SNP are lying b******s as well !

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Originally Posted by lapsedhibee

Didn't we already try a flat rate council tax, and people didn't like it? IIRC there was actual rioting in Scotland when Thatcher introduced it.

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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

Big fan of the Poll Tax were you?


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When I was typing that I knew the poll tax would be brought up and obviously I’ve heard it wasn’t very popular [emoji3] but I would have been at school so don’t have any real memory of it so have no real sense of how much it would cost me nowadays or if I’m better off with council tax!

I still don’t think for example two pensioners with the same income should pay different amounts for the same service purely based on the value of the house they probably worked hard all their life to pay for but I don’t know what the solution is.

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Originally Posted by hibee

When I was typing that I knew the poll tax would be brought up and obviously I’ve heard it wasn’t very popular [emoji3] but I would have been at school so don’t have any real memory of it so have no real sense of how much it would cost me nowadays or if I’m better off with council tax!

I still don’t think for example two pensioners with the same income should pay different amounts for the same service purely based on the value of the house they probably worked hard all their life to pay for but I don’t know what the solution is.

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I was on a YTS training scheme that paid £27.30 a week and my poll tax was £600 per annum.
Taxing property based on value is done in many countries all over the world. Do you really think a person living in Ravelston Dykes should pay the same as a person in Muirhouse?
The worked hard all their life to pay for argument is nonsense. Do people in small houses not work hard? If this society is good to you and you prosper then you should expect to pay more.


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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

I was on a YTS training scheme that paid £27.30 a week and my poll tax was £600 per annum.

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I can see why people would complain about that, clearly not implemented fairly.

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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

Do you really think a person living in Ravelston Dykes should pay the same as a person in Muirhouse?

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Yes, same council, same services provided.

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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

The worked hard all their life to pay for argument is nonsense. Do people in small houses not work hard? If this society is good to you and you prosper then you should expect to pay more.

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In your opinion it’s nonsense but not in mine, society doesn’t generally give people bigger houses for free.

Of course people in small houses work hard, if two people worked the same job all their life, earned the same, and now have the same income with no savings they should pay the same council tax if the only difference between them is how they chose to spend their own money when they were working.

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Originally Posted by hibee

I can see why people would complain about that, clearly not implemented fairly.



Yes, same council, same services provided.



In your opinion it’s nonsense but not in mine, society doesn’t generally give people bigger houses for free.

Of course people in small houses work hard, if two people worked the same job all their life, earned the same, and now have the same income with no savings they should pay the same council tax if the only difference between them is how they chose to spend their own money when they were working.

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You don’t think a big house with a massive garden and many bathrooms uses more public services? Who cuts all those nice trees up Ravelston Dykes, clears the leaves etc?


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Why is there different levels of income tax when we all use the same police NHS etc. Because in almost every civilised society people realise some can afford more than others to get a livable society for all

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Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

Why is there different levels of income tax when we all use the same police NHS etc. Because in almost every civilised society people realise some can afford more than others to get a livable society for all

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I was about to reply with almost exactly this but seen you’ve beat me to it.

To set a flat rate of council tax for all would increase the amount drastically for those least well off whilst decreasing it drastically for those most well off, so to keep it simple, it’s definitely not the solution.

In the absence of a better solution, maybe just resetting the band based on 2025 values rather than 1991 values would be a good start.

My personal opinion would be a % of the properties value, however not 1% as suggested above. Maybe somewhere between 0.5% - 0.75%.

Both solutions have the issue of how we value so many properties though, and the ongoing issue of keeping it up to date.

Maybe an element of factoring in the number of adult occupants too. We already have the single person discount but arguably a property with 2 adults should also pay less than one with 5.

Finally, students should not be exempt from council tax IMO, simply subject to a discount. They use a the services in the same way as anyone else.

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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

You don’t think a big house with a massive garden and many bathrooms uses more public services? Who cuts all those nice trees up Ravelston Dykes, clears the leaves etc?


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Fact is though that the vast majority of the council costs come from two areas. Education and Social Care.

Arguing over who uses more based on size of house or where they stay is rather pointless.

The Council Tax aka Property taxes are highly effective tax in terms of what percentage is received v expected. It’s also a very stable tax as it’s based on an unmovable asset.

It therefore makes a lot of sense for local councils to levy a property tax.

The problem is that the system has been left to decay to the point that it’s now rather distorted. This has reduced its progressiveness and is clearly now not fit for purpose.

