Generic Sevco / Rangers meltdown thread

Sevco are as good as dead imo -it is only a matter of time.

Good riddance when they finally are flushed away like the persistant toleys they are. I will certainly raise a glass in celebration. I despise them, thier bigotry, cheating and arrogance.

Kings increasingly unhinged ramblings and actions must surely be scaring off any remaining, reluctant allies. Interesting to read and hear some huns now saying it's all part of greater master plan of Kings to force an insolvency event. I think they are crediting him with far too much intelligence personally. Clutching at straws imo.

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Originally Posted by macca70

He clearly says that had it not been for the financial/tax set up, certain players wouldn't have signed but goes on to say that didn't give them an advantage on the pitch!!

What a load of lies. This is just going to turn every other club against them even more than they already are against them.

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Gross mismanagement if they didn't sign those cheaper players who would have been just as good.

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Originally Posted by jacomoseven

They were relegated and banned from Europe.

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I know that but were they stripped of the trophy

Wouldnt it be refreshing if just for once someone faced up to reality and accepted responsibility for what they did.

Both Hearts and Rangers fail to see anything wrong in what they did.

I would like to think that in their shoes Hibs would have held their hand up and said - yep we were wrong

Even the Russians are going to accept some of the doping allegations against them

Love the way they are all quoting Lord Nimmo Smith without having paid the fine.
The Sevco way.


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Originally Posted by macca70

Dave King statement:

It is disappointing that a debate has re-emerged around the subject of Rangers’ history in Scottish football. It must be especially frustrating for the Club’s supporters who again find individuals within the structures of Scottish football unfairly targeting the Club.

As the one individual who was a major shareholder and director throughout the period that gave rise to the HMRC dispute, and again find myself in a similar capacity, I believe that I am uniquely positioned to make three important observations.

First, irrespective of the final outcome of the tax appeal (which might take several more years) the football team had no advantage from any tax savings from the scheme put in place by the Murray Group. Throughout the period in question the shareholders were committed to providing funding to the Club. The tax scheme may have reduced the need for shareholders to provide higher levels of funding so, as I have tried to make clear in the past, any advantage gained would have been to the company and its shareholders, not the team. Certain players may not have signed for the Club without the perceived benefit of personal tax savings but there was no general advantage for the player squad, or the performance on the pitch. We would still have signed players of equal abilities if one or two had decided they didn’t want to sign under different financial circumstances.

Secondly, Lord Nimmo Smith has fully and finally dealt with the legitimacy of the continuity of the Club’s history. There is no more to be debated on that issue.

Finally, it is extraordinary that representatives of other Scottish clubs – who admit the damage done to Scottish football by Rangers’ removal from the Premier League – should even wish to re-engage with this issue. It is time those individuals, who represent other clubs, recognise their legal and fiduciary responsibilities to their own clubs and shareholders rather than submit to the uninformed ramblings of a few outspoken fans to whom attacking Rangers is more important than the wellbeing of their own clubs.

This is a misguided attempt (that will ultimately fail) to rewrite history and defeat Rangers off the park when their teams could not do so on the park at the time. The history of many other clubs would have to be rewritten if this illogical argument was to be consistently applied.

Having reviewed documentation that has become available to me I believe that Rangers was harshly and, in some instances, unfairly treated in the period leading up to demotion from the Premier League. However, that is now history and I have publicly stated, with the full support of the recently installed board, that we wish to put the past behind us and move on in partnership with all clubs throughout Scotland to improve and restore the image and quality of Scottish football as a whole. This will be to the benefit of all clubs.

For the avoidance of doubt, however, I wish to make one point clear. If the history of our Club comes under attack we will deal with it in the strongest manner possible and will hold to account those persons who have acted against their fiduciary responsibilities to their own clubs and to Scottish football.

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He is off his rocker. At least he acknowledges that he was on the watch whilst the EBTs were getting handed out.

Regarding his comment about teams having to re-write history the only bit needing altered would be 3-0 victories whenever playing Rangers. As the trophy was withheld no alteration in league places would take place, no resultant lawsuits etc. It is a win for everyone by the now dead club.

That statement is about as powerful as bringing a knife to a gunfight. (to paraphrase the untouchables)

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Originally Posted by leggeto

I know that but were they stripped of the trophy

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Not according to the UEFA website - they are still listed as the winners in 1993

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Originally Posted by Benny Brazil

Not according to the UEFA website - they are still listed as the winners in 1993

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Did the French strip them of anything

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Originally Posted by leggeto

I know that but were they stripped of the trophy

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I think they got to keep the European trophy as the offences they were found guilty of only related to domestic matches in France.

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Originally Posted by Golden Bear

The guy is not of this world. His inane ramblings get more bizarre as each day passes.

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The strain is showing, I think he is having a bit of a meltdown that things are likely worse than he expected/than is reported in the mainstream media.

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Originally Posted by leggeto

Did the French strip them of anything

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Again looking at the French FA website they are still listed as champions in 1988/89 - 1991/92 so not sure if they did

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Originally Posted by ballengeich

I think they got to keep the European trophy as the offences they were found guilty of only related to domestic matches in France.

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Hmmm looks like they will be keeping them then,anyone else apart from the old and infirm would be stripped of all

I'm eagerly awaiting the next Hertz fans' article pointing out the nuanced ways in which Hertz are pure amazing and Rangers are evil cheats.

Does this accurately reflect what we know went on in court today?
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/f...rs-pay-6821547

No club company mention?


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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

Does this accurately reflect what we know went on in court today?
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/f...rs-pay-6821547

No club company mention?


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Really balanced reporting......................................... .....not.

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Originally Posted by Greenblood70

Sevco are as good as dead imo -it is only a matter of time.

Good riddance when they finally are flushed away like the persistant toleys they are. I will certainly raise a glass in celebration. I despise them, thier bigotry, cheating and arrogance.

Kings increasingly unhinged ramblings and actions must surely be scaring off any remaining, reluctant allies. Interesting to read and hear some huns now saying it's all part of greater master plan of Kings to force an insolvency event. I think they are crediting him with far too much intelligence personally. Clutching at straws imo.

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They are having multiple orgasms on FF over Lying King's statement. They seem to think he has played an absolute master card.

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Originally Posted by Jim44

They are having multiple orgasms on FF over Lying King's statement. They seem to think he has played an absolute master card.

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They used to react in the same way to every Ian Paisley remark. Such is their level of credibility.

The only thing King can hold to account is money due for tax.

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Originally Posted by Jim44

They are having multiple orgasms on FF over Lying King's statement. They seem to think he has played an absolute master card.

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Had the desired effect then.

Bet they are out buying their half seasons which co-incidentally went on sale today.

Reading today that they are prepared to sell players at the break if the price is right. They can only be referring to Waghorn and Tavernier, they are the only ones they would get money for, that would be a BONUS!!

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Originally Posted by Big L

Reading today that they are prepared to sell players at the break if the price is right. They can only be referring to Waghorn and Tavernier, they are the only ones they would get money for, that would be a BONUS!!

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They'd get a decent wedge for the gun slinger too.

Look away for half a day & miss 8 pages!
Any kind soul care to summarise in a tweet length précis?

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Originally Posted by ano hibby

Look away for half a day & miss 8 pages!
Any kind soul care to summarise in a tweet length précis?

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King - "Nothing to see here, move along......Try stripping our titles and we will take action"....... Wind and gusto

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Originally Posted by Big L

Reading today that they are prepared to sell players at the break if the price is right. They can only be referring to Waghorn and Tavernier, they are the only ones they would get money for, that would be a BONUS!!

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Are both of them no on loan

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Originally Posted by leggeto

Are both of them no on loan

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No. They're bought.

Dunno if they're paid for, mind :)

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Originally Posted by ano hibby

Look away for half a day & miss 8 pages!
Any kind soul care to summarise in a tweet length précis?

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Nah, nothing much happening, just shooting the breeze.


