Brexit - What Now.

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Originally Posted by Callum_62

EU are apparently going to remove the 31st October hard deadline next week

Hows that for flexibility

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They've buckled, the spirt of Dunkirk has prevailed.

#fightthemonthebeaches.

:greengrin

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Originally Posted by CloudSquall

They've buckled, the spirt of Dunkirk has prevailed.

#fightthemonthebeaches.

:greengrin

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Out manovered our glorious PM and given palimentarians the time needed to avoid no deal - if true ofcourse

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Originally Posted by Callum_62

Out manovered our glorious PM and given palimentarians the time needed to avoid no deal - if true of course

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Denied by European sources.

Not much of an achievement, in any case, to outmanoeuvre an overpromoted rubber bath toy.

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Originally Posted by lapsedhibee

Denied by European sources.

Not much of an achievement, in any case, to outmanoeuvre an overpromoted rubber bath toy.

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[emoji23][emoji106]

Not saying its a glorious achievement but would throw a spanner in the works to the real reason the queen's speech was called

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by G B Young

He's saying there was no need for the parliamentarians who brought this to court to seek an interim interdict. Essentially they were wasting court time with no logical requirement for such a move ahead of a full hearing.

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That's a very warped - and incorrect - view of events.

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Originally Posted by grunt

That's a very warped - and incorrect - view of events.

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I'm only basing that on the Radio Scotland reporter's summation I heard coming home last night. She said the judge had pointed out that with a full hearing scheduled for next week - and the fact nothing can actually happen with regards to prorogation before parliament returns - there was no cogent reason for an interim interdict, so essentially yesterday's proceedings were needless. When asked if there was a precedent for a situation such as this the QC for the parliamentarians had apparently cited the Claim of Right from 1869 (!?), prompting the judge to ask if there was a more recent precedent - the answer to that was no.

From the judge's actual ruling:

[7] The grant of interim interdict and interim suspension is a matter in relation to whichthe court possesses a broad discretion. Normally a party seeking such interim ordersrequires to show that there is a cogent need for the orders to be made.[8] I am not satisfied that it has been demonstrated that there is a cogent need forinterim suspension or interim interdict to be granted at this stage. At the moment, asubstantive hearing is set down to take place on Friday 6 September, before the first possibledate on which Parliament could be prorogued.

So where does it say anything about wasting court time? If nothing else it served to bring the full hearing forward from Friday to Tuesday.

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Originally Posted by Peevemor

So where does it say anything about wasting court time? If nothing else it served to bring the full hearing forward from Friday to Tuesday.

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Why go to the bother of seeking an interim interdict when there was already a full hearing scheduled? It seemed a foregone conclusion that such a move would be thrown out.

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Originally Posted by G B Young

Why go to the bother of seeking an interim interdict when there was already a full hearing scheduled? It seemed a foregone conclusion that such a move would be thrown out.

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I think it was a safety net. In case the hearing was postponed. The government QC wanted it to be later.

Belt and braces approach.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by G B Young

Why go to the bother of seeking an interim interdict when there was already a full hearing scheduled? It seemed a foregone conclusion that such a move would be thrown out.

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The full hearing was scheduled for Friday 6th. The judge judged that it was a matter of such public importance that it needed to be brought forward to Tuesday 3rd. Hardly a waste of time.

https://t.co/CyJSl9Tu3H?amp=1

We have lost a common sense in this country

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We all know the stance on the Irish backstop, and we have heard how the EU are going to back down.




https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49540681

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Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

We all know the stance on the Irish backstop, and we have heard how the EU are going to back down.

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The EU always caves at the last minute.
The EU needs us more than we need them, because we buy cars from Germany.
The EU is punishing us to show every other member state how difficult leaving, which they all want to do, can be.
The EU is the Fourth Reich.
Three pin plugs.
Prawn cocktail crisps.

Bananas.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

We all know the stance on the Irish backstop, and we have heard how the EU are going to back down.




https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49540681

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So there you have it, a no deal Brexit is down to the Europeans inflexibility!!

Can't see anything other than a no deal exit happening at this point.

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Originally Posted by lord bunberry

I’m going to say it as I want to be honest, I hope we leave without a deal. It will undoubtedly lead to Scottish independence and that’s what I think is the best option for Scotland right now. I voted to remain and even when leave won I never thought for a second we’d be in this position. It’s time to pull up the drawbridge and let England get on with whatever it wants to do. It’s time we looked after ourselves and put the question back to the Scottish people. It’s beyond my comprehension as to why anyone would look at the current situation and think we’d not be better by leaving it behind. I know I’m being selfish, but I want my daughter to grow up in a country that has the same prospects and rights that I had. I’m a middle aged man that has made his choices in life for good or bad, my daughter is a child that has all that ahead of her. I might be being a bit dramatic, but my daughter is my life and the thought of her growing up in a country that appears to be moving ever further to the right saddens me.

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I live in England, I have a daughter who has just turned four. I am so sad we have ended up where we are. I have friends and colleagues who know nothing about their future. I am about to watch Gove on Andrew Marr but may have to disconnect because I know he will be a nippy wee James Hunt

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Originally Posted by CloudSquall

Can't see anything other than a no deal exit happening at this point.