Debate will rage as to what could or should replace it but in the meantime it’s beyond me why they don’t just start by refreshing the valuations and bands to fix some of the existing issues with the existing system.

Done correctly I’m sure that would raise some additional revenue as well as being ‘fairer’.

That would at least buy some time to allow the politicians to finally get around to trying to discuss what might be seen as a sensible replacement (maybe!)

I think the perception of any tax depends to a large extent on how it affects the person paying it and their ability to do so.

It is entirely possible in theory to take an altruistic approach to determining equitable taxation, but harder to maintain that altruism, when its effects really begin to bite on you.

That ability to meet taxation changes through the years for a number of reasons, e.g.:

Starting work on a low salary with little free income

Career progression providing more free income

Cohabitating with spouse providing yet more free income

Children coming along obliterating free income

Gradual Recovery of free income

Peak Free income years post children

Retirement.

As someone in the latter category, I have experienced all these things with some easier to navigate through than others.

I would though say the 2 most difficult are the children obliterating free income stage and Retirement.

As most others will have done at our stage of life we worked bloody hard over 40 plus years to afford the house we currently live in.

We now pay more in Council Tax than our highest-ever mortgage payment at a time when we have lower income than in the last 20 years and little ability to do anything to change that.

We love our house, but are now in a race to the bottom to see whether either we or our Retirement Income/Savings run out first.

I also think that one of the great irony's is that moving down does not release nearly as much cash as you may expect by the time fees, taxes and the need to bring the smaller house up to standard are factored in.

If it is the latter we will need to sell and move down and that doesn't seem right to me, especially at a time when our consumption of local authority provided services is likely at an all time low. Fully accept though that paying as you use said services is completely unworkable so we are where we are on that point.

I am in favour of progressive taxation, but it seems that that only works one way (in an upwards direction) and there is no counterpart to that when your ability to pay lessens on anything other than Income Tax and NI, that is you earn less so you pay less or in the case of NI nothing.

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Originally Posted by Paul1642

I was about to reply with almost exactly this but seen you’ve beat me to it.

To set a flat rate of council tax for all would increase the amount drastically for those least well off whilst decreasing it drastically for those most well off, so to keep it simple, it’s definitely not the solution.

In the absence of a better solution, maybe just resetting the band based on 2025 values rather than 1991 values would be a good start.

My personal opinion would be a % of the properties value, however not 1% as suggested above. Maybe somewhere between 0.5% - 0.75%.

Both solutions have the issue of how we value so many properties though, and the ongoing issue of keeping it up to date.

Maybe an element of factoring in the number of adult occupants too. We already have the single person discount but arguably a property with 2 adults should also pay less than one with 5.

Finally, students should not be exempt from council tax IMO, simply subject to a discount. They use a the services in the same way as anyone else.

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Aren’t we trying to get older people to downsize? Giving a discount for one person living in a 5 bed house seems counter productive. It’s encouraging an inefficient use of resources.
Happy for Students to have it free because their source of income is borrowing from the govt. It would be a bit mad to tax them on money they have borrowed.


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Originally Posted by BSEJVT

I think the perception of any tax depends to a large extent on how it affects the person paying it and their ability to do so.

It is entirely possible in theory to take an altruistic approach to determining equitable taxation, but harder to maintain that altruism, when its effects really begin to bite on you.

That ability to meet taxation changes through the years for a number of reasons, e.g.:

Starting work on a low salary with little free income

Career progression providing more free income

Cohabitating with spouse providing yet more free income

Children coming along obliterating free income

Gradual Recovery of free income

Peak Free income years post children

Retirement.

As someone in the latter category, I have experienced all these things with some easier to navigate through than others.

I would though say the 2 most difficult are the children obliterating free income stage and Retirement.

As most others will have done at our stage of life we worked bloody hard over 40 plus years to afford the house we currently live in.

We now pay more in Council Tax than our highest-ever mortgage payment at a time when we have lower income than in the last 20 years and little ability to do anything to change that.

We love our house, but are now in a race to the bottom to see whether either we or our Retirement Income/Savings run out first.

I also think that one of the great irony's is that moving down does not release nearly as much cash as you may expect by the time fees, taxes and the need to bring the smaller house up to standard are factored in.

If it is the latter we will need to sell and move down and that doesn't seem right to me, especially at a time when our consumption of local authority provided services is likely at an all time low. Fully accept though that paying as you use said services is completely unworkable so we are where we are on that point.

I am in favour of progressive taxation, but it seems that that only works one way (in an upwards direction) and there is no counterpart to that when your ability to pay lessens on anything other than Income Tax and NI, that is you earn less so you pay less or in the case of NI nothing.

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LBTT should not be levied on people downsizing. IMHO.


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Someone above made a very good point.

Change the system so it’s based on the property value. Charge a certain percentage every year. If you live in a £100k flat or a £2 million mansion then you pay proportionally.

Edinburgh especially must be worth billions in properties, if you can afford a big house you can afford a bigger council tax.

Implemenring it may be tricky as you’d maybe need your house valued every year but I’m sure there would be a way to do it.

Seems fair and sensible to me

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Originally Posted by Hibs4185

Someone above made a very good point.

Change the system so it’s based on the property value. Charge a certain percentage every year. If you live in a £100k flat or a £2 million mansion then you pay proportionally.

Edinburgh especially must be worth billions in properties, if you can afford a big house you can afford a bigger council tax.

Implemenring it may be tricky as you’d maybe need your house valued every year but I’m sure there would be a way to do it.

Seems fair and sensible to me

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A new valuation every 5 years should be enough.


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Originally Posted by Hibs4185

Change the system so it’s based on the property value. Charge a certain percentage every year. If you live in a £100k flat or a £2 million mansion then you pay proportionally.

Edinburgh especially must be worth billions in properties, if you can afford a big house you can afford a bigger council tax.

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So if the value of my home increases through no action of mine, I end up paying more CT even though my own circumstances - and income - may have stayed the same? If the increase in property values continues, I may end up not being able to afford to live in my own home?

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Originally Posted by grunt

So if the value of my home increases through no action of mine, I end up paying more CT even though my own circumstances - and income - may have stayed the same? If the increase in property values continues, I may end up not being able to afford to live in my own home?

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The govt can adjust every year how much of a percentage it takes. If prices are rising they can drop the percentage.
But if the price of your home has gone up by the govt putting in a new tram line near you then of course you will be expected to pay more because you have made a gain at the publics expense.

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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

The govt can adjust every year how much of a percentage it takes. If prices are rising they can drop the percentage.
But if the price of your home has gone up by the govt putting in a new tram line near you then of course you will be expected to pay more because you have made a gain at the publics expense.

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It would also perhaps incentivize people to downsize who have spare bedrooms. Things aren't sustainable as is a generation comfortable with huge homes and another generation coming through that will never own a home so pay expensive rents and were back to families sharing bedrooms, sometimes adults with their kids


David Milner
@djjmilner
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20h
The average age of a median homebuyer in the UK is now 56.

56! This is up, staggeringly, from 45 in 2021

In 1981 the median age was 31

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Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

David Milner
@djjmilner
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20h
The average age of a median homebuyer in the UK is now 56.

56! This is up, staggeringly, from 45 in 2021

In 1981 the median age was 31

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"The average age of a median homebuyer ..." is meaningless twaddle.

And those figures are from a US publication, not UK.

It's complete bollocks.

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Originally Posted by grunt

"The average age of a median homebuyer ..." is meaningless twaddle.

And those figures are from a US publication, not UK.

It's complete bollocks.

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It's meaningless on its own but the trends are clear there is a home ownership crisis for the youth.

Between 2006 and 2024, the proportion of 25- to 34-year-olds living with their parents increased a third from 13% to 18% 450,000 more

The average age of a first time buyer was 26 in 1997 it's now 35

In 1998 35% of 25 to 35 yo's it was 55 by 2020.

10,360 Scottish kids are counted as homeless up from 6,600 2018, a national disgrace. If people with 400k houses have to pay a bit more to help reduce that number then I can live with that

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Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

It's meaningless on its own but the trends are clear there is a home ownership crisis for the youth.

Between 2006 and 2024, the proportion of 25- to 34-year-olds living with their parents increased a third from 13% to 18% 450,000 more

The average age of a first time buyer was 26 in 1997 it's now 35

In 1998 35% of 25 to 35 yo's it was 55 by 2020.

10,360 Scottish kids are counted as homeless up from 6,600 2018, a national disgrace. If people with 400k houses have to pay a bit more to help reduce that number then I can live with that

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It's not so much people with £400k houses, there's huge amounts of tax left on the table for people with properties above £600 - £700k. People with a £700k property pay around £3.3k, people with a £2m property pay the same £3.3k. We need a completely new system or at the very least we need revaluations and more bands.

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Originally Posted by Andy Bee

It's not so much people with £400k houses, there's huge amounts of tax left on the table for people with properties above £600 - £700k. People with a £700k property pay around £3.3k, people with a £2m property pay the same £3.3k. We need a completely new system or at the very least we need revaluations and more bands.

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Take property out of the equation and introduce a local income tax?

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Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

Take property out of the equation and introduce a local income tax?

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I'd almost be in favour of that, were it not for the fact that the richest in society usually earn their money outside of the PAYE system.

They already avoid paying a fair share of their earnings in taxes through various schemes, such as income earned through companies based abroad and other such wheezes. This would just give them another get out clause.

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Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

Take property out of the equation and introduce a local income tax?

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Then you are taxing work not wealth?


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Originally Posted by Keith_M

I'd almost be in favour of that, were it not for the fact that the richest in society usually earn their money outside of the PAYE system.

They already avoid paying a fair share of their earnings in taxes through various schemes, such as income earned through companies based abroad and other such wheezes. This would just give them another get out clause.

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Yip. You can’t hide property.


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Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

10,360 Scottish kids are counted as homeless up from 6,600 2018, a national disgrace. If people with 400k houses have to pay a bit more to help reduce that number then I can live with that

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That’s the price of a normal family home these days, families living in these houses are not millionaires and shouldn’t be responsible for other people’s kids.

They should be going after the millionaires with multiple homes more and leaving normal families alone as they’re already paying more than enough tax.

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Originally Posted by hibee

That’s the price of a normal family home these days, families living in these houses are not millionaires and shouldn’t be responsible for other people’s kids.

They should be going after the millionaires with multiple homes more and leaving normal families alone as they’re already paying more than enough tax.

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Everyone wants other people to pay. I pay more in Scotland than I would in England and I think I definitely pay too little. Of course tax should be top heavy but everyone including "normal families" should pay what in reality would be a tiny bit more for Scottish kids not to be homeless

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Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

Everyone wants other people to pay. I pay more in Scotland than I would in England and I think I definitely pay too little. Of course tax should be top heavy but everyone including "normal families" should pay what in reality would be a tiny bit more for Scottish kids not to be homeless

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10931 homes worth £1m+ in Scotland according to Savills, an eye watering 71% increase since 2019 and a lot in Edinburgh. Granted a lot will be homes already existing with the values going up but it's still pretty shocking that CT is calculated with the highest value band homes being £212k.

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Originally Posted by Andy Bee

10931 homes worth £1m+ in Scotland according to Savills, an eye watering 71% increase since 2019 and a lot in Edinburgh. Granted a lot will be homes already existing with the values going up but it's still pretty shocking that CT is calculated with the highest value band homes being £212k.

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I completely agree raise the % every 50k past 400k

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Originally Posted by Andy Bee

10931 homes worth £1m+ in Scotland according to Savills, an eye watering 71% increase since 2019 and a lot in Edinburgh. Granted a lot will be homes already existing with the values going up but it's still pretty shocking that CT is calculated with the highest value band homes being £212k.

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The highest value band is a house that would have been valued at £212k in April 1991 though, in todays money that’s a house worth £770k so we’d only need one more band from £275k for that to catch all the £1m homes today.

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Originally Posted by hibee

The highest value band is a house that would have been valued at £212k in April 1991 though, in todays money that’s a house worth £770k so we’d only need one more band from £275k for that to catch all the £1m homes today.

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I've just had a flick through zoopla and this is CT band G

https://www.zoopla.co.uk/for-sale/de...730071c100fbd1

And there's plenty more like it. It aint as simple as sticking another band on.

CT band F

https://www.zoopla.co.uk/for-sale/de...3742daf57d519e

6 bedrooms, 5 bathrooms and 4 reception rooms Offers over £2.2m CT Band G

https://www.zoopla.co.uk/for-sale/de...3742daf57d519e

WTAF

There are at least 22 houses in my postcode, every one is different. Valuations according to zoopla range from £275,500 (2021) to 780,000 (2014)

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Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

The average age of a median homebuyer in the UK is now 56.

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Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

The average age of a first time buyer was 26 in 1997 it's now 35

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I'm getting a bit confused by the contradictory numbers you keep posting. I agree with your overll premise, that there is a home ownership problem for young people today, but your headline grabbing posts are not helping to make your case.