General election 2019

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Originally Posted by Mibbes Aye

But “we” isn’t “me”.

You can’t claim “the same or very similar political views”, that would just be another lie, which as we have established, you are readily capable of.

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I don't know whether your use of grammar in the most extreme literal sense is deliberate or not. But I would hazard a guess that you know exactly what posters mean when they use the term "we" in their posts and you only dig it up to avoid debating the fundemental points the post is making. Yet ruining another page where effective debate could be taking place.

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Originally Posted by Mibbes Aye

We isn’t me though, is it?

How many Scottish people do you think you speak for when you say ‘we’?

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Fair point as I particularly hate when politicians try and pretend to speak for us all. I think my point stands that using the confidence vote in 79 as an attempt to win votes is more likely to turn voters away from Corbyn as it’s completely irrelevant to the current election. I quite like many of labours policies and in an independent Scotland I would almost certainly vote for them, but they’ve absolutely blown it in Scotland and turning up with a tartan scarf telling us that that if we don’t vote for him it will be our fault that the tories get elected only emphasises how out of touch labour are in Scotland.

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Originally Posted by lord bunberry

I quite like many of labours policies and in an independent Scotland I would almost certainly vote for them, but they’ve absolutely blown it in Scotland and turning up with a tartan scarf telling us that that if we don’t vote for him it will be our fault that the tories get elected only emphasises how out of touch labour are in Scotland.

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It's actually quite worrying that they're still touting out that line in Scotland tbh. The closest party to the SNP in Scotland right now in terms of overall vote share are the tories. Yet Labour come up here and tell us that anything other than voting Labour will result in a tory government, while knowing full well that a reduction of the SNP vote to increase Labours vote more would ultimately be handing seats to the tories in Scotland.

They're playing on peoples lack of knowledge of how the electoral system works to give the tories a helping hand. :confused: If they actually cared about keeping the tories out of government, they would be urging as many people as possible up here to vote SNP.

I see labour have pulled a video in Wales of a nurse, fake of course, telling everyone how they're going to improve the NHS in Wales.

The 77th brigade are upping their game.

https://twitter.com/thejeremyvine/st...594366464?s=21

Fairly clear explanation of where we are at.


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Originally Posted by lucky

If you think the people of Scotland would forgive the SNP a second time for putting the Tories into power your totally misguided. Sturgeon has already said no deal with Tories so to not back Corbyn allowing BJ into power will catastrophic for the future of independence

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Are you forgetting all the years that Scotland voted overwhelmingly Labour and we got Tories. So was it Labour who put the Tories in then? What actually happened was the Labour took Scotland for granted and ignored our wants and needs. The only party solely focused on Scotland is the SNP. If you don't want Tory rule in Scotland vote SNP and for Independence. It would you rather be part of the Union and governed by Tories. Because that's the choice, Labour are done in Scotland and heading that way in England

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Originally Posted by weecounty hibby

Are you forgetting all the years that Scotland voted overwhelmingly Labour and we got Tories. So was it Labour who put the Tories in then? What actually happened was the Labour took Scotland for granted and ignored our wants and needs. The only party solely focused on Scotland is the SNP. If you don't want Tory rule in Scotland vote SNP and for Independence. It would you rather be part of the Union and governed by Tories. Because that's the choice, Labour are done in Scotland and heading that way in England

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Pre the Scottish Parliament there was as little attention paid to Scotland as there is now paid to the north of England. And it shows as Scotland is now wealthier than that part of the country by quite a distance. Having our own govt constantly going into bat for us whether it’s arguing with Westminster or touting for business abroad has been great for Scotland. With independence we could increase that more.


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Originally Posted by weecounty hibby

Are you forgetting all the years that Scotland voted overwhelmingly Labour and we got Tories. So was it Labour who put the Tories in then? What actually happened was the Labour took Scotland for granted and ignored our wants and needs. The only party solely focused on Scotland is the SNP. If you don't want Tory rule in Scotland vote SNP and for Independence. It would you rather be part of the Union and governed by Tories. Because that's the choice, Labour are done in Scotland and heading that way in England

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People aren't forgetting the deals that Kezia Carcrash did with the Tories to keep the SNP out in 2017. Had it not been for the seats she donated then Corbyn would have been in power.

Scottish Labour will get back one day, but at the moment they are no more than a fringe party. They have done serious damage to themselves in the last ten years, but are yet to recognise that themselves.

It will take at least ten years for a new wave of members to turn on the numpties that got them in that mess.

https://twitter.com/robinjpickering/...487799296?s=21
Good twitter thread on Labour’s broadband plan. It has good and bad points. Electorally it is probably a good offer as there are a lot of people unhappy with their broadband speed outside the major cities.


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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

https://twitter.com/robinjpickering/...487799296?s=21
Good twitter thread on Labour’s broadband plan. It has good and bad points. Electorally it is probably a good offer as there are a lot of people unhappy with their broadband speed outside the major cities.


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Sounds good to me. With bank branches closing we're all going to have to do finance online whether we like it or not. This will help.

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Originally Posted by CloudSquall

I think the SNP should stick to their guns, and they need to.

If they back down and support Labour without getting the power to hold a referendum just to keep out the Tories they'll never get it, Labour will know they'll **** it and back them regardless in the future.

I think Labour voters down south are (on the whole) quite sympathetic to the SNP's argument towards holding a referendum, does Corbyn really want to explain to them why he gave up the chance to govern due to refusing to accept the SNP mandate to hold a referendum?

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It's just going to be Ian Murray up here again anyway.

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Originally Posted by Colr

BT are ine of the worst companies I have ever dealt with. The very worst of a privatised monopoly. Take them back as a nationalised monopoly ? What could possibly go wrong? I can only imagine the cost overruns and delays will be even worse from them under the control of government.

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That’s my thoughts as well. Been dealing with them for nearly 30 years and they are a nightmare. Their disconnect between BT and Openreach is shambolic. Whoever decided that an untrained phone operative was the best person to provide fault information to an engineer (semi-trained!) needs shot.
Nationalising BT would be a disaster. You need to force them to improve their service, and how you do that is the real test of a government.