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It's now no deal or revoke - there is no longer any middle ground

No deal by far the most likely I reckon

Regardless England is lurching much further right than ever before, which frankly none of the above will do anything to help resolve

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Originally Posted by Callum_62

It's now no deal or revoke - there is no longer any middle ground

No deal by far the most likely I reckon

Regardless England is lurching much further right than ever before, which frankly none of the above will do anything to help resolve

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I've been reading people get frustrated now at Sturgeon and the SNP, wanting them to stop trying to save England from itself and concentrate on independence and saving Scotland from the inevitable ****storm to come, I can't argue with that anymore.

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Originally Posted by Callum_62

It's now no deal or revoke - there is no longer any middle ground

No deal by far the most likely I reckon

Regardless England is lurching much further right than ever before, which frankly none of the above will do anything to help resolve

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100% agree. Everyone is now playing winner takes all. There is no compromise to be had anymore.


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by CloudSquall

I've been reading people get frustrated now at Sturgeon and the SNP, wanting them to stop trying to save England from itself and concentrate on independence and saving Scotland from the inevitable ****storm to come, I can't argue with that anymore.

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That can't be right. People say that she wants a no deal, so why has she been trying to save England?

I'm getting confused.

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Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

That can't be right. People say that she wants a no deal, so why has she been trying to save England?

I'm getting confused.

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People just can’t seem to accept sometimes politicians just try to do the right thing.


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I'm now convinced no deal is the correct option for us
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...b49bf5e31e.jpg

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Originally Posted by Callum_62

I'm now convinced no deal is the correct option for us
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...b49bf5e31e.jpg

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Look up the supersizers go wartime to see what the food you need is like!!

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Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

That can't be right. People say that she wants a no deal, so why has she been trying to save England?

I'm getting confused.

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The whole point is to make it look like she is. Nicola Sturgeon isn't daft. She knew no deal was inevitable from the very beginning and that nothing she could try would risk stopping it from happening.

So no deal happens. Nicola Sturgeon can say she's "tried everything" and "Scotland has been ignored at every turn". The Lib Dem vote in Scotland collapses.

It's perfect.

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Originally Posted by Fife-Hibee

The whole point is to make it look like she is. Nicola Sturgeon isn't daft. She knew no deal was inevitable from the very beginning and that nothing she could try would risk stopping it from happening.

So no deal happens. Nicola Sturgeon can say she's "tried everything" and "Scotland has been ignored at every turn". The Lib Dem vote in Scotland collapses.

It's perfect.

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That's the sum of it, although I'm not sure she saw no deal as inevitable right from the beginning. She thought Brexit per se would be the catalyst for a fresh independence drive, but called that wrong and had to 'reset' her plans.

A decent summation of the PM's strategy:

When Winston Churchill was asked whether Downing Street personnel could have a week’s holiday for Christmas, he declined immediately. It was 1940 and Churchill, “surprised” by the request, explained that he planned to work “continuously”. Staff were only allowed time off to attend Divine Service, and Churchill wished them “a busy Christmas and a frantic New Year”.

He only took eight days’ holiday between the start and end of the war, and even then had cables delivered on at least some of those days, as Andrew Roberts recounts in his wonderful biography. Assistants would go home at 6am, before being back on duty by 10am; Cabinet meetings were routinely held well after midnight. There was a war, and it had to be won.

It is no secret that Boris Johnson admires Churchill: he, too, wrote a paean to the great man, and (perhaps too obviously) would love, in time, to be seen as his 21st-century incarnation, a thought that used to amuse his opponents but now infuriates them.

It would, of course, be preposterous even to begin to equate our present political and constitutional crisis with the Second World War, humanity’s darkest hour. But the No 10 operation’s Stakhanovite work rate, its extreme centralisation of power, its obsession with military history, psychology and thinking, its determination to force the lumbering British state to move more nimbly, all confirm that it is acting as if we, too, were in the midst of a real, existential conflict.

Those who thought that Johnson’s administration would be amateurish, lackadaisical or downright lazy still cannot quite believe how badly they misjudged him. This Government is modelled on a wartime operation, fortunately minus the actual war. The Remainer ultras, used to the defeatism of the May regime, or even the too-clever-by-half, fly-by-the-seat-of-our-pants approach of the Cameron years, have been wrong-footed. They are too angry to think calmly, and are falling into the ever-more complex traps laid for them by Dominic Cummings, Johnson’s chief adviser.

It is impossible to understand the past 24 hours without realising that No 10 genuinely believes that this is a historic “do or die” moment, and not just because of Brexit. It is convinced that it has to work harder, faster and more intelligently than its opponents, leveraging the power of the executive and pushing constitutional conventions to their limits to defeat the enemy. Like the most ruthless of generals, it is prepared to incur losses along the way, and to sacrifice anything or anybody non-essential, in pursuit of the ultimate prize. It is ready to take as many massive risks as necessary, as military leaders must always do in war time.

Hence yesterday’s latest, explosive chess move: it fell well short of proroguing Parliament in the full sense of that term, and was therefore constitutionally proper. But, by reducing the time available to Remainers to overthrow the Government or halt Brexit, it has wreaked havoc with their planning, and driven them into another wild rage.

The reality is that the Boris/Cummings agenda is extraordinarily ambitious, and amounts to the greatest political gamble in recent history. They want to push through a real Brexit, preferably with a massively better deal than May’s; win a majority in Parliament for a Tory party reshaped along Johnsonite lines; destroy Jeremy Corbyn and force the Labour Party back on to the political centre-ground; eliminate the need for the Brexit Party; and recast the country with historic reforms to education, taxation, planning, immigration and economic policy.

For Johnson to pull all of this off would require him not just to win the looming general election but probably to stay in power for a decade, allowing him to emerge as the third great Tory leader of the past 100 years. Whether they like it or not, he is the centre-Right’s last and only chance. He either gets his way, or the Tories will break up and the most socialist Labour Party in our history will seize power, backed by all the Left-wing parties, including the SNP. Under such a nightmare scenario, Brexit would be made to fail disastrously, discrediting the idea entirely, or it would be cancelled.

The next few weeks – and especially next Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday – will thus be the most important period for the future of the UK at least since the Falklands War. Had Lady Thatcher lost, pro-Soviet socialism would have triumphed in Britain. Her victory allowed a capitalist revolution and helped bring about the triumph of the free world. The challenge today is just as great, but the present Prime Minister’s position is objectively far weaker than the Iron Lady’s ever was.

Johnson doesn’t really have a parliamentary majority, and some of his dissidents are fanatics who are willing to let in Corbyn. The May/Hammond strategy has precipitated the destruction of the constitution, with a broken Parliament now ensuring the country is ungovernable. The PM needs to keep enough Remainers on side not to lose a no‑confidence vote, and that requires negotiation with the EU.

But doing so means focusing on the backstop for now, which risks alienating Brexiteers. Boris and Sajid Javid need to work closely on a Budget with massive tax cuts at its heart; the Treasury establishment will try its best to oppose this. Javid must stand firm and prepare the greatest Tory, supply-side Budget in 30 years, even if the deficit increases.

The obstacles are too many to list. If Boris does lose a vote of confidence, will he really be able to delay the election to November? And if Parliament seizes control, will he be able to bypass MPs by dissolving Parliament with Corbyn’s help? Is there any chance of passing any kind of new deal now? Is there any hope that Johnson could win a pre-Brexit election, given that Nigel Farage won’t stand down his troops?

Yet if the past month has taught us anything it is that politics is not like physics: there is no immutable law of gravity. Brilliant political leadership can overcome almost everything – or at least, as he rereads his biography of Churchill, that is what Johnson will be telling himself. Let us hope he is right.

You didn't say where that fawning piece is attributed to. Waxing lyrical about the Falklands war that could have been avoided, saving British and Argentine lives, telling us that actually Johnson is a political genius saving us from ourselves, comparing him to a wartime Churchill, telling us that actually we are at war, that enemies are all around us, shouting for massive tax cuts( presumably more so for the richest in society) even if the deficit increases. Looks like a very right wing source to me and probably not very balanced

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Originally Posted by weecounty hibby

You didn't say where that fawning piece is attributed to. Waxing lyrical about the Falklands war that could have been avoided, saving British and Argentine lives, telling us that actually Johnson is a political genius saving us from ourselves, comparing him to a wartime Churchill, telling us that actually we are at war, that enemies are all around us, shouting for massive tax cuts( presumably more so for the richest in society) even if the deficit increases. Looks like a very right wing source to me and probably not very balanced

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You know what? I was selling at a craft fair today, my best customer was a German family who accounted for more than 50%of my turnover for the day. I said don't mention Brexit, the husband replied, deadpan, so long as you don't mention the war, then winked and laughed. Who said Germans had no sense of humour? 😉

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Originally Posted by G B Young

A decent summation of the PM's strategy:

When Winston Churchill was asked whether Downing Street personnel could have a week’s holiday for Christmas, he declined immediately. It was 1940 and Churchill, “surprised” by the request, explained that he planned to work “continuously”. Staff were only allowed time off to attend Divine Service, and Churchill wished them “a busy Christmas and a frantic New Year”.

He only took eight days’ holiday between the start and end of the war, and even then had cables delivered on at least some of those days, as Andrew Roberts recounts in his wonderful biography. Assistants would go home at 6am, before being back on duty by 10am; Cabinet meetings were routinely held well after midnight. There was a war, and it had to be won.

It is no secret that Boris Johnson admires Churchill: he, too, wrote a paean to the great man, and (perhaps too obviously) would love, in time, to be seen as his 21st-century incarnation, a thought that used to amuse his opponents but now infuriates them.

It would, of course, be preposterous even to begin to equate our present political and constitutional crisis with the Second World War, humanity’s darkest hour. But the No 10 operation’s Stakhanovite work rate, its extreme centralisation of power, its obsession with military history, psychology and thinking, its determination to force the lumbering British state to move more nimbly, all confirm that it is acting as if we, too, were in the midst of a real, existential conflict.

Those who thought that Johnson’s administration would be amateurish, lackadaisical or downright lazy still cannot quite believe how badly they misjudged him. This Government is modelled on a wartime operation, fortunately minus the actual war. The Remainer ultras, used to the defeatism of the May regime, or even the too-clever-by-half, fly-by-the-seat-of-our-pants approach of the Cameron years, have been wrong-footed. They are too angry to think calmly, and are falling into the ever-more complex traps laid for them by Dominic Cummings, Johnson’s chief adviser.

It is impossible to understand the past 24 hours without realising that No 10 genuinely believes that this is a historic “do or die” moment, and not just because of Brexit. It is convinced that it has to work harder, faster and more intelligently than its opponents, leveraging the power of the executive and pushing constitutional conventions to their limits to defeat the enemy. Like the most ruthless of generals, it is prepared to incur losses along the way, and to sacrifice anything or anybody non-essential, in pursuit of the ultimate prize. It is ready to take as many massive risks as necessary, as military leaders must always do in war time.

Hence yesterday’s latest, explosive chess move: it fell well short of proroguing Parliament in the full sense of that term, and was therefore constitutionally proper. But, by reducing the time available to Remainers to overthrow the Government or halt Brexit, it has wreaked havoc with their planning, and driven them into another wild rage.

The reality is that the Boris/Cummings agenda is extraordinarily ambitious, and amounts to the greatest political gamble in recent history. They want to push through a real Brexit, preferably with a massively better deal than May’s; win a majority in Parliament for a Tory party reshaped along Johnsonite lines; destroy Jeremy Corbyn and force the Labour Party back on to the political centre-ground; eliminate the need for the Brexit Party; and recast the country with historic reforms to education, taxation, planning, immigration and economic policy.

For Johnson to pull all of this off would require him not just to win the looming general election but probably to stay in power for a decade, allowing him to emerge as the third great Tory leader of the past 100 years. Whether they like it or not, he is the centre-Right’s last and only chance. He either gets his way, or the Tories will break up and the most socialist Labour Party in our history will seize power, backed by all the Left-wing parties, including the SNP. Under such a nightmare scenario, Brexit would be made to fail disastrously, discrediting the idea entirely, or it would be cancelled.

The next few weeks – and especially next Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday – will thus be the most important period for the future of the UK at least since the Falklands War. Had Lady Thatcher lost, pro-Soviet socialism would have triumphed in Britain. Her victory allowed a capitalist revolution and helped bring about the triumph of the free world. The challenge today is just as great, but the present Prime Minister’s position is objectively far weaker than the Iron Lady’s ever was.

Johnson doesn’t really have a parliamentary majority, and some of his dissidents are fanatics who are willing to let in Corbyn. The May/Hammond strategy has precipitated the destruction of the constitution, with a broken Parliament now ensuring the country is ungovernable. The PM needs to keep enough Remainers on side not to lose a no‑confidence vote, and that requires negotiation with the EU.

But doing so means focusing on the backstop for now, which risks alienating Brexiteers. Boris and Sajid Javid need to work closely on a Budget with massive tax cuts at its heart; the Treasury establishment will try its best to oppose this. Javid must stand firm and prepare the greatest Tory, supply-side Budget in 30 years, even if the deficit increases.

The obstacles are too many to list. If Boris does lose a vote of confidence, will he really be able to delay the election to November? And if Parliament seizes control, will he be able to bypass MPs by dissolving Parliament with Corbyn’s help? Is there any chance of passing any kind of new deal now? Is there any hope that Johnson could win a pre-Brexit election, given that Nigel Farage won’t stand down his troops?

Yet if the past month has taught us anything it is that politics is not like physics: there is no immutable law of gravity. Brilliant political leadership can overcome almost everything – or at least, as he rereads his biography of Churchill, that is what Johnson will be telling himself. Let us hope he is right.

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Summary? PR piece surely.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by weecounty hibby

You didn't say where that fawning piece is attributed to. Waxing lyrical about the Falklands war that could have been avoided, saving British and Argentine lives, telling us that actually Johnson is a political genius saving us from ourselves, comparing him to a wartime Churchill, telling us that actually we are at war, that enemies are all around us, shouting for massive tax cuts( presumably more so for the richest in society) even if the deficit increases. Looks like a very right wing source to me and probably not very balanced

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Cut and pasted it from the Press Data site which rounds up the up the pick of the articles from last week's papers etc. It'll be from the Spectator most likely or perhaps the Telegraph or Mail, so yes a very subjective piece. I'm not putting it out there as anything else. I just thought it provided a good insight into the mindset of the PM's camp.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by G B Young

A decent summation of the PM's strategy:

When Winston Churchill was asked whether Downing Street personnel could have a week’s holiday for Christmas, he declined immediately. It was 1940 and Churchill, “surprised” by the request, explained that he planned to work “continuously”. Staff were only allowed time off to attend Divine Service, and Churchill wished them “a busy Christmas and a frantic New Year”.

He only took eight days’ holiday between the start and end of the war, and even then had cables delivered on at least some of those days, as Andrew Roberts recounts in his wonderful biography. Assistants would go home at 6am, before being back on duty by 10am; Cabinet meetings were routinely held well after midnight. There was a war, and it had to be won.

It is no secret that Boris Johnson admires Churchill: he, too, wrote a paean to the great man, and (perhaps too obviously) would love, in time, to be seen as his 21st-century incarnation, a thought that used to amuse his opponents but now infuriates them.

It would, of course, be preposterous even to begin to equate our present political and constitutional crisis with the Second World War, humanity’s darkest hour. But the No 10 operation’s Stakhanovite work rate, its extreme centralisation of power, its obsession with military history, psychology and thinking, its determination to force the lumbering British state to move more nimbly, all confirm that it is acting as if we, too, were in the midst of a real, existential conflict.

Those who thought that Johnson’s administration would be amateurish, lackadaisical or downright lazy still cannot quite believe how badly they misjudged him. This Government is modelled on a wartime operation, fortunately minus the actual war. The Remainer ultras, used to the defeatism of the May regime, or even the too-clever-by-half, fly-by-the-seat-of-our-pants approach of the Cameron years, have been wrong-footed. They are too angry to think calmly, and are falling into the ever-more complex traps laid for them by Dominic Cummings, Johnson’s chief adviser.

It is impossible to understand the past 24 hours without realising that No 10 genuinely believes that this is a historic “do or die” moment, and not just because of Brexit. It is convinced that it has to work harder, faster and more intelligently than its opponents, leveraging the power of the executive and pushing constitutional conventions to their limits to defeat the enemy. Like the most ruthless of generals, it is prepared to incur losses along the way, and to sacrifice anything or anybody non-essential, in pursuit of the ultimate prize. It is ready to take as many massive risks as necessary, as military leaders must always do in war time.

Hence yesterday’s latest, explosive chess move: it fell well short of proroguing Parliament in the full sense of that term, and was therefore constitutionally proper. But, by reducing the time available to Remainers to overthrow the Government or halt Brexit, it has wreaked havoc with their planning, and driven them into another wild rage.

The reality is that the Boris/Cummings agenda is extraordinarily ambitious, and amounts to the greatest political gamble in recent history. They want to push through a real Brexit, preferably with a massively better deal than May’s; win a majority in Parliament for a Tory party reshaped along Johnsonite lines; destroy Jeremy Corbyn and force the Labour Party back on to the political centre-ground; eliminate the need for the Brexit Party; and recast the country with historic reforms to education, taxation, planning, immigration and economic policy.

For Johnson to pull all of this off would require him not just to win the looming general election but probably to stay in power for a decade, allowing him to emerge as the third great Tory leader of the past 100 years. Whether they like it or not, he is the centre-Right’s last and only chance. He either gets his way, or the Tories will break up and the most socialist Labour Party in our history will seize power, backed by all the Left-wing parties, including the SNP. Under such a nightmare scenario, Brexit would be made to fail disastrously, discrediting the idea entirely, or it would be cancelled.

The next few weeks – and especially next Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday – will thus be the most important period for the future of the UK at least since the Falklands War. Had Lady Thatcher lost, pro-Soviet socialism would have triumphed in Britain. Her victory allowed a capitalist revolution and helped bring about the triumph of the free world. The challenge today is just as great, but the present Prime Minister’s position is objectively far weaker than the Iron Lady’s ever was.

Johnson doesn’t really have a parliamentary majority, and some of his dissidents are fanatics who are willing to let in Corbyn. The May/Hammond strategy has precipitated the destruction of the constitution, with a broken Parliament now ensuring the country is ungovernable. The PM needs to keep enough Remainers on side not to lose a no‑confidence vote, and that requires negotiation with the EU.

But doing so means focusing on the backstop for now, which risks alienating Brexiteers. Boris and Sajid Javid need to work closely on a Budget with massive tax cuts at its heart; the Treasury establishment will try its best to oppose this. Javid must stand firm and prepare the greatest Tory, supply-side Budget in 30 years, even if the deficit increases.

The obstacles are too many to list. If Boris does lose a vote of confidence, will he really be able to delay the election to November? And if Parliament seizes control, will he be able to bypass MPs by dissolving Parliament with Corbyn’s help? Is there any chance of passing any kind of new deal now? Is there any hope that Johnson could win a pre-Brexit election, given that Nigel Farage won’t stand down his troops?

Yet if the past month has taught us anything it is that politics is not like physics: there is no immutable law of gravity. Brilliant political leadership can overcome almost everything – or at least, as he rereads his biography of Churchill, that is what Johnson will be telling himself. Let us hope he is right.

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:sick:

"Had Lady Thatcher lost, pro-Soviet socialism would have triumphed in Britain. Her victory allowed a capitalist revolution and helped bring about the triumph of the free world. "


Tremendous writing, I was making jokes previously about the spirit of Churchill, I didn't realise it's actually the Iron Lady's spirit we are basing our Brexit strategy on :greengrin

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CloudSquall

"Had Lady Thatcher lost, pro-Soviet socialism would have triumphed in Britain. Her victory allowed a capitalist revolution and helped bring about the triumph of the free world. "


Tremendous writing, I was making jokes previously about the spirit of Churchill, I didn't realise it's actually the Iron Lady's spirit we are basing our Brexit strategy on :greengrin

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It's rather worrying that so many people out there read and believe this tripe.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...7a3ac31dc0.jpg


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Banning MPs from standing if they oppose no deal Brexit. This is now "becoming" a totalitarian government. Serious times ahead

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Originally Posted by wpj

Banning MPs from standing if they oppose no deal Brexit. This is now "becoming" a totalitarian government. Serious times ahead

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The Government can't ban MPs for standing for re-election.

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Originally Posted by Future17

The Government can't ban MPs for standing for re-election.

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Yet.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Future17

The Government can't ban MPs for standing for re-election.

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In theory they can by deselection. The party deselects a sitting mp is banning by any other definition.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wpj

Banning MPs from standing if they oppose no deal Brexit. This is now "becoming" a totalitarian government. Serious times ahead

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Smacks of Cummings pulling Johnson's strings

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wpj

Banning MPs from standing if they oppose no deal Brexit. This is now "becoming" a totalitarian government. Serious times ahead

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Both main Westminster parties now have leaders with a history of not toeing the party line prior to being in charge wanting to de-select colleagues who show any sign of independent thought processes.

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Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

In theory they can by deselection. The party deselects a sitting mp is banning by any other definition.

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That doesn't stop them from standing; it just stops them from a standing as the party's nominated candidate.

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Originally Posted by Future17

That doesn't stop them from standing; it just stops them from a standing as the party's nominated candidate.

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This split the Tory vote.

Tory
v
Deselected Tory
v
BREXIT

J

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bristolhibby

This split the Tory vote.

Tory
v
Deselected Tory
v
BREXIT

J

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Yeah, which is one of the reasons it would be a massive gamble for the Tories to proceed in the way that has been rumoured. I think it would cost them seats - maybe not many, but it's not as if they can afford to lose any.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Future17

Yeah, which is one of the reasons it would be a massive gamble for the Tories to proceed in the way that has been rumoured. I think it would cost them seats - maybe not many, but it's not as if they can afford to lose any.

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The remain vote is even more split and people fear Corbyn as much as brexit. I think if Johnson gets a GE then he wins it. Brexit Party May only stand candidates against remain mp’s. And how many of the deselected mo’s will bother to stand as independents?
If we go to a GE the Johnson and no deal brexit will triumph.


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

If we go to a GE the Johnson and no deal brexit will triumph.

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:agree: Yet Corbyn is all for a GE. He will lose, there will be a No Deal Brexit and his hope of destroying capitalism will be advanced in some small way - is that the long game he is playing so brilliantly? :dunno:

Parliament getting stroppy - get rid of Parliament
Conservative MPs questioning strategy - get rid of them
Inconvenient laws being passed by legislature - ignore them
People protesting in the streets, waving placards, holding up traffic, etc - ?

Was Johnson thinking well ahead when he bought the water cannon for London?

A GE will be a disaster for those who don't want no deal or want another referendum. there's no way Corbyn wins an election. if fact he'll get trounced.

however it may be the best thing for the Labour party in that surely if they can canned he can't continue and they'll have to put someone with a backbone in charge. cooper would be the obvious shout.

it's a bloody mess all over the place.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Just Jimmy

A GE will be a disaster for those who don't want no deal or want another referendum. there's no way Corbyn wins an election. if fact he'll get trounced.

however it may be the best thing for the Labour party in that surely if they can canned he can't continue and they'll have to put someone with a backbone in charge. cooper would be the obvious shout.

it's a bloody mess all over the place.

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Agree. GE means a no deal brexit is a certainty.


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Attachment 22473


keep em coming

Brexit Party about to announce a non aggression pact with the Tories.


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

Brexit Party about to announce a non aggression pact with the Tories.


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A Farage Bojo coalition

Marvellous

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

Brexit Party about to announce a non aggression pact with the Tories.


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The pressure will be on Lab+Lib+Green+SNP to do likewise but I think they might well blow it. We shall see.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cabbageandribs1875

Attachment 22473


keep em coming

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That's 11 seats lost for the tories that they must pick up elsewhere

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Cabinet ministers to be told draft legal text on Northern Ireland plan has been drawn up and ready to be introduced

BUT

A source says draft legal text is just the existing protocol with the relevant articles on the backstop crossed out - not exactly a worked up plan

:faf: :fibber:

Statement at 6. Final throw of the dice before announcing a GE?

The Rebel bill has been published. It would make Johnson have to ask for a 3 month extension to end Jan 2020 if he hasn't got a deal by end Oct.

Bojo promising money for everyone

Magic money tree does exist again it appears

Its great that throughout this speech you can hear clearly STOP THE COUP chanting over and over


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Saying he doesn't want an election

Basically saying, pleading with MPs to vote with Govt tomorrow

Pointless really

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Callum_62

Bojo promising money for everyone

Magic money tree does exist again it appears

Its great that throughout this speech you can hear clearly STOP THE COUP chanting over and over

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Confirming that he'll ignore any inconvenient law passed this week.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Callum_62

Bojo promising money for everyone

Magic money tree does exist again it appears

Its great that throughout this speech you can hear clearly STOP THE COUP chanting over and over


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https://twitter.com/StuartWilksHeeg/...544066561?s=19

Are we all buttoned up the back?

Did we forget the decade of austerity?

Where has all this money come from?

J

Attachment 22476

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Originally Posted by cabbageandribs1875

Attachment 22476

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https://www.scotsman.com/news/politi...ases-1-4995689


The twists and turns in this saga are now compulsive viewing/reading. Best Soap Ever!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens

The pressure will be on Lab+Lib+Green+SNP to do likewise but I think they might well blow it. We shall see.

---

I am actually more confident about a left coalition than I was a day or two ago but I am no expert and there will be much complexity and nuance to sort anything out.

It needs Corbyn to step aside and let someone like Cooper or the like, come forward. She isn’t anethema to the Momentum entryists, she shouldn’t be anathema to the unions, she shouldn’t be anethama to any Labour Party member unless they are a complete dick who is living in the past.

If Jeremy isn’t willing to do the right thing then god help us. There is a potential for coalition and it could be Yvette Cooper or Jo Swinson, and my god, it would be a million times better than Johnson or Corbyn.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mibbes Aye

I am actually more confident about a left coalition than I was a day or two ago but I am no expert and there will be much complexity and nuance to sort anything out.

It needs Corbyn to step aside and let someone like Cooper or the like, come forward. She isn’t anethema to the Momentum entryists, she shouldn’t be anathema to the unions, she shouldn’t be anethama to any Labour Party member unless they are a complete dick who is living in the past.

If Jeremy isn’t willing to do the right thing then god help us. There is a potential for coalition and it could be Yvette Cooper or Jo Swinson, and my god, it would be a million times better than Johnson or Corbyn.

---

Cooper as Labour leader would deliver a 100 seat majority.


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Does the Labour constitution allow anyone other than party leader to be PM?

If there was an election tomorrow (or IN October) I'd struggle to know who to vote for. I voted Labour last time out in the general election but given their utterly hopeless non position in Brexit I don't think I could do so again. I think I'd go with my gut and give my vote back to the SNP.

In Scotland, the SNP is the most remain way to vote.


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If Boris Johnson tried to get a vote for a general election through parliament after parliament vote for the 3 month extension, would it not make sense to vote it down. Thus forcing the extension. I know that he would try to refuse to implement the extension but the EU would then know what they are dealing with.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

If Boris Johnson tried to get a vote for a general election through parliament after parliament vote for the 3 month extension, would it not make sense to vote it down. Thus forcing the extension. I know that he would try to refuse to implement the extension but the EU would then know what they are dealing with.

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Absolutely it would make sense. Labour would be mad to take the bait and allow Johnson to dictate the timing of an election at a time they are behind in the polls. Corbyn doesn’t strike me as being that smart though.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

Absolutely it would make sense. Labour would be mad to take the bait and allow Johnson to dictate the timing of an election at a time they are behind in the polls. Corbyn doesn’t strike me as being that smart though.

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Not up to Corbyn. Two thirds needed for a GE. If enough Labour MPs spot the obvious trap then there won’t be one.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

Absolutely it would make sense. Labour would be mad to take the bait and allow Johnson to dictate the timing of an election at a time they are behind in the polls. Corbyn doesn’t strike me as being that smart though.

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It's not up to labour though, thank goodness, it's a 2/3rd majority and even some tories have the balls to vote against. Hopefully enough will.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mibbes Aye

I am actually more confident about a left coalition than I was a day or two ago but I am no expert and there will be much complexity and nuance to sort anything out.

It needs Corbyn to step aside and let someone like Cooper or the like, come forward. She isn’t anethema to the Momentum entryists, she shouldn’t be anathema to the unions, she shouldn’t be anethama to any Labour Party member unless they are a complete dick who is living in the past.

If Jeremy isn’t willing to do the right thing then god help us. There is a potential for coalition and it could be Yvette Cooper or Jo Swinson, and my god, it would be a million times better than Johnson or Corbyn.

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The anti-No deal cooperation has been v encouraging but actually standing aside in constituencies to give each other a free run is another matter.

The Telegraph’s Europe guy, Peter Foster (who despite his employer has done a stellar job of reporting Brexit has a big thread on twitter tonight.

He has whitehall sources confirming that the govt has no intention of trying to negotiate. They’re just running down the clock and will try and use the October EU summit to get mini deals to mitigate no deal (an idea aka “managed no deal” and repeatedly ruled out by the EU).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

In Scotland, the SNP is the most remain way to vote.


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A general election just now would likely see the SNP return to 2015 levels of seats, essentially ensuring the key battleground would be south of the border where, assuming Farage would stand down his troops (except perhaps in leave-voting Labour areas) the Tories would be confident of a pretty commanding victory.

As somebody else has said, the hapless Corbyn would need to make way for a new leader for them to have any sort of chance.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens

The anti-No deal cooperation has been v encouraging but actually standing aside in constituencies to give each other a free run is another matter.

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Yep, true. Won’t happen with Milne etc. Could happen with Umunna etc.

I do realise Umunna isn’t everyone’s cup of tea. I do realise he is the potential broker to bring Lab and Lib together

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mibbes Aye

I do realise Umunna isn’t everyone’s cup of tea.

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Labour would lose their core Labour support in place of soft tories. Labour would cease to exist as a political ideology.

Rumours that Labour now won't support a GE at this time until a no deal brexit has been taken off the table via legislation. If that happens and Boris doesn't get his 2/3rds majority needed for a GE then he could be the shortest PM in history

Boris (or more likely the "unelected beaurocrat" Dominic Cummings) might have miscalculated this massively.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fife-Hibee

Labour would lose their core Labour support in place of soft tories. Labour would cease to exist as a political ideology.

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Who knows really as Labour are in such a flip flopping mess but in this scenario who are you envisaging them losing their core vote to?




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Despite sensible noises from some shadow cabinet members I think Labour will walk into Johnson’s trap and agree a GE. Corbyn is one of life’s fools.


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Has Corbyn not repeatedly called for a general election throughout the Brexit process? Can he afford to flip flop and whip against voting for one now?

The Tory spin doctors would have a field day with that one. 'He's running scared', 'someone this indecisive can't be PM' and so on.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pretty Boy

Has Corbyn not repeatedly called for a general election throughout the Brexit process? Can he afford to flip flop and whip against voting for one now?

The Tory spin doctors would have a field day with one. 'He' s running scared', 'someone this indecisive can't be PM' and so on.

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Yes - if its made clear the reason why as Johnson could just change the date until after 31st Oct

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Robert Peston on Twitter said that Downing Street has "war gamed" and thinks there is a way around a rejection of a General Election on Wednesday in order to make it happen, whatever that means.

From what I've read also Corbyn wants to go for an election but Labour MPs as a whole want to avoid it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pretty Boy

Has Corbyn not repeatedly called for a general election throughout the Brexit process? Can he afford to flip flop and whip against voting for one now?

The Tory spin doctors would have a field day with that one. 'He's running scared', 'someone this indecisive can't be PM' and so on.

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He has to if he want to stop no deal.


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Soames is now voting against no deal. Big call for the Tories to deselect Churchill’s grandson.


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pretty Boy

Has Corbyn not repeatedly called for a general election throughout the Brexit process? Can he afford to flip flop and whip against voting for one now?

The Tory spin doctors would have a field day with that one. 'He's running scared', 'someone this indecisive can't be PM' and so on.

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I think the spin is pretty straightforward to counter and in fact they already seem to have worked it out:

Quote:

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Sam Coates Sky
@SamCoatesSky


Labour set conditions before backing a general election

Shami Chakrabarti to Sky:

- Only when legislation is "locked down" can we support a GE.
- “Dealing with people "who don't respect the normal rules of the game"
- “Nothing I want more than a GE"

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Latest no 10 plan for an election is apparently a new bill before parliament saying "notwithstanding the fixed term parliament act, we'll have an election on blah".

However, although that avoids the need for 2/3 voting for it, if they can't get the numbers to stop the Rebels tonight, it's not clear where the extra votes to get even a simple majority for that come from?

If the Tory rebs, Labour and the rest of the oppo hold their nerve, Johnson is in Theresa levels of deep ****.

Number of Tory rebs reckoned to be about 20. Should be enough but tonight is yet another cliffhanger. :worried:

Tonight the vote will be about MPs taking control of parliamentary time then in the next couple of days they will try to get legislation through that will force Johnson to ask for an extension if he hasn't got a deal by Oct 19 and then parliament will decide on any terms offered by the EU.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens

Number of Tory rebs reckoned to be about 20. Should be enough but tonight is yet another cliffhanger. :worried:

Tonight the vote will be about MPs taking control of parliamentary time then in the next couple of days they will try to get legislation through that will force Johnson to ask for an extension if he hasn't got a deal by Oct 19 and then parliament will decide on any terms offered by the EU.

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It’s possible they may have over played their hand with the deselection threats. These are people after all and they will have friends within the party. Threatening to sack people is not a great way to win over the party.


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens

Latest no 10 plan for an election is apparently a new bill before parliament saying "notwithstanding the fixed term parliament act, we'll have an election on blah".

However, although that avoids the need for 2/3 voting for it, if they can't get the numbers to stop the Rebels tonight, it's not clear where the extra votes to get even a simple majority for that come from?

If the Tory rebs, Labour and the rest of the oppo hold their nerve, Johnson is in Theresa levels of deep ****.

---

Any new bill would be amendable though so a no-deal block could be added on.


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

It’s possible they may have over played their hand with the deselection threats. These are people after all and they will have friends within the party. Threatening to sack people is not a great way to win over the party.


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I think suspending parliament and denying it was to frustrate opposition to a no-deal, the deselection threats and the hint that the Government may ignore new legislation has been a watershed for many on both sides of the divide.

I watched the debate on Channel 5 last night about trust in politicians and it was quite revealing. Basically they asked a series of questions on the public's opinion of MPs and the outcome was that the mistrust of MPs is in the gutter, and at an all time low.

Against that backdrop, in the first session David Davies (ex Brexit Minister) was on the panel when the host posed a question to ~100 in the audience (selected 50/50 Brexiteers & Remainers). The question was; put your hand up if you think Boris Johnson was telling the truth when he said that the suspension of parliament was not an attempt at frustrating opposition to a no deal Brexit? - not one person put their hand up. The host then asked David Davies if he thought Boris was lying, and he gave some meandering answer which no-one understood but basically said no he wasn't lying. The derision from the audience was obvious.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

Any new bill would be amendable though so a no-deal block could be added on.


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Yes, good point.

Re. the 2/3 majority needed for a GE.

Latest theory doing the rounds is Boris himself could call a no confidence vote where a simple majority is needed. I'm assuming the tory vote would just whip behind that?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BroxburnHibee

Re. the 2/3 majority needed for a GE.

Latest theory doing the rounds is Boris himself could call a no confidence vote where a simple majority is needed. I'm assuming the tory vote would just whip behind that?

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I think the even latester theory is a special one off bill to name the date. The problem for Johnson with a VONC he calls himself is that there is a 14 day period where anyone else can try and form a government.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BroxburnHibee

Re. the 2/3 majority needed for a GE.

Latest theory doing the rounds is Boris himself could call a no confidence vote where a simple majority is needed. I'm assuming the tory vote would just whip behind that?

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Interesting. Peston was saying that they had a mechanism to go to an election with just a simple majority but he didn’t know what that was. Surely a vote of no confidence loss would just mean someone else would have to have a go at forming a government - Corbyn in the first instance.

Tory MPs loyal to Johnson have been briefed that in all media engagements they should refer to the Benn extension bill as "Corbyn's Surrender Bill".

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens

Tory MPs loyal to Johnson have been briefed that in all media engagements they should refer to the Benn extension bill as "Corbyn's Surrender Bill".

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Actually quite effective that - putting politics to one side - Tony Blair’s government were brilliantly consistent with language..remembering “education, education, education” ?? Repetitive language creates impact across large populations of people ....you know what they stand for ...

The opposition need to do similar ...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bigwheel

Actually quite effective that - putting politics to one side - Tony Blair’s government were brilliantly consistent with language..remembering “education, education, education” ?? Repetitive language creates impact across large populations of people ....you know what they stand for ...

The opposition need to do similar ...

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This is so fast moving that there won’t be time to repeat it that often. There will be other bills along before it has time to bed in.


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by bigwheel

Actually quite effective that - putting politics to one side - Tony Blair’s government were brilliantly consistent with language..remembering “education, education, education” ?? Repetitive language creates impact across large populations of people ....you know what they stand for ...

The opposition need to do similar ...

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And deliver it too. I did 28 schools in 3 years under the Blair government before I moved to urban regen and delivering 1000s of new homes.

I did more under Blair than any other time in my career. The last 9 years have been so frustrating in contrast.

Tory MP Philip Lee crosses the floor to sit with the Lib Dems. That's the Tory/DUP majority gone.

He did it while Johnson was speaking. Top trolling!