Hibs and the Irish question

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Originally Posted by Kato

His views on Hearts don't stack up. If their identity is merely that of "Edinburgh's premier club" where does the thick seam of anti-catholicism come from and why doesn't he address that?

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Thats obvious, because Edinburgh in general had a thick seam of anti cahtolicism, it was not controversial, it was mainstream. The subtext of being the Edinburgh team is that they represented respectable, Scottish, prebyterian Edinburgh folk. Hibs were the outsiders, the 'other', the immigrants etc.

Its obviously not the same now, but it has undoubtedly shaped the nature of the rivalry, and was the dominant dynamic for decades

And when i speak about Hearts identity, i mean how they see themselves. How true it is, or isnt, is obviously up for debate.

But to hearts fans, they are Edinburgh's team. Hibs are catholic / and or Leith.

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Originally Posted by CentreLine

Ha! So it turns out Mothers Day was actually a religious celebration and nothing to do with yer actual mother.
500 years ago and more, people would walk miles to attend the (mother) church where they were baptised and reacquaint themselves with the people in the place of their birth.
When it went off to America in the 18th century it came back as another, commercially driven, celebration of our mothers. Not a bad thing but definitely interesting, for me at least.

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Indeed, nice one.

I always had the cynical view that it was down to selling cards and flowers ;)

It's like the chat about breakfast being the most important meal of the day. It was an advertising slogan coined by Kelloggs back in the day that has stuck pretty well!!

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Originally Posted by Kato

This again.

The first two things Harry Swan did was brought in a Catholic Monsignor as club chaplin and had green goal nets installed. The Harp on the outside of the ground was removed as that part of the ground was being demolished 20 years into Swan's tenure. Funnily we are still called Hibernian and still play in green and white, things Harry Swan had 25 years to change but didn't.

Hearts are barry, says you over and over.

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Spot on m8,this pap gets regurgitated so many times you would think by now at lone of them would do some research before posting drivel.

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Originally Posted by James Stephen

Thats obvious, because Edinburgh in general had a thick seam of anti cahtolicism, it was not controversial, it was mainstream. The subtext of being the Edinburgh team is that they represented respectable, Scottish, prebyterian Edinburgh folk. Hibs were the outsiders, the 'other', the immigrants etc.

Its obviously not the same now, but it has undoubtedly shaped the nature of the rivalry, and was the dominant dynamic for decades

And when i speak about Hearts identity, i mean how they see themselves. How true it is, or isnt, is obviously up for debate.

But to hearts fans, they are Edinburgh's team. Hibs are catholic / and or Leith.

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Wonder what Hearts supporting Catholics would say to that.

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Originally Posted by Fanforlife

Wobder what Hearts supporting Catholics would say to that.

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I’ve often wondered what Catholic hearts fans think of the sectarian stuff some of their own fans come out with.

I’ve also wondered what Protestant Celtic fans (and there are some) think of the ‘Up the Ra’ stuff.

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Originally Posted by Pagan Hibernia

I’ve often wondered what Catholic hearts fans think of the sectarian stuff some of their own fans come out with.

I’ve also wondered what Protestant Celtic fans (and there are some) think of the ‘Up the Ra’ stuff.

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Mind boggling eh! Actually got a couple of RC Hearts Fans Pals who are into the RA' stuff, was same myself regarding Republican Music etc but grew out of it thankfully.

Usual "folk" songs belted out alongside "Up the RA" by the plastics

Thankfully by and large that nonsense has been eliminated from ER whilst we acknowledge our heritage proudly on our chest

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Originally Posted by Fanforlife

Wonder what Hearts supporting Catholics would say to that.

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I did say its obviously not the same now. I suspect they would say its all in the past.

But equally, their fans did disrupt a minutes silence for the pope, and do have a sectrian element to some of their suppprt that cant be denied.

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Originally Posted by Fanforlife

Spot on m8,this pap gets regurgitated so many times you would think by now at lone of them would do some research before posting drivel.

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So who decided to replace the harp as hibs badge, and when? And what were the reasons for the decision?

I'm more than happy to do research and keep learning, so if you know i would be really interested to learn?

We should be proud of our heritage imo


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Originally Posted by Fanforlife

Wonder what Hearts supporting Catholics would say to that.

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I imagine they would say what most non-catholic Hibs fans say, they’re glad that this rubbish has very little traction with the Edinburgh clubs. That’s despite the best efforts of a minority few. And of course the two cheeks who can’t understand what it means not to have a religious divide.

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Originally Posted by James Stephen

So who decided to replace the harp as hibs badge, and when? And what were the reasons for the decision?

I'm more than happy to do research and keep learning, so if you know i would be really interested to learn?

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Read the chapters in Lugton’s book which covers the period in question.

Then do a search on line and you’ll quickly find a very good piece written by another Hibs historian which completely debunks the whole Harry Swan, changing the colours, ditching the Harp, the name. It just not the case.

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Originally Posted by superfurryhibby

Read the chapters in Lugton’s book which covers the period in question.

Then do a search on line and you’ll quickly find a very good piece written by another Hibs historian which completely debunks the whole Harry Swan, changing the colours, ditching the Harp, the name. It just not the case.

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So genuine question, what happened to the harp and who decided to ditch it? I know the whole construction thing about the harps above the entrances, but its undeniable that they were not replaced, and that the harp disappeared from Hibs during Swans reign, never to be seen again for 40 odd years.

Ive read both the article and the books, and i agree that the whole Swan was anti-catholic myth, is a myth. But like most myths, its rooted in actions. Swan undeniably was less beholden to history and tradition than any other Hibs onwer, before or since, and i think its entirely probable that he changed these things because he wanted to broaden the clubs appeal beyond the traditional suppprt. The fact a thistle was then put in its place, heavily suggests this.

The colours change is from another Hibs history (one of John Mackays books, who said that when Swan changed the shirts from the green jerseys, to the arsenal style white sleeves, he wanted to go the whole way and change to red, but that it never happened (for reasons not fully explained).

None of this is saying Swan was some nefarious character, and it could easily be argued he was correct to do what he did, but to say the guy who owned and was chairmam had nothing to do the decision to ditch the harp and sanitise the club for more mainstream Scottish sensibilities seems odd, given how much credit he gets for the obvious successes he had during his reign.

Can you imagine if Ron Gordon had wanted to scrap the badge, and change the traditional home strip, what the reaction would have been? It would be a big deal. These moves by Swan must have been even more so.

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Originally Posted by James Stephen

So genuine question, what happened to the harp and who decided to ditch it? I know the whole construction thing about the harps above the entrances, but its undeniable that they were not replaced, and that the harp disappeared from Hibs during Swans reign, never to be seen again for 40 odd years.

Ive read both the article and the books, and i agree that the whole Swan was anti-catholic myth, is a myth. But like most myths, its rooted in actions. Swan undeniably was less beholden to history and tradition than any other Hibs onwer, before or since, and i think its entirely probable that he changed these things because he wanted to broaden the clubs appeal beyond the traditional suppprt. The fact a thistle was then put in its place, heavily suggests this.

The colours change is from another Hibs history (one of John Mackays books, who said that when Swan changed the shirts from the green jerseys, to the arsenal style white sleeves, he wanted to go the whole way and change to red, but that it never happened (for reasons not fully explained).

None of this is saying Swan was some nefarious character, and it could easily be argued he was correct to do what he did, but to say the guy who owned and was chairmam had nothing to do the decision to ditch the harp and sanitise the club for more mainstream Scottish sensibilities seems odd, given how much credit he gets for the obvious successes he had during his reign.

Can you imagine if Ron Gordon had wanted to scrap the badge, and change the traditional home strip, what the reaction would have been? It would be a big deal. These moves by Swan must have been even more so.

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The harp was not “ditched” as you put it. It was removed from the entrance due to building work, a new harp mosaic was then commissioned by Harry Swan and was put in the boardroom. When he died it was presented to his widow.

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Originally Posted by CentreLine

I imagine they would say what most non-catholic Hibs fans say, they’re glad that this rubbish has very little traction with the Edinburgh clubs. That’s despite the best efforts of a minority few. And of course the two cheeks who can’t understand what it means not to have a religious divide.

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Hear hear!

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Originally Posted by Ringothedog

The harp was not “ditched” as you put it. It was removed from the entrance due to building work, a new harp mosaic was then commissioned by Harry Swan and was put in the boardroom. When he died it was presented to his widow.

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Harry from 1931 presided over Hibernian in troubled times, not just in Europe with the rise of Hitler, but also in Edinburgh.
In the pre WW2 years there was certainly anti Catholic views even from some local fascist politicians

The Protestant Action Society with the slogan, No Popery and policies to "assist" Irish Catholics to "go home"
Now this Society had 11 councillors elected to the City Council up at the Chambers.
Most of those councillors represented wards/seats in Leith..... Sad i know !.
As i read about this period and the Morningside Riots and tying it in with the Swan controversy /conspiracies.
I think Harry thought he had a dilemma .
War came and men and women returning turned their back on groups like John Cormack and his sectarian band of bigots and those that believed all their ills was the fault of "Irish Catholics". (many who had never been to Ireland !)
John Cormack could be described as an early Ian Paisley/Jack Glass ,but more dangerous.

Harry was in no way anti Catholic,I just think he thought small changes (not replacing Harp on public display) and the crown and ball badge would benefit Hibs.and gather more local support.
Changing our colours was the hardest. Even if he was mulling that decision over, it would have led to a mass exodus of fans .So i can only guess he had very good council on that particular/possible change.

Even as a wee boy, i remember men singing on the St Giles Bus "we'll hang Harry Swan wae a rope aroond his neck"
I think also among fans then was an anti masonic feeling .
Harry did appoint a Catholic priest,who was his dear friend as a councillor at the club for players who might have sought such spiritual or other help.

Harry also i understand bore the coffin at St Patrick's of one of the last Irish members of our board which i believe also had a wreath in the shape of a broken harp.
Harry was a visionary,no one doubts that. His tenure at Hibs was certainly a turbulent and fruitful one.

Finally,you can tell i am not a Hibernian historian, but sharing thoughts and views i have had over many years:greengrin
GGTTH

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Originally Posted by Ringothedog

The harp was not “ditched” as you put it. It was removed from the entrance due to building work, a new harp mosaic was then commissioned by Harry Swan and was put in the boardroom. When he died it was presented to his widow.

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So basically harp was removed and hidden away from Hibs fans and other visitors to Easter Road until several decades later fans managed to get a harp integrated into a new Hibernian FC badge . Then a talented Hibs fan makes a copy of mosaic which is now in Ireland .
Swan was before my time but I certainly remember hearing lots of comments from Hibs and ex Hibs fans about how he was keen to remove / reduce our Irishness . This was a very commonly held opinion and had nothing to do with a few comments on Celtic fan websites in 21st century . When Tom Hart owned Hibs there were also rumours about changing club colours and there was a clampdown on traditional songs being sung at ER . Swan and Hart would probably have justified their ideas with commercial arguments . It`s then up tp supporters to decide which is more important - commercial reasons or respecting history though of course sometimes the two can go together .

The Ireland that was presented to me today at Celtic Park bears absolutely no resemblance to the Ireland that I spend a lot of time in every year and love very much with with my in laws.

I’m glad Hibs steer well clear of having to try too hard.

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Originally Posted by James Stephen

The red colour change is from one of Mackays Hibs books (cant recall which one, apologies). The harp was quietly removed, and replaced with firstly some random thistle, and then by the crown and ball badge.

Hibs were literally known for decades as the green jerseys. It was Swan who introduced the white.

If you dont think Swan got rid of the harp, what do you think happened, and why do you think it was removed and replaced?

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So no primary sources then

MacKay says the proposed change of colours and name were "rumours", he doesnt quote anything substantial at all. Since Swan actually installed green nets I'd take those rumours with a pinch of salt.

We didn't have a badge on our strips for decades. If never seen any random thistle associated with Hibs so would like to see where that was our badge. The crown and thistle thing came well after Harrower took over, supposedly ripped off from Real Madrid after we beat them.

Your also keenly avoiding the context of the Harp being removed from the entrance. The whole entrance was demolished and replaced. A new mosaic Harp was commissioned from a craftsman in Ireland and shipped over to Easter Road where it was hung in the boardroom where every visitor, opposing director and opposing chairman would see it. Why are you excluding this context?

You claim it was done for business reasons to expand the support. Why would he do that when it might easily displease our existing support?

Swan was a season ticket holder for years before buying a debenture when the new stand was built in 1924. He was the largest shareholder by 1932 and became Chairman in 1934. The entrances above which the Harp was came down in 1956. If was cashing in on the big crowds which the famous five brought its weird timing as the Famous Five were split up. He had 22 years to bring down the Harp. A long time to wait for that particular move to make the club more "acceptable" and a long after WW2 to cash in on post war unity. Doesn't stack up.

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Originally Posted by James Stephen

Thats obvious, because Edinburgh in general had a thick seam of anti cahtolicism, it was not controversial, it was mainstream. The subtext of being the Edinburgh team is that they represented respectable, Scottish, prebyterian Edinburgh folk. Hibs were the outsiders, the 'other', the immigrants etc.

Its obviously not the same now, but it has undoubtedly shaped the nature of the rivalry, and was the dominant dynamic for decades

And when i speak about Hearts identity, i mean how they see themselves. How true it is, or isnt, is obviously up for debate.

But to hearts fans, they are Edinburgh's team. Hibs are catholic / and or Leith.

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If you see their bigotry but want to see it as "respectable" or have it metaphorically expressed within the phrase "Edinburgh's Premier club" you don't do yourself any favours.

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Originally Posted by Kato

If you see their bigotry but want to see it as "respectable" or have it metaphorically expressed within the phrase "Edinburgh's Premier club" you don't do yourself any favours.

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I don’t think JS has said that at all. :confused:

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Originally Posted by marinello59

I don’t think JS has said that at all. :confused:

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Didn't he?

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Originally Posted by Kato

Didn't he?

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Nope

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Originally Posted by marinello59

Nope

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Look at his initial description of Hearts "rock solid" identity, then his expansion upon it when I asked why their obvious bigoted section was omitted.

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Originally Posted by Kato

Look at his initial description of Hearts "rock solid" identity, then his expansion upon it when I asked why their obvious bigoted section was omitted.

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I’ve just looked at the post you quoted. I’ll bow out, he can defend himself. :greengrin

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Originally Posted by Ringothedog

The harp was not “ditched” as you put it. It was removed from the entrance due to building work, a new harp mosaic was then commissioned by Harry Swan and was put in the boardroom. When he died it was presented to his widow.

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It ceased to be Hibs club crest no? So it was discarded surely?

Or did everyone just forget, and it took 3 crest changes and 45 years for anyone to notice?

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Originally Posted by Kato

So no primary sources then

MacKay says the proposed change of colours and name were "rumours", he doesnt quote anything substantial at all. Since Swan actually installed green nets I'd take those rumours with a pinch of salt.

We didn't have a badge on our strips for decades. If never seen any random thistle associated with Hibs so would like to see where that was our badge. The crown and thistle thing came well after Harrower took over, supposedly ripped off from Real Madrid after we beat them.

Your also keenly avoiding the context of the Harp being removed from the entrance. The whole entrance was demolished and replaced. A new mosaic Harp was commissioned from a craftsman in Ireland and shipped over to Easter Road where it was hung in the boardroom where every visitor, opposing director and opposing chairman would see it. Why are you excluding this context?

You claim it was done for business reasons to expand the support. Why would he do that when it might easily displease our existing support?

Swan was a season ticket holder for years before buying a debenture when the new stand was built in 1924. He was the largest shareholder by 1932 and became Chairman in 1934. The entrances above which the Harp was came down in 1956. If was cashing in on the big crowds which the famous five brought its weird timing as the Famous Five were split up. He had 22 years to bring down the Harp. A long time to wait for that particular move to make the club more "acceptable" and a long after WW2 to cash in on post war unity. Doesn't stack up.

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But you accept Swan changed the shirt and the colours (from green, to green and white)? And you accept the harp disappeared from the stadium and the was no longer the club crest under his ownership?

As for the thistle, i have seen it on matchday programmes from the period, so that is a primary source.

Why would he do it for business reasons? Because he thought that irishness/catholicism would put non catholics off. Im sure he would have seen it as moving with the times.

Ultimately we will never know his motivations, but it is pretty much a fact that the harp disappeared as Hibs crest under him - so someone on his board, and then subsequent Hibs owners obviously felt something against it as a symbol of Hibernian. What that might have been, is obviously open to interpretation, and we will all have our own thoughts of what that might be.

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Originally Posted by Kato

If you see their bigotry but want to see it as "respectable" or have it metaphorically expressed within the phrase "Edinburgh's Premier club" you don't do yourself any favours.

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I dont follow.

Im describing how i see Hearts identity, from their perspective. Their bigotry was respectable, it was normal, mainstream, and instituional in every aspect of Scottish society. It was official policy of the Church of Scotland, the very institution some historians see as Scotland's de facto government until the latter 20th century.

The OP highlights a subject that I've thought long and hard about over the years.

By DNA I am 69% Irish, 25% Scottish and the rest Scandinavian. I have been a Hibs supporter for 50 years of my life and was brought up within a mile from the Holy Ground.

By birth and nationality I have only ever considered myself Scottish and have travelled far and wide supporting the Scottish national team.

However, I celebrate St Patrick's day far more than St Andrews day. I love Ireland, but I really don't understand why St Andrews Day is not celebrated in the same way and that hurts me. Maybe because we're still tied into a union responsible for despicable crimes the world over - sorry I digress, the last bit should be for THG board.

Hibs should celebrate both St Patrick's day and St Andrews day in equal measure, but in reality they do none.

Glory Glory to the Hibees.

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Originally Posted by Kato

Look at his initial description of Hearts "rock solid" identity, then his expansion upon it when I asked why their obvious bigoted section was omitted.

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I was describing their rock solid sense of their own identity. Its never changed, ive got a book written in the 50s by a hearts supporting journalist, where he literally describes just that, they are 'Edina's darlings' (he even, rather patronisingly, suggests that even 'their friends' at Hibs wouldn't object to that description, such is the affectiom of the city for their favourites (im paraphrasing, but the language is very much of that ilk)