I recall at the time of Milibands leadership, that Alex Salmond said that if Miliband didn't know what to put in the manifesto about Scotland, then he would come down and write it for him. Hugely counter productive at the time and one of the reasons that I could never engage with him as for me, he was always a well heeled economist first and foremost. The SNP should stick to the plan to win all the seats and let what happens next sort itself out.

National Broadband for the National Good

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CCfW6HFP5cI

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Originally Posted by Diclonius

It's just going to be Ian Murray up here again anyway.

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Just Ian Murray is right..... not Labour, just Ian Murray who is the closest thing to being an independent without it being "official".

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Originally Posted by Mibbes Aye

I would love a debate about this that wasn’t loaded with a nationalist agenda, similarly that wasn’t subject to Stay propaganda.

It is perhaps the biggest issue we face but it is obscured by all the other stuff that is going on.

I am cautious to debate as I am unsure what I will be met with.

Open for fair and reasonable discussion but I am not interested in the defensiveness or vitriol I have seen so far. I am not out to criticise the SNHS but I do have questions about how SG is managing health services.

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Fair dos. It could no doubt be discussed free of constitutional issues, but appreciate that could easy find its way in. Agree with you that it is a huge issue.

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Originally Posted by Fife-Hibee

Just Ian Murray is right..... not Labour, just Ian Murray who is the closest thing to being an independent without it being "official".

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Murray is a Labour candidate and is being funded by the party. Nowhere near an independent, in fact he’d lose as as independent

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Originally Posted by lucky

Murray is a Labour candidate and is being funded by the party. Nowhere near an independent, in fact he’d lose as as independent

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Lose to the SNP or Labour?

IMO it's highly unlikely he'd be unseated by the SNP if he was an independent, and I'd bet both of my Henry Halls Labour couldn't unseat him.

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Originally Posted by Mibbes Aye

I would love a debate about this that wasn’t loaded with a nationalist agenda, similarly that wasn’t subject to Stay propaganda.

It is perhaps the biggest issue we face but it is obscured by all the other stuff that is going on.

I am cautious to debate as I am unsure what I will be met with.

Open for fair and reasonable discussion but I am not interested in the defensiveness or vitriol I have seen so far. I am not out to criticise the SNHS but I do have questions about how SG is managing health services.

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But you're not open for fair and reasonable discussion at all!

NHSScotland holds itself to account, the Scottish Government hold NHSScotland to account, the voters in Scotland hold the Scottish Government to account. Everyone knows it can do better.

You keep going on about it's shortcomings as a way to take pot shots at the SNP led Scottish Government while not being prepared to accept NHSScotland is the best performing NHS system in the UK. One thing is for sure if Labour were running the NHS in Scotland as they do in Wales or if the Torys ran it in the same way as they do in England there would be many more shortcomings as evidenced by their performance.

If, as it seems you are not prepared to accept this as fact you are going to have posters constantly challenging you.

By way of some light-hearted relief on this thread, I live in Edinburgh East and my wife just told the neighbours she'll be voting for Tommy Robinson...:doh:

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Originally Posted by Jack

But you're not open for fair and reasonable discussion at all!

NHSScotland holds itself to account, the Scottish Government hold NHSScotland to account, the voters in Scotland hold the Scottish Government to account. Everyone knows it can do better.

You keep going on about it's shortcomings as a way to take pot shots at the SNP led Scottish Government while not being prepared to accept NHSScotland is the best performing NHS system in the UK. One thing is for sure if Labour were running the NHS in Scotland as they do in Wales or if the Torys ran it in the same way as they do in England there would be many more shortcomings as evidenced by their performance.

If, as it seems you are not prepared to accept this as fact you are going to have posters constantly challenging you.

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No.

I challenge people posting, saying look at Scotland, we are doing far better than England and Wales.

Those posters, and that includes you, don’t acknowledge that Scotland is failing to meet the targets it set itself and is breaking the law the SNP set itself.

So when you talk about accountability excuse me if I wince or pass a wry smile.

Let us be accurate. Saying we are doing better than England is firstly a false comparison, because the local government cuts are two years ahead there, which impacts on social care, which impacts on acute performance.

Secondly, trumpeting that things are less worse in Scotland is pathetic. It’s akin to saying “Hey, Colin Calderwood. Better than that Terry Butcher, eh?”

I think less defensiveness and more honesty are in order, rather than clinging to the fact that Scotland fails to meet its targets but slightly less worse at it than other parts of the UK

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Originally Posted by Jack

But you're not open for fair and reasonable discussion at all!

NHSScotland holds itself to account, the Scottish Government hold NHSScotland to account, the voters in Scotland hold the Scottish Government to account. Everyone knows it can do better.

You keep going on about it's shortcomings as a way to take pot shots at the SNP led Scottish Government while not being prepared to accept NHSScotland is the best performing NHS system in the UK. One thing is for sure if Labour were running the NHS in Scotland as they do in Wales or if the Torys ran it in the same way as they do in England there would be many more shortcomings as evidenced by their performance.

If, as it seems you are not prepared to accept this as fact you are going to have posters constantly challenging you.

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Look, if the system is working at 50% efficiency, but everywhere else is working at 40% it's still nothing to crow about.

Saying the SNP are less bad at running the health service is not really a vote winner.

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Originally Posted by Mibbes Aye

No.

I challenge people posting, saying look at Scotland, we are doing far better than England and Wales.

Those posters, and that includes you, don’t acknowledge that Scotland is failing to meet the targets it set itself and is breaking the law the SNP set itself.

So when you talk about accountability excuse me if I wince or pass a wry smile.

Let us be accurate. Saying we are doing better than England is firstly a false comparison, because the local government cuts are two years ahead there, which impacts on social care, which impacts on acute performance.

Secondly, trumpeting that things are less worse in Scotland is pathetic. It’s akin to saying “Hey, Colin Calderwood. Better than that Terry Butcher, eh?”

I think less defensiveness and more honesty are in order, rather than clinging to the fact that Scotland fails to meet its targets but slightly less worse at it than other parts of the UK

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So while you keep harping about that the retort will be ...

Ach you already know but those posters will keep on reminding you.

