid in our battle take part


HGSP

I do think the largely historically Presbyterian make up of the Scottish population plays a part in why something like St Andrew's Day has never had the same fuss as St Patrick's Day (and why the latter only caught on in the mainstream when Guinness realised the marketing potential).I could probably still reel of the feast days of most of the 'big hitter' Saints without too much effort purely because I remember seeing them (and still see them) in the Church bulletin. I wonder how many Scots were aware it was the feast of one of our great Saints in midweek, St John Ogilvie?

But then why would they? Since the 16th century the dominant religion in Scotland has preached against the veneration of Saints so St Andrew's Day would have been no more important than any other day. Same reason as to why New Year was dominant over Christmas in Scotland for centuries. It was referenced above, in Ireland St Patrick's Day was a day off work, a day to go to Mass and then a day to celebrate. For the best part of 4 centuries such celebrations were alien to a majority of Scots and largely still are although that's primarily down to atheism rather than Calvinism these days.

[WhileTheChief..]

It's not just our club who aren't really bothered, it's our fans too by all accounts.

Other than this thread, not a peep about St Patrick's day!

On a similar note, as a reminder, it's Mother's Day tomorrow :)

[Mick O'Rourke]

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Its not an early Irish history, it was the defining point of Hibs until about ww2, so about the entire first half of the clubs history.

The first non Irish shareholders didnt come into Hibs until the 1930s i believe.

Yes and some would attempt during the 50s to dilute our history/beginnings.
Am not so much referring to the Celtic Park Irish flag debate which our club got embroiled in.
Something was going on behind the scenes at ER/
I mind incidents early 60s where Hibs fans got ejected from grounds for either singing Irish songs are waving tricolour.

Shame our contemporary law officers cannot be as vociferous in dealing with unlawful sectarian shenanigans week in, week out at grounds in Scotland when the zombie hordes turn up.

[James Stephen]

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Yes and some would attempt during the 50s to dilute our history/beginnings.
Am not so much referring to the Celtic Park Irish flag debate which our club got embroiled in.
Something was going on behind the scenes at ER/
I mind incidents early 60s where Hibs fans got ejected from grounds for either singing Irish songs are waving tricolour.

Shame our contemporary law officers cannot be as vociferous in dealing with unlawful sectarian shenanigans week in, week out at grounds in Scotland when the zombie hordes turn up.

It was Harry Swan i think, who got rid of the harp, changed the strips and would have gone further - he wanted go the whole hog and change Hibs shirts to Arsenal shirts, not just the white sleeves but the whole red body too, according to one of Mackays Hibs history books.

I suspect the famous five, and a young male population flush with British nationalism post ww2 brought a lot of non traditional glory hunting Hibs supporters, along with slum clearances breaking up the Hibs communities around the same time.

These new fans will have brought Scotlands own, deeply ingrained anti Irish / anti Catholic attitudes to the newly sanitised Hibs of Swan.

Celtic winning European Cup in 67 no doubt cemented the migration of many Hibernian supporters to Celtic who offered glory and a sense of identity to them.

In effect, Swan sold out some of what made Hibs, Hibs, to chase commercial success and attract huge crowds. Its inevitable the vast majority of those new fans would be hostile to catholicism, because Scottish society was at large. And the debate has raged among Hibs fans ever since.

Its a fascinating history, and does i think lead to an indirect effect on the pitch.

Hearts for example have no such debates about their identity, irs as rock solid today as it was in 1874, they are Edinburgh's club, and their single minded aim is to be that on the pitch. And they often do, as their record suggests. There is no pretension to a certain style or marketed version of identity on the pitch that Hibs have, its about winning, and being Edinburghs top dog.

I think one ofnthe amazing things about clubs, is how their identities manifest on the pitch, despite players, managers etc changing. Their supports, imo, pass them on and carry them on.

[Mick O'Rourke]

Yes PB
I recognise and know the story of (blessed) St John Ogilvie
Whilst the campaign to canonise Ogilvie was going on a similar was being waged for Margaret Sinclair(nun) from our parish of St Patrick's
Proud to say, my mothers parents, James Devlin and Bridget Flynn knew Margaret in her childhood/schooldays
Their is a shrine to Margaret at St Patricks Sister Mary Francis of the Five Wounds

She of course for many years was interred at Mount Vernon and i would often pass by and say hello and a prayer when visiting relatives at Mount Vernon.