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Originally Posted by Big L

Reading today that they are prepared to sell players at the break if the price is right. They can only be referring to Waghorn and Tavernier, they are the only ones they would get money for, that would be a BONUS!!

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The sale of future engerland keeper will surely solve all there financial woes

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Originally Posted by Baldy Foghorn

King - "Nothing to see here, move along......Try stripping our titles and we will take action"....... Wind and gusto

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Ta. Not unpredictable then.

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Originally Posted by HUTCHYHIBBY

That statement from King must be one of those "restrained and tempered" responses that the ibroxnoise website was banging on about due to the usual Rangers dignity!

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It was quite clever actually, whipping the knuckle draggers up. Bet he sells 1000 half season tickets off the back of it, Kitchener would be very proud, your club needs you to repel the foaming hoards bull.

http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/11...d0a76d1ea0.jpg

Herald running with same angle as the Record. Clearly a concerted campaign. Thank goodness for the Internet.

@jamesdoleman: Almost seems like a different case to the one I was at

:)

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Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

No. They're bought.

Dunno if they're paid for, mind :)

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Just like their history...on the cheap

http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/11...0deb9c80ac.jpg



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Here's James Doleman's report on today.
http://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2015/11...ith-the-truth/



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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/11...0deb9c80ac.jpg



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He should have taken over Crystal Palace for all the stones he likes to throw from glass houses.

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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

Here's James Doleman's report on today.
http://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2015/11...ith-the-truth/



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Doesn't he have that first bit wrong?

He talks about the alleged fraud during the IPO. That took place while he was in post, not before.

I think he's getting mixed up with the alleged fraud of the assets sale.

I wasn't aware that the IPO was dodgy as well. Did I miss that?

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I bet Lord Doherty is quaking in his boots at the thought of a lying King taking him to task if he decides for Chucky regarding club/company status.
And I have a feeling Mike Ashley will be pleased at present events.

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Originally Posted by leggeto

Celtic would be claiming the titles for 2nd place too I rekon

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They would reclaim the "9 in a row" franchise. Rangers doing the same really p***ed them off.

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Originally Posted by Brunswickbill

They would reclaim the "9 in a row" franchise. Rangers doing the same really p***ed them off.

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It won't change old Rangers 9 in a row


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Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

Doesn't he have that first bit wrong?

He talks about the alleged fraud during the IPO. That took place while he was in post, not before.

I think he's getting mixed up with the alleged fraud of the assets sale.

I wasn't aware that the IPO was dodgy as well. Did I miss that?

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Not exactly sure but are not charges over both?



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Originally Posted by Benny Brazil

Again looking at the French FA website they are still listed as champions in 1988/89 - 1991/92 so not sure if they did

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Will Rangers get relegated then?

Can we overtake them in the League first please?

Rangers defence today was that they are only liable for Charlie's actions from when he bought the assets mid June 2012.
Charlie claims it is from when he started working for Sevco.


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Originally Posted by Big L

Reading today that they are prepared to sell players at the break if the price is right. They can only be referring to Waghorn and Tavernier, they are the only ones they would get money for, that would be a BONUS!!

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It's alright. Warburton did his due diligence before accepting the job.

:hilarious

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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

Love the way they are all quoting Lord Nimmo Smith without having paid the fine.
The Sevco way.


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This bit you mean?

"In common speech a Club is treated as a recognisable entity which is capable of being owned and operated, and which continues in existence despite its transfer to another owner and operator. In legal terms, it appears to us to be no different from any other undertaking which is capable of being carried on, bought and sold.”

Don't know why, but they always seem to miss this bit?


“This is not to say that a Club has legal personality, separate from and additional to the legal personality of its owner and operator. We are satisfied that it does not, and Mr McKenzie did not seek to argue otherwise. So a Club cannot, lacking legal personality, enter into a contract by itself.”

Certain players may not have signed for the club without the perceived benefit of personal tax savings, but there was no general advantage for the player squad, or the performance on the pitch"

That sounds so contradictory to me. We got players who we might not have got, our first choices in fact, because of the Tax evasion but there was no sporting advantage in us getting these preferred players. Why not just get the cheaper players and pay taxes in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

Rangers defence today was that they are only liable for Charlie's actions from when he bought the assets mid June 2012.
Charlie claims it is from when he started working for Sevco.


