Football tactics

How many fans genuinely understand football tactics? Do you need to be a qualified coach or an ex-player to offer expert opinion on how a team has been set up to play?

I've been thinking about this since the cup final, after which the general consensus among the fans on this forum seemed to be that Jack Ross adopted the same tactics which had failed on three previous occasions against St Johnstone. But is that REALLY what he did? Did he GENUINELY say to his players something along the lines of 'same again lads, I'm pretty sure it will work this time'? What would that say about his abilities as a coach?

Unless Ross were to come out and explain his tactics for the game then I guess we'll never really know, but personally I find it hard to believe an obviously intelligent guy who is clearly a keen student of the game would adopt such an approach. Was there instead an attempt made to deploy a different set of tactics which we, as fans, simply failed to pick up on largely due to the fact they didn't work?

I do sometimes wonder if it's easy for fans/pundits to be wise after the event when it comes to tactics. It's easy to throw around phrases like 'we got our tactics spot on' or 'our tactics were a disaster' after a game, but how many of us are truly capable of casting an expert eye over a game and providing an accurate analysis of the run of play?

Well, there’s a few people on Hibs.net who remind us all regularly that they basically haven’t got a clue. :wink:

On the other hand, there are several here and elsewhere who clearly know their stuff.

Football is a team game, 11 v 11. Tactics is about how those players match up, how they find space or find opponents. There is no inherently correct or incorrect team shape, because it is as much about reacting to your opponent as imposing your advantages.

But the game is also about the individual abilities and qualities of those players, the psychology of each individual and the group.

Jack went with pretty much the same plan and got the same result. We didn’t lose the final because of an individual mistake, a wrong call or a wondrous bit of skill by our opponents.

In summary, I think much of the criticism is valid.

Tactics is something I have a real interest in. I find it fascinating and I think Scottish football shows more than other leagues that if you have a real game plan and structure you will do well.

We’ve been a lot better and solid than previous seasons and it’s no coincidence that it’s been out highest finish in 15 years. St Johnstone are the same, they were hopeless at the beginning and through tactics and a way that suits them completely changed their fortunes and won them 2 cups.

I enjoy seeing what we do during games, how it changes us and what sort of effect it has.

I'm not sure he done exactly the same thing, but I also don't think he done anywhere near enough to trouble them. We all knew exactly how it would go. It was very predictable and thats on him. He needs to make us unpredictable, make the opposition work for it.

Fine margins !

Close thread

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Originally Posted by He's here!

How many fans genuinely understand football tactics? Do you need to be a qualified coach or an ex-player to offer expert opinion on how a team has been set up to play?

I've been thinking about this since the cup final, after which the general consensus among the fans on this forum seemed to be that Jack Ross adopted the same tactics which had failed on three previous occasions against St Johnstone. But is that REALLY what he did? Did he GENUINELY say to his players something along the lines of 'same again lads, I'm pretty sure it will work this time'? What would that say about his abilities as a coach?

Unless Ross were to come out and explain his tactics for the game then I guess we'll never really know, but personally I find it hard to believe an obviously intelligent guy who is clearly a keen student of the game would adopt such an approach. Was there instead an attempt made to deploy a different set of tactics which we, as fans, simply failed to pick up on largely due to the fact they didn't work?

I do sometimes wonder if it's easy for fans/pundits to be wise after the event when it comes to tactics. It's easy to throw around phrases like 'we got our tactics spot on' or 'our tactics were a disaster' after a game, but how many of us are truly capable of casting an expert eye over a game and providing an accurate analysis of the run of play?

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Our players are better than St Johnstone's players imo. We went into the final with better last six form than St Johnstone even taking into account they beat us in one of those games. The pitch was in great nick and the weather was good for playing football. The goal was no fluke and they had the best opportunities to score apart from the goal. To me that leaves Tactics and player motivation. Ross has a massive part to play in both of those and his opposite number yet again got the better of him. The players do need to shoulder some of the motivational burden as we simply never looked up for the game with 50/50s only going one way and 2nd balls constantly being won by Saints through either a far better shape or simply more tuned in players. It was up there with one of the worst displays in my 40 odd years watching Hibs. Not because we got beat but because we simply never looked like we wanted to win. Even in that 2012 final the team actually came back into the game before a terrible individual error and some shocking refereeing made us capitulate. I can't point to anything in the final that says we were unlucky or deserved more. We simply were beaten through lack of desire and ill thought through tactics by a team that we dwarf in terms of financial resource and facilities.

[QUOTE=He's here!;6585663]How many fans genuinely understand football tactics? Do you need to be a qualified coach or an ex-player to offer expert opinion on how a team has been set up to play?

I've been thinking about this since the cup final, after which the general consensus among the fans on this forum seemed to be that Jack Ross adopted the same tactics which had failed on three previous occasions against St Johnstone. But is that REALLY what he did? Did he GENUINELY say to his players something along the lines of 'same again lads, I'm pretty sure it will work this time'? What would that say about his abilities as a coach?

Unless Ross were to come out and explain his tactics for the game then I guess we'll never really know, but personally I find it hard to believe an obviously intelligent guy who is clearly a keen student of the game would adopt such an approach. Was there instead an attempt made to deploy a different set of tactics which we, as fans, simply failed to pick up on largely due to the fact they didn't work?

I do sometimes wonder if it's easy for fans/pundits to be wise after the event when it comes to tactics. It's easy to throw around phrases like 'we got our tactics spot on' or 'our tactics were a disaster' after a game, but how many of us are truly capable of casting an expert eye over a game and providing an accurate analysis of the run of play? [/vQUOTE]

Bro what...

You should know by now not to ask questions.

Your role is to consume soccer product and pay for your Vrigin/O2 subscription, season ticket, sponsoring the girls team. So suck it up.

If you don’t like it tough enjoy Bovril with your pint and Pie.

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Originally Posted by Max_Shah

Bro what...

You should know by now not to ask questions.

Your role is to consume soccer product and pay for your Vrigin/O2 subscription, season ticket, sponsoring the girls team. So suck it up.

If you don’t like it tough enjoy Bovril with your pint and Pie.

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:confused:

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Bro what...

You should know by now not to ask questions.

Your role is to consume soccer product and pay for your Vrigin/O2 subscription, season ticket, sponsoring the girls team. So suck it up.

If you don’t like it tough enjoy Bovril with your pint and Pie.

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😀😀😀😀😀😀

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Originally Posted by BILLYHIBS

Fine margins !

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I know you and others are only quoting those two words in jest. But I actually agree with what someone said previously - if Jackson Irvine’s shot slides under the keeper, I do believe we would have seen the game out fairly comfortably. Or at least there’s every chance we would have.

I’m not for a second saying that excuses what was a very poor performance, but I also get the ‘fine margins’ thing. Finals are about getting over the line, and if we had there wouldn’t have been any question about JR getting his tactics wrong and we wouldn’t be saying he was lucky etc. It’s how football goes sometimes.

In short - I take more issue with the players’ lack of urgency and apparent shortage of interest, than any of Jack Ross’ tactical decisions. That double save from Macey should have been a lift and a lifeline for us to really go at them as we were right back in the cup at that point. For us to be genuinely questioning if the players were that bothered about the final is sickening.

I’m not saying the manager is blameless, but his tactics didn’t lose us the game in my opinion.

And to answer the OP, more fans pretend to know what they’re talking about tactics wise than actually do understand the game. You only have to listen to people around you at a game for five minutes, or read any match day thread on here.

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Originally Posted by WeeRussell

I know you and others are only quoting those two words in jest. But I actually agree with what someone said previously - if Jackson Irvine’s shot slides under the keeper, I do believe we would have seen the game out fairly comfortably. Or at least there’s every chance we would have.

I’m not for a second saying that excuses what was a very poor performance, but I also get the ‘fine margins’ thing. Finals are about getting over the line, and if we had there wouldn’t have been any question about JR getting his tactics wrong and we wouldn’t be saying he was lucky etc. It’s how football goes sometimes.

In short - I take more issue with the players’ lack of urgency and apparent shortage of interest, than any of Jack Ross’ tactical decisions. That double save from Macey should have been a lift and a lifeline for us to really go at them as we were right back in the cup at that point. For us to be genuinely questioning if the players were that bothered about the final is sickening.

I’m not saying the manager is blameless, but his tactics didn’t lose us the game in my opinion.

And to answer the OP, more fans pretend to know what they’re talking about tactics wise than actually do understand the game. You only have to listen to people around you at a game for five minutes, or read any match day thread on here.

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My post was not intended to be a joke more a direct reference to JR’s post match interview hence no smiley face :greengrin

Tactics eh? I used to like the orange and lime double pack.

In the Cup final, we should've replicated our first half hour in the LC semi. I think the end result to that game at Hampden dictated how we approached the SC final. We tried to ease our way in to the game and play tight. We'd have been better trying to force things. One scenario we had to avoid was St. Johnstone taking the lead and having something to protect..we paid the price and ran out of ideas..we tried hard but to little/no effect..over to you JR..

I'm sure many of you have been watching home games on Hibs tv and for the most part you will have seen JR's tactics or lack of them ? It would seem that if plan A does not work we are stuffed, more often than not we got a wee cushion of a goal or two then the opposition sussed us out and we ended up playing hoofball ! Once the fans are back and they see this in the flesh then his coat will be on the proverbial shoogly peg.

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Originally Posted by greenpaper55

I'm sure many of you have been watching home games on Hibs tv and for the most part you will have seen JR's tactics or lack of them ? It would seem that if plan A does not work we are stuffed, more often than not we got a wee cushion of a goal or two then the opposition sussed us out and we ended up playing hoofball ! Once the fans are back and they see this in the flesh then his coat will be on the proverbial shoogly peg.

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For the most part I seen him guide us to a comfortable third place finish as well as two cup runs. His coat will be on nae peg anytime soon judged on this past season.

Very rarely watch the ball during games I’m at (don’t have that luxury on TV) and I’m much more interested in the movement of individual players within respective units on the park. IMO we’ve had some fantastic players who were under appreciated and some loved players who were hopeless at really important aspects of the game. I played to a relatively decent level when I was younger and my interest in the game has always been more to do with tactics, movement, decision-making and statistics/data than what the score is. Although the score in our last game surely tested my patience!!!

If anyone is looking to read up on that side of the game then “Inverting The Pyramid” by Jonathan Wilson is a really good read.

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Originally Posted by CJHibby

In the Cup final, we should've replicated our first half hour in the LC semi. I think the end result to that game at Hampden dictated how we approached the SC final. We tried to ease our way in to the game and play tight. We'd have been better trying to force things. One scenario we had to avoid was St. Johnstone taking the lead and having something to protect..we paid the price and ran out of ideas..we tried hard but to little/no effect..over to you JR..

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that was my reading of it. the other risk with this approach was it looked like we weren't bothered at the start of the game, which pissed off a lot of fans no end.

this said, i have absolutely no clue about tactics. sometimes there's the odd game where it's obvious (or seems obvious) what needs to change, or when something isn't working, but the extent of my expertise comes from watching hibs and playing fifa, so...:rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by The_Exile

Very rarely watch the ball during games I’m at (don’t have that luxury on TV) and I’m much more interested in the movement of individual players within respective units on the park. IMO we’ve had some fantastic players who were under appreciated and some loved players who were hopeless at really important aspects of the game. I played to a relatively decent level when I was younger and my interest in the game has always been more to do with tactics, movement, decision-making and statistics/data than what the score is. Although the score in our last game surely tested my patience!!!

If anyone is looking to read up on that side of the game then “Inverting The Pyramid” by Jonathan Wilson is a really good read.

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I've missed out all theses years, all I ever watch when the ball is in play is the ball.

My eye is drawn to the odd player making a run or whatever but invariably all I watch is the ball lol.

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Originally Posted by The_Exile

Very rarely watch the ball during games I’m at (don’t have that luxury on TV) and I’m much more interested in the movement of individual players within respective units on the park. IMO we’ve had some fantastic players who were under appreciated and some loved players who were hopeless at really important aspects of the game. I played to a relatively decent level when I was younger and my interest in the game has always been more to do with tactics, movement, decision-making and statistics/data than what the score is. Although the score in our last game surely tested my patience!!!

If anyone is looking to read up on that side of the game then “Inverting The Pyramid” by Jonathan Wilson is a really good read.

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A good while back, probably in the 80s, there was a Scottish football magazine called The Punter. As I recall it was quite a dry read and included a series of tactical articles by a guy called Charles Reep. I remember thinking at the time that it was quite an interesting idea to educate readers about that side of the game but either I was too young to appreciate them or the articles were simply too long and dull. I think the consensus was that most fans only really care about seeing their team put the ball in the back of the net rather than picking their way through a dissertation-style analysis of how the ball got there.

Tactics are only as good as the players who utilise them, and our players to a man just did not turn up. Now i'm 100% sure they were sent out with good and informative information on how to win the game.

First off you need 100% effort, did we really see that, and each player will have his individual battle with his opposition player, did we see any of ours win that battle, no is the answer.

So basically tactics only really work if the players implement them, our players were miles short in every department that day, and i'm not convinced we'd have won if Klopp or Ferguson were in charge, as the players never turned up, froze bottled it whatever, they just never turned up to that match.

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Originally Posted by blackpoolhibs

Tactics are only as good as the players who utilise them, and our players to a man just did not turn up. Now i'm 100% sure they were sent out with good and informative information on how to win the game.

First off you need 100% effort, did we really see that, and each player will have his individual battle with his opposition player, did we see any of ours win that battle, no is the answer.

So basically tactics only really work if the players implement them, our players were miles short in every department that day, and i'm not convinced we'd have won if Klopp or Ferguson were in charge, as the players never turned up, froze bottled it whatever, they just never turned up to that match.

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Pretty much spot on, old saying you can only pee with the cock you have. Scotland played a 451/4231 last night and it works due the players available. Hibs can't play that because we lack pace on both sides and an energetic midfield, nor can we play 433 as Doidge isn't mobile enough, until we get the players needed we just have to make do.

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Originally Posted by J-C

Pretty much spot on, old saying you can only pee with the cock you have. Scotland played a 451/4231 last night and it works due the players available. Hibs can't play that because we lack pace on both sides and an energetic midfield, nor can we play 433 as Doidge isn't mobile enough, until we get the players needed we just have to make do.

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:agree:

I was just contemplating if that very phrase would get past the swear filter. :greengrin

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Originally Posted by blackpoolhibs

Tactics are only as good as the players who utilise them, and our players to a man just did not turn up. Now i'm 100% sure they were sent out with good and informative information on how to win the game.

First off you need 100% effort, did we really see that, and each player will have his individual battle with his opposition player, did we see any of ours win that battle, no is the answer.

So basically tactics only really work if the players implement them, our players were miles short in every department that day, and i'm not convinced we'd have won if Klopp or Ferguson were in charge, as the players never turned up, froze bottled it whatever, they just never turned up to that match.

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I agree to an extent but one of my bug bears is that we seem to leave certain areas of the pitch devoid of our players. Lob the ball up to Doidge but don't have a midfielder 10-15 yards behind him to pick up a loose header from the defender. Throw in a corner but don't have a couple of men on the edge of the box hoping for the chance of a shot from a poor clearance or to stop a counter. There are areas of Hibs game plan that have been very ineffective over weeks or even months up to the cup final. We simply don't seem to want to address them. In terms of attacking tactics our plan is to have no plan and rely on a bit of magic from Boyle or maybe Murphy. Look at Nisbets goal last night. There was a clear plan to use Armstrong, Tierney and Robertson to attack and overlap on the left while always keeping one back for cover. It worked lots of times during the game and resulted in one fantastically crafted goal. I see none of that with Hibs.

I think we lacked intent and purpose from the off. It was too easy for St. Johnstone and emboldened them. Once they scored, we huffed and puffed but never ever looked like coming back. Well done KN last night, pity he was so badly off it in the Cup final (along with others). It still feels sore losing that game with our chances of success up ahead less likely..😞

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Originally Posted by wookie70

Our players are better than St Johnstone's players imo. We went into the final with better last six form than St Johnstone even taking into account they beat us in one of those games. The pitch was in great nick and the weather was good for playing football. The goal was no fluke and they had the best opportunities to score apart from the goal. To me that leaves Tactics and player motivation. Ross has a massive part to play in both of those and his opposite number yet again got the better of him. The players do need to shoulder some of the motivational burden as we simply never looked up for the game with 50/50s only going one way and 2nd balls constantly being won by Saints through either a far better shape or simply more tuned in players. It was up there with one of the worst displays in my 40 odd years watching Hibs. Not because we got beat but because we simply never looked like we wanted to win. Even in that 2012 final the team actually came back into the game before a terrible individual error and some shocking refereeing made us capitulate. I can't point to anything in the final that says we were unlucky or deserved more. We simply were beaten through lack of desire and ill thought through tactics by a team that we dwarf in terms of financial resource and facilities.

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Excellent summary in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by greenpaper55

I'm sure many of you have been watching home games on Hibs tv and for the most part you will have seen JR's tactics or lack of them ? It would seem that if plan A does not work we are stuffed, more often than not we got a wee cushion of a goal or two then the opposition sussed us out and we ended up playing hoofball ! Once the fans are back and they see this in the flesh then his coat will be on the proverbial shoogly peg.

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:greengrin:greengrin

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Originally Posted by J-C

Pretty much spot on, old saying you can only pee with the cock you have. Scotland played a 451/4231 last night and it works due the players available. Hibs can't play that because we lack pace on both sides and an energetic midfield, nor can we play 433 as Doidge isn't mobile enough, until we get the players needed we just have to make do.

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Scotland played a 3-5-2 last night.

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Originally Posted by blackpoolhibs

Tactics are only as good as the players who utilise them, and our players to a man just did not turn up. Now i'm 100% sure they were sent out with good and informative information on how to win the game.

First off you need 100% effort, did we really see that, and each player will have his individual battle with his opposition player, did we see any of ours win that battle, no is the answer.

So basically tactics only really work if the players implement them, our players were miles short in every department that day, and i'm not convinced we'd have won if Klopp or Ferguson were in charge, as the players never turned up, froze bottled it whatever, they just never turned up to that match.

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Tactics are only part of the puzzle. Man management is the other.

A manager has to get the best out of the resources available to him. A tactical plan should accentuate our team’s strengths and try to exploit the weaknesses of the opposition.

We’ve all seen games where a team doesn’t seem to know what they are doing, or what they are doing isn’t working, and heads drop as a result.

It’s a cop out IMO to say our players didn’t try hard enough and that’s why we lost. Ultimately, it’s Jack’s responsibility to get a tune out of them, and he has to shoulder some of the blame.

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Originally Posted by Tyler Durden

Scotland played a 3-5-2 last night.

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thats what i thought too..

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Originally Posted by jacomo

Tactics are only part of the puzzle. Man management is the other.

A manager has to get the best out of the resources available to him. A tactical plan should accentuate our team’s strengths and try to exploit the weaknesses of the opposition.

We’ve all seen games where a team doesn’t seem to know what they are doing, or what they are doing isn’t working, and heads drop as a result.

It’s a cop out IMO to say our players didn’t try hard enough and that’s why we lost. Ultimately, it’s Jack’s responsibility to get a tune out of them, and he has to shoulder some of the blame.

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Im sure jack does share part of the blame....but i didnt see our players bursting a gut in the cup final. That says more about the players than the manager for me.

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Originally Posted by J-C

Pretty much spot on, old saying you can only pee with the cock you have. Scotland played a 451/4231 last night and it works due the players available. Hibs can't play that because we lack pace on both sides and an energetic midfield, nor can we play 433 as Doidge isn't mobile enough, until we get the players needed we just have to make do.

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Hendry , Copper , Teirney was our back 3.

Forrect and Robertson the wide players.

Christie was up top with Dykes.

Whatever the tactics or not..on Cup Final Day, we got bossed. St. Johnstone played exactly as everyone knew they would play so it was folly of players and manager in how ineffective we were. Aberdeen have played like that for years, even Hearts years back.

My biggest gripe was Hibs not busting a gut early doors to get in front and taking it from there. Our reticence was probably borne out of fear, respect(too much) and the idea we could play our way into the game. Unfortunately, playing so pragmatically meant trying to overcome a team who when a goal in front are damned hard to beat. We tried but alas were not good enough. J Ross praised their endeavour after the game which suggests to me he set them out to play that way. 😞

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Originally Posted by CJHibby

Whatever the tactics or not..on Cup Final Day, we got bossed. St. Johnstone played exactly as everyone knew they would play so it was folly of players and manager in how ineffective we were. Aberdeen have played like that for years, even Hearts years back.

My biggest gripe was Hibs not busting a gut early doors to get in front and taking it from there. Our reticence was probably borne out of fear, respect(too much) and the idea we could play our way into the game. Unfortunately, playing so pragmatically meant trying to overcome a team who when a goal in front are damned hard to beat. We tried but alas were not good enough. J Ross praised their endeavour after the game which suggests to me he set them out to play that way. 😞

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I think we tried to play our own game and St Johnstone sussed it yet again. Said before the game that the first goal was absolutely crucial as it so often is in SC finals and that turned out to be the case. I think if we'd scored first then we'd have gone on to win with the confidence that brings. All hypothetical now i guess.

Players should be able to adapt to different formations it should be worked on in training. You also need leaders on the park. My late father had a dislike of what he called Chuckle Brothers football (to me to you). The game is about getting the ball into the box to your player what is wrong with playing a long ball game. I have watched a lot of football in lockdown and the number of games where teams have not had a shot on target in 45 mins of football is alarming. I have to admit some of our games last season have not been that great to watch.
Ways of playing the game seems to change when the next team that comes along and are successful with the way they play. Barcelona was an example with their quick passing and movement style. Everyone copies that way of playing then we get the counter to that of the high press.
Football needs to remember it is an entertainment industry as well.

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Originally Posted by Brightside

Im sure jack does share part of the blame....but i didnt see our players bursting a gut in the cup final. That says more about the players than the manager for me.

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Fair point, but he signed half of that team. Did he sign the wrong “type” ?

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Originally Posted by Tyler Durden

Scotland played a 3-5-2 last night.

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You sure? I thought Dykes was up top on his own, seemed that way, I know Robertson and Tierney usually play 352 together but it never looked like that, I stand corrected.:aok: Who was Dykes partner?

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Originally Posted by J-C

You sure? I thought Dykes was up top on his own, seemed that way, I know Robertson and Tierney usually play 352 together but it never looked like that, I stand corrected.:aok: Who was Dykes partner?

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Christie was up front with Dykes to start with.

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Originally Posted by jacomo

Tactics are only part of the puzzle. Man management is the other.

A manager has to get the best out of the resources available to him. A tactical plan should accentuate our team’s strengths and try to exploit the weaknesses of the opposition.

We’ve all seen games where a team doesn’t seem to know what they are doing, or what they are doing isn’t working, and heads drop as a result.

It’s a cop out IMO to say our players didn’t try hard enough and that’s why we lost. Ultimately, it’s Jack’s responsibility to get a tune out of them, and he has to shoulder some of the blame.

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Of course the manager is the man who takes the brunt of the anger, because he's the one who sends them out to play under his instructions.

Although we have seen our players play well for most of the season, they have been third best over the season, but we do have a habit of throwing in an awful performance, but it is his first full season as manager, and i fully expect him to build a better stronger more attractive side the longer he is at the club.

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Originally Posted by jeffers

Fair point, but he signed half of that team. Did he sign the wrong “type” ?

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No - we just didn't perform on the day. We have seen it on a few occasions over the season. But overall the squad has performed well. On about 6 occasions we were pish.

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Originally Posted by Brightside

No - we just didn't perform on the day. We have seen it on a few occasions over the season. But overall the squad has performed well. On about 6 occasions we were pish.

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Not performing happens, it looked more than that to me.

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Originally Posted by jeffers

Not performing happens, it looked more than that to me.

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What did it look like to you ?

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Originally Posted by bigwheel

What did it look like to you ?

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Some seemed to chuck the towel in and not try and make something happen. Similar to the second half v Saints in the semi final. Inexplicable lack of desire in such a big game when only a goal behind. Kerr made the comment after the game they wanted it more he was absolutely right. Lost every one on one on the pitch.

My view on tactics is simple

* Ross was up against a much less experienced manager

* We had, man for man, the better players.

St Johnstone took that with a squad that laboured in the first part of the season and found the set up to win

Hibs on the other hand blew 3 semis / finals against weaker teams

So our tactics in key games are, to me, fairly obviously flawed OR the team psychology sucks.