SNP are lying b******s as well !

I don’t think a complete overhaul of the council tax system is the right way to go or even realisticly possible to be honest, which is probably why the SNP swerved it when they were in a position to deliver this.

What is defiantly needed however is a revelation of the currently bands / valuation system.

A lot has changed in the last 32 years since they were set and some once cheaper areas are now very affluent whilst others will be much less desirable than they once were.

I just had a quick glance on ESPC and there are flats in leith on the market for more than I could sell my home for which are band C, therefore paying almost £800 a year less in council tax than I am.

I don’t have the exact answer as to how this would be assessed as changing the band after a sale would benefit those who don’t move house for a long time, and basing it on local area average price would need to find a way to factor in the fact that some houses in a street are bigger than others and that the properties one street over can be drastically different in value.

Maybe some fomulae combining street sale prices over a 5 year period, square footage and number of bedrooms.

The current system certainly isn’t fit for purpose.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

Those are two examples of failure to reform.
Proper reform of council tax within the current devolved set up is very very difficult to do. Even if a way could be found, it would almost certainly be attacked in a way that burned through a lot of political capital. I think we can all agree the SNP do not have the political capital to spare just now.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

---

They have had 16 years in government to take action. They failed to deliver reform when they had the momentum to do so.

What's obvious is it shouldn't have been frozen. Most councils were freezing the first few bands so in general this is a pay off to the better off at the expense of councils who will have to make cuts

How many manifesto pledges by all political parties have not been introduced since the SNP said anything about reforming council tax?

And why is this the only one that is continually brought up?

Just wondering 🤔

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Paul1642

I don’t think a complete overhaul of the council tax system is the right way to go or even realisticly possible to be honest, which is probably why the SNP swerved it when they were in a position to deliver this.

What is defiantly needed however is a revelation of the currently bands / valuation system.

A lot has changed in the last 32 years since they were set and some once cheaper areas are now very affluent whilst others will be much less desirable than they once were.

I just had a quick glance on ESPC and there are flats in leith on the market for more than I could sell my home for which are band C, therefore paying almost £800 a year less in council tax than I am.

I don’t have the exact answer as to how this would be assessed as changing the band after a sale would benefit those who don’t move house for a long time, and basing it on local area average price would need to find a way to factor in the fact that some houses in a street are bigger than others and that the properties one street over can be drastically different in value.

Maybe some fomulae combining street sale prices over a 5 year period, square footage and number of bedrooms.

The current system certainly isn’t fit for purpose.

---

Yep using values of 32 years ago is ridiculous. I used to deal with some of this stuff when I worked in the SG and the consensus was that it would be too expensive for what would be a big shock to the system for some. Missed chance today, a freeze isn't going to fool people.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jack

How many manifesto pledges by all political parties have not been introduced since the SNP said anything about reforming council tax?

And why is this the only one that is continually brought up?

Just wondering 🤔

---

I'm not bothered about them not reforming I'm bothered about them cutting funds for councils in real terms, when councils are at breaking point. I'm actually stunned they are, a horrible populist decision

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jack

How many manifesto pledges by all political parties have not been introduced since the SNP said anything about reforming council tax?

And why is this the only one that is continually brought up?

Just wondering 🤔

---

Not being brought up for any reason other than being relevant to today’s announcement.

Labour have been out of power so long that no one can remember their failed pledges. I didn’t think many on here believe a word that comes out the Tory’s mouths anyway however their failed pledges do get brought up all the time on the Tory thread (see HS2 for most recent example)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

I'm not bothered about them not reforming I'm bothered about them cutting funds for councils in real terms, when councils are at breaking point. I'm actually stunned they are, a horrible populist decision

---

I’m not saying it is a good policy. I would prefer a full reform of the whole system of local taxation. Nobody else does though. Lots of people say they do but the first sign of it and they immediately indicate they will vote for the other guy. That’s why it doesn’t happen.
People say they want one thing but vote for the other.
The SNP have taken note and changed course. If they hadn’t, all they would have been left with is a moral victory.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jack

How many manifesto pledges by all political parties have not been introduced since the SNP said anything about reforming council tax?

And why is this the only one that is continually brought up?

Just wondering 🤔

---

Because they are government of Scotland and had the power not to make changes?

We can rip the pish oot of the Tories on another thread ;-)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Paul1642

2) 100 million for arts and culture over 5 years. Sorry but this just isn’t a priory for me when people are struggling to survive and the whole public sector is in turmoil. Money which should be spent elsewhere right now.

---

1. A lot of people work in the arts sector and need this funding to survive.

2. During Covid the arts sector did amazing work to keep peoples spirits up. We need them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by grunt

1. A lot of people work in the arts sector and need this funding to survive.

2. During Covid the arts sector did amazing work to keep peoples spirits up. We need them.

---

Not denying that the art sector has a place in society however it has the potential to generate income and doesn’t due to due to general lack of interest.

Policing, Schools, Prisons, Courts, Councils, Social work, the fire service and of course NHS are all on their knees and I don’t think it’s unfair to say that for the genaral population these things are considerably more important (even if they don’t directly use them) and the importance of these sectors combined with underfunding is creating a genuine threat to life in cases and a reduction to quality of life in others.