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Green's legal cover clause is near the end of this article.


http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/f...d-deal-6510560


" ........any proceedings as a result of his having been chief executive of Rangers Football Club or the company. "

not 100% clear if this would cover actions before the " company " was formed. ( Sevco Scotland formed 29/5/2012 )

http://www.onfieldsofgreen.com/a-ver...ball-part-one/

Excellent Story so far from James Forrest

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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

http://www.onfieldsofgreen.com/a-ver...ball-part-one/

Excellent Story so far from James Forrest

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Agreed. That's quite a long but very good read.

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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

http://www.onfieldsofgreen.com/a-ver...ball-part-one/

Excellent Story so far from James Forrest

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A really good account. It would make some film script but nobody would believe it....

http://www.scotzine.com/2015/11/for-...d-of-old-tosh/

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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

http://www.onfieldsofgreen.com/a-ver...ball-part-one/

Excellent Story so far from James Forrest

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Not so sure about his version of how HMRC became aware of the EBT issue. Other than that, thus far seems pretty decent.

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Originally Posted by CallumLaidlaw

http://www.scotzine.com/2015/11/for-...d-of-old-tosh/

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So Jim Traynor wrote The Rangers / King press release yesterday. I thought he'd moved on from Ibrox. If not then he certainly sounds rattled going by yesterday's statement and also suffering from selective / inaccurate memory.

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Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

Not so sure about his version of how HMRC became aware of EBT issue. Other than that, thus far seems pretty decent.

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:agree:
Seems to be a useful, well-written chronological account of the whole shenanigans. If only someone could write up a glossary of the key initials and issues*, those of us whose cog-wheels creak at times like these, as we try to separate our BTCs from our WTCs and our LNSs would be greatly helped.:greengrin


* and sticky it!

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Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

Not so sure about his version of how HMRC became aware of the EBT issue. Other than that, thus far seems pretty decent.

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I'm pretty sure that's how they became aware Rangers were abusing the scheme. I think the scheme itself was common knowledge, it was the existence of side letters that put Rangers in the dock.


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Was working last night and had Sportsound on... Yes I know!! I was so angered by the Rangers apologists especially Richard Wilson, I think that's his name, I text them to let them know my views. This was more to get it off my chest, however they read it out. I won't bore you all with what I said but it was all facts. Now when I said they read it out they read out MOST of it... Missing out one sentance at the end that stated, "Rangers, just like Hearts, have been a complete embarrassment to Scottish football over these past few years". This one bit wasn't read out... Wonder why?!

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Originally Posted by Scorrie

So Jim Traynor wrote The Rangers / King press release yesterday. I thought he'd moved on from Ibrox. If not then he certainly sounds rattled going by yesterday's statement and also suffering from selective / inaccurate memory.

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Funnily enough, Scotzine themselves reported it - http://www.scotzine.com/2013/11/jame...ommunications/

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Originally Posted by CallumLaidlaw

Funnily enough, Scotzine themselves reported it - http://www.scotzine.com/2013/11/jame...ommunications/

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He's not directly employed by the New Huns any more, but he started his own PR company, Level 5, whose main (only?) client is the New Huns.

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Originally Posted by Scorrie

So Jim Traynor wrote The Rangers / King press release yesterday. I thought he'd moved on from Ibrox. If not then he certainly sounds rattled going by yesterday's statement and also suffering from selective / inaccurate memory.

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It certainly read like the kind of tripe Traynor has penned in the past.

The archetypal keyboard warrior - hiding behind the identity of Rangers or King to publish intemperate rants.

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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

I'm pretty sure that's how they became aware Rangers were abusing the scheme. I think the scheme itself was common knowledge, it was the existence of side letters that put Rangers in the dock.


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If that is true how HMRC found out then the Newcastle manager who bought Boumsong was Souness IRRC who allegedly received an EBT payment. A delicious irony that a Souness transfer could have led to the whole big hoose of cards falling...

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Originally Posted by jacomoseven

It certainly read like the kind of tripe Traynor has penned in the past.

The archetypal keyboard warrior - hiding behind the identity of Rangers or King to publish intemperate rants.

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Incredible that clown is still involved in the game given his behaviour when at the Record such as when emailing Whyte to ok what he put in an article and now still taking cash from Rangers. Only in Scotland would he still be this involved, absolutely shameless and total lack of integriity, he really is the archetypal succulent lamb.

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Originally Posted by wookie70

Certain players may not have signed for the club without the perceived benefit of personal tax savings, but there was no general advantage for the player squad, or the performance on the pitch"

That sounds so contradictory to me. We got players who we might not have got, our first choices in fact, because of the Tax evasion but there was no sporting advantage in us getting these preferred players. Why not just get the cheaper players and pay taxes in the first place.

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It does and more importantly it contradicts what King said in 2012. An article in todays (Friday 13 Nov 2015) Herald quotes Kings as saying he understands where folk are coming from (re the perception of cheating) and that Rangers should apologise for this.

Sorry, can't do the link.

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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

I'm pretty sure that's how they became aware Rangers were abusing the scheme. I think the scheme itself was common knowledge, it was the existence of side letters that put Rangers in the dock.


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You might be right.

My memory, though, is that HMRC were attacking EBT's in general, not just RFC's. As you say, the existence of RFC's scheme was in the public domain, therefore they were fair game.

I would question, though, how the author would "know" what he says about HMRC's involvement. They are notoriously reticent about individual cases.

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Originally Posted by Scorrie

If that is true how HMRC found out then the Newcastle manager who bought Boumsong was Souness IRRC who allegedly received an EBT payment. A delicious irony that a Souness transfer could have led to the whole big hoose of cards falling...

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All former Rangers managers and players who became managers have form when it comes to paying top dollar for players from David Murray's Rangers.
Souness received his EBT ten years after he left Rangers, coincidently at the same time he was signing Tugay from Rangers to Blackburn. Just a coincidence though.


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Originally Posted by JimBHibees

Incredible that clown is still involved in the game given his behaviour when at the Record such as when emailing Whyte to ok what he put in an article and now still taking cash from Rangers. Only in Scotland would he still be this involved, absolutely shameless and total lack of integriity, he really is the archetypal succulent lamb.

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Traynor is the perfect mouthpiece for The Rangers though. A nasty piece of work with an overinflated sense of importance.

No wonder the hordes lap it up. He speaks their language.

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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

All former Rangers managers and players who became managers have form when it comes to paying top dollar for players from David Murray's Rangers.
Souness received his EBT ten years after he left Rangers, coincidently at the same time he was signing Tugay from Rangers to Blackburn. Just a coincidence though.

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IIRC, the BBC programme by Mark Daly implied very strongly that the 2 actions were linked though they had to watch what they said as I guess there is no proof.

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Originally Posted by ACLeith

IIRC, the BBC programme by Mark Daly implied very strongly that the 2 actions were linked though they had to watch what they said as I guess there is no proof.

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But it does rather look like the BBC have backed off talking about The Rangers problems since they renegotiated their return to cover games at Ibrox. Sad really that this shower seem to still manage to manipulate the press right up to and including the National Broadcaster. The mainstream media should hang its collective head in shame at their part in this mess.

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Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

Not so sure about his version of how HMRC became aware of the EBT issue. Other than that, thus far seems pretty decent.

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Willie Mackay sets off all sorts of klaxons where finance and football intersect.

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Originally Posted by jacomoseven

It certainly read like the kind of tripe Traynor has penned in the past.

The archetypal keyboard warrior - hiding behind the identity of Rangers or King to publish intemperate rants.

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I imagine him reading that out from the top of the marble staircase with union flags as a backdrop.

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Originally Posted by CentreLine

But it does rather look like the BBC have backed off talking about The Rangers problems since they renegotiated their return to cover games at Ibrox. Sad really that this shower seem to still manage to manipulate the press right up to and including the National Broadcaster. The mainstream media should hang its collective head in shame at their part in this mess.

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Luckily we don't have to rely on the mainstream media any more.


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They will always want the pitch to be tilted in their favor. Like Rockefeller, they think "competition is a sin".

What is good for Scottish football? Competition.

Competition is the very thing that cheats seek to destroy.

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Originally Posted by Treadstone

Willie Mackay sets off all sorts of klaxons where finance and football intersect.

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He definitely does and is an inextricable link between this whole EBT/cheating fiasco. Hope he gets done too!!!!

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Originally Posted by GreenLake

They will always want the pitch to be tilted in their favor. Like Rockefeller, they think "competition is a sin".

What is good for Scottish football? Competition.

Competition is the very thing that cheats seek to destroy.

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What a fantastic post. :top marks

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Originally Posted by Mikey09

Was working last night and had Sportsound on... Yes I know!! I was so angered by the Rangers apologists especially Richard Wilson, I think that's his name, I text them to let them know my views. This was more to get it off my chest, however they read it out. I won't bore you all with what I said but it was all facts. Now when I said they read it out they read out MOST of it... Missing out one sentance at the end that stated, "Rangers, just like Hearts, have been a complete embarrassment to Scottish football over these past few years". This one bit wasn't read out... Wonder why?!

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In my opinion Richard Wilson currently sums up most of what has been wrong with sports journalist throughout this saga. He makes what could be a cogent and valid point, but does nothing to establish the facts.

His point is that 'it may not be possible for the SPFL to punish TRFC re EBTs and the failure to pay tax, because the rules at the time were different and current rules cannot be applied retrospectively.'

I must admit that I do not know the answer, but would have expected that given he made the point on Monday's show, that he would have looked into it and been able to be fairly definitive when discussed on Wednesday.

Good interview with meatball though.

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Originally Posted by Radium

In my opinion Richard Wilson currently sums up most of what has been wrong with sports journalist throughout this saga...

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I don't believe it!

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Originally Posted by CentreLine

But it does rather look like the BBC have backed off talking about The Rangers problems since they renegotiated their return to cover games at Ibrox. Sad really that this shower seem to still manage to manipulate the press right up to and including the National Broadcaster. The mainstream media should hang its collective head in shame at their part in this mess.

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:top marks

Craigie boy threatened them with legal action over the first programme but as every part was backed up with real evidence then that was far as he went. And the BBC went ahead with the second programme. We now need Mark Daly to complete the trilogy but would they have the guts to let him do that now? :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Radium

In my opinion Richard Wilson currently sums up most of what has been wrong with sports journalist throughout this saga. He makes what could be a cogent and valid point, but does nothing to establish the facts.

His point is that 'it may not be possible for the SPFL to punish TRFC re EBTs and the failure to pay tax, because the rules at the time were different and current rules cannot be applied retrospectively.'

I must admit that I do not know the answer, but would have expected that given he made the point on Monday's show, that he would have looked into it and been able to be fairly definitive when discussed on Wednesday.

Good interview with meatball though.

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Another way of saying the LNS report is binding.
they always quote that" because of the LNS report the question of inelagble players was dealt with"
now they are saying the SFA need to wait to see if there is an appeal regarding the ebt verdict.
why did they not wait for any appeal before lord nimmos report?
the LNS report will be thrown out!

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Originally Posted by Glesgahibby

Another way of saying the LNS report is binding.
they always quote that" because of the LNS report the question of inelagble players was dealt with"
now they are saying the SFA need to wait to see if there is an appeal regarding the ebt verdict.
why did they not wait for any appeal before lord nimmos report?
the LNS report will be thrown out!

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By not paying the fine, Sevco have not accepted LNS's verdict so it should be set aside and a new enquiry launched.


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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

By not paying the fine, Sevco have not accepted LNS's verdict so it should be set aside and a new enquiry launched.


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Did they not pay it via default,as in the SFA took it from there end of season money?
I hope I'm wrong :greengrin

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Originally Posted by Glesgahibby

Did they not pay it via default,as in the SFA took it from there end of season money?
I hope I'm wrong :greengrin

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No it's still outstanding.
£250k + £150k costs


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https://johnjamessite.wordpress.com/...brook-iceberg/


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"The team are paid by Sevco, play at a ground owned by Sevco, trained by a manager who is employed by Sevco, fans buy tickets from Sevco"

Yesterday's quote from Charles Green's Lawyer.
Has anyone managed to find this anywhere in the mainstream press?


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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

No it's still outstanding.
£250k + £150k costs


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Cheers ozz :aok:

Reading JJ's latest blog he seems to think MA might try to get King struck off as he was a director of a company (old co) that wilfully made false statements to HMRC. Also could King and D. Murray be charged with deception and fraud ?

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Originally Posted by southsider

Reading JJ's latest blog he seems to think MA might try to get King struck off as he was a director of a company (old co) that wilfully made false statements to HMRC. Also could King and D. Murray be charged with deception and fraud ?

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Covered many, many times mainly by CWG. Yes, but you'd have to prove beyond reasonable doubt that they set out with the intention of deliberately defrauding the revenue of money they knew they had a cast iron obligation to pay and not just to exploit what they thought was a loophole but later turned out not to be.

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Originally Posted by southsider

Reading JJ's latest blog he seems to think MA might try to get King struck off as he was a director of a company (old co) that wilfully made false statements to HMRC. Also could King and D. Murray be charged with deception and fraud ?

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JJ, as ever, is playing fast and loose with the facts.

Directors can't be "struck off", as he puts it. They can be disqualified, which TBF is probably what he means.

They can't be disqualified for lying to HMRC. That might disqualify thousands :greengrin

This is a list of red-card offences. Take yer pick......

allowing a company to continue trading when it can’t pay its debts

not keeping proper company accounting records

not sending accounts and returns to Companies House

not paying tax owed by the company

using company money or assets for personal benefit

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Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens

Covered many, many times mainly by CWG. Yes, but you'd have to prove beyond reasonable doubt that they set out with the intention of deliberately defrauding the revenue of money they knew they had a cast iron obligation to pay and not just to exploit what they thought was a loophole but later turned out not to be.

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Did Campbell Ogilvie to oversea those contracts and did he choose not to disclose this to the SFA ? IMO they all knew what they were doing was illegal and they chose to carry on reguardless thinking the SFA were too scared (and still are) to challenge them. We need action and I hope our club is to the forefront of "sporting integrity" again.

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Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens

Covered many, many times mainly by CWG. Yes, but you'd have to prove beyond reasonable doubt that they set out with the intention of deliberately defrauding the revenue of money they knew they had a cast iron obligation to pay and not just to exploit what they thought was a loophole but later turned out not to be.

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You calling me repetitive? :cb

You're right, though. In simple terms, it's the difference between a conversation that goes "I know of a way to pay less tax, legitimately. Let's do it." and one that goes "I know of a way to pay less tax. It's against the law, but let's do it anyway."

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Originally Posted by southsider

Did Campbell Ogilvie to oversea those contracts and did he choose not to disclose this to the SFA ? IMO they all knew what they were doing was illegal and they chose to carry on reguardless thinking the SFA were too scared (and still are) to challenge them. We need action and I hope our club is to the forefront of "sporting integrity" again.

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They didn't "know" that what they were doing was illegal.

They believed that the scheme was legal and, up to a point, they were correct to do so. They screwed up on its operation, though.

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Originally Posted by southsider

Did Campbell Ogilvie to oversea those contracts and did he choose not to disclose this to the SFA ? IMO they all knew what they were doing was illegal and they chose to carry on reguardless thinking the SFA were too scared (and still are) to challenge them. We need action and I hope our club is to the forefront of "sporting integrity" again.

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Amit is getting back to us on that last point.


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Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

They didn't "know" that what they were doing was illegal.

They believed that the scheme was legal and, up to a point, they were correct to do so. They screwed up on its operation, though.

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I think they knew all along but they did not think they would get caught. They would have done were it not for that pesky Hector. But what do I know I'm just a guy who goes to work each day and who would not know an EBT if you hit me round the lugs wi it

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Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

They didn't "know" that what they were doing was illegal.

They believed that the scheme was legal and, up to a point, they were correct to do so. They screwed up on its operation, though.

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If they thought it was legal, why did they issue side letters / contracts? Apologies if this is a daft question...

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Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

They didn't "know" that what they were doing was illegal.

They believed that the scheme was legal and, up to a point, they were correct to do so. They screwed up on its operation, though.

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HMRC is one thing.

You've got to ask why they didn't declare these EBTs to the SFA, though.

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Originally Posted by Scorrie

If they thought it was legal, why did they issue side letters / contracts? Apologies if this is a daft question...

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It's not a daft question.

The side-letters may be the smoking gun, of course. Thus far, it seems that they are the flaw in what was otherwise an OK scheme. Was that evidence of being badly advised, or was it evidence of fraud?

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Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

It's not a daft question.

The side-letters may be the smoking gun, of course. Thus far, it seems that they are the flaw in what was otherwise an OK scheme. Was that evidence of being badly advised, or was it evidence of fraud?

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Their concealment from both the revenue and that SFA suggests fraud.


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Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

It's not a daft question.

The side-letters may be the smoking gun, of course. Thus far, it seems that they are the flaw in what was otherwise an OK scheme. Was that evidence of being badly advised, or was it evidence of fraud?

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Aren't they evidence that EBTs were an integral part of employment contracts? I thought this was the 'common sense' judgement.

I'm struggling to fathom why UEFA are not asking questions of the SFA?

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Originally Posted by HoboHarry

I'm struggling to fathom why UEFA are not asking questions of the SFA?

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Perhaps they're waiting for due process to be done? The EBT decision is likely to be appealed by The Rangers / King. See how that pans out?

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Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

It's not a daft question.

The side-letters may be the smoking gun, of course. Thus far, it seems that they are the flaw in what was otherwise an OK scheme. Was that evidence of being badly advised, or was it evidence of fraud?

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Double barrel:wink:
con the SFA and hopefully keep the tax man happy.
as we know the tax man wasn't happy!
the tax man has proved,not loans but earnings!
Now it's over to the SFA,will they disagree with the tax man???:greengrin

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Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

It's not a daft question.

The side-letters may be the smoking gun, of course. Thus far, it seems that they are the flaw in what was otherwise an OK scheme. Was that evidence of being badly advised, or was it evidence of fraud?

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The side-letters are the smoking gun, but the scheme would still have been flawed without them (imo).

To successfully avoid tax, the payments into the EBT had to be made on the basis that they weren't as compensation for an employee carrying out their normal duties (aka emoluments). So:

- I say, that jolly nice employee of ours is a rather good egg, let's pay him a couple of £M in trust to keep him happy, is ok

but

- let's agree up front that our star midfielder will get £100K in trust per appearance for our football team that he's been employed to play for, isn't


Without the side letters, it would be more difficult to prove that the latter case was happening, but the payments *should* still be liable for tax. Football being the game it is, there was no way the players' agents were going to settle for a nod and a wink, hence the side letters and the ultimate unravelling.

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Originally Posted by HoboHarry

I'm struggling to fathom why UEFA are not asking questions of the SFA?

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Glass houses and throwing stones?

UEFA have corruption issues of their own right now.

Although they might want to flex their muscles and be particularly heavy-handed on the next authority they rule over who misbehave?

On one level I'd love to see the SFA taken to task - the conduct of the people who held office at both Rangers and the SFA throughout this whole sorry ordeal is for me the greatest scandal.

Although I would hate to see the national team punished.

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Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

You calling me repetitive? :cb

You're right, though. In simple terms, it's the difference between a conversation that goes "I know of a way to pay less tax, legitimately. Let's do it." and one that goes "I know of a way to pay less tax. It's against the law, but let's do it anyway."

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I was thinking more, "patient". :wink: