Generic Sevco / Rangers meltdown thread

It may not have a fiscal impact on Sevco. But it's now official. Their club history is one of cheated titles. That they can never run from. Odious club indeed.


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Originally Posted by easty

So...what does this mean then? Whats this going to cost them?

Can they just appeal it?

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Won't mean anything to The Rangers, but it does provide evidence that OldCo did in fact cheat.

Also clears the way for HMRC to pursue other football clubs who have used the same/similar practises in the past. Think there will be a few clubs with squeeky bums this morning...

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Originally Posted by Kato

HMRC win appeal, link to statement ...


http://www.scotland-judiciary.org.uk...ngs-and-others

This part.

“It seems to us to be self-evident that the obligations in the side-letter were part of the employee’s employment package, and provided him with additional remuneration. They were negotiated as part of the total employment package…Once it is accepted that the bonus payments represented consideration for a footballer’s services qua employee, it inevitably follows that those payments represented emoluments or earnings of the footballer in question.

“Furthermore, so far as the footballers are concerned, at least, it seems to us that if bonuses had not been paid they might well have taken their services elsewhere. We realise that the fifth respondent [RFC 2012] was in, potentially, a difficult financial position, competing for good players in an international market where other countries may not have the same rigorous approach to taxation as the United Kingdom. Nevertheless, the law is clear: the payments made in respect of footballers were in our view derived from their employment and thus the payments were emoluments or earnings.”

...shows Rangers cheated. Something the SFA has denied but was and is clearly against the rules then and now.

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This proves players earnings registered with sfa where false!!
I wonder if any editor/reporter has the balls to confront the sfa with this.

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Originally Posted by Liberal Hibby

Shouldn't Oldco now be stripped of the trophies and titles won while using EBTs?

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In a word, yes.

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Originally Posted by Glesgahibby

I wonder if any editor/reporter has the balls to confront the sfa with this.

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Not a chance of any Scottish journo saying a dicky-bird.

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Originally Posted by steakbake

Anything on the jungle drums about whether they are close?

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I'd love to be wrong but they're not close.

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Originally Posted by Liberal Hibby

Shouldn't Oldco now be stripped of the trophies and titles won while using EBTs?

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Absolutely, yes they should. It's up to the fans to apply the pressure on the SFA for a further investigation.


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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

Absolutely, yes they should. It's up to the fans to apply the pressure on the SFA for a further investigation.


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And you can be guaranteed there will be plenty Celtic fans doing that right now.

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Originally Posted by easty

All seems a bit pointless if it's not going to cost the newco anything.

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It is not pointless for H.M.R.C. as they will set a precedent to pursue clubs Daan Sauff.

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Originally Posted by Liberal Hibby

Shouldn't Oldco now be stripped of the trophies and titles won while using EBTs?

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Yes, without doubt will it happen no chance.

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Originally Posted by Kato

Not a chance of any Scottish journo saying a dicky-bird.

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Indeed but maybe Mark Daly would give it a go - failing that Alex Tommo will

It only says they have won the Appeal to actually take it back to court, not actually won the verdict

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Originally Posted by Weststandwanab

It is not pointless for H.M.R.C. as they will set a precedent to pursue clubs Daan Sauff.



Yes, without doubt will it happen no chance.



Indeed but maybe Mark Daly would give it a go - failing that Alex Tommo will

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Matt Slater at the BBC also pushing SFA for comment.


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Originally Posted by Weststandwanab

It is not pointless for H.M.R.C. as they will set a precedent to pursue clubs Daan Sauff.

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Wasn't there already a precedent set with Arsenal?

http://www.theguardian.com/football/...wsstory.sport9


This was conveniently ignored when it came to Rangers, up until today.

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Originally Posted by Mcpakeisgod

It only says they have won the Appeal to actually take it back to court, not actually won the verdict

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No it doesn't. They have won the case.


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They cheated, they knew back then they were cheating, we knew they were cheating, the SFA knew there were cheating due to Campbell Ogilvie's direct employment with both at the same time...this just merely confirms it

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Originally Posted by Weststandwanab

- failing that Alex Tommo will

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As expected....

‏@alextomo 23m23 minutes ago
So Rangers are found to have won a series of titles whilst comprehensively cheating the tax man.

Will the players have to pay anything back, or was the liability against the company?
Remind me how much tax they avoided?

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Originally Posted by Billy Whizz

Will the players have to pay anything back, or was the liability against the company?
Remind me how much tax they avoided?

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http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/f...secret-1736859

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Originally Posted by Billy Whizz

Will the players have to pay anything back, or was the liability against the company?
Remind me how much tax they avoided?

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About £60m roughly.
Depends if HMRC want to Perdue them. They would need to prove they were part of the conspiracy. Players have the side letter to protect them.


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@glasgowsgreenw 2m2 minutes ago
Scottish Cup Winners 2008/09

Rangers 0 - 3 Falkirk

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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

About £60m roughly.
Depends if HMRC want to Perdue them. They would need to prove they were part of the conspiracy. Players have the side letter to protect them.


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Do you think there is the appetite for that?
This is a precedent, nothing more. Bar dipping their beaks into the Oldco Creditors Pot, HMRC are now finished with Rangers.

This legal ruling will be used to bash much bigger fish over the head with backdated tax demands though as always HMRC will run shy of taking on the real monsters like Vodafone who seem to sort their tax avoidance out by taking the Chancellor of the Exchequer for lunch.

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Originally Posted by HibeeMassive

Won't mean anything to The Rangers, but it does provide evidence that OldCo did in fact cheat.

Also clears the way for HMRC to pursue other football clubs who have used the same/similar practises in the past. Think there will be a few clubs with squeeky bums this morning...

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Were the Yams not involved in similar? ..... And as they avoided Liquidation is there a chance they may be liable to some degree?

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Originally Posted by Just Alf

Were the Yams not involved in similar? ..... And as they avoided Liquidation is there a chance they may be liable to some degree?

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Their CVA wiped that tax debt.

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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

Players have the side letter to protect them.

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I'm unsure as what the side letter protects against. If it protects them from paying tax on any monies earned via an EBT then so be it. That then also opens up a can of worms for their lawyers/agents as knowingly signing such a contract is against SFA rules.

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Originally Posted by AndyM_1875

Their CVA wiped that tax debt.

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Only the tax debt legally owed at the time:greengrin

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Originally Posted by AndyM_1875

Do you think there is the appetite for that?
This is a precedent, nothing more. Bar dipping their beaks into the Oldco Creditors Pot, HMRC are now finished with Rangers.

This legal ruling will be used to bash much bigger fish over the head with backdated tax demands though as always HMRC will run shy of taking on the real monsters like Vodafone who seem to sort their tax avoidance out by taking the Chancellor of the Exchequer for lunch.

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Similar scenario.

http://www.theguardian.com/football/...x-demands-hmrc


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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

“Furthermore, so far as the footballers are concerned, at least, it seems to us that if bonuses had not been paid they might well have taken their services elsewhere. We realise that the fifth respondent [RFC 2012] was in, potentially, a difficult financial position, competing for good players in an international market where other countries may not have the same rigorous approach to taxation as the United Kingdom. Nevertheless, the law is clear: the payments made in respect of footballers were in our view derived from their employment and thus the payments were emoluments or earnings.”

Important paragraph from judgement. They cheated to get better players.


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Pretty sure there was a quote from David Murray saying that was exactly the reason for the scheme. In saying that I am not sure how that worked in Billy Dodds case. :greengrin

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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

Nothing to the new club but makes a mockery of the Lord nimmo smith hearings.
There is nobody left to appeal.


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Agree. Carpet, brush, under.

Question!
Two possible answers!
How many times have we beaten rangers 3-0
since 2001:greengrin

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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

Similar scenario.

http://www.theguardian.com/football/...x-demands-hmrc


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I think HMRC have bigger issues to deal with having just been handed an absolute kicking by the Public Accounts Committee.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-34717035

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Originally Posted by AndyM_1875

Their CVA wiped that tax debt.

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Did they not pay up for that before they went under, and so kept themselves in business a wee bit longer? Though my head is wasted with several years of football finance, and initials upon initials - I might have confused that with some other initial they gave in to HMRC on.:greengrin

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Originally Posted by Kato

@glasgowsgreenw 2m2 minutes ago
Scottish Cup Winners 2008/09

Rangers 0 - 3 Falkirk

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:greengrin

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Originally Posted by Kato

Wasn't there already a precedent set with Arsenal?

http://www.theguardian.com/football/...wsstory.sport9


This was conveniently ignored when it came to Rangers, up until today.

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You are correct but Arsenal's resources are so much greater than that of Rangers, as was, it is easier, quicker and cheaper to establish the precedent against Rangers.

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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

About £60m roughly.
Depends if HMRC want to Perdue them. They would need to prove they were part of the conspiracy. Players have the side letter to protect them.


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And as they will be established as loans will the recipients be pursued for repayment.

Isn't it amazing how many Sevconians have suddenly remembered that they are a new club?:greengrin

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Originally Posted by s.a.m

Did they not pay up for that before they went under, and so kept themselves in business a wee bit longer? Though my head is wasted with several years of football finance, and initials upon initials - I might have confused that with some other initial they gave in to HMRC on.:greengrin

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They struck a deal to pay it off but didn't cough up.

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Originally Posted by Kato

They struck a deal to pay it of but didn't cough up.

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:aok:

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Originally Posted by Winston Ingram

Isn't it amazing how many Sevconians have suddenly remembered that they are a new club?:greengrin

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Slime is slippery.

See their loss of 7.5 million, does that take in the debt of 5 million to Mash? I am assuming the answer is no but just wanted clarification. If Charles Green wins his court case that could really push them over the edge.

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Originally Posted by AndyM_1875

I think HMRC have bigger issues to deal with having just been handed an absolute kicking by the Public Accounts Committee.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-34717035

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Isn't that kicking for not being tough on Tax Evasion? [emoji3]


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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

Isn't that kicking for not being tough on Tax Evasion? [emoji3]


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and being a generally useless dysfunctional organization as many business owners will attest.:greengrin

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Originally Posted by Liberal Hibby

Shouldn't Oldco now be stripped of the trophies and titles won while using EBTs?

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If so that makes us champions the season we finished 3rd in the mid 90s!

:-D

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Originally Posted by sambajustice

If so that makes us champions the season we finished 3rd in the mid 90s!

:-D

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Think EBT's scheme only started in 1999.


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@alextomo: @CQN yes - this surely places a questionmark over Nimmo Smith's judgement


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STV reporting that HMRC have won their Tax appeal against Rangers

http://sport.stv.tv/football/clubs/r...s-or-earnings/


So, if this is the indeed the case, now they have to decide

Are they Rangers or are they a brand new company with no connection to the old defunct lot?

Interesting :greengrin

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Originally Posted by CB_NO3

See their loss of 7.5 million, does that take in the debt of 5 million to Mash. I am assuming the answer is no but just wanted clarification. If Charles Green wins his court case that could really push them over the edge.

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The debt isn't included in the loss.

The loans were put into the company to cover the loss and allow them to continue trading.

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Originally Posted by AndyM_1875

Their CVA wiped that tax debt.

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ah well...... was a thought :wink:

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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

Think EBT's scheme only started in 1999.


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In terms of the Big Tax Case they are dealing with 2001 to 2010.

http://sport.stv.tv/football/clubs/r...mith-ebt-fine/



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A great opportunity to pay the £60m owed to the tax man and pretend they're oldco with an admission of officially cheating their way to honours.

As it says on the tin. Now we officially know they've been cheating for various honours, they need to have them stripped from their (now stopped) history. Even if not given to another club, Rangers didn't earn them.

I can hear the stampede of backtracking right now from there horrible fans, Glasgow media and the welts on Sportsound!! :faf:

They are indeed a NEW team,dont let the cavemen from the west tell you any differently, i think it's their low intelligence level which makes them believe they are the same team.

its like your beloved pet labrador, sadly died so you get a new one, you may call it the same name however, it is infact NEW, it isn't the same dog :greengrin

dirty smelly huns

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Originally Posted by Weststandwanab

And as they will be established as loans will the recipients be pursued for repayment.

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Don't think that's the case. The judgement establishes the payments as emoluments, not loans. Therefore they can't be repayable.

So HMRC win the big tax case. Old Co RFC are no more so no money can be recovered. But.... were Old Co directors guilty of fraud as they knowingly used an illegal scheme to avoid paying Income Tax. Can said Directors be charged with Tax Evasion ? DM could end up in the Big L with his pals Whyte, Green & King. Now that would funny

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Originally Posted by magpie1892

I'd love to be wrong but they're not close.

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So you think they will raise the £2.5m they need to see out the season?

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Originally Posted by CraigHibee

They are indeed a NEW team,dont let the cavemen from the west tell you any differently, i think it's their low intelligence level which makes them believe they are the same team.

its like your beloved pet labrador, sadly died so you get a new one, you may call it the same name however, it is infact NEW, it isn't the same dog :greengrin

dirty smelly huns

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So will they now be forced in to issuing an apology to the clubs who printed in their programmes that the old rangers had died and this was a new club (or something to that affect). I remember last season The Rangers threatening legal action over any club or paper that suggested they were a new club.

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Originally Posted by MB62

So will they now be forced in to issuing an apology to the clubs who printed in their programmes that the old rangers had died and this was a new club (or something to that affect). I remember last season The Rangers threatening legal action over any club or paper that suggested they were a new club.

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they won't admit to it bud even though everyone elses knows the script, imagine a full 2 page spread of apology from sevco in the paper, now that would be hillarious :greengrin

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Originally Posted by southsider

So HMRC win the big tax case. Old Co RFC are no more so no money can be recovered. But.... were Old Co directors guilty of fraud as they knowingly used an illegal scheme to avoid paying Income Tax. Can said Directors be charged with Tax Evasion ? DM could end up in the Big L with his pals Whyte, Green & King. Now that would funny

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1. OldCo aren't "no more". They are still in liquidation. The judgement means that HMRC will get more of the pot than they would have if the case had gone the other way. Conversely, the smaller creditors will get less.

2. the fraud case is a possibility. :agree:

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Originally Posted by givescotlandfreedom

as it says on the tin. Now we officially know they've been cheating for various honours, they need to have them stripped from their (now stopped) history. Even if not given to another club, rangers didn't earn them.

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this,this, this..won't ever happen sadly ,cos all the cowards running the show.

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Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

So you think they will raise the £2.5m they need to see out the season?

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It's £2.5m plus a possible £400k fine to spfl, £500k for Charlie's legal fees and Dave King and possibly Mike Ashley legal fees for contempt case in December. [emoji3]


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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

It's £2.5m plus a possible £400k fine to spfl, £500k for Charlie's legal fees and Dave King and possibly Mike Ashley legal fees for contempt case in December. [emoji3]


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You may be right. I'm not sure whether they have assumed all of that in their sums. Let's hope not. :greengrin

so this has no financial impact on Rangers because they were liquidated, fair enough so if that is the case then surely they can no longer claim to be Rangers anymore? Also funny to note the 2.5m needed to finish the season, 25 point deduction coming up!

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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

It's £2.5m plus a possible £400k fine to spfl, £500k for Charlie's legal fees and Dave King and possibly Mike Ashley legal fees for contempt case in December. [emoji3]


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Come on Ozzy... All that's not a problem with Dave King's millions at the ready! He's rolling in it... I mean he would never lie about anything, would he?! :greengrin

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Originally Posted by Meeko

so this has no financial impact on Rangers because they were liquidated, fair enough so if that is the case then surely they can no longer claim to be Rangers anymore? Also funny to note the 2.5m needed to finish the season, 25 point deduction coming up!

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.... that's a 10-pager which has been done to death a few times on here. :greengrin

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Originally Posted by givescotlandfreedom

As it says on the tin. Now we officially know they've been cheating for various honours, they need to have them stripped from their (now stopped) history. Even if not given to another club, Rangers didn't earn them.

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Couldn't agree more!

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Originally Posted by Meeko

so this has no financial impact on Rangers because they were liquidated, fair enough so if that is the case then surely they can no longer claim to be Rangers anymore? Also funny to note the 2.5m needed to finish the season, 25 point deduction coming up!

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It does have a financial implication.
Through the 5 way agreement and as a result of their uses of EBTs as decreed in the Lord Nimmo Smith verdict they have to stump up 400k to the SPFL.

They don't seem to have that money just now and given their other problems it might explain my a Jambo pal of mine lumped on Hibs to win the Championship last night.

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Originally Posted by AndyM_1875

It does have a financial implication.
Through the 5 way agreement and as a result of their uses of EBTs as decreed in the Lord Nimmo Smith verdict they have to stump up 400k to the SPFL.

They don't seem to have that money just now and given their other problems it might explain my a Jambo pal of mine lumped on Hibs to win the Championship last night.

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I bet when the deal was stitched up, they weren't expecting the Rangers to lose the big tax case...

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Originally Posted by Kato

As expected....

‏@alextomo 23m23 minutes ago
So Rangers are found to have won a series of titles whilst comprehensively cheating the tax man.

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He doesn't hang about. Good man

http://blogs.channel4.com/alex-thomsons-view/

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Originally Posted by AndyM_1875

It does have a financial implication.
Through the 5 way agreement and as a result of their uses of EBTs as decreed in the Lord Nimmo Smith verdict they have to stump up 400k to the SPFL.

They don't seem to have that money just now and given their other problems it might explain my a Jambo pal of mine lumped on Hibs to win the Championship last night.

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That's still to be decided. Rangers appealled, remember.

http://sport.stv.tv/football/clubs/r...mith-ebt-fine/

So have I got this right? EBTs were a tax avoidance loophole back then but the way it was implemented - regular payments to effectively top up wages - was illegal?

What are the chances DM was innocent and did not know this? More chance of TRFC winning this season's League Cup 😀

Remember he said he was "duped" by Whyte? Yeah' right! Hopefully the upcoming court case washes that dirty linen in public, CG and CW know where those 'bodies are buried'.

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Originally Posted by givescotlandfreedom

As it says on the tin. Now we officially know they've been cheating for various honours, they need to have them stripped from their (now stopped) history. Even if not given to another club, Rangers didn't earn them.

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Not that I am sticking up for them however surely they were cheating the minute they went into administration?

Same could be said for the yams, Dundee, Livi, Motherwell etc. who were paying players without having the money to do so?

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Originally Posted by ACLeith

So have I got this right? EBTs were a tax avoidance loophole back then but the way it was implemented - regular payments to effectively top up wages - was illegal?

What are the chances DM was innocent and did not know this? More chance of TRFC winning this season's League Cup 

Remember he said he was "duped" by Whyte? Yeah' right! Hopefully the upcoming court case washes that dirty linen in public, CG and CW know where those 'bodies are buried'.

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One would have to prove that SDM, and others, set out with the intention of defrauding HMRC. Given that, as EBT's were an accepted way of tax avoidance at that time, that would be difficult. RFC would say, rightly IMO, that they relied on professional advice.

What they have done is neglectful, which is an HMRC "offence". However, it's a big leap from there to it being criminal.

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Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

That's still to be decided. Rangers appealled, remember.

http://sport.stv.tv/football/clubs/r...mith-ebt-fine/

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I stand corrected, but looks likely a substantial fine will be delivered.

So they need 2.5m to see the season out? I am quite sure they will pull that in via gate receipts.

Say 12 league games to go, 10,000 walk ups at £20 a pop gives you 200k per game. Will be tight however I reckon they will manage it. Unfortunately.

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Originally Posted by KeithTheHibby

Not that I am sticking up for them however surely they were cheating the minute they went into administration?

Same could be said for the yams, Dundee, Livi, Motherwell etc. who were paying players without having the money to do so?

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They were able to pay players whilst in administration, out of the funds they had available.

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Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

One would have to prove that SDM, and others, set out with the intention of defrauding HMRC. Given that, as EBT's were an accepted way of tax avoidance at that time, that would be difficult. RFC would say, rightly IMO, that they relied on professional advice.

What they have done is neglectful, which is an HMRC "offence". However, it's a big leap from there to it being criminal.

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Just to note that David Murray used EBTs in other bits of his Murray Group companies, most of whom he liquidated earlier on this year leaving only a trail of bank debt.

Is it time to create three different threads to help us keep up with all the Rangers/ Sevco stories:

1. Rangers liquidation & Big tax case.
2. Sevco v Mash
3. Imminent Administration of Sevco

We might need a fourth for all the other madcap stories from the Big Hoose.

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Originally Posted by givescotlandfreedom

As it says on the tin. Now we officially know they've been cheating for various honours, they need to have them stripped from their (now stopped) history. Even if not given to another club, Rangers didn't earn them.

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By my reckoning they won the league by cheating in

2002/03 ahead of Celtic
2004/05 ahead of Celtic
2008/09 ahead of Celtic

The Scottish Cup in

2001/02 beating Celtic
2002/03 beating Dundee
2007/08 beating Queen of the South
2008/09 beating Falkirk

The League Cup in

2001/02 beating Ayr Utd
2002/03 beating Celtic
2004/05 beating Motherwell
2007/08 beating Dundee Utd

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Originally Posted by KeithTheHibby

So they need 2.5m to see the season out? I am quite sure they will pull that in easily via gate receipts.

Say 12 league games to go, 10,000 walk ups at £20 a pop gives you 200k per game. Will be tight however I reckon they will manage it. Unfortunately.

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I would expect that they will have already included expected income from gates when calculating the shortfall just as they will have estimated expenses.

Maybe they will get more from sold strips than they estimated. :greengrin

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Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

One would have to prove that SDM, and others, set out with the intention of defrauding HMRC. Given that, as EBT's were an accepted way of tax avoidance at that time, that would be difficult. RFC would say, rightly IMO, that they relied on professional advice.

What they have done is neglectful, which is an HMRC "offence". However, it's a big leap from there to it being criminal.

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Does that not presume what the advice was though? Maybe they were told it was wrong and chose to ignore it? Just guessing mind :wink:

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Originally Posted by KeithTheHibby

So they need 2.5m to see the season out? I am quite sure they will pull that in via gate receipts.

Say 12 league games to go, 10,000 walk ups at £20 a pop gives you 200k per game. Will be tight however I reckon they will manage it. Unfortunately.

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That's over and above receipts.

"The forecast identifies that the group will require up to £2.5m by way of debt or equity funding by the end of season
2015/2016 in order to meet its liabilities as they fall due".

Also:-

"The forecast indicates that an initial tranche of funds will be required in December 2015."

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Originally Posted by PatHead

I would expect that they will have already included expected income from gates when calculating the shortfall just as they will have estimated expenses.

Maybe they will get more from soiled strips than they estimated. :greengrin

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Sorted that for you :wink:

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Originally Posted by Golden Fleece

By my reckoning they won the league by cheating in

2002/03 ahead of Celtic
2004/05 ahead of Celtic
2008/09 ahead of Celtic

The Scottish Cup in

2001/02 beating Celtic
2002/03 beating Dundee
2007/08 beating Queen of the South
2008/09 beating Falkirk

The League Cup in

2001/02 beating Ayr Utd
2002/03 beating Celtic
2004/05 beating Motherwell
2007/08 beating Dundee Utd

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Personally I think trophies should be withheld. It would be unfair on clubs who were beaten in earlier rounds otherwise.

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Originally Posted by ACLeith

Does that not presume what the advice was though? Maybe they were told it was wrong and chose to ignore it? Just guessing mind :wink:

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Going back to the BBC (?) documentary a couple of years ago, the scheme was devised by an ex-porn star, who seemed to take full responsibility for it.

However, yours is a fair point. The Courts would have to prove it, though.

In one corner, a porn star. In the other, a Hun. :greengrin

Tom English getting it tight on twitter for calling them cheats.

It's a hoot!

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Originally Posted by KeithTheHibby

So they need 2.5m to see the season out? I am quite sure they will pull that in via gate receipts.

Say 12 league games to go, 10,000 walk ups at £20 a pop gives you 200k per game. Will be tight however I reckon they will manage it. Unfortunately.

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I think that the 2.5m is in addition to the income they're expecting during the remainder of the season i.e. after the future walk ups have handed over the cash.

I wouldn't be surprised if there's a scheme set up akin to FOH which would lead to the supporters coughing up a lot of the deficit in exchange for a promise of shares at some future date. Once that's taken into account, I think one or more of the directors (not likely to be King) will make up the deficit even though I think the total required will be more than 2.5m.

Like you I think they'll scrape through to the end of the season. Finding funds for the warchest the fans will be expecting next season and doing up the neglected building maintenance will be a new challenge.

It's on a knife edge so I may change my expectation if some new nasty emerges in the next few months. Ashley insisting on his loan being repaid could scupper the whole shebang.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ACLeith

So have I got this right? EBTs were a tax avoidance loophole back then but the way it was implemented - regular payments to effectively top up wages - was illegal?

What are the chances DM was innocent and did not know this? More chance of TRFC winning this season's League Cup 

Remember he said he was "duped" by Whyte? Yeah' right! Hopefully the upcoming court case washes that dirty linen in public, CG and CW know where those 'bodies are buried'.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

One would have to prove that SDM, and others, set out with the intention of defrauding HMRC. Given that, as EBT's were an accepted way of tax avoidance at that time, that would be difficult. RFC would say, rightly IMO, that they relied on professional advice.

What they have done is neglectful, which is an HMRC "offence". However, it's a big leap from there to it being criminal.

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As far as the law of the land is concerned that might be up to the courts to decide.

However the under the SFA rules the side contracts/letters, upping the wages of the employee, are not allowed. All remuneration must declared to them. SDM, agents, lawyers, players avoided declaring the side letters to the SFA.

If they thought they were legal, why not declare them to the SFA?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AndyM_1875

It does have a financial implication.
Through the 5 way agreement and as a result of their uses of EBTs as decreed in the Lord Nimmo Smith verdict they have to stump up 400k to the SPFL.

They don't seem to have that money just now and given their other problems it might explain my a Jambo pal of mine lumped on Hibs to win the Championship last night.

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Is his name Bryan? :greengrin

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Originally Posted by PatHead

Personally I think trophies should be withheld. It would be unfair on clubs who were beaten in earlier rounds otherwise.

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Ok, taking the league out of the equation.


The Scottish Cup in

2001/02 beating Berwick Rangers, Hibernian, Forfar, Partick Thistle and Celtic
2002/03 beating Arbroath, Ayr Utd, Dunfrmline, Motherwell and Dundee
2007/08 beating East Stirling, Hibernian, Partick Thistle, St Johnstone and Queen of the South
2008/09 beating St Johnstone, Forfar, Hamilton, St Mirren and Falkirk

The League Cup in

2001/02 beating Airdrie, Ross County, Celtic and Ayr Utd
2002/03 beating Hibernian, Dunfermline, Hearts and Celtic
2004/05 beating Aberdeen, Celtic, Dundee Utd and Motherwell
2007/08 beating East Fife, Moterwell, Hearts and Dundee Utd

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

Going back to the BBC (?) documentary a couple of years ago, the scheme was devised by an ex-porn star, who seemed to take full responsibility for it.

However, yours is a fair point. The Courts would have to prove it, though.

In one corner, a porn star. In the other, a Hun. :greengrin

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I'd forgotten about that CWG, what a tag team that would be :greengrin. Presumably could only be proven with documentary evidence? I do wonder if it exists, no point before the BTC was settled, maybe not worth it anyway now. Depending how the CW/CG/Uncle Tom Cobley and all case develops, DM's (I simply refuse to use SDM!) integrity and standing in society may plummet even further and this could be added to it - here's hoping :agree:.

@Oldfirmfacts1: As the fallout from the HMRC verdict continues, Rangers fans insist they're a new club and Celtic fans insist it's the same club.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Meeko

so this has no financial impact on Rangers because they were liquidated, fair enough so if that is the case then surely they can no longer claim to be Rangers anymore? Also funny to note the 2.5m needed to finish the season, 25 point deduction coming up!

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Is a 25 point deduction likely?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

Going back to the BBC (?) documentary a couple of years ago, the scheme was devised by an ex-porn star, who seemed to take full responsibility for it.

However, yours is a fair point. The Courts would have to prove it, though.

In one corner, a porn star. In the other, a Hun. :greengrin

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In one corner a despicable pervert who prays on the lowlife of society gaining his immoral earnings. In the other a porn star.

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Originally Posted by GordonHFC

In one corner a despicable pervert who prays on the lowlife of society gaining his immoral earnings. In the other a porn star.

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:faf::faf:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mentalhibee

Is a 25 point deduction likely?

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Probably not but ssh

Old Co can appeal to a higher court can they not ? But, as my auld granny used to say "whey pays for that bawheid". But if CW can get legal aid.......

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GordonHFC

In one corner a despicable pervert who prays on the lowlife of society gaining his immoral earnings. In the other a porn star.

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:greengrin

Jim Traynors last column where he has a go at the RangersTaxCase blog.
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/f...spaper-1470050

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Golden Fleece

Ok, taking the league out of the equation.


The Scottish Cup in

2001/02 beating Berwick Rangers, Hibernian, Forfar, Partick Thistle and Celtic
2002/03 beating Arbroath, Ayr Utd, Dunfrmline, Motherwell and Dundee
2007/08 beating East Stirling, Hibernian, Partick Thistle, St Johnstone and Queen of the South
2008/09 beating St Johnstone, Forfar, Hamilton, St Mirren and Falkirk

The League Cup in

2001/02 beating Airdrie, Ross County, Celtic and Ayr Utd
2002/03 beating Hibernian, Dunfermline, Hearts and Celtic
2004/05 beating Aberdeen, Celtic, Dundee Utd and Motherwell
2007/08 beating East Fife, Moterwell, Hearts and Dundee Utd

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I think it's only fair that we get given that particular cup...:agree:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Meeko

so this has no financial impact on Rangers because they were liquidated, fair enough so if that is the case then surely they can no longer claim to be Rangers anymore? Also funny to note the 2.5m needed to finish the season, 25 point deduction coming up!

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Not a chance they go into administration this season. They'll get the 2.5 million easily to see them through.

Mark Daly's take on things

https://t.co/i8j3bJUnn5