At least there's one poll Corbyn can win hands-down...unpopularity among voters:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50403154

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Originally Posted by Glory Lurker

Fair dos. It could no doubt be discussed free of constitutional issues, but appreciate that could easy find its way in. Agree with you that it is a huge issue.

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Yeah, I think to an extent, the public don’t really have an awareness of the demographics.

We are experiencing a massive rise, which is set to continue, in our older population, 75+ and 85+.

I would have to check but I think the 85+ population is set to treble over the next decade or two.

While some of those people will never or only lightly touch health and care services, a lot more will be living into their eighties with long-term conditions - COPD, diabetes, chronic heart disease, arthritis, several others, and often multiples of those.

It represents a massive demand on NHS and social care, and neither are currently resourced for it.

I also think there is a need for a thoughtful conversation about expectations and entitlement, and what is realistic.

For me, it needs something along the lines of a Royal Commission, instead of politicians of all hues kicking it down the road.

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Originally Posted by Cataplana

Look, if the system is working at 50% efficiency, but everywhere else is working at 40% it's still nothing to crow about.

Saying the SNP are less bad at running the health service is not really a vote winner.

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But it's not running at 50%.

Saying they can run a health service better than Labour or the Torys puts the SNP at least a step ahead.

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Originally Posted by Jack

So while you keep harping about that the retort will be ...

Ach you already know but those posters will keep on reminding you.

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Not sure what you are saying to be honest, but I don’t feel you are refuting my point.

Failing is failing, even if it is slightly less failure than the perfidious Albion.

Making out SNHS is a paragon is fallacious and really, really weak. It is in a mess.

Saying it it is better than England is a poor attempt at deflecting what is justifiable criticism.

What happens if and when independence comes? Will you still be saying, yes we are missing our legally-binding targets but hey, we are missing them a little less than England?

And you have never come close to responding to the point about England being a couple of years ahead in cuts to local government and social care. I know that you know that has a massive influence on acute performance.

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Originally Posted by lord bunberry

If you think that trotting out this tired old line about 1979 will win Labour votes in Scotland you are very much mistaken. Quite frankly it’s utterly pathetic, Corbyn had a certain degree of leeway up here until he tweeted about 1979. At that moment he became the same as every other Westminster politician that headed up here.
weve had all three leaders of the main political parties come up to Scotland, none have asked what we want, but everyone of them has told us what we’re allowed. Do you know what mate, we’re not listening anymore.

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By that do you mean SNP supporters? Or do you mean the Scottish electorate? If you mean the latter, then I'd beg to differ because in my view it's thanks to the main political parties 'listening' to the Scottish electorate that Scotland now has such a heavily devolved Scottish parliament. Also, the 2014 independence referendum was agreed to by a Tory government, which doesn't really smack of 'not listening' whether you happened to like the result or not.

As for Brexit, while a significant majority of Scottish voters may have voted remain (although the million plus who voted leave is not an insignificant minority) when the opportunity came in 2017 for the SNP to gain political mileage from that (ie crank up the calls for another independence referendum based on the fact that 'the people of Scotland' voted remain) the Scottish electorate ended up returning more Tory MPs than have been seen in Scotland since the 1970s while de-seating a hefty chunk of SNP MPs.

I agree Corbyn cut a particularly gormless figure in his tartan scarf last week, but what do you expect that main party leaders to do during an election campaign? Just not bother turning up in Scotland?

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Originally Posted by Jack

But it's not running at 50%.

Saying they can run a health service better than Labour or the Torys puts the SNP at least a step ahead.

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Failure is failure.

Saying the SNP is running things better is Calderwood v Butcher.

The QEIi, the Sick Kids, the shortfall of beds at ERI, the bullying scandals at NHS Highland, the falsifying of figures at NHS Lothian, the financial bailouts for at least three health boards ad infinitum

Yeah, a step ahead.

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Originally Posted by Jack

So while you keep harping about that the retort will be ...

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Originally Posted by Jack

Ach you already know but those posters will keep on reminding you.

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Fair's fair, Mibbes Aye seems to have a very good grasp of the issues facing the health service. He has countered some of the things I have raised very well, and made me think again.

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Originally Posted by Jack

But it's not running at 50%.

Saying they can run a health service better than Labour or the Torys puts the SNP at least a step ahead.

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We don't know what it's running at. The measures used to compare health care systems are arbitary, I have already raised the point about our mental health services as an example.

Choosing which targets to meet, and then bullying staff to make decisions based on finance, or turnaround, rather than clinical matters, is not good for any of us.

I am not doing our NHS down, but when areas such as addiction and brain injuries (to name but two) are so badly served, it's not the time to be crowing about anything.

I keep returning to this, but the NHS asked not to be used as a political football in this election campaign, but too often people who don't know what they are talking about (that doesn't mean you) think they can comment on what is going on.

I have yet to hear any of them say what they would do differently other than nonsense like throwing more money at it, recruiting more nurses or bringing back the matrons.

How many people have died as a result of the four hour target being missed? How many have died because they have been rushed through triage to meet the target and then been placed in the wrong department? Those are the basic questions that need to be addressed.

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Originally Posted by Cataplana

Fair's fair, Mibbes Aye seems to have a very good grasp of the issues facing the health service. He has countered some of the things I have raised very well, and made me think again.

We don't know what it's running at. The measures used to compare health care systems are arbitary, I have already raised the point about our mental health services as an example.

Choosing which targets to meet, and then bullying staff to make decisions based on finance, or turnaround, rather than clinical matters, is not good for any of us.

I am not doing our NHS down, but when areas such as addiction and brain injuries (to name but two) are so badly served, it's not the time to be crowing about anything.

I keep returning to this, but the NHS asked not to be used as a political football in this election campaign, but too often people who don't know what they are talking about (that doesn't mean you) think they can comment on what is going on.

I have yet to hear any of them say what they would do differently other than nonsense like throwing more money at it, recruiting more nurses or bringing back the matrons.

How many people have died as a result of the four hour target being missed? How many have died because they have been rushed through triage to meet the target and then been placed in the wrong department? Those are the basic questions that need to be addressed.