Other than council tax (limited once again today) none of these can raise any money themselves.

In an ideal world I’d be all for increasing funding to the art sector but in the current economy situation, at the expense of the other sectors mentioned above is just not justifiable IMO. £100 million over 5 years would be a lot more than a drop in the ocean to most of these sectors.

The jobs being saved / lost is negligible because jobs would be saved / lost in other sectors over 100 millions.

Having cops to attend immediate response calls and help people in danger / crisis, learning assistants to help our snowed under teachers / vulnerable kids, social work to help the families that they need it most ect or a few more ambulances on the road to attend medical emergencies is more important than keeping the spirits up if a small minority who are interested in art during the next pandemic.

It shouldn’t be one or the other but unfortunately it is.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...639ff2f378.jpg
Political editor of the Scotsman.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Paul1642

In an ideal world I’d be all for increasing funding to the art sector but in the current economy situation, at the expense of the other sectors mentioned above is just not justifiable IMO.

---

Life without the arts is not worth living.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...639ff2f378.jpg
Political editor of the Scotsman.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

---

Reform is a separate argument to freezing it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...639ff2f378.jpg
Political editor of the Scotsman.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

---

The SNP promised to scrap the council tax and had the opportunity to do it, they chose not to. Restoring the council tax freeze is a truly horrendous decision given that they know the damage and legacy left by the previous freeze. Shame on them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by grunt

1. A lot of people work in the arts sector and need this funding to survive.

2. During Covid the arts sector did amazing work to keep peoples spirits up. We need them.

---

I agree. Culture shouldn't be competing against our services as it will never win. You could then argue all music and art and culture funding should be cancelled as long as there is one hungry child. Sell off art galleries and museums that make a loss to feed the hungry.

That's looking at half the equation. Culture is one of the uk/Scots biggest export and contributer. These figures are uk but I reckon with the festival and our pop we probably do better per head. These are old figures but a good example. Uk gov was £440million but that brought in £48bil and 365,000 jobs. Its a huge sector and many of these jobs will go without support

That's a matter of fact financial view but more than that culture is important to a joyful place to live

"Based on the Arts Council England report commissioned from the Centre for Economic and Business Research (CEBR), the arts and culture industry in 2016 was responsible for:

£21.2bn in direct turnover
£10.8bn in Gross Value Added (GVA), with £8.6bn of this generated by the market segment of the industry and the remaining £2.2bn contributed by the non-market organisations
137,250 jobs
£6.1bn in employee compensation
When indirect and induced effects are also added in, the arts and culture industry is estimated to have supported £48bn in turnover, £23bn in GVA, 363,713 jobs and £13.4bn in employee compensation"

"The Arts Council of England received total grant in aid of £440.1m"



https://www.thecreativeindustries.co.uk/facts-figures/industries-arts-culture-arts-culture-facts-and-figures-the-economic-contribution-of-the-arts

A council tax freeze is the final nail in coffin when it comes to the chance of me voting SNP, a hideous, populist policy that will be devastating for the poorest in our society.

My local library used to run loads of great classes for parents and kids, the elderly etc. Vast majority have stopped now and library only opens 3 days a week. My daughter has been out of school multiple times because the funding isn't there to pay teachers, teaching assistants, catering staff etc etc in schools a fair wage, we had rubbish piling up in the streets because the money wasn't there to pay refuse workers a fair wage and the central government solution is to heap further pressure on those budgets by freezing council tax to try and buy votes because for some there is an inexplicable preference for £5 in your pocket paid for by £10 worth of cuts.

They can GTF.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Pretty Boy

... £5 in your pocket paid for by £10 worth of cuts.

---

Why does £5 less income result in £10 of cuts to services?

Sarwar attacked the SNP in Holyrood last month on the cost of living impact of expected increases in Council Tax. Now that they have frozen CT, will he congratulate them on listening to his words? Or will he be a hypocrite and attack them for the CT freeze? I wonder.

The problem here isn’t that there is going to be a tax cut or rise. Politicians will always respond to what the public wants.
The problem is who is setting it. The FM should be nowhere near local taxation. The way the UK state is set up is far too centralised.
This is Labour and Tory policy as well and the SNP are merely matching it in order to avoid electoral defeat. It’s a crap policy that is necessary because we have a poorly designed form of govt.
And it’s a UK problem as Starmer has the exact same policy in England. Should a PM be involved in setting council tax rates?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Pretty Boy

A council tax freeze is the final nail in coffin when it comes to the chance of me voting SNP, a hideous, populist policy that will be devastating for the poorest in our society.

My local library used to run loads of great classes for parents and kids, the elderly etc. Vast majority have stopped now and library only opens 3 days a week. My daughter has been out of school multiple times because the funding isn't there to pay teachers, teaching assistants, catering staff etc etc in schools a fair wage, we had rubbish piling up in the streets because the money wasn't there to pay refuse workers a fair wage and the central government solution is to heap further pressure on those budgets by freezing council tax to try and buy votes because for some there is an inexplicable preference for £5 in your pocket paid for by £10 worth of cuts.

They can GTF.

---

We can add the devastation of social care services to that list of shame. Social work operating on a crisis basis, social care provision stripped to the absolute bone, with councils commissioning from dubious companies set up to take advantage of the sponsorship scheme and doing little by way of quality assurance, until the **** hits the fan (which it is, big time).

As I have said before, it's a finite pot of cash and we have to prioritise where it's spent, regardless of which budget it supposedly comes from, hence why I find tram extension proposals to be insanity in the face of what is happening to our communities in Edinburgh.

The Council Tax should have been more equitably reformed years ago, alongside other key issues The SNP have not only failed to deliver independence ( an aim that many "supporters" saw as paramount, taking precedence over their avoidance of measures which might have been damaging to the wider cause), they have failed to protect communities.

Sadly, the mainstream alternatives are not really alternatives, Labour-Tory cheeks of the same scabby arse. I've voted for the SNP since Labour ****** it up under Kinnock, never have I felt more disillusioned by them than the past few years. They have had a mandate for change for many and didn't use it effectively enough.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Pretty Boy

A council tax freeze is the final nail in coffin when it comes to the chance of me voting SNP, a hideous, populist policy that will be devastating for the poorest in our society.

My local library used to run loads of great classes for parents and kids, the elderly etc. Vast majority have stopped now and library only opens 3 days a week. My daughter has been out of school multiple times because the funding isn't there to pay teachers, teaching assistants, catering staff etc etc in schools a fair wage, we had rubbish piling up in the streets because the money wasn't there to pay refuse workers a fair wage and the central government solution is to heap further pressure on those budgets by freezing council tax to try and buy votes because for some there is an inexplicable preference for £5 in your pocket paid for by £10 worth of cuts.

They can GTF.

---

While I don't agree with the policies, much for the reasons you've outlined as the great Rod Petrie once said to me "Be careful what you wish for".

The torys don't stand a chance so I'd imagine that Labour are the likely alternative to the SNP.

Copy and paste English policies into Scotland, even if they're not appropriate? Is Wales doing better than Scotland?

I can understand yours and others position, I'm party there myself, but the alternative doesn't look any better.

For the first time in a while I'll be voting for the least worst!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by grunt

Sarwar attacked the SNP in Holyrood last month on the cost of living impact of expected increases in Council Tax. Now that they have frozen CT, will he congratulate them on listening to his words? Or will he be a hypocrite and attack them for the CT freeze? I wonder.

---

Probably be a hypocrit as he's an erse. Labour being awful doesn't excuse the horrible decision by snp

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jack

While I don't agree with the policies, much for the reasons you've outlined as the great Rod Petrie once said to me "Be careful what you wish for".

The torys don't stand a chance so I'd imagine that Labour are the likely alternative to the SNP.

Copy and paste English policies into Scotland, even if they're not appropriate? Is Wales doing better than Scotland?

I can understand yours and others position, I'm party there myself, but the alternative doesn't look any better.

For the first time in a while I'll be voting for the least worst!

---

I like the idea of none of the above but in reality that's pointless. I'll hold my nose and vote SNP as they are still best of the rest.

Labour in Scotland must be happy today

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F8tnCr9W...png&name=small

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F8tso5tX...png&name=small

Council tax freeze is not going down well STUC, the greens and COSLA have came out and critised

Shona Robinson says the decision was only 24 to 48 hours before the conference so it wasn't signed off by the cabinet. She said because of the timescale it meant councils and COSLA weren't informed before hand

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

Council tax freeze is not going down well STUC, the greens and COSLA have came out and critised

Shona Robinson says the decision was only 24 to 48 hours before the conference so it wasn't signed off by the cabinet. She said because of the timescale it meant councils and COSLA weren't informed before hand

---

It’s a flat out political response to not lose votes. Zero thought from any party has went into this on whether it’s the right thing to do. It’s about what gets the voters out. Labour judged it right in Rutherglen and the SNP is having to react.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

It’s a flat out political response to not lose votes. Zero thought from any party has went into this on whether it’s the right thing to do. It’s about what gets the voters out. Labour judged it right in Rutherglen and the SNP is having to react.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

---

Voters including SNP voters want lower income tax, would that be justifiable too. Populist policies are popular, tories make a living out of them

https://archive.ph/flh8b

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

Council tax freeze is not going down well STUC, the greens and COSLA have came out and critised

Shona Robinson says the decision was only 24 to 48 hours before the conference so it wasn't signed off by the cabinet. She said because of the timescale it meant councils and COSLA weren't informed before hand

---

It makes you wonder if any real thought was put in to this at all or it was just a case of ditch the principles now and worry about it later. I can only hope they are fully expecting to be forced in to a u turn after having had their headline.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

Voters including SNP voters want lower income tax, would that be justifiable too. Populist policies are popular, tories make a living out of them

https://archive.ph/flh8b

---

I wouldn’t be surprised to see the bands move in line with the rUK in time for election but still keep the top rate.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by grunt

Why does £5 less income result in £10 of cuts to services?

---

They’re robbing Peter to pay Paul for relatively little political credit.

Councils everywhere are out on their ***** and they desperately wed the extra funding.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

Council tax freeze is not going down well STUC, the greens and COSLA have came out and critised

Shona Robinson says the decision was only 24 to 48 hours before the conference so it wasn't signed off by the cabinet. She said because of the timescale it meant councils and COSLA weren't informed before hand

---

Genuinely don't know the answer but I thought it was up to councils to decide on council tax increases hence the reason there are different increases dependent on council. Assume snp government can override that?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JimBHibees

Genuinely don't know the answer but I thought it was up to councils to decide on council tax increases hence the reason there are different increases dependent on council. Assume snp government can override that?

---

It’s up to the councils to set the rate but what the Scottish Government will do if they defy them is cut their central funding meaning there will be no benefit in raising the rate. (They’d actually end up worse off.)
That’s democracy apparently.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by marinello59

It’s up to the councils to set the rate but what the Scottish Government will do if they defy them is cut their central funding meaning there will be no benefit in raising the rate. (They’d actually end up worse off.)
That’s democracy apparently.

---

So cut their funding by the amount of increase? Seems a strange system to be honest. Also strange re council democracy that a party getting most seats can end up out of power if other parties tactically work together imo.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JimBHibees

So cut their funding by the amount of increase? Seems a strange system to be honest. Also strange re council democracy that a party getting most seats can end up out of power if other parties tactically work together imo.

---

But did that party get an overall majority, having the most seats only works if it's more than the rest, if not then you have to form an alliance.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by marinello59

It’s up to the councils to set the rate but what the Scottish Government will do if they defy them is cut their central funding meaning there will be no benefit in raising the rate. (They’d actually end up worse off.)
That’s democracy apparently.

---

It’s probably the worst form of local govt in Europe. There is zero accountability. The way the UK is structured means it is failing us all. Every level of govt relies on grants from London. It doesn’t really matter what you elect locally. Whatever London decides is what you get.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by J-C

But did that party get an overall majority, having the most seats only works if it's more than the rest, if not then you have to form an alliance.

---

Agree. That’s a function of PR and should be welcomed.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by marinello59

It’s up to the councils to set the rate but what the Scottish Government will do if they defy them is cut their central funding meaning there will be no benefit in raising the rate. (They’d actually end up worse off.)
That’s democracy apparently.

---

Yeah some councils have said they will go ahead with the rises. They are for the higher bands only. Its now going to be up to the SNP to punish them by cutting their funding in response. It's going to drag on and set up wars between government and councils

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

It’s probably the worst form of local govt in Europe. There is zero accountability. The way the UK is structured means it is failing us all. Every level of govt relies on grants from London. It doesn’t really matter what you elect locally. Whatever London decides is what you get.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

---

Cutting funding further by forcing councils to freeze the Council Tax is all on the Scottish Government though, their choice.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by marinello59

Cutting funding further by forcing councils to freeze the Council Tax is all on the Scottish Government though, their choice.

---

Voters choice though isn’t it? They have sent a clear message. Cut council tax or you are out. Can’t blame SG for listening. And any other party would do the same which is why Labour are backing this move 100%.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by marinello59

Cutting funding further by forcing councils to freeze the Council Tax is all on the Scottish Government though, their choice.

---

This seems to be a relevant article to this current discussion:

https://www.theguardian.com/society/...cits-reach-4bn

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Local Government Association

It stressed the crisis in local authority was not related to council type or political control and said the debate about council funding should not turn into a “political mud-slinging exercise”. It said it was wrong to assume that only “failing” councils would end up in financial difficulty.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

Voters choice though isn’t it? They have sent a clear message. Cut council tax or you are out. Can’t blame SG for listening. And any other party would do the same which is why Labour are backing this move 100%.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

---

SNP plummeting in the polls and loosing the by election has very little, if anything to do with council tax.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

Voters choice though isn’t it? They have sent a clear message. Cut council tax or you are out. Can’t blame SG for listening. And any other party would do the same which is why Labour are backing this move 100%.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

---

Eh. Where have the voters said they will vote anyone for this. They don't like higher taxes but have voted SNP in every election post raising them

The snp polls and membership collapsed from December last year, nothing to do with council tax

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by grunt

This seems to be a relevant article to this current discussion:

https://www.theguardian.com/society/...cits-reach-4bn

---

Snp and the Conservatives have shrunk council funding consistently for 12 years. The appalling council tax freezes has crippled councils and it effects the worst off disproportionately

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

Voters choice though isn’t it? They have sent a clear message. Cut council tax or you are out. Can’t blame SG for listening. And any other party would do the same which is why Labour are backing this move 100%.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

---

It’s the SNP’s choice , 100%.
Do you think it’s a good decision or a bad decision for the country and in particular the less well off?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by marinello59

It’s the SNP’s choice , 100%.
Do you think it’s a good decision or a bad decision for the country and in particular the less well off?

---

Bad decision, I’ve already said so. My problem is that it’s a decision that shouldn’t be able to be made. Local govt should be 100% be funded by local taxes.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

Eh. Where have the voters said they will vote anyone for this. They don't like higher taxes but have voted SNP in every election post raising them

The snp polls and membership collapsed from December last year, nothing to do with council tax

---

It was single biggest issue in recent by-election and Labour attacked the SNP mercilessly for raising everyones council tax. Labour won handsomely. If you don’t learn lessons from that then you have business being in politics.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

It was single biggest issue in recent by-election and Labour attacked the SNP mercilessly for raising everyones council tax. Labour won handsomely. If you don’t learn lessons from that then you have business being in politics.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

---

Not a chance it was the single biggest issue. In about 100 pre election tweets from Labour and Shanks Council tax is mentioned about 12 with dozens of mentions of change, fresh start, decline. Humza said criminality was mentioned a lot Ferrier and Murrell

If snp think this freeze will stable the ships in the next election they are complacent and in for a shock. We'll see in the next few polls but I'd assume its not in people's top 10 issues so won't change them

https://x.com/kieranpandrews/status/...dxJXScFNwz8V4A

As predicted.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

https://x.com/kieranpandrews/status/...dxJXScFNwz8V4A

As predicted.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

---

Another populist uturn. When Labour do it to get in its terrible when SNP do it they had no choice, have I got it right

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

Another populist uturn. When Labour do it to get in its terrible when SNP do it they had no choice, have I got it right

---

Depends who you are talking to I guess. I personally think we have the tax bands wrong in Scotland, if not the rates.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

Depends who you are talking to I guess. I personally think we have the tax bands wrong in Scotland, if not the rates.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

---

This decision, if it’s made, wouldn’t be about the rights and wrongs though. It would be Yousaf in a panic trying to regain the middle ground he vacated and handed to Labour on a plate. Thankfully for the country and his party he won’t be in position after the next general election.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by marinello59

This decision, if it’s made, wouldn’t be about the rights and wrongs though. It would be Yousaf in a panic trying to regain the middle ground he vacated and handed to Labour on a plate. Thankfully for the country and his party he won’t be in position after the next general election.

---

To be replaced by the London run Labour Party. Yippee can't wait

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JimBHibees

To be replaced by the London run Labour Party. Yippee can't wait

---

The SNP will still be in power in Holyrood after the General Election and probably after the next election up here. Yousaf won't be First Minister though.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by marinello59

This decision, if it’s made, wouldn’t be about the rights and wrongs though. It would be Yousaf in a panic trying to regain the middle ground he vacated and handed to Labour on a plate. Thankfully for the country and his party he won’t be in position after the next general election.

---

It’s a fair assessment. You can’t leave the centre ground in politics and expect to win.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I’m quite intrigued. I had an SNP flyer through the door today. It was basically a reply business card with a wee survey on it. The intriguing part is all it had on it to distinguish it was my first name which was personalised and a part postcode. No address or house number. How did it get to the correct person? I actually work in direct mail and find it quite Bizarre.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by greenlex

I’m quite intrigued. I had an SNP flyer through the door today. It was basically a reply business card with a wee survey on it. The intriguing part is all it had on it to distinguish it was my first name which was personalised and a part postcode. No address or house number. How did it get to the correct person? I actually work in direct mail and find it quite Bizarre.

---

The flyerer had your name and address on a separate bit of paper, from the electoral roll (or from SNP membership details)? :dunno:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lapsedhibee

The flyerer had your name and address on a separate bit of paper, from the electoral roll (or from SNP membership details)? :dunno:

---

It's nuts how much info political parties have on people. I sent a FOI request to lib dems and asked for any and all data they held on me and got a spreadsheet full of stuff about me from them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lapsedhibee

The flyerer had your name and address on a separate bit of paper, from the electoral roll (or from SNP membership details)? :dunno:

---

Assume it’s the electoral role as I’m not an SNP member.
Just my first name and part postcode. Bear in mind there are several houses in the street with the same postcode it must have been something like that but what a waste of time and energy. Just personalise it with name and address.

Edit. In fact it definitely the electoral role as it had my Sunday name on it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by degenerated

It's nuts how much info political parties have on people. I sent a FOI request to lib dems and asked for any and all data they held on me and got a spreadsheet full of stuff about me from them.

---

Under data protection laws you can tell them to stop sending you **** and have your details removed from their records.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by greenlex

Under data protection laws you can tell them to stop sending you **** and have your details removed from their records.

---

I did :greengrin I was just weird that they had so much on me even though Id never engaged with them., I've had a couple of doorstep run ins since though :hilarious

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by degenerated

I did :greengrin I was just weird that they had so much on me even though Id never engaged with them., I've had a couple of doorstep run ins since though :hilarious

---

They’re hiding in the bushes opposite your house. :greengrin

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by marinello59

They’re hiding in the bushes opposite your house. :greengrin

---

It wouldn't surprise me in the slightest. I had one of the councillors at my door the other week and noticed whilst he prattled on that cole-hamilton was going up the neighbours drive.
Was a good opportunity to shout over and point out that we all know he'd turn up for the opening of an envelope but is nowhere to be seen when there's real work needed done, or words to that effect :greengrin

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by degenerated

It wouldn't surprise me in the slightest. I had one of the councillors at my door the other week and noticed whilst he prattled on that cole-hamilton was going up the neighbours drive.
Was a good opportunity to shout over and point out that we all know he'd turn up for the opening of an envelope but is nowhere to be seen when there's real work needed done, or words to that effect :greengrin

---

:greengrin

Why oh why is it taking soooo loooong for the polis to complete their campervangate investigation? Shirley they won't be bringing charges/completing their efforts without bringing charges either in the run-up to a general election or in the immediate aftermath of a general election? The optics would be too bad, wouldn't they? :dunno:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lapsedhibee

Why oh why is it taking soooo loooong for the polis to complete their campervangate investigation? Shirley they won't be bringing charges/completing their efforts without bringing charges either in the run-up to a general election or in the immediate aftermath of a general election? The optics would be too bad, wouldn't they? :dunno:

---

How long do similar large investigations take

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

How long do similar large investigations take

---

Is it a large investigation?

A sum of money and three people involved doesn't exactly sound labyrinthine.

Sent from my SM-A528B using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kato

Is it a large investigation?

A sum of money and three people involved doesn't exactly sound labyrinthine.

Sent from my SM-A528B using Tapatalk

---

Especially when everyone is co-operating and the company accounts have been made available. It really shouldn’t be a difficult investigation.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kato

Is it a large investigation?

A sum of money and three people involved doesn't exactly sound labyrinthine.

---

:agree:

Specially when it seemed the money hadn't gone missing, just been spent on other things ...?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kato

Is it a large investigation?

A sum of money and three people involved doesn't exactly sound labyrinthine.

Sent from my SM-A528B using Tapatalk

---

Well in comparison a boy at work has been waiting a year and a half to be a witness at an assault trial. Meant to be a huge backlog at PF and police. Think money matters would take longer as specialists would have to go through everything

I've personally no idea though, probably some better placed on here

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

How long do similar large investigations take

---

:greengrin

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by grunt

:greengrin

---

What's a large investigation Perry Mason. Accounts seems like more detail to analyse than the vast majority of cases I'd think.

Apparently the average it took pre covid in Scotland for an investigation to start and a charge being made is 323 days, so still quite months to go on that. Not sure if still a backlog and that will be further.

To answer the original question why is it taking so long, it's still well below the average just now

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

How long do similar large investigations take

---

Watergate took several years . :greengrin

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

What's a large investigation Perry Mason. Accounts seems like more detail to analyse than the vast majority of cases I'd think.

Apparently the average it took pre covid in Scotland for an investigation to start and a charge being made is 323 days, so still quite months to go on that. Not sure if still a backlog and that will be further.

To answer the original question why is it taking so long, it's still well below the average just now

---

Aren’t we already over the two year mark on this investigation?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

What's a large investigation Perry Mason.

---

:greengrin

We don't know what the charge is. If - as discussed here - it's that money donated for one purpose has been spent on other things, then I'd expect any decent forensic accountant to take a matter of days to investigate. Maybe weeks, but not months and certainly not years. I could be wrong, of course.

This is simply a long running piece of political theatre. IMO.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by grunt

:greengrin

We don't know what the charge is. If - as discussed here - it's that money donated for one purpose has been spent on other things, then I'd expect any decent forensic accountant to take a matter of days to investigate. Maybe weeks, but not months and certainly not years. I could be wrong, of course.

This is simply a long running piece of political theatre. IMO.

---

Not sure that would be a criminal matter tbh. Civil case, perhaps, but can't see what laws might be broken.

The only thing I can imagine is the 3 amigos sitting together plotting a scheme whereby "we will tell them the money is for this, but it's actually for something else ....". That might be conspiracy to defraud, which is a very difficult thing to prove (hence the amount of time being taken?)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

The only thing I can imagine is the 3 amigos sitting together plotting a scheme whereby "we will tell them the money is for this, but it's actually for something else ....". That might be conspiracy to defraud, which is a very difficult thing to prove (hence the amount of time being taken?)

---

Are the polis just waiting for a fourth person - the smoking amigo - to emerge as a witness? :dunno:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lapsedhibee

Are the polis just waiting for a fourth person - the smoking amigo - to emerge as a witness? :dunno:

---

I'm currently re-reading All The President's Men.

I think we need a Deep Throat.


(insert your own punchline, within the restrictions of a family board....)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

Not sure that would be a criminal matter tbh. Civil case, perhaps, but can't see what laws might be broken.

The only thing I can imagine is the 3 amigos sitting together plotting a scheme whereby "we will tell them the money is for this, but it's actually for something else ....". That might be conspiracy to defraud, which is a very difficult thing to prove (hence the amount of time being taken?)

---

It's always going to take longer to find nothing than it is to find something 😉

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

Not sure that would be a criminal matter tbh. Civil case, perhaps, but can't see what laws might be broken.

---

Indeed.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

That might be conspiracy to defraud, which is a very difficult thing to prove (hence the amount of time being taken?)

---

If Nicola has been involved in a conspiracy to defraud SNP members of £600k then I have seriously misjudged her.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

It's always going to take longer to find nothing than it is to find something 😉

---

This is a very good point.

https://x.com/stvnews/status/1716691...dxJXScFNwz8V4A

Well done to the SNP.[emoji122]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

https://x.com/scotnational/status/17...dxJXScFNwz8V4A

The replies to this tweet are horrific.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

The replies to this tweet are horrific.

---

Shirley that's some sort of automated twitter campaign against the SNP? I only counted one reasonable response out of dozens. :dunno:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

https://x.com/scotnational/status/17...dxJXScFNwz8V4A

The replies to this tweet are horrific.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

---

Not at all surprising though.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

https://x.com/stvnews/status/1716691...dxJXScFNwz8V4A

Well done to the SNP.[emoji122]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

---

That's brilliant it's a very good policy. Tories numbers are awful. Probably the area a nation should be judged on more than any other, gdp ect.

From New Statesman.

There aren’t many advisers who make an obviously visible mark on the ministers and government they’re paid to help. For good or ill, depending on your starting point, Dominic Cummings would be one, Alastair Campbell another.

Kevin Pringle, who was the SNP’s director of communications from 2012-15 (and senior special adviser to Alex Salmond from 2007-12), looks to be one of those rare flowers. Since Pringle became Humza Yousaf’s official spokesman and strategic adviser in June, the First Minister has sharpened up his act, refocused his administration, and begun, as David Cameron once almost put it, to get rid of the crap.

I’ve known Pringle for nearly three decades, and though he has always been passionately committed to the independence cause and is a bit of a leftie himself, he is more pragmatic and hard-headed than most of those working in the government. Before returning to the SNP fold he spent nearly ten years working in the private sector for a public affairs firm, where he was often exposed to the challenges facing businesses across various sectors.

It is easy to detect the impact that Pringle has had since his arrival. Yousaf initially promised to be the continuity candidate following Nicola Sturgeon’s departure. This suggested he would pursue a social justice agenda, spend lavishly on government programmes and avoid falling out with any vested interest whose support might be needed in the event of another independence referendum, regardless of whether the public would be better served by confrontation.

But in recent months there has been little talk of, say, the gender recognition reform that was driven so hard by Sturgeon and previously supported passionately by her successor. The UK government’s decision to veto the Holyrood legislation is currently in front of the Court of Session, but Yousaf has been noticeably quiet about an issue that has divided his party and the country.

He has said explicitly that it is time to move on from the seemingly endless debates about independence and instead concentrate on those issues that most concern voters: the cost-of-living crisis, economic growth and public service reform. These are not the only signs of political movement.

During my recent interview with Yousaf, we shared a few interesting exchanges (I thought it telling that Pringle was the only adviser in the room with us). Some of the lines that struck me at the time still seem significant a couple of weeks on. On success and failure in government: “Let’s not beat around the bush, people are genuinely asking questions around our credibility on delivery.” On gender reform and broader debates about identity: “We have to accept that far too many people believe us to be a party of identity politics as opposed to delivering on the issues that matter to them.”

Content from our partners

[See also: The New Statesman’s left power list]

And in relation to his well-briefed plans to raise income tax rates, which are already higher for many Scots than those in the rest of the UK (with a top rate of 47p and a higher rate of 42p): “You’ve obviously got to be mindful about the behavioural impacts, and we are, and we’ve got to be mindful of what the UK government does – that could have an impact on what we do here. And you have to grow the economy, so we have greater tax revenue and great investment in our public services.”

He talked about a police officer who had visited his Dundee constituency office, “married to a nurse, really struggling, four-bedroom house, got a mortgage to pay, heating bills gone up, and despite their combined salaries, they are struggling. We’re really conscious of that when it comes to looking at taxation.”

When I raised the governing coalition with the left-wing Scottish Green Party, which many blame for some of the SNP’s current problems and which a sizeable group of nationalists would like to see junked, Yousaf made the point that, while he was currently content with the arrangement, the agreement between the two “will be under regular review”. “The Greens and us have our differences – on oil and gas, for example. If I ever thought it wasn’t in the party’s best interests then we’d take that decision to end the co-operation agreement.”

The words coming from Yousaf’s mouth were, I thought, pure Pringle. Continuity was (largely) out, and the new man had a fresh agenda. Not before time, one might say.

The Scottish Budget falls on 19 December and we’ll see then whether the hints I felt I was picking up about a rethink on future tax rises amount to anything. However, an early – if controversial – sign of intent came in the First Minister’s party conference speech in Aberdeen last week, when he announced a freeze on council tax. This amounts, in its way, to a notional tax cut, if one that will be borne by local authorities that are already struggling to fund their services after years of heavy-handed intervention by the devolved government. It’s easy to sit in Bute House and tell others to rein in their spending, while you continue to splash the cash and take the glory.

However, what appeared to be a carefully briefed story in the Sunday Times at the weekend suggested Yousaf could be about to go further and abandon his planned income tax rise “in an attempt to win back aspirational voters”. “If we can get to a position where we are not raising income tax then everyone would welcome that. I think that would be everyone’s aspiration,” a senior source told the newspaper.

It’s hardly insightful to point out that households in middle Scotland, like that of Yousaf’s police officer, are under intense financial pressure, but it is true nevertheless. There have been growing signs of public disgruntlement at a constantly rising tax burden on anyone earning above £28,000 a year, even if the money is being spent on anti-poverty programmes.

We’ll see what unfolds. And it will also be interesting to watch the response from Scotland’s powerful poverty caucus, which has continually lobbied for and supported the efforts of Sturgeon and now Yousaf to boost the incomes of the poorest. Much of the energy behind the SNP’s dominance over the past decade or so has come from the political left. How will it react to this change of emphasis?

If we are seeing a significant shift in tone and focus, what will replace the old agenda? Growing the economy is something everyone (apart from the Greens) understands to be in Scotland’s interests, but it is not easily achieved and there are deep-rooted cultural and policy problems that must be overcome if demonstrable progress is to be made. Similarly, saying you’re going to turn your attention to boosting mainstream public services is great, but again there’s no easy route to such an outcome. Unions and professional groups must at times be faced down, some brave innovations will be needed, and (even greater) public unpopularity risked, until any benefits can be seen.

So far, I’ve been pretty impressed by some of the rhetoric coming from Yousaf. I’d like to believe he will live up to it, but action is always harder than words. Pringle will just have to keep pushing.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by New Statesman

There have been growing signs of public disgruntlement at a constantly rising tax burden on anyone earning above £28,000 a year, even if the money is being spent on anti-poverty programmes.

---

Where can I see these growing signs? The only people I know who complain about the differential tax bands are people who don't like the SNP full stop and like to quote the bands in their 'argument' that the 'best' people in Scotland are continually leaving to go and live in England.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lapsedhibee

Where can I see these growing signs? The only people I know who complain about the differential tax bands are people who don't like the SNP full stop and like to quote the bands in their 'argument' that the 'best' people in Scotland are continually leaving to go and live in England.

---

I don’t think the rates are the problem, it’s the levels that the bands are set at that annoys people. And people very much consider their tax situation when voting.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lapsedhibee

Where can I see these growing signs? The only people I know who complain about the differential tax bands are people who don't like the SNP full stop and like to quote the bands in their 'argument' that the 'best' people in Scotland are continually leaving to go and live in England.

---

Most Scots and snp voters are against the higher tax but that is hardly surprising. SNP won landslides previously with higher tax so I doubt its that important an issue for many though

https://archive.ph/XXzlH
Majority of SNP voters reject Yousaf’s ‘progressive tax’
As party members gather for conference, poll shows hikes for middle and higher earners are deeply unpopular with core supporters

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

As party members gather for conference, poll shows hikes for middle and higher earners are deeply unpopular with core supporters

---

Again this is one where the question is so important. Asked, "are you happy to pay more tax?" most people will say no. Asked if you're happy that those who can afford it pay a little more to help those with none might receive a different response.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by grunt

Again this is one where the question is so important. Asked, "are you happy to pay more tax?" most people will say no. Asked if you're happy that those who can afford it pay a little more to help those with none might receive a different response.

---

If that was the case and it was popular they wouldn't have done the populist decision in freezing council tax. It would have meant bottom 3 bands not increasing in most areas and the money disproportionately going to those with less on average

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

If that was the case and it was popular they wouldn't have done the populist decision in freezing council tax. It would have meant bottom 3 bands not increasing in most areas and the money disproportionately going to those with less on average

---

People on the left often say that council tax should be replaced with a local income tax. That’s exactly what the SNP have been doing by stealth. It’s not proving that popular though.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

People on the left often say that council tax should be replaced with a local income tax. That’s exactly what the SNP have been doing by stealth. It’s not proving that popular though.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

---

You will need to explain that one. They’re not doing anything remotely close to that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by marinello59

You will need to explain that one. They’re not doing anything remotely close to that.

---

Are they not cutting council tax and paying for it through higher income tax?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

Are they not cutting council tax and paying for it through higher income tax?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

---

You are still going to have to explain how that is in any way a form of local income taxation.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by marinello59

You are still going to have to explain how that is in any way a form of local income taxation.

---

It’s not but the result is the same. Btw, I agree that local taxes should be raised locally from multiple sources the way national taxes are.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

It’s not but the result is the same. Btw, I agree that local taxes should be raised locally from multiple sources the way national taxes are.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

---

It is, if the SG are replacing the reduced CT with the proceeds of higher IT rates.

Are they doing that?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

People on the left often say that council tax should be replaced with a local income tax. That’s exactly what the SNP have been doing by stealth. It’s not proving that popular though.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

---

Not my take on it. I live in a split Villa. Both properties have essentially the same footprint. For some reason my house is a band above the one below. I only realised this when the SNP put the council tax up for my band but failed to do so for the band below ie my downstairs neighbour. At that time there was a senior nurse and a senior consultant living and their combined wage would have been more than triple our joint wage. They enjoyed a council tax freeze for the rest of the time they lived there. I actually spoke to Tommy Shepherd about it city my example and he never really put up a defence. He couldn't really as abolishing council tax and replacing it with a progressive tax was the SNP policy at the time. I can't understand why teh SNP after so many years in government cannot come up with a progressive way for collecting local income tax.

https://x.com/scotnational/status/17...dxJXScFNwz8V4A

Really crap line of questioning but it actually helps HY by making him look like a FM.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk