Coronavirus

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Originally Posted by G B Young

Europe: Belgians turn their backs on PM over 'inept' handling of Covid-19 crisis:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-...m-sophie-wilms

Guess it's just not our UK and devolved governments (plus of course the US government) which are taking flak. How many are actually getting the thumbs-up from their citizens? New Zealand and Germany are the two which spring most to mind.

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Strong protests there.

Has similar flak been aimed at the devolved Govts? Not seen anything like that.

Saying that I haven't witnessed anything like that aimed at the UK Govt.

Think Belgium has the worst death rate, per million of the population, anywhere in the world so no surprise they’re not happy.

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Originally Posted by ColintonHibs

Lockdown gone on way too long. Economy dead

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https://theconversation.com/th...-it...benefit-138303

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Originally Posted by B.H.F.C

Think Belgium has the worst death rate, per million of the population, anywhere in the world so no surprise they’re not happy.

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They're second, only behind San Marino.

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Originally Posted by RyeSloan

Makes you wonder what they were using before if they are having to ‘trial’ a system now.

Also it’s clearly not ready as ‘further enhancements’ will come through June.

The decision to stop TTI at the start of the lockdown looks to have cost much needed development time. I said weeks and weeks ago they should have been standing up TTI on a trial basis to ensure they have it fully fleshed out both from a operational and staff perspective in time for the lockdown end.

Yet here we are only just starting the role out now. It could, and should, have been ready to rock already with just a ramp up of the processes and procedures that had been worked through in the last two months.

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I'm thinking part of the further enhancements will be round remote working. This type of work won't have been done from home before.

Totally agree that the decision to stop TTI was a mistake, they never stopped it in the Republic of Ireland. I would imagine though, when all ports are still open with thousands of new arrivals each day, it turns TTI into a needle in a haystack job. If you watch the Dispatches programme from last week about how South Korea tackle Covid surveillance, it is obvious the vast amount of technology required to do the task effecectively that we clearly do not have ready.

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Originally Posted by Callum_62

https://theconversation.com/th...-it...benefit-138303

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Just so I’m following this logic the report is suggesting that an 85 year old person that lives in a care home with dementia has a “Value” of $4.9m.

since you’ve shared the post can you explain?


Converting those fatalities to dollars using the Australian value of a statistical life of A$4.9 million per life yields a cost of A$1.1 trillion.

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Originally Posted by PaulSmith

Just so I’m following this logic the report is suggesting that an 85 year old person that lives in a care home with dementia has a “Value” of $4.9m.

since you’ve shared the post can you explain?


Converting those fatalities to dollars using the Australian value of a statistical life of A$4.9 million per life yields a cost of A$1.1 trillion.

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I'm not the original OP. I would say that an 85 year old person living in a care home with dementia has over their life time more than likely paid tax and therefore made a fair contribution to the economy, and probably still contributing in most case by having to pay for the care they receive through their life savings. Therefore their "value" in my mind is much the same as say a fit 30 year old currently working. That's how I see it.

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Originally Posted by G B Young

Europe: Belgians turn their backs on PM over 'inept' handling of Covid-19 crisis:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-...m-sophie-wilms

Guess it's just not our UK and devolved governments (plus of course the US government) which are taking flak. How many are actually getting the thumbs-up from their citizens? New Zealand and Germany are the two which spring most to mind.

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:agree: There's differing levels to bad management to this crisis. Some countries were ill prepared, some in denial, some had other priorities and some just simply incompetent with some having a pick n mix of all that previously mentioned.

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Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg

:agree: There's differing levels to bad management to this crisis. Some countries were ill prepared, some in denial, some had other priorities and some just simply incompetent with some having a pick n mix of all that previously mentioned.

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You've just described the UK response.

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Originally Posted by Santa Cruz

I'm not the original OP. I would say that an 85 year old person living in a care home with dementia has over their life time more than likely paid tax and therefore made a fair contribution to the economy, and probably still contributing in most case by having to pay for the care they receive through their life savings. Therefore their "value" in my mind is much the same as say a fit 30 year old currently working. That's how I see it.

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I don’t agree with the article but thanks for providing your explanation.

It also doesn’t feel right me, or anyone, putting a value on a life regardless of age, disability or otherwise so I can see this being emotive and becoming an ethical discussion so I’ll quietly bow out of this particular one.

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Originally Posted by PaulSmith

I don’t agree with the article but thanks for providing your explanation.

It also doesn’t feel right me, or anyone, putting a value on a life regardless of age, disability or otherwise so I can see this being emotive and becoming an ethical discussion so I’ll quietly bow out of this particular one.

