Brexit - What Now.

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Originally Posted by cabbageandribs1875

jo swinson's ToryLites abstained from a motion by labour earlier bringing all NHS services back entirely into public hands and protect the NHS from post-brexit trade agreements, the motion was backed by SNP,Plaid Cymru,Greens.


https://evolvepolitics.com/jo-swinso...__BIp5EKt6rSU0


'kin shame on them :bitchy:

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It is interesting the SNP backed it because under their watch the Scottish NHS has given at least £130 million of public money in the last three years to private healthcare providers. The true figure is a lot higher as the figure I cited doesn’t include NHS Lothian or NHS Highland, as they didn’t provide the necessary information.

I suppose the questions you have to ask are why did the Lib Dems abstain, as opposed to voting yay or nay and why did the SNP vote in a manner that completely contradicts their own actions over the last few years.

If it was in order to meet their self-imposed and supposedly legally-binding targets, I could understand. That’s politics after all. But they didn’t even accomplish that!

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Originally Posted by Mibbes Aye

It is interesting the SNP backed it because under their watch the Scottish NHS has given at least £130 million of public money in the last three years to private healthcare providers. The true figure is a lot higher as the figure I cited doesn’t include NHS Lothian or NHS Highland, as they didn’t provide the necessary information.

I suppose the questions you have to ask are why did the Lib Dems abstain, as opposed to voting yay or nay and why did the SNP vote in a manner that completely contradicts their own actions over the last few years.

If it was in order to meet their self-imposed and supposedly legally-binding targets, I could understand. That’s politics after all. But they didn’t even accomplish that!

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Can you tell us what the £130m was spent on and what NHSScotlands total spend was over that period?

It might put the figure into some sort of perspective.

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Originally Posted by cabbageandribs1875

jo swinson's ToryLites abstained from a motion by labour earlier bringing all NHS services back entirely into public hands and protect the NHS from post-brexit trade agreements, the motion was backed by SNP,Plaid Cymru,Greens.


https://evolvepolitics.com/jo-swinso...__BIp5EKt6rSU0


'kin shame on them :bitchy:

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Maybe they abstained because the motion didn’t make much sense?

Did it mean dentistry, pharmacy and eye care would end it’s long time prevalence of being provided by non Public bodies? And what about GP’s as well? Or the use of spare private capacity in emergency situations to allow people to get treatment faster than would otherwise happen?

Oh and was it covering other non public groups that often provide services like charities and social enterprises? And did it also cover highly specialised fields like diagnostics etc that maybe only the private sector can provide effectively?

Blanket statements like they used gives an emotional motion right enough that gave them the headlines they wanted and allowed them to trot out the big bad US pharma lines and unsubstantiated big sounding figures like £10bn....doesn’t achieve much else tho.

I would suggest though that the it’s actually more likely than not that providing free at the point of care, primary health services in the UK is a rather unattractive proposition to private companies. And not just because of the extremely hostile operating environment that they would be walking into more that it’s blinding obvious to all that there is no profit to be had in it!

I’ve seen and heard so many stories for so long about the ‘privatisation of the NHS’ yet literally decades later here we are and you are lucky if even it’s biggest opponents can dig up a figure that even accounts for 10% of the budget. A figure that no doubt covers many and varied services from many and varied providers not just those nasty profit leeches from across the pond.

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Originally Posted by Jack

Can you tell us what the £130m was spent on and what NHSScotlands total spend was over that period?

It might put the figure into some sort of perspective.

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One would hope it was in the public domain and as it seems you can use the Internet, perhaps you would be so kind :greengrin. But okay then.......

I think we both know it was likely to be largely on using private providers to try and meet the key targets, almost certainly mostly treatment times. And failing. And again I think we both know that this is about a whole-system problem, not one particular area. As the NHS Lothian and NHS Highland figures are not in the public domain it is impossible to give an accurate proportion. However, NHSL has one of the worst records in failing to meet targets, whilst also having perhaps the easiest supply of private providers. NHSH’s problems are different in that it will use hugely significant amounts of locum and agency. I think the true figure must be pushing on for c£200m, which I suspect equates to the bail-out or ‘brokerage’ monies, which would mean the taxpayer was actually paying twice for the spend on profit-making providers.

I think you have said before that you had a career in the NHS or the civil service pertaining to health and I have tried to say before that I am not seeking to criticise you or colleagues. There is however a fundamental fracture in the relationship between acute care, primary care, social care and public expectation. And the current administration have had enough time to try and do something about that. But it is not appearing to get any better. And the demographic pressure just keeps building.

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Originally Posted by Mibbes Aye

One would hope it was in the public domain and as it seems you can use the Internet, perhaps you would be so kind :greengrin. But okay then.......

I think we both know it was likely to be largely on using private providers to try and meet the key targets, almost certainly mostly treatment times. And failing. And again I think we both know that this is about a whole-system problem, not one particular area. As the NHS Lothian and NHS Highland figures are not in the public domain it is impossible to give an accurate proportion. However, NHSL has one of the worst records in failing to meet targets, whilst also having perhaps the easiest supply of private providers. NHSH’s problems are different in that it will use hugely significant amounts of locum and agency. I think the true figure must be pushing on for c£200m, which I suspect equates to the bail-out or ‘brokerage’ monies, which would mean the taxpayer was actually paying twice for the spend on profit-making providers.

I think you have said before that you had a career in the NHS or the civil service pertaining to health and I have tried to say before that I am not seeking to criticise you or colleagues. There is however a fundamental fracture in the relationship between acute care, primary care, social care and public expectation. And the current administration have had enough time to try and do something about that. But it is not appearing to get any better. And the demographic pressure just keeps building.

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A Scottish Government spokeswoman said: “We are absolutely committed to a publicly owned and operated NHS, and for the people of Scotland to continue to have free, timely access to health services.

“Over the last three years Scottish Government spending on health has approached £40bn.

“The use of the independent sector by the NHS to address short-term capacity issues represents around 0.5% of this investment, which compares to 7.3% in NHS England.

“For context, over this same period our NHS has had to pay around £0.75bn because of Private Finance Initiative (PFI) and Public Private Partnership (PP) contracts.”

The Scottish Government has previously said that total private sector spend, including private agency staff, by NHS boards was £78.5m in 2015/16 and £72m in 2016/17.

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Originally Posted by puff the dragon

already on the 16/1 leave with a deal on the 31st of October dude. An investment

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How much have you got invested?

Not long till you cash in.

PM putting down motion for a general election to be voted on on Monday, to take place on 12th December - No 10's gambit is that if Labour agrees, then they will timetable Brexit bill again with time for scrutiny until 6th November when they want to dissolve Parliament

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Boris Johnson says he will give MPs more time to debate Brexit deal but only if they agree to 12 December general election.
He said he expected the EU to grant an extension to his 31 October deadline, even though he "really" did not want one.
He urged Labour to back an election in a vote he plans to hold next week.
The EU is expected to give its verdict on extending Brexit on Friday.
If Brexit is delayed to the end of November, the PM will try to get his deal through Parliament again, the BBC understands.
If the delay is to the end of January, Mr Johnson will hold a Commons vote next week on a 12 December election.
If Labour agrees to the election, then the government says it will try to get its deal through before Parliament is dissolved for the campaign on 6 November.
Asked by the BBC's Laura Kuenssberg what he would do if Labour refused to vote for an election, he said: "We would campaign day after day for the people of this country to be released from subjection to a Parliament that has outlived its usefulness."

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B*gger, just realised if it happens (needs a 2/3rd majority) that it's my winter break, so will need to get a postal vote.

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Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

PM putting down motion for a general election to be voted on on Monday, to take place on 12th December - No 10's gambit is that if Labour agrees, then they will timetable Brexit bill again with time for scrutiny until 6th November when they want to dissolve Parliament





B*gger, just realised if it happens (needs a 2/3rd majority) that it's my winter break, so will need to get a postal vote.

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Winter election is said to be bad for Labour, with dark nights and freezing cold.


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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

Winter election is said to be bad for Labour, with dark nights and freezing cold.


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The BBC reporting how difficult it is to hold a winter election anyway. All the halls are booked for local drama club pantomimes (Oh the irony, don't laugh at the back) and Christmas Craft Fairs.

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Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

The BBC reporting how difficult it is to hold a winter election anyway. All the halls are booked for local drama club pantomimes (Oh the irony, don't laugh at the back) and Christmas Craft Fairs.

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Oh no it isn’t.

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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

Winter election is said to be bad for Labour, with dark nights and freezing cold.


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Is it not worse for the Tories?

Older voters don't want to come out in the cold etc :dunno:

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Originally Posted by stokesmessiah

Oh no it isn’t.

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BOOOOO!!


Look behind you. :greengrin

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Originally Posted by Hibbyradge

Is it not worse for the Tories?

Older voters don't want to come out in the cold etc :dunno:

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They all get lifts in Range Rovers, Rollers and Bentleys to the polling station.

Not forgetting they all have fur coats (and nae knickers)

Blackfords amendment to give the Welsh and Scottish Parliaments a say over the withdrawal bill defeated. 64 for, 310 against and countless MPs sitting on their hands.

Time to get out of this toxic relationship.

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Originally Posted by Hibbyradge

Is it not worse for the Tories?

Older voters don't want to come out in the cold etc :dunno:

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I would have thought so. Here's hoping for a hard winter then.

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Originally Posted by Fife-Hibee

Blackfords amendment to give the Welsh and Scottish Parliaments a say over the withdrawal bill defeated. 64 for, 310 against and countless MPs sitting on their hands.

Time to get out of this toxic relationship.

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There was a lot more to it than just giving the Welsh and Scottish assemblies a say (which is not required as the May Government ignored it before!!!)

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MPs have voted against the SNP's amendment to the government's Queen's Speech.
Ayes: 64
Noes: 310
Majority: 246

The amendment called on the government to maintain freedom of movement between the UK and Europe. It also called on the UK government to match the Scottish government's commitment to a net-zero greenhouse gas emissions target by 2045, and called for relaxing the freeze on benefits. It finished by calling for a pause on the ratification of the EU Withdrawal Agreement Bill until it has been approved by the Welsh Senedd and Scottish Parliament.

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PLEASE take your blinkers off

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Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

There was a lot more to it than just giving the Welsh and Scottish assemblies a say (which is not required as the May Government ignored it before!!!)

PLEASE take your blinkers off

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If anybody sees anything wrong with these proposals, then it's not me that's blinkered.

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Originally Posted by Fife-Hibee

If anybody sees anything wrong with these proposals, then it's not me that's blinkered.

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OK

Freedom of movement - The UK Government is dead set against this, and post Brexit will have TOTAL control of immigration, which will affect Scotland more than England or (possibly) Wales

Greenhouse Gas Emissions - While as admirable the Scottish Government targets are, they are almost impossible to meet (let the anti-SNP lobby have a field day as yet more targets are missed) And let me be honest here they SHOuLD be even more ambitious if they are to have any effect.

Relaxing the Freeze on benefits - Absolutely, but again the SNP have some power to do more than they are doing, (with one hand tied behind their backs).


That is how you are blinkered, all that you saw was that the Welsh and Scottish Assemblies were being ignored, not the bigger picture.

Good luck seeing your MP tomorrow, hope you have a good question for her :wink:

MPs have voted in favour of the Queen's Speech motion.
The motion sets out the government's legislative agenda for the coming parliamentary session. It is highly unusual for a government to lose a Queen's Speech vote; however, as the current government does not have a majority, the result was expected to be close.
Ayes: 310
Noes: 294
Majority: 16
However, if the prime minister succeeds in his bid, announced this afternoon, to hold an election in December, much of this Queen's Speech will not be acted upon, unless the same plans are brought forward in the new Parliament.

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Originally Posted by Fife-Hibee

Blackfords amendment to give the Welsh and Scottish Parliaments a say over the withdrawal bill defeated. 64 for, 310 against and countless MPs sitting on their hands.

Time to get out of this toxic relationship.

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A nation of equals etc etc.

Interestingly, all the Scottish Labour and Lib Dems (I think) voted for the SNP amendment.

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Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens

Interestingly, all the Scottish Labour and Lib Dems (I think) voted for the SNP amendment.

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Haven't seen the breakdown, what about the Scottish tories and Welsh mps?

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Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

There was a lot more to it than just giving the Welsh and Scottish assemblies a say (which is not required as the May Government ignored it before!!!)




PLEASE take your blinkers off

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Perhaps a silly question but why was that bundled up into one amendment? Did they have to do that?

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Originally Posted by danhibees1875

Perhaps a silly question but why was that bundled up into one amendment? Did they have to do that?

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I don't know. It does sound a bit strange, but I suppose there was limited time for amendments to be debated

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Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

I don't know. It does sound a bit strange, but I suppose there was limited time for amendments to be debated

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Perhaps. I've no idea what the procedure is for these things around how you lodge them/how many you can at once, when it's debated, and voted on.

Lumping unrelated things together in one bill - even if they were all mostly reasonable - just seems like a surefire way to have it knocked back much easier. Giving the pressing issue of Brexit I'm surprised they didn't just pick that one and run with it (by all means do the others separately if possible).

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Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

They all get lifts in Range Rovers, Rollers and Bentleys to the polling station.

Not forgetting they all have fur coats (and nae knickers)

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And a substantial amount of them are postal voters. It’s the one area of voting that the Tories have excelled in recent elections.

Sounds like Labour and SNP are going to say no to an election.


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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

Sounds like Labour and SNP are going to say no to an election.


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Sounds like they are running scared. They must know the swamp will be drained after the GE.

https://twitter.com/Peston/status/1187441191761186816


If I was Europe I'd now tell them to shove the extension, what a ****ing joke this has all become.

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Originally Posted by Slavers

Sounds like they are running scared. They must know the swamp will be drained after the GE.

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LOL.

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