Catalunya

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cataplana

I'm not entirely sure, but I think the Spanish constitution is less than 50 years old. From what I read recently, there are a lot of similarities with the Catalan situation and ours.

What is strikingly different is that Spain is not a United Kingdom like ours. Scotland and Ireland entered it as settled sovereign nations, one by choice one by a more difficult route.

There is an act of union that clearly charts that merger etc. I'm sure Scottish nats can describe this much more accurately than me. From what I can see, there is no Spanish equivalent, and what constitutes Catalonia has been fluid over the centuries.

Allowing the Catalans a referendum opens the door to even less solid "nations" such as the Basques to agitate for seperation.

---

The Basques are arguably more solid than the Catalans and both are arguably more solidly "nations" in the old ethnic/linguistic sense than Scotland is, although they don't have as simple a history as Scotland's several centuries as an independent kingdom. But delving into that would require its own thread I think!

The Spanish constitution dates from the transition to democracy following the death of Franco in the 70s. The context of that was things had to move very carefully given they had a restless military in a state of semi-alarm over giving up power. And that military was still led by Franco's civil war and aftermath Generals. No idle threat either, there was an attempted coup in 1981 featuring gunfire in the chamber of the Spanish parliament. So a constitution involving self determination for Basques and Catalans was never even remotely on the cards and in fact their constitution enshrines the "indissoluble unity of Spain".

The Basques and Catalans did get "autonomous communities" and the devolution has increased bit by bit over the years. The current Catalan movement for independence really got going following the conversion of the formerly devolutionist-but-more-powers centre-right Catalan party, the CDC, to independence. This happened after they agreed a new devolution settlement with the Spanish government but it was ruled unconstitutional and struck down by the Spanish courts in an action brought by the PP (Spanish right wing party with its roots among Franco's followers)*. There is a somewhat more cynical explanation in that some of the CDC's leading lights were at the centre of a corruption scandal at the same time, and this was a handy diversion. Both things are probably true.

The Spanish parties (PSOE, PP and C's) are now trying to outdo each other as more hardline anti-independence than each other. There is no sign of a political solution unless the Catalan people give up on pro-Indy parties.

* our equivalent would be the SNP agreeing a devolution settlement with a UK lab govt, the Tories going to court to get it stopped and the courts ruling it unlawful.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Smartie

Is the issue not that so many of them don’t want a vote?

---

Polling on Catalan indy is roughly 50-50 and has been like that for a few years.

Polling on should there be a referendum is much more settled - 70-80% regularly in favour.

Example:

https://www.ara.cat/2018/12/15/polit...21_651x957.png

Q - Are you in favour of an agreed referendum on the independence of Catalonia?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ronaldo7

I've seen riot police hiding from hails of Stones being thrown, I've also seen innocents being brutally beaten by the police. If they dress as storm troopers, don't be surprised if they are called out as such.

---

Your language suggests a rather romantic view of the events.

Storm troopers is something I associate with the SS. A target inappropriate comparison to the police force of a democratic country, and your own reaction to selected images from our state broadcaster.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens

The Basques are arguably more solid than the Catalans and both are arguably more solidly "nations" in the old ethnic/linguistic sense than Scotland is, although they don't have as simple a history as Scotland's several centuries as an independent kingdom. But delving into that would require its own thread I think!

The Spanish constitution dates from the transition to democracy following the death of Franco in the 70s. The context of that was things had to move very carefully given they had a restless military in a state of semi-alarm over giving up power. And that military was still led by Franco's civil war and aftermath Generals. No idle threat either, there was an attempted coup in 1981 featuring gunfire in the chamber of the Spanish parliament. So a constitution involving self determination for Basques and Catalans was never even remotely on the cards and in fact their constitution enshrines the "indissoluble unity of Spain".

The Basques and Catalans did get "autonomous communities" and the devolution has increased bit by bit over the years. The current Catalan movement for independence really got going following the conversion of the formerly devolutionist-but-more-powers centre-right Catalan party, the CDC, to independence. This happened after they agreed a new devolution settlement with the Spanish government but it was ruled unconstitutional and struck down by the Spanish courts in an action brought by the PP (Spanish right wing party with its roots among Franco's followers)*. There is a somewhat more cynical explanation in that some of the CDC's leading lights were at the centre of a corruption scandal at the same time, and this was a handy diversion. Both things are probably true.

The Spanish parties (PSOE, PP and C's) are now trying to outdo each other as more hardline anti-independence than each other. There is no sign of a political solution unless the Catalan people give up on pro-Indy parties.

* our equivalent would be the SNP agreeing a devolution settlement with a UK lab govt, the Tories going to court to get it stopped and the courts ruling it unlawful.

---

That's different from what I read (very limited one book) buy thanks for your view.

Basque country seems to be a nation in people's heads, based pretty much on a common language.

Catalonia has a lot of similarities to Scotland, I accept. I also accept a referendum might be the answer.

I don't buy into a narrative of Madrid oppressing Catalonia though. Although I accept some regimes have been less tolerant than others since the 70s.

The place with the greatest claim on nationhood is Galicia, which seems content. That's another story though.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cataplana

That's different from what I read (very limited one book) buy thanks for your view.

Basque country seems to be a nation in people's heads, based pretty much on a common language.

Catalonia has a lot of similarities to Scotland, I accept. I also accept a referendum might be the answer.

I don't buy into a narrative of Madrid oppressing Catalonia though. Although I accept some regimes have been less tolerant than others since the 70s.

The place with the greatest claim on nationhood is Galicia, which seems content. That's another story though.

---

The language around these concepts is often confused but what I meant was the Basques are a nation in exactly the sense you describe, a body of people who identify themselves as Basque based on things they share. In their case, culture, history and, to a much larger extent than in Scotland, language and ethnicity.

As opposed to the use of "nation" to mean what I would define as "state" - an internationally recognised self-governing entity that is dealt with at the same level by other states. States in this sense can contain multiple nations.

And a "nation-state" which is the latter but has come into being to be a state more or less exclusively for one particular nation.

Anyway, all that aside, if you mean the Basques claim to have a history of political independence from Castilian Spain - then look up the Fueros, basically they had an agreement with the Spanish kings to have self-government, no tax to Spain and didn't have to participate in Spanish wars but they did recognise the Spanish king as a feudal overlord kind of thing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens

The language around these concepts is often confused but what I meant was the Basques are a nation in exactly the sense you describe, a body of people who identify themselves as Basque based on things they share. In their case, culture, history and, to a much larger extent than in Scotland, language and ethnicity.

As opposed to the use of "nation" to mean what I would define as "state" - an internationally recognised self-governing entity that is dealt with at the same level by other states. States in this sense can contain multiple nations.

And a "nation-state" which is the latter but has come into being to be a state more or less exclusively for one particular nation.

Anyway, all that aside, if you mean the Basques claim to have a history of political independence from Castilian Spain - then look up the Fueros, basically they had an agreement with the Spanish kings to have self-government, no tax to Spain and didn't have to participate in Spanish wars but they did recognise the Spanish king as a feudal overlord kind of thing.

---

I think we are slightly fortunate in the UK that there was an act of union that more, or less, defined what the nations of the UK are. Spain seems a much more complex situation, and one that it is sometimes dangerous to make direct comparisons with.

From where I stand, Scotland has a more or less direct line of monrachy from before the end of the first millenium. That and other things make it much easier to say what we want to get back to. These things see much more fluid in "Spain."

It would be nice for Scotland to lend support to other nations, after we gain independence, but I can see why the SNP are wary of being too closely associated with a constitutional dispute in another country, at this point.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cataplana

I think we are slightly fortunate in the UK that there was an act of union that more, or less, defined what the nations of the UK are. Spain seems a much more complex situation, and one that it is sometimes dangerous to make direct comparisons with.

From where I stand, Scotland has a more or less direct line of monrachy from before the end of the first millenium. That and other things make it much easier to say what we want to get back to. These things see much more fluid in "Spain."

It would be nice for Scotland to lend support to other nations, after we gain independence, but I can see why the SNP are wary of being too closely associated with a constitutional dispute in another country, at this point.

---

"We want to get back to"?

Speak for yourself, if you don't mind. You are in the minority!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cataplana

I think we are slightly fortunate in the UK that there was an act of union that more, or less, defined what the nations of the UK are. Spain seems a much more complex situation, and one that it is sometimes dangerous to make direct comparisons with.

From where I stand, Scotland has a more or less direct line of monrachy from before the end of the first millenium. That and other things make it much easier to say what we want to get back to. These things see much more fluid in "Spain."

It would be nice for Scotland to lend support to other nations, after we gain independence, but I can see why the SNP are wary of being too closely associated with a constitutional dispute in another country, at this point.

---

I see what you mean. I don't think Scotland should be an independent country because it used to be one but I agree it makes the constitutional upheaval easier. I also agree with your last point. We actually help Catalan independistas more in the long run by providing an example of a successful separation that leads to 2 happier successor states.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by pollution

"We want to get back to"?

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by pollution

Speak for yourself, if you don't mind. You are in the minority!

---

Well that's another story, and you are correct. I confused Scottish Nationalism, with Scotland. Which is also something that is possible when we look at Catalonia.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens

I see what you mean. I don't think Scotland should be an independent country because it used to be one but I agree it makes the constitutional upheaval easier. I also agree with your last point. We actually help Catalan independistas more in the long run by providing an example of a successful separation that leads to 2 happier successor states.

---

Did we just come to an agreement by sharing information and considering what we learned? What a radical approach to forming opinions!

It will never catch on. :greengrin

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ronaldo7

It would certainly even it up a bit. Maybe start with removing the rubber bullets, and water cannon though. 👍

---

How does the policing of this protest compare to the policing of similar events in the rest of Spain?

What are the criteria which allow the Guardia Civil to use rubber bullets and water cannon?

Were these adhered to, and were those injured given fair warning of their deployment?

In the case of officers who exceeded the boundaries of what is allowed, have any charges been brought, or has there been any enquiry or investigation into brutality?

How many complaints of brutality have been raised?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cataplana

Did we just come to an agreement by sharing information and considering what we learned? What a radical approach to forming opinions!

It will never catch on. :greengrin

---

Not the Holy Ground way! :grr::wink:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cataplana

Your language suggests a rather romantic view of the events.

Storm troopers is something I associate with the SS. A target inappropriate comparison to the police force of a democratic country, and your own reaction to selected images from our state broadcaster.

---

You're idea of romance is rather different to mine, however I'll leave that for now.

I've seen the outputs from our own media, and those in Spain, and believe me, the beatings are more prominent from the state.

Storm troopers were also know to have fought against the force, for evil.

✌

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ronaldo7

You're idea of romance is rather different to mine, however I'll leave that for now.

I've seen the outputs from our own media, and those in Spain, and believe me, the beatings are more prominent from the state.

Storm troopers were also know to have fought against the force, for evil.

✌

---

Yeah, because Star Wars is a real thing. :confused:

I meant romance as is in story, as in fantasy. So far, I have yet to see any real evidence from you, other than relating the events to a science fiction story, about good and evil.

I think there are many shades of grey in what is happening in Catalonia.

Live long and prosper.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens

Not the Holy Ground way! :grr::wink:

---

I couldn't possibly comment. The fear of reprisals is far too great. :greengrin

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cataplana

Yeah, because Star Wars is a real thing. :confused:

I meant romance as is in story, as in fantasy. So far, I have yet to see any real evidence from you, other than relating the events to a science fiction story, about good and evil.

I think there are many shades of grey in what is happening in Catalonia.

Live long and prosper.

---

If you want evidence, google is your friend, theirs' loads of information on there of police beatings, and also the rising of the people, demonstrating against it.

FWIW, I'd just like the people to determine their own future, without the possibility of imprisonment. Not much to ask.

As has been evidenced on this thread and others, re Catalunya, the people want a referendum, what's wrong with giving them it?

Peace by with you.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ronaldo7

If you want evidence, google is your friend, theirs' loads of information on there of police beatings, and also the rising of the people, demonstrating against it.

FWIW, I'd just like the people to determine their own future, without the possibility of imprisonment. Not much to ask.

As has been evidenced on this thread and others, re Catalunya, the people want a referendum, what's wrong with giving them it?

Peace by with you.

---

The basic rule of debate is that it is for the person making a point to supply the evidence to back it up. You have been very deft at avoiding questions about your perception that the Guardia Civil have acted unreasonably in this case. I put some direct questions to you, which I would have thought you would be able to answer easily given your firm view of what happened.

I think it is entirely a matter for the Spanish and Catalan people whether they have a referendum. I can't see why they shouldn't, but I don't know enough to say that they should.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cataplana

Its a complex situation, and needs a bit of balance. For example, is this any different from how the Guardia Civil polices protest in other cities.

At the end of the day, whether we like it or not, the law was broken. I would be very unhappy about the Catalan Assembly, or Spanish Parliament wading into Scottish issues.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cataplana

The basic rule of debate is that it is for the person making a point to supply the evidence to back it up. You have been very deft at avoiding questions about your perception that the Guardia Civil have acted unreasonably in this case. I put some direct questions to you, which I would have thought you would be able to answer easily given your firm view of what happened.

I think it is entirely a matter for the Spanish and Catalan people whether they have a referendum. I can't see why they shouldn't, but I don't know enough to say that they should.

---

This is the first post where you quoted me.

Sorry, I didn't see any questions. I thought you were making a statement.

I was actually asking another poster why he thought Clara Ponsati wouldn't be put in jail.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ronaldo7

This is the first post where you quoted me.

Sorry, I didn't see any questions. I thought you were making a statement.

I was actually asking another poster why he thought Clara Ponsati wouldn't be put in jail.

---

My apologies. I think answers to those questions would be pretty important in deciding whether this is about oppression or not.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cataplana

My apologies. I think answers to those questions would be pretty important in deciding whether this is about oppression or not.

---

Apology accepted.

Still waiting to hear why Clara wouldn't end up in jail, as that's where the rest of her colleagues have ended up.

Maybe it's the lack of competence from the Spanish authorities.

https://www.catalannews.com/politics...ormer-minister

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ronaldo7

Apology accepted.

Still waiting to hear why Clara wouldn't end up in jail, as that's where the rest of her colleagues have ended up.

Maybe it's the lack of competence from the Spanish authorities.

https://www.catalannews.com/politics...ormer-minister

---

That seems to be a common theme in this. I would think if she goes back she'll go to jail, just going on what happened to the rest.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cataplana

That seems to be a common theme in this. I would think if she goes back she'll go to jail, just going on what happened to the rest.

---

I agree, that's why I found it strange that someone living in Spain would think differently. Maybe they know something we don't.

Amer Anwar won't let her down.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ronaldo7

I agree, that's why I found it strange that someone living in Spain would think differently. Maybe they know something we don't.

Amer Anwar won't let her down.

---

I would expect somebody who lives in Spain to know more. Without an in depth knowledge we can't fully appreciate the shades of grey.

One thing that is guaranteed is that Anwar won't let himself down. We will not be allowed to miss the fact he is involved.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cataplana

I would expect somebody who lives in Spain to know more. Without an in depth knowledge we can't fully appreciate the shades of grey.

One thing that is guaranteed is that Anwar won't let himself down. We will not be allowed to miss the fact he is involved.

---

I suppose it depends if the person immerses themselves in the country, or just goes down to the "ex pat" boozer, and bowling clubs.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ronaldo7

I suppose it depends if the person immerses themselves in the country, or just goes down to the "ex pat" boozer, and bowling clubs.

---

Very true, there's a book I'm meaning to read, The British on the Costa del Sol. Most ex pats tend to keep to a limited circle of friends, and don't learn the language.

Democracy in action

BREAKING: A majority of MPs at Madrid's Assembly have voted in favour of banning Catalan and Basque pro-independence parties.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cataplana

Very true, there's a book I'm meaning to read, The British on the Costa del Sol. Most ex pats tend to keep to a limited circle of friends, and don't learn the language.

---

I have friends who live in a gated golf community in Murcia. I think that they fit the profile. He works in oil exploration satellite communications which he can do anywhere.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

I have friends who live in a gated golf community in Murcia. I think that they fit the profile. He works in oil exploration satellite communications which he can do anywhere.

---

Its pretty obvious to anyone who visits in the winter. You cringe at them in small shops braying in English at the owner.

Only the British can talk about foreigners when they are living in another country, and mean the citizens of the place they are staying in .

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cataplana

Its pretty obvious to anyone who visits in the winter. You cringe at them in small shops braying in English at the owner.

Only the British can talk about foreigners when they are living in another country, and mean the citizens of the place they are staying in .

---

To be honest the wife, who I know better than him has had a revelation living in Spain. Here in Scotland a meal out comprised going to macdonalds, and she only 'cooked' in a microwave. Now she actually goes out and buys fresh ingredients and cooks from scratch.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cataplana

Your language suggests a rather romantic view of the events.

Storm troopers is something I associate with the SS. A target inappropriate comparison to the police force of a democratic country, and your own reaction to selected images from our state broadcaster.

---

The term Storm Trooper predates the Nazis and the SS by about 20 years. Storm Troopers were first conceived as an idea by both the French and Germans around 1915. The idea was to use small groups of highly trained and mobile soldiers commanded by a corporal and tasked to attack individual targets along and behind the enemy trench lines. The idea had it's roots in the Boer War where small groups of Boers effectively prevailed over the British close order infantry assault, which was becoming outdated due to advancements in weapon technology. New lighter and faster loading weapons allowed for new tactics meaning that small groups of soldiers could use firepower to facilitate movement in progress. This tactic was the first breakthrough in breaking through enemy trenches and not the tank like many have been led to believe and is still used in infantry assaults today and was used in combination with tanks in WW2 with great effect by the Germans in their Blitzkrieg.

In 2019 I'd connect the term Storm Trooper with Star Wars and think R7 might be drawing parallels to the body armour worn by riot police and that of the Empire's Storm Troopers.


**** me I do prattle on sometimes, hope I'm not like this in the pub :greengrin