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100% agree with you.

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Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

You've just described the UK response.

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I did originally add similar to my post but removed it.

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Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

I think my previous post was lost.

The test/track/trace, or whatever it's being called now, is being rolled out in 3 areas tomorrow

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Test, trace, isolate has always existed and has been used for years. Used for infectious disease, food poisoning outbreaks, drug deaths linked to impurities, etc.

I think it is a new software package that is being tested.

https://www.gov.scot/news/contact-tr...ology-piloted/


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Its interesting to see the development of the argument of the economy vs the heath of the population

Ofcourse in most places the latter was put front and centre but after only a few short weeks that seems to have diminished somewhat and now we have folk screaming about the former being more important than the latter as FOLK WILL STARVE!

Id suggest that if that argument is indeed valid, then its not our response to the virus that needs altered its our economic system

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Originally Posted by Callum_62

Its interesting to see the development of the argument of the economy vs the heath of the population

Ofcourse in most places the latter was put front and centre but after only a few short weeks that seems to have diminished somewhat and now we have folk screaming about the former being more important than the latter as FOLK WILL STARVE!

Id suggest that if that argument is indeed valid, then its not our response to the virus that needs altered its our economic system

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You paint two extremes when in reality a balance needs to be struck.

It has always been the case and always will be no matter what economic system you want to operate under.

It’s also pertinent to point out that many many people will be suffering huge financial loss due to the measures taken and that in turn will be leading to some struggling to survive. Pretending otherwise or suggesting the economic system is at fault is just a bit silly.

As quite obviously there is no system that can support huge swathes of the population being forced to stay at home for a long period or large parts of the economy (be that as free market as you want or wholly centrally controller) being shuttered indefinitely.

And yes many people do live week to week, some day to day...again no system has managed to avoid that scenario either.

It’s therefore totally valid to question how long a population or an economy can afford to be shut down for against the suggested health benefits that shutdown is purporting to provide.

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Originally Posted by RyeSloan

You paint two extremes when in reality a balance needs to be struck.

It has always been the case and always will be no matter what economic system you want to operate under.

It’s also pertinent to point out that many many people will be suffering huge financial loss due to the measures taken and that in turn will be leading to some struggling to survive. Pretending otherwise or suggesting the economic system is at fault is just a bit silly.

As quite obviously there is no system that can support huge swathes of the population being forced to stay at home for a long period or large parts of the economy (be that as free market as you want or wholly centrally controller) being shuttered indefinitely.

And yes many people do live week to week, some day to day...again no system has managed to avoid that scenario either.

It’s therefore totally valid to question how long a population or an economy can afford to be shut down for against the suggested health benefits that shutdown is purporting to provide.

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Its purporting to be saving 250,000 people (or was it 500,000?) in the UK alone

We live in a society where the biggest few companies paying the appropriate taxes could support this shutdown for a much much longer time.

Instead we are going to put people back to work when the correct safety measures or understanding of the virus just isn't there. Whats actually changed from 23rd March when lock down happened UK wide that makes it safe for teachers to return in 2 weeks?

Im simply stating that people should look at that with horror, rather than worrying some people are becoming addicted to furlough :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by G B Young

Europe: Belgians turn their backs on PM over 'inept' handling of Covid-19 crisis:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-...m-sophie-wilms

Guess it's just not our UK and devolved governments (plus of course the US government) which are taking flak. How many are actually getting the thumbs-up from their citizens? New Zealand and Germany are the two which spring most to mind.

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Australia has actually done pretty well do but that’s mostly been led by state governments rather than the federal one.

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Originally Posted by Callum_62

Its purporting to be saving 250,000 people (or was it 500,000?) in the UK alone

We live in a society where the biggest few companies paying the appropriate taxes could support this shutdown for a much much longer time.

Instead we are going to put people back to work when the correct safety measures or understanding of the virus just isn't there. Whats actually changed from 23rd March when lock down happened UK wide that makes it safe for teachers to return in 2 weeks?

Im simply stating that people should look at that with horror, rather than worrying some people are becoming addicted to furlough :rolleyes:

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There you go again using extremes to make a point.

Do you believe the 500,000 figure?

What few companies do you suggest should be paying taxes of the near £200bn cost of the virus to the UK government so far...and how many of them could afford doing so for ‘much much longer’. Certainly not the ones that are being driven out of business for it so your pool is diminishing by the day.

And much has changed since the 23rd March. For example in Scotland it was projected that they needed 7,000 beds including 750 ICU beds. In the end they needed a third of that so on a crude basis you could say they miscalculated the peak by a huge factor...somehow pretending that’s not a change in our understanding is a bit odd. As is the fact that you seem to be ignoring the fact that most other countries are attempting to re-open their economies based on their past experience of the last few months....are you suggesting no one has learned anything since the end of March? Are you screaming at Italy to suggest they are fools for trying to do so as it’s ridiculous to suggest people would starve if they didn’t?

But rather than just railing against a couple of slogans that you have decided paint a picture of extremes what are you suggesting should happen beyond these mystical few companies pouring endless billions into one nations governmental coffers?

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Originally Posted by RyeSloan

There you go again using extremes to make a point.

Do you believe the 500,000 figure?

What few companies do you suggest should be paying taxes of the near £200bn cost of the virus to the UK government so far...and how many of them could afford doing so for ‘much much longer’. Certainly not the ones that are being driven out of business for it so your pool is diminishing by the day.

And much has changed since the 23rd March. For example in Scotland it was projected that they needed 7,000 beds including 750 ICU beds. In the end they needed a third of that so on a crude basis you could say they miscalculated the peak by a huge factor...somehow pretending that’s not a change in our understanding is a bit odd. As is the fact that you seem to be ignoring the fact that most other countries are attempting to re-open their economies based on their past experience of the last few months....are you suggesting no one has learned anything since the end of March? Are you screaming at Italy to suggest they are fools for trying to do so as it’s ridiculous to suggest people would starve if they didn’t?

But rather than just railing against a couple of slogans that you have decided paint a picture of extremes what are you suggesting should happen beyond these mystical few companies pouring endless billions into one nations governmental coffers?

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That figure came from the UK gov which made them abandon the path they were on, so I assume it held water - certainly in the PMs eyes who up until that point was as jolly as could be

Are you suggesting our actions had no impact on the peak? That seems to be a common route taken now as if people staying home didn't impact the spread of the virus

As for paying fair tax, let's start with amazon and apple first. Yeah it's not illegal I know, doenst make it right though

I guess it's a reflection on my trust of the current UK gov that is quite probably affecting my feelings around the lockdown easing

That and all other 3 nations of the UK rejecting it

I still don't see any actual solid evidence to send teachers back in 2 weeks

Michael Gove saying its fine isn't evidence.



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Originally Posted by Callum_62

That figure came from the UK gov which made them abandon the path they were on, so I assume it held water - certainly in the PMs eyes who up until that point was as jolly as could be

Are you suggesting our actions had no impact on the peak? That seems to be a common route taken now as if people staying home didn't impact the spread of the virus

As for paying fair tax, let's start with amazon and apple first. Yeah it's not illegal I know, doenst make it right though

I guess it's a reflection on my trust of the current UK gov that is quite probably affecting my feelings around the lockdown easing

That and all other 3 nations of the UK rejecting it

I still don't see any actual solid evidence to send teachers back in 2 weeks

Michael Gove saying its fine isn't evidence.



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On the contrary I haven’t seen any evidence to suggest that teachers are in any danger from having kids in their classroom.

I’m not being flippant about it but a number of schools have been open throughout, transmission between kids and adults is still subject to debate and more importantly I don’t believe that there are any 75 year old plus teachers with underlying health conditions.

“Nothing in life is to be feared, it is only to be understood. Now is the time to understand more, so that we may fear less.”


I came across this quote earlier and it certainly resonates with the current mood.

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Originally Posted by PaulSmith

On the contrary I haven’t seen any evidence to suggest that teachers are in any danger from having kids in their classroom.

I’m not being flippant about it but a number of schools have been open throughout, transmission between kids and adults is still subject to debate and more importantly I don’t believe that there are any 75 year old plus teachers with underlying health conditions.

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Germany would appear to be taking a much more cautious approach. Schools are back but lessons and breaks have had to be staggered to accommodate the missing teachers that have been told to stay home because they are considered vulnerable. Same with kids but obviously there's much fewer kids considered to be vulnerable than teachers. Also the final decision lies with the parents, if they feel they want to keep their kids home for one reason or another, then they're provided with material to continue home schooling. We decided to send our son back to school even though he's diabetic type 1. We had a long talk with his endocrinologist who assured us that he was not at any elevated risk as opposed to that what we are reading in the media. Truth be told, staying at home was having a huge negative impact on his health so it's quite a relief to see his sugar levels stabilising after just a week back.

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Originally Posted by Hibby Bairn

Yes. Probably all of those things. These will vary and be different in all sorts of countries.

And yet all the curves look the same no matter the approach to lockdown. Sure death rates may be higher or lower but the tail still starts to “die off”.

Maybe there’s something else at play. Maybe not. Was just interested in other views.

For example. One question would be around schools which is a hot topic in the UK right now. Sweden didn’t close schools for under 16s.

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They also have a significantly higher death rate than their Scandinavian counterparts who did lockdown.

10 times more deaths than Norway and 7 times more than Denmark.

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Originally Posted by PaulSmith

On the contrary I haven’t seen any evidence to suggest that teachers are in any danger from having kids in their classroom.

I’m not being flippant about it but a number of schools have been open throughout, transmission between kids and adults is still subject to debate and more importantly I don’t believe that there are any 75 year old plus teachers with underlying health conditions.

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If evidence is subject to debate then any responsible administration should be erring on the side of caution. Personally think Scottish schools should go back after summer which would allow schools and councils reasonable time to organise social distance configurations required and agree appropriate scheduling of classes as no school will be able to open to all pupils imo.

Out of interest probably best answered by somebody who runs a business, in my work to be fair they have put in a lot of measures and things that has probably also came at a bit of a cost that I assume the business itself picks up. So you own a business that has been closed but in order to reopen you need to make it safe so before you even open the doors you are spending even more money so is it on the individual business to pay for there own measures? I assume it is but just looking for clarification.

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Originally Posted by PaulSmith

“Nothing in life is to be feared, it is only to be understood. Now is the time to understand more, so that we may fear less.”


I came across this quote earlier and it certainly resonates with the current mood.

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I fear watching the 2012 SC final

Understand that.

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Originally Posted by PaulSmith

On the contrary I haven’t seen any evidence to suggest that teachers are in any danger from having kids in their classroom.

I’m not being flippant about it but a number of schools have been open throughout, transmission between kids and adults is still subject to debate and more importantly I don’t believe that there are any 75 year old plus teachers with underlying health conditions.

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Debate isn't good enough when your wife is a teacher.

Why is anyone been asked to wfh when you can?

Ironically teachers can, although I understand it brings around some practical issues

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Bit of lightheartedness

It raises a point about my flight training though

Not much chance of social distancing there!

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...4b74f53b09.jpg

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Originally Posted by Captain Trips

Out of interest probably best answered by somebody who runs a business, in my work to be fair they have put in a lot of measures and things that has probably also came at a bit of a cost that I assume the business itself picks up. So you own a business that has been closed but in order to reopen you need to make it safe so before you even open the doors you are spending even more money so is it on the individual business to pay for there own measures? I assume it is but just looking for clarification.

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Yep

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Originally Posted by Callum_62

That figure came from the UK gov which made them abandon the path they were on, so I assume it held water - certainly in the PMs eyes who up until that point was as jolly as could be

Are you suggesting our actions had no impact on the peak? That seems to be a common route taken now as if people staying home didn't impact the spread of the virus

As for paying fair tax, let's start with amazon and apple first. Yeah it's not illegal I know, doenst make it right though

I guess it's a reflection on my trust of the current UK gov that is quite probably affecting my feelings around the lockdown easing

That and all other 3 nations of the UK rejecting it

I still don't see any actual solid evidence to send teachers back in 2 weeks

Michael Gove saying its fine isn't evidence.



Sent from my VOG-L29 using Tapatalk

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The figure came from a model, a model now rather discredited. I asked you if you believed it.

You then said we have learned nothing since March but you now appear to be suggest that we have (the lockdown is the required approach)...I certainly didn’t suggest anything around what measures had made no difference to the peak, that’s a classic strawman that you have chucked in there.

As it is I think we have learned loads and actually it has only strengthened the trend from before, that the virus disproportionately effects the elderly and as we have seen those with specific underlying issues. In particular those with diabetes.

We have also learned that ventilations were not needed in there millions and that other treatments were more effective. The list goes on and on.

Then your list of companies that can afford to give the UK government hundreds of billions amounts to Amazon and Apple...did you just stop at A or was it the realisation that measures that cause GDP to drop up to 30% almost overnight are simply not sustainable for any length of period no matter how much tax you might want to raise as the wealth generation to pay the tax has been switched off?

I think ultimately your point seems to boil down to the fact that you think teachers in England are being asked to go back to work too early. If so it might have been easier just for you to say so and to put forward a cohesive reason as to why, rather than just deploying hyperbole about people screaming about others starving and the need for new economic models.

Anyway despite the lockdown I have work to do today so I’ll bow out here.