[Islington Hibs]

Well OK have your Patrick’s Day message if you wish but can we also have a St George’s Day one in Memmory of Joe Baker and perhaps the Brazilian national day, whenever that might be, for our previous great Ally Brazil?

Actually forget it - let’s not get involved in any of this stupid tokenism.



=Pagan Hibernia;7309210]Not looking to start a row with this. Not one of us here want Hibs to be like some mini Celtic, some sort of east of Scotland Celtic, or any sort of try-hard wanna-be Irish organisation. We’re practically all comfortable with Hibs being an modern inclusive club open to all.

but I do find it very interesting, that on a day when clubs up and down Britain with little if any Irish connections apart from maybe the odd player are wishing their supporters a Happy St Patrick’s Day through their social media channels, our club, the one built by Edinburgh’s early Irish community, named after Ireland, that still plays in green in homage to those roots, that carries that heritage in its club badge… can’t even bring themselves to acknowledge the date. Did they forget? Or is it some sort of shame or fear that they might be labelled sectarian or offend somebody.

as you can tell from my username I’m no Christian, so the religious elements of St Patrick’s Day mean nothing to me, nor am I some flag waving zealot for Irish nationalism. I’m not even really a twitter user much so it doesn’t really bother me - I just find Hibs identity endlessly fascinating.[/QUOTE]

[Mick O'Rourke]

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It was Harry Swan i think, who got rid of the harp, changed the strips and would have gone further - he wanted go the whole hog and change Hibs shirts to Arsenal shirts, not just the white sleeves but the whole red body too, according to one of Mackays Hibs history books.

I suspect the famous five, and a young male population flush with British nationalism post ww2 brought a lot of non traditional glory hunting Hibs supporters, along with slum clearances breaking up the Hibs communities around the same time.

These new fans will have brought Scotlands own, deeply ingrained anti Irish / anti Catholic attitudes to the newly sanitised Hibs of Swan.

Celtic winning European Cup in 67 no doubt cemented the migration of many Hibernian supporters to Celtic who offered glory and a sense of identity to them.

That certainly did.
I had some pals at school who when they left and got a job off to to Glasgow Celtic it was.

We also lost many fans over the Harp disgrace (imo)
I am told that the Edinburgh No 1 CSC coach that use to leave from the Canongate/Southside with (initially)a contingent of ex Hibs on board was founded on the back of the Harp incident and the perception that masons at the club were behind it with Swan .
So did not go down well (to put it mildly) with practising Catholic support of Hibernian.
I knew a few who eventually went to Lisbon 67 and Milan 71 but were Hibs fans at school.

Jimmy O'Rourke,when he met some of them in pubs (and he knew them from youth in the southside area) would address them as TC
When asked what he meant,he would reply Turn Coat!!

[Lago]

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I cant ever remember the club putting happy St Andrew's day on its official page or tweeting it either.

If folk wan't St Patrick's day content just turn on the telly, you can't miss it .... Guinness have a lot to answer for

It's pretty much an American holiday now for all the pretend Irish like old Joe Biden.

[Mick O'Rourke]

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The club is called Hibernian, it plays in green and white and it has an Irish harp in it's badge .... I think we acknowledge our Irish roots just fine and anybody who takes the Easter Road tour is left in no doubt who the club's original founders were and where they came from. It's the same for anybody who looks at our Wikipedia page where the club's early history is well documented.

IMO the balance we have is just fine. Hibs were indeed formed by Irishmen, which everybody who supports the club is more than happy to acknowledge, but mate, 95% of it's modern day support is Scottish and I'm willing to bet more than half of the remaining 5% is English ..... If as we all claim the club is the fans it's a hell of a long time since this was an Irish club.

The OP was on about St Patrick's day .... I love this club, but that means absolutely nothing to me. If Hibs choose to get closer to the club's Irish roots then get bloody Guinness to sponsor us and chuck a few million at the club.

Kinda reminds me about players kissing the badge when they score a goal. Like its a statement.

Jimmy O' use to say " i didn't need to kiss the badge !"

[Greencore]

Celtic use their "irishness' as a marketing tool, it has nothing to do with charity.

Hibs don't use their "irishness" to do anything of the sort. But still remember our Irish and charity values.

Because celtic use this tactic as a way to get income from people with Irish heritage, the label is used by celtic. And celtic basically claim it as their own, plus they'll love the fact they can get a reaction out of sevco.

The very fact celtic were set up as more of a business then Hibernian says it all, its always been about the money for them. Not the fans at the time. Not the people living bellow poverty. They're the most capitalist club in the uk.

[James Stephen]

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Celtic use their "irishness' as a marketing tool, it has nothing to do with charity.

Hibs don't use their "irishness" to do anything of the sort. But still remember our Irish and charity values.

Because celtic use this tactic as a way to get income from people with Irish heritage, the label is used by celtic. And celtic basically claim it as their own, plus they'll love the fact they can get a reaction out of sevco.

The very fact celtic were set up as more of a business then Hibernian says it all, its always been about the money for them. Not the fans at the time. Not the people living bellow poverty. They're the most capitalist club in the uk.

Hibs try and use the Leith thing as marketing tool, and Hearts use the heart and soul of edinburgh as a marketing tool.

Its no different, they are just much more successful at doing it.

[Pagan Hibernia]

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Celtic use their "irishness' as a marketing tool, it has nothing to do with charity.

Hibs don't use their "irishness" to do anything of the sort. But still remember our Irish and charity values.

Because celtic use this tactic as a way to get income from people with Irish heritage, the label is used by celtic. And celtic basically claim it as their own, plus they'll love the fact they can get a reaction out of sevco.

The very fact celtic were set up as more of a business then Hibernian says it all, its always been about the money for them. Not the fans at the time. Not the people living bellow poverty. They're the most capitalist club in the uk.

more capitalist than the likes of Manchester United?

[Greencore]

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more capitalist than the likes of Manchester United?

Size wise no. Tactic wise to gain fans? Possibly?

[Kato]

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It was Harry Swan i think, who got rid of the harp, changed the strips and would have gone further - he wanted go the whole hog and change Hibs shirts to Arsenal shirts, not just the white sleeves but the whole red body too, according to one of Mackays Hibs history books.

I suspect the famous five, and a young male population flush with British nationalism post ww2 brought a lot of non traditional glory hunting Hibs supporters, along with slum clearances breaking up the Hibs communities around the same time.

These new fans will have brought Scotlands own, deeply ingrained anti Irish / anti Catholic attitudes to the newly sanitised Hibs of Swan.

Celtic winning European Cup in 67 no doubt cemented the migration of many Hibernian supporters to Celtic who offered glory and a sense of identity to them.

In effect, Swan sold out some of what made Hibs, Hibs, to chase commercial success and attract huge crowds. Its inevitable the vast majority of those new fans would be hostile to catholicism, because Scottish society was at large. And the debate has raged among Hibs fans ever since.

Its a fascinating history, and does i think lead to an indirect effect on the pitch.

Hearts for example have no such debates about their identity, irs as rock solid today as it was in 1874, they are Edinburgh's club, and their single minded aim is to be that on the pitch. And they often do, as their record suggests. There is no pretension to a certain style or marketed version of identity on the pitch that Hibs have, its about winning, and being Edinburghs top dog.

I think one ofnthe amazing things about clubs, is how their identities manifest on the pitch, despite players, managers etc changing. Their supports, imo, pass them on and carry them on.

This again.

The first two things Harry Swan did was brought in a Catholic Monsignor as club chaplin and had green goal nets installed. The Harp on the outside of the ground was removed as that part of the ground was being demolished 20 years into Swan's tenure. Funnily we are still called Hibernian and still play in green and white, things Harry Swan had 25 years to change but didn't.

Hearts are barry, says you over and over.

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[Kato]

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Celtic use their "irishness' as a marketing tool, it has nothing to do with charity.

Hibs don't use their "irishness" to do anything of the sort. But still remember our Irish and charity values.

Because celtic use this tactic as a way to get income from people with Irish heritage, the label is used by celtic. And celtic basically claim it as their own, plus they'll love the fact they can get a reaction out of sevco.

The very fact celtic were set up as more of a business then Hibernian says it all, its always been about the money for them. Not the fans at the time. Not the people living bellow poverty. They're the most capitalist club in the uk.

Celtic fans don't seem all that bothered about Irishness, unless it has to do with the IRA.

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[James Stephen]

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This again.

The first two things Harry Swan did was brought in a Catholic Monsignor as club chaplin and had green goal nets installed. The Harp on the outside of the ground was removed as that part of the ground was being demolished 20 years into Swan's tenure. Funnily we are still called Hibernian and still play in green and white, things Harry Swan had 25 years to change but didn't.

Hearts are barry, says you over and over.

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So Swan didnt get rid of the harp? So what happened to it?

And he did try and change the colours, to red, when he changed the strip. And of course got rid of the hitherto sacred green jerseys, by introducing white.

Im not saying Swan was anti Catholic, i think thats mad. But he undoubtedly sold out history and tradition to appeal to a wider fan base. The post war boom in crowds and the famous five made it look wildly successful.

Swan made a calculated business decision, to market Hibs to a wider fan base, imo. Thats why the harp was replaced. I mean, it could barely be more obvious, he tried to replace the harp with a thistle. Almost literally saying, we arent irish, we are Scottish to the wider world.

[DIXIHIBS]

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This again.

The first two things Harry Swan did was brought in a Catholic Monsignor as club chaplin and had green goal nets installed. The Harp on the outside of the ground was removed as that part of the ground was being demolished 20 years into Swan's tenure. Funnily we are still called Hibernian and still play in green and white, things Harry Swan had 25 years to change but didn't.

Hearts are barry, says you over and over.

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Aye he's a bit obvious👍

[Kato]

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So Swan didnt get rid of the harp? So what happened to it?

And he did try and change the colours, to red, when he changed the strip. And of course got rid of the hitherto sacred green jerseys, by introducing white.

Im not saying Swan was anti Catholic, i think thats mad. But he undoubtedly sold out history and tradition to appeal to a wider fan base. The post war boom in crowds and the famous five made it look wildly successful.

Swan made a calculated business decision, to market Hibs to a wider fan base, imo. Thats why the harp was replaced. I mean, it could barely be more obvious, he tried to replace the harp with a thistle. Almost literally saying, we arent irish, we are Scottish to the wider world.

What was the harp replaced with. We had played for quite a few years before Swan without a badge on the strips. What replaced it? We had played in white jerseys before we had green jerseys so an argument could be made that he was embracing tradition by having green and white.

Do you have sources for all this? Celtic message boards don't count.



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[Bridge hibs]

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Aye he's a bit obvious👍

Bit strange if your calling the guy a jambo when he is a hibs supporter and has written a hibs book 🙄

[Kato]

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Bit strange if your calling the guy a jambo when he is a hibs supporter and has written a hibs book

His views on Hearts don't stack up. If their identity is merely that of "Edinburgh's premier club" where does the thick seam of anti-catholicism come from and why doesn't he address that?

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[DIXIHIBS]

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Bit strange if your calling the guy a jambo when he is a hibs supporter and has written a hibs book 🙄

No idea if he is a jambo or not but constantly talks up hertz and talks down hibs on here. Strange outlook for a hibs fan imho.

[Kato]

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No idea if he is a jambo or not but constantly talks up hertz and talks down hibs on here. Strange outlook for a hibs fan imho.

That's where I'm at. Don't care what team he supports.

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[Bridge hibs]

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No idea if he is a jambo or not but constantly talks up hertz and talks down hibs on here. Strange outlook for a hibs fan imho.

Oh ffs, there are plenty hibs fans that do that regularly on here, not just him 🤣

[Kato]

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Oh ffs, there are plenty hibs fans that do that regularly on here, not just him

They get pulled up too.

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[DIXIHIBS]

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Oh ffs, there are plenty hibs fans that do that regularly on here, not just him 🤣

Thats all right then👍

[CentreLine]

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It's not just our club who aren't really bothered, it's our fans too by all accounts.

Other than this thread, not a peep about St Patrick's day!

On a similar note, as a reminder, it's Mother's Day tomorrow :)

Ha! So it turns out Mothers Day was actually a religious celebration and nothing to do with yer actual mother.
500 years ago and more, people would walk miles to attend the (mother) church where they were baptised and reacquaint themselves with the people in the place of their birth.
When it went off to America in the 18th century it came back as another, commercially driven, celebration of our mothers. Not a bad thing but definitely interesting, for me at least.

[James Stephen]

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What was the harp replaced with. We had played for quite a few years before Swan without a badge on the strips. What replaced it? We had played in white jerseys before we had green jerseys so an argument could be made that he was embracing tradition by having green and white.

Do you have sources for all this? Celtic message boards don't count.



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The red colour change is from one of Mackays Hibs books (cant recall which one, apologies). The harp was quietly removed, and replaced with firstly some random thistle, and then by the crown and ball badge.

Hibs were literally known for decades as the green jerseys. It was Swan who introduced the white.

If you dont think Swan got rid of the harp, what do you think happened, and why do you think it was removed and replaced?