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I think the second sentence in your last paragraph is particularly resonant. Staff, on the whole, are committed and passionate about what they do. The structures and processes, and the culture of consultants being treated like gods, don’t lend themselves to patient-centred care, or indeed good, safe pathways for patients.

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Originally Posted by Jack

But it's not running at 50%.

Saying they can run a health service better than Labour or the Torys puts the SNP at least a step ahead.

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Which is a perfectly valid point to make on a general election thread when we're comparing how the differing NHS's are performing across the UK relative to the parties in control in eash area.

Seperately we also ALL agree that the NHS in Scotland should be better and that's for an NHS thread I'd say... Will future cuts impact it, will the government of the day be able to mitigate those cuts etc etc

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Originally Posted by Mibbes Aye

I think the second sentence in your last paragraph is particularly resonant. Staff, on the whole, are committed and passionate about what they do. The structures and processes, and the culture of consultants being treated like gods, don’t lend themselves to patient-centred care, or indeed good, safe pathways for patients.

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Agree with that 100%

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Originally Posted by Mibbes Aye

I think the second sentence in your last paragraph is particularly resonant. Staff, on the whole, are committed and passionate about what they do. The structures and processes, and the culture of consultants being treated like gods, don’t lend themselves to patient-centred care, or indeed good, safe pathways for patients.

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I'd question that, as I have seen situations where consultants have had to grovel to managers to get the correct resources for their patients.

Financial decisions tend to be taken on a hand to mouth basis, and rarely are based on what will cost less in the long term. The service is over managed IMO.

I have yet to hear a party committing to streamlining the beaurocracy and allowing doctors and nurses to get on with it.

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Originally Posted by Cataplana

I'd question that, as I have seen situations where consultants have had to grovel to managers to get the correct resources for their patients.

Financial decisions tend to be taken on a hand to mouth basis, and rarely are based on what will cost less in the long term. The service is over managed IMO.

I have yet to hear a party committing to streamlining the beaurocracy and allowing doctors and nurses to get on with it.

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Yeah, we are getting off-topic here but it is an interesting point. Consultants are treated like gods operationally, but whenever you look at the likes of the Sturrock report into NHS Highland it flags up the culture you identify, where medics are beholden to non-clinician managers.

Your last paragraph is interesting because arguably the Tories a few years ago made a move towards empowering doctors via clinical commissioning groups. I would argue that GPs will always say they are overworked and have no commissioning expertise, so why would you give them a commissioning budget? I think you are right about the lack of long-term planning. As for over-management, I simply couldn’t comment :greengrin

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Originally Posted by Mibbes Aye

Yeah, we are getting off-topic here but it is an interesting point. Consultants are treated like gods operationally, but whenever you look at the likes of the Sturrock report into NHS Highland it flags up the culture you identify, where medics are beholden to non-clinician managers.

Your last paragraph is interesting because arguably the Tories a few years ago made a move towards empowering doctors via clinical commissioning groups. I would argue that GPs will always say they are overworked and have no commissioning expertise, so why would you give them a commissioning budget? I think you are right about the lack of long-term planning. As for over-management, I simply couldn’t comment :greengrin

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I am not complaining about efficient management, efficient management would involve the consultant going straight to the top of the tree, saying here are my reasons for spending this money, and that being the end of it. Instead they seem to have to tell everyone they deal with that they will go over their head.

What would bring the topic back on track is the public to ask more of their politicians, and tell them they are not prepared to listen to scare mongering from either side. It is quite reprehensible that people are going to hospital fearing all sorts of things are going to happen because politicians have screamed about nothing.

Step forward Alex Cole - Hamilton, Miles Briggs et al.

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Originally Posted by G B Young

By that do you mean SNP supporters? Or do you mean the Scottish electorate? If you mean the latter, then I'd beg to differ because in my view it's thanks to the main political parties 'listening' to the Scottish electorate that Scotland now has such a heavily devolved Scottish parliament. Also, the 2014 independence referendum was agreed to by a Tory government, which doesn't really smack of 'not listening' whether you happened to like the result or not.

As for Brexit, while a significant majority of Scottish voters may have voted remain (although the million plus who voted leave is not an insignificant minority) when the opportunity came in 2017 for the SNP to gain political mileage from that (ie crank up the calls for another independence referendum based on the fact that 'the people of Scotland' voted remain) the Scottish electorate ended up returning more Tory MPs than have been seen in Scotland since the 1970s while de-seating a hefty chunk of SNP MPs.

I agree Corbyn cut a particularly gormless figure in his tartan scarf last week, but what do you expect that main party leaders to do during an election campaign? Just not bother turning up in Scotland?

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If the upcoming election turfs out most of those Tories who took up office in 2017, I'll look forward to your move towards our next independence referendum with glee. The people of Scotland will have spoken after all. 👍

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Originally Posted by Cataplana

Your post hardly backs up your criticism.

In what ways do you think it's ****?

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It's a pity the forum doesn't have a tongue in cheek smiley.

😂

Labour now copying the Lib Dem ploy in Scotland to mislead people with graphs that try to take us all for idiots. :rolleyes:
https://www.thenational.scot/news/18...sWZdS1esWt5LeM

So much for the electoral commission.

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Originally Posted by ronaldo7

It's a pity the forum doesn't have a tongue in cheek smiley.

😂

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I'm sure it's got a whoosh one, I just can't find it. :hide:

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Originally Posted by ronaldo7

It's a pity the forum doesn't have a tongue in cheek smiley.

😂

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I'm sure it's got a whoosh one, I just can't find it. :hide:

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Originally Posted by Mibbes Aye

Yeah, I think to an extent, the public don’t really have an awareness of the demographics.

We are experiencing a massive rise, which is set to continue, in our older population, 75+ and 85+.

I would have to check but I think the 85+ population is set to treble over the next decade or two.

While some of those people will never or only lightly touch health and care services, a lot more will be living into their eighties with long-term conditions - COPD, diabetes, chronic heart disease, arthritis, several others, and often multiples of those.

It represents a massive demand on NHS and social care, and neither are currently resourced for it.

I also think there is a need for a thoughtful conversation about expectations and entitlement, and what is realistic.

For me, it needs something along the lines of a Royal Commission, instead of politicians of all hues kicking it down the road.

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A royal commission might be a good idea but it would be very limited in the solutions it could recommend because of the lack of funding levers held at holyrood.


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Tories and Lib Dem’s both bragging about how many trees they will plant. Problem is if the SNP were to match these promises then they would need to reduce the amount of trees they are already planting. [emoji23]


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Originally Posted by ronaldo7

If the upcoming election turfs out most of those Tories who took up office in 2017, I'll look forward to your move towards our next independence referendum with glee. The people of Scotland will have spoken after all. ��

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The SNP (understandably) thought they'd spoken in 2015 but the over-hasty post-Brexit charge towards a fresh independence referendum didn't work out so well...

FWIW I think it's pretty clear the SNP will all but sweep the boards here next month. Without Ruth Davidson at the helm in Scotland the Tories will struggle for an identity and Labour, well, as others have said, it wouldn't be a surprise if Ian Murray is the last man standing again. Nevertheless, I also think we may find that Johnson isn't as loathed in Scotland as generally portrayed and the Tories may still win a notable share of the vote, while (as in 2015) a sizeable chunk of the SNP vote will be made up of utterly disillusioned former Labour voters who feel switching to the Tories is a step too far (ie not necessarily an endorsement of independence).

As I've said before, should we end up with Corbyn as PM I'll be right with you when it comes to backing independence. However, the only conceivable way I could see that coming even close to reality would be via a pact with the SNP - and given his seeming (and baffling) determination to burn his bridges on that score I think we'll be spared such a fate.

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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

A royal commission might be a good idea but it would be very limited in the solutions it could recommend because of the lack of funding levers held at holyrood.


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Royal Commission is necessary IMO at U.K. level.

SG could commission an inquiry with similar powers at a Scotland-wide level. It would mean the SNP has to take a hit for mismanaging the NHS for the last ten years.

What do you think they will do?

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Originally Posted by Mibbes Aye

Royal Commission is necessary IMO at U.K. level.

SG could commission an inquiry with similar powers at a Scotland-wide level. It would mean the SNP has to take a hit for mismanaging the NHS for the last ten years.

What do you think they will do?

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I can’t remember the last time we had a royal commission. They have long since gone out of fashion. They had one on police corruption in Oz when I was there but I doubt the uk has had one in 30 years. I’d say there is zero chance of it happening.
I would have one for criminal justice and drug policy as well but I can’t see it happening.



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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

I can’t remember the last time we had a royal commission. They have long since gone out of fashion. They had one on police corruption in Oz when I was there but I doubt the uk has had one in 30 years. I’d say there is zero chance of it happening.
I would have one for criminal justice and drug policy as well but I can’t see it happening.



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They were in fashion in the seventies and they carried a lot of clout. Sometimes it is worth revisiting history. And no reason for SG not establishing some sort of public inguiry.

I fully agree with you that it is timely to have one on drug policy.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mibbes Aye

They were in fashion in the seventies and they carried a lot of clout. Sometimes it is worth revisiting history. And no reason for SG not establishing some sort of public inguiry.

I fully agree with you that it is timely to have one on drug policy.

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Drug policy really annoys me because everyone knows what we need to do. Every time a politician, police chief etc leaves a job they go public and say we need to legalise and treat as a health issue but nobody is ever brave enough to say it while they are in the job.


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

Drug policy really annoys me because everyone knows what we need to do. Every time a politician, police chief etc leaves a job they go public and say we need to legalise and treat as a health issue but nobody is ever brave enough to say it while they are in the job.


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No disagreement from me C, it is a public health issue, not a criminal issue.

What is a royal commission?

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Originally Posted by Smartie

What is a royal commission?

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Google Prince Andrew.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mibbes Aye

No.

I challenge people posting, saying look at Scotland, we are doing far better than England and Wales.

Those posters, and that includes you, don’t acknowledge that Scotland is failing to meet the targets it set itself and is breaking the law the SNP set itself.

So when you talk about accountability excuse me if I wince or pass a wry smile.

Let us be accurate. Saying we are doing better than England is firstly a false comparison, because the local government cuts are two years ahead there, which impacts on social care, which impacts on acute performance.

Secondly, trumpeting that things are less worse in Scotland is pathetic. It’s akin to saying “Hey, Colin Calderwood. Better than that Terry Butcher, eh?”

I think less defensiveness and more honesty are in order, rather than clinging to the fact that Scotland fails to meet its targets but slightly less worse at it than other parts of the UK

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Sorry MA but you are just repeating the same opinions over and over again. I worked in local government and can assure you that, at least in my area, the cuts have been going on for over 10,maybe even 18 years.

On targets for the NHS which are the ones that are not being met and when will there be litigation for missing targets?

At least accept that NHS Scotland, whilst not perfect, is performing better than its closest comparators.

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Originally Posted by Smartie

What is a royal commission?

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As far as I remember it’s like a massive public enquiry where nothing is off the table and it has far reaching powers.
The one they had in Australia when I was there had massive powers and were not slow to jail anyone who even thought about lying to it.


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Smartie

What is a royal commission?

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I am not being smart but google as it was very big in the 1970s

At its best it is a very thorough inspection where everything is on the table, as Ozyhibby stated, and folk have to answer or face contempt of court.

It is a massive enquiry into what is going on. The Scottish NHS is failing, as is the NHS in England and Wales. It is easy to make political points. No one looks pretty when you look at the results.

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Originally Posted by Mibbes Aye

I am not being smart but google as it was very big in the 1970s

At its best it is a very thorough inspection where everything is on the table, as Ozyhibby stated, and folk have to answer or face contempt of court.

It is a massive enquiry into what is going on. The Scottish NHS is failing, as is the NHS in England and Wales. It is easy to make political points. No one looks pretty when you look at the results.

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There is a massive conversation to be had about what people can reasonably expect from the NHS. It some point the elephant in the room of overuse, and misuse of the service has to be broached.

This could stretch from over reliance on prescriptions to the role the medical profession plays in the benefit system.

A lot gets said about how much money should be thrown into the NHS. But nothing ever gets said about how much money should go towards promoting health campaigns that will help keep people out of the NHS.

How much of the overall burden goes towards treating health conditions that ultimately come from poor lifestyle choices?

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Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

Sorry MA but you are just repeating the same opinions over and over again. I worked in local government and can assure you that, at least in my area, the cuts have been going on for over 10,maybe even 18 years.

On targets for the NHS which are the ones that are not being met and when will there be litigation for missing targets?

At least accept that NHS Scotland, whilst not perfect, is performing better than its closest comparators.

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I have no problem with NHS Scotland doing a wee bit better than England or Wales.

I have a problem with people like you trying to big it up.

NHS Scotland is doing better, but is failing by its own standards. That’s not good enough is it?

By the SNP’s own standards, we are breaking our own laws.

Answwr that, my supposed Green friend.

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Originally Posted by stoneyburn hibs

Google Prince Andrew.

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i did but it's scantily clad females that come up in the results


some of them look very young

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Originally Posted by Mibbes Aye

By the SNP’s own standards, we are breaking our own laws.

Answwr that, my supposed Green friend.

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Take them to court then. Job done.

You can open the case with the Butcher/Calderwood comparison 😁

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Originally Posted by cabbageandribs1875

i did but it's scantily clad females that come up in the results


some of them look very young

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🤣

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Originally Posted by Fife-Hibee

Labour now copying the Lib Dem ploy in Scotland to mislead people with graphs that try to take us all for idiots. :rolleyes:
https://www.thenational.scot/news/18...sWZdS1esWt5LeM

So much for the electoral commission.

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Was the data on the graph wrong? Was the graph titled incorrectly?

If not then what would you want the electoral commission to do in this instance?

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...abc510170f.jpg



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"It would mean the SNP has to take a hit for mismanaging the NHS for the last ten years"


No real need for a Royal Commission, looks like you already have the SNP Government (sorry the SNP) hung, drawn and quartered.

With regard to targets, you'd be the first to complain if they were unambitious.

The SNP have been in power for 12 years, only 5 years as a majority Government. For 10 years of that 12 year period the country's had to deal with Tory Austerity.

Maybe you should look to re-direct your ire at the real enemy.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DaveF

Take them to court then. Job done.

You can open the case with the Butcher/Calderwood comparison 😁

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Pretty much what I meant.. 🤔

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mibbes Aye

I have no problem with NHS Scotland doing a wee bit better than England or Wales.

I have a problem with people like you trying to big it up.

NHS Scotland is doing better, but is failing by its own standards. That’s not good enough is it?

By the SNP’s own standards, we are breaking our own laws.

Answwr that, my supposed Green friend.

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You say WE are breaking our own laws. That's a bit rich from someone who is a bit heated every time someone else uses the same word. WE are not breaking any laws that would result in court action, unless we, I mean you, want to raise a civil action.

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Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

You say WE are breaking our own laws. That's a bit rich from someone who is a bit heated every time someone else uses the same word. WE are not breaking any laws that would result in court action, unless we, I mean you, want to raise a civil action.

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You either break the law or you don’t. One of the means SG avoids it is by health boards paying BUPA or other private providers to step in and make up for the lack of capacity in the statutory sector. Yet people on here criticise BoJo for wanting to privatise the NHS but don’t speak up when Nicola Sturgeon pumps money to the private sector.

I’m glad to have you accepted it is written in law and I’m glad you have accepted that the law has been broken something approaching 200,000 times by the government that created that law :agree:

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Originally Posted by DaveF

Take them to court then. Job done.

You can open the case with the Butcher/Calderwood comparison 😁

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Droll and informative.

I have no interest in a legal battle, but I do know that the SNP government made a law that they have broken 150-200,000 times. Can you refute that?

And as it goes I like the Calderwood/Butcher analogy. It sums up the situation pretty aptly.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by allmodcons

"It would mean the SNP has to take a hit for mismanaging the NHS for the last ten years"


No real need for a Royal Commission, looks like you already have the SNP Government (sorry the SNP) hung, drawn and quartered.

With regard to targets, you'd be the first to complain if they were unambitious.

The SNP have been in power for 12 years, only 5 years as a majority Government. For 10 years of that 12 year period the country's had to deal with Tory Austerity.

Maybe you should look to re-direct your ire at the real enemy.

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The SNP government has control over the health service in Scotland.

The SNP government has tax raising powers it has chosen not to use.

The SNP government oversaw a council tax freeze for many years which benefitted the richest over the poorest and forsake tax-raising income, as some form of middle-class bribe.

The SNP government was in charge for the omnishambles that was QEII, the Sick Kids, the massive overspend that has to be written off by various health boards, the toxic bullying cultures in a number of health boards.

The SNP government has a minister in charge of health who is accused of a cover-up over child deaths in our flagship hospital.

You are right, they have been in power a long time. Therefore time they took ownership.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mibbes Aye

The SNP government has control over the health service in Scotland.The SNP government has tax raising powers it has chosen not to use.

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It has tax powers that would be grossly irresponsible to use without the leverage to control other tax powers still reserved at Westminster. No use in raising taxes if it's only to then be deducted from the 50% or so we get back from our tax contributions to the UK treasury already.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mibbes Aye

The SNP government oversaw a council tax freeze for many years which benefitted the richest over the poorest and forsake tax-raising income, as some form of middle-class bribe.

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All part of 'partial' devolution. At the time the Scottish Government only had the power to freeze council tax for everybody or nobody at all. So they chose to freeze it for everybody. Sure, it helped out rich people.... but it still helped out everybody else as well.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mibbes Aye

The SNP government was in charge for the omnishambles that was QEII, the Sick Kids, the massive overspend that has to be written off by various health boards, the toxic bullying cultures in a number of health boards.

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You talk about the health boards as if they are the SNP. The SNP simply gives the health board targets to meet. It's up to the health board to either agree to these targets or to appeal against them. They didn't put an appeal in against the proposed targets despite being fully aware of the budget they were being given. So the axe really falls on the health board, not the Scottish Government.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mibbes Aye

The SNP government has a minister in charge of health who is accused of a cover-up over child deaths in our flagship hospital.

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Hmm yes. Remind me, who is actually accusing the health minister again? Because all we keep hearing is "NHS whistleblower", but no name.

The claim that the death 'may have' been connected with hospital water supplies in 2017 haven't been backed up with a single shred of evidence.

Considering the sheer lack of evidence, I find it disgraceful that the tories are trying to gain political capital over the death of a child. Especially considering their own 'proven' failures on the NHS in England leading to multiple deaths. Deaths that the SNP never sink to a level low enough to try and seek political capital out of.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mibbes Aye

You are right, they have been in power a long time. Therefore time they took ownership.

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I agree. That's why they're looking to take ownership by removing ownership from London.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fife-Hibee

It has tax powers that would be grossly irresponsible to use without the leverage to control other tax powers still reserved at Westminster. No use in raising taxes if it's only to then be deducted from the 50% or so we get back from our tax contributions to the UK treasury already.


All part of 'partial' devolution. At the time the Scottish Government only had the power to freeze council tax for everybody or nobody at all. So they chose to freeze it for everybody. Sure, it helped out rich people.... but it still helped out everybody else as well.



You talk about the health boards as if they are the SNP. The SNP simply gives the health board targets to meet. It's up to the health board to either agree to these targets or to appeal against them. They didn't put an appeal in against the proposed targets despite being fully aware of the budget they were being given. So the axe really falls on the health board, not the Scottish Government.



Hmm yes. Remind me, who is actually accusing the health minister again? Because all we keep hearing is "NHS whistleblower", but no name.

The claim that the death 'may have' been connected with hospital water supplies in 2017 haven't been backed up with a single shred of evidence.

Considering the sheer lack of evidence, I find it disgraceful that the tories are trying to gain political capital over the death of a child. Especially considering their own 'proven' failures on the NHS in England leading to multiple deaths. Deaths that the SNP never sink to a level low enough to try and seek political capital out of.


I agree. That's why they're looking to take ownership by removing ownership from London.

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Where to start.

Your council tax freeze didn’t benefit the poorest as they were exempt and didn’t benefit the poor as they were on a lower rate anyway. So it helped out the better-off more than it helped out the worse off.

Public money as a middle class bribe. Great.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mibbes Aye

Where to start.

Your council tax freeze didn’t benefit the poorest as they were exempt and didn’t benefit the poor as they were on a lower rate anyway. So it helped out the better-off more than it helped out the worse off.

Public money as a middle class bribe. Great.

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Probably played a pretty big part in keeping them in power all of these years. No wonder you're raging. :wink:

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Originally Posted by Fife-Hibee

Probably played a pretty big part in keeping them in power all of these years. No wonder you're raging. :wink:

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No raging on my part. Just critiquing and commentating.

They are failing on health.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mibbes Aye

No raging on my part. Just critiquing and commentating.

They are failing on health.

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If they're failing, then they'll soon be replaced. If enough people are satisfied with their performance, they'll add to their 12 year tally. :cb

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fife-Hibee

If they're failing, then they'll soon be replaced. If enough people are satisfied with their performance, they'll add to their 12 year tally. :cb

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You cant commentate on their health performance because you don’t know what you would be talking about, do you?

For those of us who do know what we are talking about, performance has failed, and doesn’t show any sign of getting better.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fife-Hibee

If they're failing, then they'll soon be replaced. If enough people are satisfied with their performance, they'll add to their 12 year tally. :cb

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That’s the thing. When people are asked about their personal experience on Health they all say how great the NHS were. And they know it’s better than England and that’s all it can really be compared with because other systems are very different with a lot more private providers.
MA is probably right about areas where it is failing but politically it doesn’t matter because the general public think it’s going great.



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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mibbes Aye

You cant commentate on their health performance because you don’t know what you would be talking about, do you?

For those of us who do know what we are talking about, performance has failed, and doesn’t show any sign of getting better.

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Well the SNP have been in government for 12 years. It's only a matter of time before a majority catch up with your superior level of intellect on the matter and vote them out of government, right? :cool2:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mibbes Aye

You either break the law or you don’t. One of the means SG avoids it is by health boards paying BUPA or other private providers to step in and make up for the lack of capacity in the statutory sector. Yet people on here criticise BoJo for wanting to privatise the NHS but don’t speak up when Nicola Sturgeon pumps money to the private sector.

I’m glad to have you accepted it is written in law and I’m glad you have accepted that the law has been broken something approaching 200,000 times by the government that created that law :agree:

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You forgot to mention the workplace parking levy. 😉

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mibbes Aye

Droll and informative.

I have no interest in a legal battle, but I do know that the SNP government made a law that they have broken 150-200,000 times. Can you refute that?

And as it goes I like the Calderwood/Butcher analogy. It sums up the situation pretty aptly.

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FFS, I used a smiley MA. Surely even you could see it was in jest.

You are getting so wrapped up in politics you are losing sight of any light humour.

Liberal surge from Labour in Tory seats reported in London

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.t...-lib-dem-surge

Suggestions of this as a trend around the home counties as well where Tories are also dropping support. Not enough on these figures to lose seats but signs that the Tories might fall short around London and in Scotland but Labour won’t benefit.

Really does start to look like this election will be decided in the midlands and northern cities. Could well be another hung parliament.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Colr

Liberal surge from Labour in Tory seats reported in London

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.t...-lib-dem-surge

Suggestions of this as a trend around the home counties as well where Tories are also dropping support. Not enough on these figures to lose seats but signs that the Tories might fall short around London and in Scotland but Labour won’t benefit.

Really does start to look like this election will be decided in the midlands and northern cities. Could well be another hung parliament.

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All the polls still point to a Tory majority. If anything they are getting better for Johnson.


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Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mibbes Aye

The SNP government has control over the health service in Scotland.

The SNP government has tax raising powers it has chosen not to use.

The SNP government oversaw a council tax freeze for many years which benefitted the richest over the poorest and forsake tax-raising income, as some form of middle-class bribe.

The SNP government was in charge for the omnishambles that was QEII, the Sick Kids, the massive overspend that has to be written off by various health boards, the toxic bullying cultures in a number of health boards.

The SNP government has a minister in charge of health who is accused of a cover-up over child deaths in our flagship hospital.

You are right, they have been in power a long time. Therefore time they took ownership.

---

This is a little out of date but it's a decent record for the party of Government. It goes some way to explaining why so many voters put their cross against the SNP.

https://theferret.scot/fact-check-sn...cal-broadcast/

I get that you'd never vote SNP but do you really think there is a better alternative in Scotland right now?

God forbid a Tory Administration at Holyrood and can you imagine the omni-shambles that is Scottish Labour at the helm.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fife-Hibee

Labour now copying the Lib Dem ploy in Scotland to mislead people with graphs that try to take us all for idiots. :rolleyes:
https://www.thenational.scot/news/18...sWZdS1esWt5LeM

So much for the electoral commission.

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I'm not following the criticism of the Electoral Commission here?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Colr

Liberal surge from Labour in Tory seats reported in London

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.t...-lib-dem-surge

Suggestions of this as a trend around the home counties as well where Tories are also dropping support. Not enough on these figures to lose seats but signs that the Tories might fall short around London and in Scotland but Labour won’t benefit.

Really does start to look like this election will be decided in the midlands and northern cities. Could well be another hung parliament.

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The Midlands will vote for Boris, he's their kind of guy.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by allmodcons

This is a little out of date but it's a decent record for the party of Government. It goes some way to explaining why so many voters put their cross against the SNP.

https://theferret.scot/fact-check-sn...cal-broadcast/

I get that you'd never vote SNP but do you really think there is a better alternative in Scotland right now?

God forbid a Tory Administration at Holyrood and can you imagine the omni-shambles that is Scottish Labour at the helm.

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There is no alternative in Scotland just now. And that is a problem medium term. Last thing we need is the SNP getting complacent.


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Britain Elects website has regional polls showing Labour vote collapsing across the midlands but Tories being eaten into by Brexit.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Colr

Britain Elects website has regional polls showing Labour vote collapsing across the midlands but Tories being eaten into by Brexit.

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if Crobyn has caved on free movement then their vote is going to collapse further.

Watching London Politics this morning talking about Alexander de Pfeffel’s slim majority in Uxbridge.

What happen’s if Boris loses his seat but the Tories get a majority.

The Tories didn’t have a deputy PM and don’t have a deputy leader? Who would be PM?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

All the polls still point to a Tory majority. If anything they are getting better for Johnson.


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Comfortable Tory lead across the latest polls:

https://politicshome.com/news/uk/pol...ion-polls-give

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Colr

Watching London Politics this morning talking about Alexander de Pfeffel’s slim majority in Uxbridge.

What happen’s if Boris loses his seat but the Tories get a majority.

The Tories didn’t have a deputy PM and don’t have a deputy leader? Who would be PM?

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He could be made a member of the House of Lords which would enable him to remain as PM until he won a seat somewhere else. He would need a deputy to speak for him in the commons though.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by marinello59

He could be made a member of the House of Lords which would enable him to remain as PM until he won a seat somewhere else. He would need a deputy to speak for him in the commons though.

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How long does it take to be made a Lord, I wonder? Who would propose him. The Queen would have to agree. Would put her in a difficult position (he’s done that before).

I wonder who the official second in command is in the Tories.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by marinello59

He could be made a member of the House of Lords which would enable him to remain as PM until he won a seat somewhere else. He would need a deputy to speak for him in the commons though.

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The possibility of being Lord Boris would no doubt be an appealing prospect, as would avoiding PMQ's

Quote:

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Originally Posted by G B Young

Comfortable Tory lead across the latest polls:

https://politicshome.com/news/uk/pol...ion-polls-give

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How is their lead looking in Scotland?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by marinello59

if Crobyn has caved on free movement then their vote is going to collapse further.

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He's advocating filling important vacancies with people from outwith Britain, I think. Boris is talking about an Australian points system also. Same idea.

Free Movement is a term we've grown used to since Brexit started but it's not something you can just turn off. If fewer EU folk come here after Brexit, we'll have to get folk from elsewhere. Unfortunately, we can't hope to fill posts from our own employment pool.

Actually, I admire Corbyn for coming up with radical policy proposals that sound something like government taking an interest in its people. If the Labour vote collapses because of that then more fool the electorate, say I.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by heretoday

Actually, I admire Corbyn for coming up with radical policy proposals that sound something like government taking an interest in its people. If the Labour vote collapses because of that then more fool the electorate, say I.

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Many people don't want government "taking an interest in them". They want government to stay out of their lives as much as possible.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by G B Young

Comfortable Tory lead across the latest polls:

https://politicshome.com/news/uk/pol...ion-polls-give

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When you look at the policy proposals of the two major parties, combined with the rank incompetence of Johnson and his hardline Brexit government, I find this astonishing. Perhaps I'm just way outside mainstream opinion (I probably am) but I find this poll baffling. Perhaps it's wrong, like at the last general election when the polls predicted a Conservative majority of over one hundred. I don't know.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hibernia&Alba

When you look at the policy proposals of the two major parties, combined with the rank incompetence of Johnson and his hardline Brexit government, I find this astonishing. Perhaps I'm just way outside mainstream opinion (I probably am) but I find this poll baffling. Perhaps it's wrong, like at the last general election when the polls predicted a Conservative majority of over one hundred. I don't know.

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Only brexit is keeping Corbyn competitive which is amazing considering he personally would rather be out.


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

Only brexit is keeping Corbyn competitive which is amazing considering he personally would rather be out.


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Yet there are a number of innovative and exciting policy proposals from Labour, in contrast to the Tories' more of the same neoliberalism. This election represents the first opportunity in a generation to move away from Thatcherism.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hibernia&Alba

Yet there are a number of innovative and exciting policy proposals from Labour, in contrast to the Tories' more of the same neoliberalism. This election represents the first opportunity in a generation to move away from Thatcherism.

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Your assuming people want that? I don’t think there is much appetite for a return to nationalised industries and socialism in the UK.


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

Your assuming people want that? I don’t think there is much appetite for a return to nationalised industries and socialism in the UK.


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Yet the Corbyn proposals would improve the lives of the vast majority, both personally and as a society. The majority of people would be financially better off, if nothing else. It's baffling to me.