Apparently Jim Goodwin just said at the St Mirren AGM on zoom tonight that Hibs are closing the academy at East Mains and laying off a lot of young players. The guy who told me is reliable but if it is the case I’m astonished Goodwin has heard this.
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Apparently Jim Goodwin just said at the St Mirren AGM on zoom tonight that Hibs are closing the academy at East Mains and laying off a lot of young players. The guy who told me is reliable but if it is the case I’m astonished Goodwin has heard this.
P!$# of the first order.
I kind of thought so too. But it was definitely mentioned at the meeting, apparently 2-3 times by JG. Very strange.Quote:
Originally Posted by hibbyfraelibby
Maybe he means we aren't in for any of his players this window as we pretty much use St. Mirren as an extension of our academy :wink:Quote:
Originally Posted by Dashing Bob S
I've no idea if what Goodwin says is true.
It does seem highly probable that Hibs will be looking at further ways to cut costs in the coming months though. We are going to go a whole season without a single walk up fan, the PPV income won't touch the sides of that shortfall. The people at the club are also far from stupid. The ST campaign would normally be launching in the next 6-8 weeks and they will know sales will be down at least until people have some clarity on whether they will be seeing any live football next season. Like any business Hibs will be seeing that as customers personal finances take a hit so does their ability to spend money or make quick financial decisions.
Hibs focus will be on the 1st team. That is what drives income for the club, both from fans and from commercial partnerships. The sad fact of the matter is almost nothing else is sacred.
Probably thinks they'll have a better chance against St Johnstone than Hibs in the final. Stirring the pot.
St Mirren ARE our academy.
If, and it’s a very big if, it’s surely a mothballing situation until things stabilise again?
If true I think it’s sad that (unless those already aware of the situation have been told) folks may find out through a rival teams manager chatting on an AGM Zoom call. Just how should he know about our affairs (unless of course he’s been approached by representatives perhaps?)
Won’t be popular but I think it makes sense to shut it down.
In every youth team the chances of anyone making the breakthrough are so slim, this can mean keeping 8 or 9 players on so the 2 or 3 we think can make it have team mates to play with. On top of that the landscape of youth football has changed and if we do bring through a particularly special player the bigger clubs can just take them for a relatively small amount of money.
I would do away with the academy and look to pick up good 17 and 18 year olds released by the biggest clubs.
I think that’s what Brentford did and to me it makes complete sense.
Nothing on the St Mirren AGM thread yet
https://www.blackandwhitearmy.com/fo...ge/3/#comments
Let's be honest, our academy has hardly been a rip roaring success. Might be a good time to rethink everything and perhaps remodel our youth system, if what has been said is true.
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This is Brentfords modelQuote:
Originally Posted by bingo70
https://www.theguardian.com/football/2017/apr/05/brentford-ditched-their-academy-premier-league-outcasts
To be honest I’m too lazy to read that but I remember watching a decent documentary about it on BT Sport.Quote:
Originally Posted by 04Sauzee
The guy from Brentford spoke a lot of sense on it.
Load of sh*te I reckon. He will be having a sly dig at Hibs and Jack Ross for taking a few of his players and staff.
Completely agree with this.Quote:
Originally Posted by bingo70
I’ve said before that the youth academy is in the main a waste of money.
I’d rather we went round poaching the best youngsters from other clubs like we did with John McGinn and more recently Nisbet and Magennis.
Could be Ron’s way of thinking too?
He’s maybe just taking what was in the red tops at the start of lockdown as gospel?Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeyS
Need to be careful what people think is the academy. The senior academy is pretty much shut anyway. Players go out on loan. There hasn’t been any games for kids for ages. They are all “home training”. The community angle will keep going as it brings in plenty money. Not sure if longer term there is much point running the boys “pro youth” academy.
Personally youths are better sticking to youth clubs then making the move at 16. At that point Hibs can put those players out to our linked lower league clubs.
We did it at the last lockdown but re opened it when things stabilised, I'd assume due to the academy not being deemed elite athletes it'll be closed until we come out of tier 4.
It's easy to become wedded to an idea so much that you can't see past it.Quote:
Originally Posted by WhileTheChief..
Maybe Ron has come in and asked the pertinent questions - "we spend how much...and it raises how much back, exactly?", and the answer was one that led us in this direction?
Ron didn't stand at Easter Road in the early 90s though. We've managed to build the infrastructure we have by bringing through players and selling them for profit since then.
It works for some clubs, not for others. And whilst we might not have sold anyone for big bucks recently, we've got a good few first team games out of Hanlon and Stevenson, who we might have paid a few transfer fees for over the years had we not had those players.
It’s been closed for ages tbf. Open for a few weeks then locked down again. Same as every other club.Quote:
Originally Posted by J-C
https://twitter.com/gmathie82/status...369483264?s=21
Graham Mathie tweeting about the Academy an hour ago. If news was imminent about it closing I doubt he’d be talking about rolling out some initiative in the future.
One of the things I always think you have to consider about an academy or youth system, particularly at the older age groups, is you are essentially carrying a sqaud of 16-18 players to facilitate the 2 or 3 who have a realistic chance of making it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Smartie
Hibs know by the age of 16 or 17 who is likely to make it here. You'll get the odd late developer but for the most part the club have an idea. It's just common sense that every player at every age group isn't realistically going to be a 1st team player, that would require us to ship out an entire 1st team squad every other season.
I'm not proposing we rip up the entire system but I think it's healthy to revisit the way things are done regularly and not just stick with something because 'that's how we have always done it' or 'that's how everyone else does it too'. Is there merit in only progressing 6 or 7 high quality players above under 17 level and using the link up with Stenhousemuir to develop them rather than running a development side? Is there merit in leaving boys with the juvenile sides longer but working with them to ensure they undertake the strength and conditioning work that can sometimes be lacking when you take a player late? Is there merit in following the Brentford model?
The current situation is probably as good a chance as any to sit down and really decide if what we are currently doing is both working and value for money. If it is then great, if not then change it.
I don’t disagree with any of that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Smartie
We will of had hundreds of lads through the academy over the years and a only handful will have contributed to us in a meaningful way though.
Most we will never have heard of, some will make a go of it at lower league clubs and the majority will be out of the game by the time they’re out of their teens I’d imagine.
Not knocking the club here btw, it’s the way with most clubs probably.
I just think it’s maybe worth taking a different approach and maybe focus on those from ages 17/18 up only.
There will be people that work in youth football that know more about it than me but worth a thought at least?
Graham Mathie also responded to a tweet asking about the closure of the academy and tweeted the following...Quote:
Originally Posted by bingo70
Q.
Graeme.. allegedly Jim Goodwin has made comments tonight about Hibs closing the academy. A simple yes or no to put our minds at ease.. thanks.
A.
Haven’t seen any comments but no, that’s not accurate. 👍
I’m a wee bit behind the times
Have the kit guy and his Mrs gone ?
Seems utterly bizarre Goodwin would make this statement especially if proven to be wrong
Perhaps on the basis that Mathie has confirmed its not true the thread should be binned now?
I would agree. It seems unsubstantiated.Quote:
Originally Posted by green day
Seems more tongue in cheek than anything else.Quote:
Originally Posted by JimBHibees
😂Quote:
Originally Posted by Smartie
It would’ve been a merry jape as we sign a few of their players (instead of rearing our own). Shan patter.
His players were desperate to come to Hibs so he should maybe ask questions of his own club before mentioning us
Would we even notice🤷🏼
Is it not unprofessional of Goodwin to reference the business of another club at his own club’s AGM? I hated him as a player, but was warming to him as a manager ........ back to the drawing board. :cb
Does any of this have something to do with that partnership that was announced. Is our development side now called Stenhousemuir ?
Sure I read Celtic had furloughed there u18s so could be similar
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Hugely unprofessional maybe trying to put us off for the semi final. :greengrinQuote:
Originally Posted by Jim44
celtic haveQuote:
Originally Posted by dp00
if you’re happy to be second bestQuote:
Originally Posted by bingo70
For those who havent read the whole thread, this was Mathies response - so knickers can be untwisted.Quote:
Originally Posted by 04Sauzee
As I said yesterday, perhaps the thread should be removed by the OP (before it appears as "fact" in the daily record)?
So much chat over an unsubstantiated rumour.
3 of our current back 4 came through our academy.Quote:
Originally Posted by EI255
:agree:Quote:
Originally Posted by Onceinawhile
Plus feel like we are seeing youngsters being given more and more chances, though I do wish Ross would be a bit braver with getting them in the team.
I think the idea of the academy is still worthy of discussion. I've never believed in very young kids being put into a Pro Youth system. I think there is an opportunity to review how it is setup. I'm sure it will be on Rons agenda at some point.
I think a thread addressing the question and including the definitive response from GM is better than a deleted thread with only the title remaining – that would just cause more confusion, allegations of censorship etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by green day
I wonder how accurate JG was.Quote:
Originally Posted by 04Sauzee
Something must be happening for him to mention it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nonshinyfinish
Perhaps the thread title could be changed to 'Some prick at St Mirren falsely claims Academy is to close'
Quote:
Originally Posted by BILLYHIBS
Tam's wife has left and Tam is on a p/t contract, my mates good friends with him and told me a few weeks back.
I don't know about now, but St Johnstone only concentrated on their 1st team squad a few years ago if my memory is right.
They had no academy and to be fair, with the crowds they were getting, who could blame them?
I've said it before, most EPL clubs only have academy's as a box ticking exercise. There are grants they receive that fund them, but mainly for the money spent, they lose money in the long run.
Obviously there is the odd exception, but it's the lower league clubs that benefit more often than not, by picking up those players that don't make it at that level.
I'm on the fence with academy's, i can see why, but i'm not 100% sure they are worth the time, effort and expense?
Seen some stuff on the B&W army sit on this - https://www.blackandwhitearmy.com/fo...omment-1763252
Relevant para is this -
"2. Academy Update - some players have left as club felt they would not make first team. Club always looks to provide a pathway for those who leave. Academy games restricted due to COVID, but unlike some clubs (Hibs) St Mirren have kept the Academy going throughout the pandemic. Club have put some players out on load to gain experience, but there is limited football being played. High hopes for a number of players including Lewis Jamieson (Striker), Kieran Offord (Striker) and Dylan Reid. It is hoped that Dylan when he turns 16 this season will make his 1st team debut if all goes well"
eta - that was an excerpt of Goodwin doing an update on the playing side.
Seems that's the quoteQuote:
Originally Posted by green day
Interesting they made a bid for Kevin Nisbet.
Also someone asked about filling in tje corners of the stand 😁
IMO, Pro elite youth has actually worked against the younger footballer. Training with Hibs or any other pro football team at 8 years old only gives out false hopes and parents bragging rights.
get the kids into school football let them play Boys club level basically two games a day, remember when you played for the School in the morning and your boys club in the afternoon and as a protest on a Sunday.
LET THEM PLAY!
Are Brentford the model for success? I know they are probably punching above their weight but when was the last time they were in the top league in England? Just doesn't seem to me that they have been successful enough to hold up as an exemplar for us.Quote:
Originally Posted by 04Sauzee
Not sure what success is for Brentford?Quote:
Originally Posted by neil7908
Not sure if they are better or worse of than before?
Did they have debt previously?
They have built a cracking new stadium.
Just posting a link not sure how its working for them
Tbh I think this is a pretty accurate assessment of the whole Academy model and not just at Hibs.Quote:
Originally Posted by WhileTheChief..
If RG was looking at the current Academy set up and was looking at returns in terms of players making the first team then it's definitely a part of the club that's worth looking at in terms of what we are getting from it.
When RG first came in and made his infamous "pony up" comment it was in respect of us contributing to the building of more facilities at EM. That quickly went off the agenda so ,while I wouldn't take what JG has said as fact , if we are looking at the Academys function at a time of decimated income streams that makes sense to me.
The problem with doing that is if all the other clubs adopt the same policy there won’t be enough players to go around. It’s not a viable long term strategy and I’d imagine that if Brentford got into the premiership and stayed there they would rethink that model and bring back their academy. In our market we’re already in the premiership so can’t rely on leeching players from the league above us. The fact is in our country we are one of the big clubs and along with the other big clubs we need to have an academy or the whole system starts to fall apart.Quote:
Originally Posted by bingo70
How do Hibs, and other clubs, go about bringing guys in at 7/8 years old? Is it lads who have been scouted or can they just be taken along?Quote:
Originally Posted by happiehibbie
I've seen a few pictures on social media of kids who look about Primary 2 or 3 age signing forms in front of the press conference board and holding up the strip and stuff and it just strikes me as wrong. No doubt the kids will get a kick out of it but I find it very uncomfortable. This isn't kids playing at an open day, this is young kids 'signing for Hibs' and the sad fact is the vast majority will be back out the door by the time they reach 14 or 15, potentially regarding themselves as failed footballers.
So much chat over what was clearly a joke.Quote:
Originally Posted by Keith_M
It's been quite an interesting discussion though so I'm not sure it really matters how it came about.Quote:
Originally Posted by Frazerbob
I was searching for an article I read with Tom Taiwo, from a good while ago, that tore into the academy system. I can't find the whole thing but a small snippet below:
'At 16 I was rated as a very good prospect; now I’m at Carlisle. You see boys who weren’t rated at 16 who at 23 are playing for England. Chris Smalling, he was playing non-league. Now he’s a top player with Manchester United and England. It makes a mockery of the academy system, shows it is not the be-all and end-all. Boys like myself have been right through the system and now I’m nowhere near his standard. That’s the worry.”
That reads as pretty damming. However a quick look on Google shows that Tom Taiwo now works as a scout for......... The Chelsea Academy. I'm not sure it proves much beyond man needs job. However it does suggests he doesn't find the system completely morally objectionable.
Scouted. I used to be involved with a cracking bunch of 05/06 born kids. One of the best groups in Scotland at the time. AT 9/10 years old Hibs and Hearts came along and signed the majority of the squad. Even before they were playing 11 a side. Young kids who had the chance to create memories, win cups at youth level, all that goes out the window when Pro Clubs come calling. Parents blinded by the idea of their kids going to play for Hibs etc. Its utterly pointless. Leave them were they are and build links with youth clubs so they have first dibs when the kids are 15/16. I've never heard one good argument for young kids going to Pro Youth.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pretty Boy
There's certainly scouts at the 7 a side games my son plays. I think we had a player picked up when we were still playing 5s, so about primary 3 or so. That was hearts. Released a year later absolutely gutted.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pretty Boy
He still lives in Porty so he must be a regional scout for them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pretty Boy
Scotland and the North East according to LinkedIn.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brightside
Thats the crux of it for me, instead of getting kids in at 7/8 get them in at 11/12, when they're more experienced. Whats the point of a club like Hibs teaching young kids the basics of the game, then developing them in to 11 aside players when there are dozens of smaller clubs who can do that for them?Quote:
Originally Posted by Brightside
My wife used to do a bit of physio for the same group as Josh O'Connor came from and they were a joy to watch - but I think Josh is the only player to have made the grade. It would suggest to me that if the yield is one player from a group of 15/16 then we are wasting money on it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pretty Boy
I think that's what Stevie is saying, we had greater success years ago when kids just played football at school and boys club level, far too many parents think their kid has made it when they sign up for the academy at 11 yrs old and think he's getting coached and prepared for bigger things. We had more home grown players coming through 20-30 years ago than now due to them just playing football and honing their skills.
I stand to be corrected here but I think some of the press conference style set up with multiple players is a little fun for the community teams which aren't particularly based on ability but more an affiliation to Hibs?Quote:
Originally Posted by Pretty Boy
All a bit of a play on the pro game rather than serious stuff.
That does not disregard the fact there are young kids signed up of course and the merits of that are what is being discussed.
What is the youngest age group we start at.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brightside
I'm not sure what age they join the actual Academy. They certainly had them in at 8/9/10 a few years back. The Community side have them in at very young ages but that is purely recreational and no issue with that at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by silverhibee
:agree:Quote:
Originally Posted by J-C
Would be interesting to know if youth teams like Hutchie Tynie BC & Salvie are still bringing through lads or has that all stopped since the pro academies came into place.
I would prefer we went back to picking up lads from the clubs above at 15 and other youth teams as well, I watched Deek come through that system and it seemed to be working well, he got plenty experience from winning things and travelling abroad and it made these young guys hungry to get a deal with a club when they turn 16, rather than thinking you have made it at Hibs at the age of 9 only to be dumped a couple of years later because you haven't developed quick enough, must be soul destroying for these young lads to be told at 12 year old that they won't make the grade.
I was at the Edinburgh Cup with a team of 9 yr olds, so 7 a side, and the biggest concern for me was the win at all costs attitude of too many coaches, there weren't referees available so was to be done from the sidelines but this was basically disregarded and we found ourselves the only ones calling free kicks etc against ourselves and we fell into the spiral of not calling them either. Dog eat dog.
I do wonder if a lot of the reason for clubs wanting access to young players is getting them before the poor youth coaches have taken the skill element of their game out of them?
Certainly the argument would be partnerships with reputable clubs/coaches being most productive
Would be amazed if that wasn't one of the main reasons. It will be to do with competition if other teams are picking players up at a certain young age then all teams will follow suit in fear of missing out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaff
Where do you get good youth coaches for that age group, more than likely a parent giving up there spare time to coach the best they can young kids, I done it myself for 6-7 years and it is hard work, 2 nights training game at the weekend, meetings for league and club monthly, dealing with nippy kids and parents and sometimes not even a thanks for it, snidely comments from parents but won't step up themselves to help out, I done a few badges but I know I wasn't a great coach, but I knew I was doing something to help kids do what they loved, play football, don't knock the poor coaches when the SFA do nothing to help youth football.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaff
Josh Doig and Jason Cummings were picked up after being released by a Championship club 😉Quote:
Originally Posted by 04Sauzee
Couldn't agree more.Quote:
Originally Posted by silverhibee
The elite boys clubs still gave a very decent standard of play for laddies before pro-youth or whatever it's called took over.
Not sure about the current state of Juvenile football these days, well Covid aside, I'm sure these clubs are still doing their stuff, but I would imagine the vast majority of youngsters playing professionally will have come through pro-youth?
Looking back on coaching (1970's) though, there was very little attempt at drilling my side with the likes of offside or anything beyond very basic level tactics. You knew your role and kind of just developed a bit shape or at least that's how it felt to me. I played for Tynie and our coach, Dougie Dalgleish was, as you might expect a right Hearts man. He was to have a long involvement with Juvenile football and scouted or coached at Hearts. I think he just encouraged us to go and play.
Yes a man’s got to eat.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pretty Boy
To be fair he maybe loves coaching and has an aptitude for it and wants to progress to more senior levels.
Wasn't criticising in general as I'm exactly as you describe too, a parent with coaching badges who gets frustrated by the situation too.Quote:
Originally Posted by silverhibee
That is however what I mean, if kids coaching is in the hands of people like that and the concentration on winning at all costs rather than developing skill is predominant then I can see why clubs are getting involved at a young age.
As the elite level is such a small percentage of the actual kids game then it shouldn't get to run roughshod over whole structure but equally as a nation we do need to develop the skill level of our players
Edit.
I think I agree with most of what you say regards boys clubs and the age some are being rejected. What I said about clubs forming relationships with reputable teams/coaches is possibly what you with the youth teams staying separate?
On the other side of the coin there are plenty excellent youth club coaches out there, and plenty dreadful pro youth coaches. :greengrinQuote:
Originally Posted by Kaff
:agree:Quote:
Originally Posted by Pretty Boy
I have, being somewhat ignorant of the whole setup, found it very interesting and can only imagine this is a perrenial thorn for many clubs who exist just outside the event horizon of a financial black hole.
I recently said to someone I longed for the good ol' days at Hibs and he thought I meant Turnbull's Tornadoes, but I was jokingly referring to the time when we were a 'feeder club'. I know all were not products of our youth system, but we certainly were shipping a few good ones along the M8.
I don't even have a clue what the costs of our Academy are and my first thought would be that it would be a pity if it were shut down entirely, but it is all about what we are actually getting from it.
And though not particularly relevant to our position, I had to laugh that on the same day I am reading this thread, on Sky Sports I see the headline 'What now for £72m Pepe?' pertaining to Arsenal's record signing having to force his way into the 'young' team. Upstairs and Downstairs comes to mind.
:flag:
Maybe Goodwin was on a wind up? Suggesting we don't need our academy as we just use St Mirren's instead.
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Exactly, it's just the same situation as first lockdown. I assume that all age groups will be the same as the 2006,s in being given video for fitness and coaching to help while this lockdown is ongoing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jones28
No we didn't, papers media etc were totally wrong.There were cuts in coaching staff but players in all age groups were video coached and had video fitness programs to follow, nothing has changed with regards to present lockdown.Quote:
Originally Posted by J-C
I see u18 matches are due to start back in a couple of weeks
Of course he is. It's nothing more than a tongue in cheek dig at Hibs recruiting all their players, in much the same way as Aberdeen use Hibs as their official scouting system.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Allan Key
Unfortunately the details of these games aren’t published, but good for the lads that they are back playingQuote:
Originally Posted by The dalmeny
got some details from a friend. Looks like 9 teams, play each other once then split top 4 bottom 5 for another round of gamesQuote:
Originally Posted by Billy Whizz;[URL="tel:6509084"
Are we allowed to watch😀Quote:
Originally Posted by The dalmeny
google earth in the training centre 😂Quote:
Originally Posted by Billy Whizz;[URL="tel:6509637"
First game back this Friday against Utd
Fantastic for the boys to start playing again.Quote:
Originally Posted by The dalmeny
Full contact training restarted on Monday 5/4/21 for 2006 squad so would imagine all age groups will be the same this week.
Can the lads out on loan play in these games. Thinking Fairley/Brydon etcQuote:
Originally Posted by andudare2
Also must be a few loaned to Lowland league, who aren’t playing any football just now
Is there any chance of a youngster coming in next season and having the impact Doig has? I’m thinking the age groups below Murray, Campbell, Dabrowski etc. Or is Gullan, who is still to fully convince IMO, probably the most likely to break through if anyone will.
How old/close are the likes of Josh O’Connor?
Isn’t Josh 16?Quote:
Originally Posted by The Modfather
4-0 win today
Hibs youngster Jacob Blaney has taken a big step forward in his development at the Capital club by taking part in first-team training at East Mains ahead of Sunday’s trip to Ibrox to play Rangers in the first post-split match.
What position does he play mate ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tambo
Central mid or CB.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bridge hibs
https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.c...-clash-3194839
centre half or centre mid.. https://www.hibernianfc.co.uk/player/jacob-blaneyQuote:
Originally Posted by Bridge hibs