Taking the knee

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Originally Posted by 147lothian

:top marks Nailed it!

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Absolutely, 100%
Well said sir 👍

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Originally Posted by The Pointer

When they stop this faux-American nonsense it won't be soon enough. It's got nothing to do with us, living in one of the most tolerant countries in the world and has put race relations back 50 years.

Keep politics out of sport and get on with the football. If they're still doing this when crowds are allowed back I hope it is roundly condemned for the virtue signalling nonsense it is.

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May I ask what age you are?

Britain is not a tolerant country in the slightest! This island is inherently racist, and only our blasé attitude towards it makes it seem we as a nation are tolerant.

The idea that the publicity of racism has set the issue back 50 years is nonsense.... it only seems like that to those who have ignored the issue until it’s no longer ignorable.

Racism is not a political issue either, is an issue of respect for your fellow man, no matter the colour of their skin or ethnic origins!

Football players taking a knee or making a stand highlights the issue further and as role models to many young people they are setting an example that no one is impressed by racist attitudes, this is the whole point of a role model!

Believing that this is an American issue too is nonsense.... it’s like saying it’s not your concern if atrocities are happening somewhere else, just ignorance.

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Originally Posted by BlackSheep

May I ask what age you are?

Britain is not a tolerant country in the slightest! This island is inherently racist, and only our blasé attitude towards it makes it seem we as a nation are tolerant.

The idea that the publicity of racism has set the issue back 50 years is nonsense.... it only seems like that to those who have ignored the issue until it’s no longer ignorable.

Racism is not a political issue either, is an issue of respect for your fellow man, no matter the colour of their skin or ethnic origins!

Football players taking a knee or making a stand highlights the issue further and as role models to many young people they are setting an example that no one is impressed by racist attitudes, this is the whole point of a role model!

Believing that this is an American issue too is nonsense.... it’s like saying it’s not your concern if atrocities are happening somewhere else, just ignorance.

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I agree with all that you say but why are you asking the poster to give his age. What relevance does that have to the issue?

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Originally Posted by Seveno

I agree with all that you say but why are you asking the poster to give his age. What relevance does that have to the issue?

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Because old people are racist. Everyone knows that.

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Originally Posted by Carheenlea

Hibs players will now stand rather than kneel

https://www.hibernianfc.co.uk/article/hibs-racism

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Good. But proof is in the pudding and I Hibs are as pro active in calling out the Old Firm when they’ve got 4000 knuckledraggers belting out pish for 90 minutes at Easter Road

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Originally Posted by Seveno

I agree with all that you say but why are you asking the poster to give his age. What relevance does that have to the issue?

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The reason I ask the posters age was just out of interest as I do find that folk from older generations more commonly think racism is a non issue in this country... which I think stems from my point that most of those who do think there hasn’t been an issue grew up when racism wasn’t viewed in the same light as it is these days.

It will take a long long time but the current publicity and changing attitudes will hopefully work it’s way down through future generations.

I have older relatives who still use the term ‘coloured’ and think it’s acceptable... ignorance is bliss in their eyes!

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Originally Posted by BlackSheep

The reason I ask the posters age was just out of interest as I do find that folk from older generations more commonly think racism is a non issue in this country... which I think stems from my point that most of those who do think there hasn’t been an issue grew up when racism wasn’t viewed in the same light as it is these days.

It will take a long long time but the current publicity and changing attitudes will hopefully work it’s way down through future generations.

I have older relatives who still use the term ‘coloured’ and think it’s acceptable... ignorance is bliss in their eyes!

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What total b*****ds!!! They must be like me in that they were taught that saying coloured was polite as opposed to "black" which was viewed as racist. Instead of being as intolerant as those you criticise, try to understand why people might do or say certain things. Believe me, it'll stand you in good stead.

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Originally Posted by Peevemor

What total b*****ds!!! They must be like me in that they were taught that saying coloured was polite as opposed to "black" which was viewed as racist. Instead of being as intolerant as those you criticise, try to understand why people might do or say certain things. Believe me, it'll stand you in good stead.

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Difficulty is, when corrected they shrug their shoulders and say ‘whatever’... I am well aware of why they may say or do the things they do, it’s the lack of effort to change that is the real issue.... I am also of a generation that was told to say coloured over black, but as I am aware that using that term is no longer acceptable, I no longer use it!

Are you saying that because people were raised to believe one way was better that they should be excused for still using it? That really is ignorant and is a huge part of the problem.

I kind of explained that in my last post, showing I fully understand their reasons.

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Originally Posted by BlackSheep

Difficulty is, when corrected they shrug their shoulders and say ‘whatever’... I am well aware of why they may say or do the things they do, it’s the lack of effort to change that is the real issue.... I am also of a generation that was told to say coloured over black, but as I am aware that using that term is no longer acceptable, I no longer use it!

Are you saying that because people were raised to believe one way was better that they should be excused for still using it? That really is ignorant and is a huge part of the problem.

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No. I mentioned trying to understand why.

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Originally Posted by Peevemor

No. I mentioned trying to understand why.

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Enlighten me.... it seems you think I don’t understand that due to their upbringing, education, socialisation during an era that viewed certain terms acceptable, that are now not acceptable and their views are based on old rhetoric and in turn that by asking someone’s age to ascertain some perspective on their views seems to say I don’t understand!?

What’s your view Peevemore? Do you think we live in a tolerant society?

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Originally Posted by The Pointer

When they stop this faux-American nonsense it won't be soon enough. It's got nothing to do with us, living in one of the most tolerant countries in the world and has put race relations back 50 years.

Keep politics out of sport and get on with the football. If they're still doing this when crowds are allowed back I hope it is roundly condemned for the virtue signalling nonsense it is.

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I'm going to guess you are white? And haven't experienced any discrimination yourself, or engaged/listened with those that have?

Given there are countless examples from people in this country where they have described their experiences as victims of racial prejudice, and the statistical evidence which shows it is a problem, then this most certainly does have something to do with us.

Even if we were one of the most tolerant countries in the world, which I doubt, we would still have a duty to eradicate any prejudice that did exist.

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Originally Posted by BlackSheep

Difficulty is, when corrected they shrug their shoulders and say ‘whatever’... I am well aware of why they may say or do the things they do, it’s the lack of effort to change that is the real issue.... I am also of a generation that was told to say coloured over black, but as I am aware that using that term is no longer acceptable, I no longer use it!

Are you saying that because people were raised to believe one way was better that they should be excused for still using it? That really is ignorant and is a huge part of the problem.

I kind of explained that in my last post, showing I fully understand their reasons.

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Older people not knowing the right terminology is not really the same as actively giving someone racist abuse or treating someone differently because of their race.

It isn’t a huge part of the problem at all.

Actually, I think it is... the information is available to everyone, no one is too old to learn new things. It’s this attitude that only keeps the issue alive... acceptance of racism in any form including pleading ignorance is the problem we face today.

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Originally Posted by Andy74

Older people not knowing the right terminology is not really the same as actively giving someone racist abuse or treating someone differently because of their race.

It isn’t a huge part of the problem at all.

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Agreed.

There is a huge difference between the two situations.

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Originally Posted by BlackSheep

Actually, I think it is... the information is available to everyone, no one is too old to learn new things. It’s this attitude that only keeps the issue alive... acceptance of racism in any form including pleading ignorance is the problem we face today.

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But what you're discussing is in no way an 'acceptance of racism'.


There's a big difference between somebody being intentionally and knowingly racist and somebody unintentionally using an outdated phrase that isn't in itself particularly offensive (especially as there's an organisation in the US that still uses it - NAACP).

It's a bit like if an English person referred to a group of Scots as 'Jocks', but that person has no actual prejudice towards Scottish people and doesn't realise the term is maybe a bit irritating. Now, I could go into a total meltdown about it, but I'd probably end up looking a bit stupid.

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Originally Posted by superfurryhibby

Agreed.

There is a huge difference between the two situations.

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It's like everything else on here. There's no room for discussion with some people as they think everything has to be right or wrong/good or bad, with no acceptance of anything in between. People can be good, benevolent & well meaning without being perfect.

The majority of heated debate I get into on here comes from my trying to understand both sides of any argument or situation. That seems to be beyond some people's comprehension.

I think somehow we have focused too much on a specific phrase here which is clouding the point I’m trying to make.

Let’s put it this way, I feel there is no excuse to use ANY racist terms regardless of age or education. As I pointed out before the information is out there, and BLM has highlighted it on the world stage. Any use of outdated terminology IS I feel as bad as abuse, why, because having comfort in using any racist terminology stops the problem from getting solved, ignorance breeds acceptance.

I have witnessed it in youth, acceptance or lack of education on racial slurs sees youth using said terminology and this often, not always, becomes a gateway to using more vile rhetoric in the future.

If use of or lack of education on the subject at an early stage, for example at home, is nipped in the bud, then people are more likely not to feel comfortable with its existence in society... this discomfort is what we need to spread and hopefully eradicate the worst forms
of racism.

It’s the same reasoning behind the authorities claiming Cannabis is a gateway drug and seek to stop the manufacture and supply it to aid in the effort to eradicate illegal drugs on the whole.

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Originally Posted by Peevemor

It's like everything else on here. There's no room for discussion with some people as they think everything has to be right or wrong/good or bad, with no acceptance of anything in between. People can be good, benevolent & well meaning without being perfect.

The majority of heated debate I get into on here comes from my trying to understand both sides of any argument or situation. That seems to be beyond some people's comprehension.

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I don’t feel this answers my query or request.... do you feel that factors in people’s lives that may affect their understanding and in turn usage of racist, sectarian, gender or sexuality slurs is something that cannot be changed?

I’m trying to see it from your point of view.

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Originally Posted by BlackSheep

I think somehow we have focused too much on a specific phrase here which is clouding the point I’m trying to make.

Let’s put it this way, I feel there is no excuse to use ANY racist terms regardless of age or education. As I pointed out before the information is out there, and BLM has highlighted it on the world stage. Any use of outdated terminology IS I fell as bad as abuse, why, because having comfort in using any racist terminology stops the problem from getting solved, ignorance breeds acceptance.

I have witnessed it in youth, acceptance or lack of education on racial slurs sees youth using said terminology and this often, not always, becomes a gateway to using more vile rhetoric in the future.

If use of or lack of education on the subject at an early stage, for example at home, is nipped in the bud, then people are more likely not to feel comfortable with its existence in society... this discomfort is what we need to spread and hopefully eradicate the worst forms
of racism.

It’s the same reasoning behind the authorities claiming Cannabis is a gateway drug and seek to stop the manufacture and supply it to aid in the effort to eradicate illegal drugs on the whole.

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Maybe all the information is out there, but if you don't encounter rasicm in every day life surely you can cut some people slack if they are not up to the proper wording that changes every so often?

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Originally Posted by blackpoolhibs

Maybe all the information is out there, but if you don't encounter rasicm in every day life surely you can cut some people slack if they are not up to the proper wording that changes every so often?

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Yes, perhaps those lucky enough not encounter any form of racism should be cut slack.... so next time I hear someone using a racial slur (let’s not focus on what used to be acceptable and no longer isn’t) I’ll just assume they’ve not encountered it, and let them go on their way...?

I’m not saying there should be harsh consequences in these instances but these fortunate people should be educated on the subject so they understand it’s not acceptable.

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Originally Posted by blackpoolhibs

Maybe all the information is out there, but if you don't encounter rasicm in every day life surely you can cut some people slack if they are not up to the proper wording that changes every so often?

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Apparently not.

It's much better to go off at the deep end than just explain to somebody why a word or phrase they've just used might be a bit off.

Oh and there's apparently no half measures; you're either totally perfect in word and deed (100% 'woke')... or you're an out-and-out racist (misogynist, anti-semite, trans-phobic, etc).

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Originally Posted by BlackSheep

I think somehow we have focused too much on a specific phrase here which is clouding the point I’m trying to make.

Let’s put it this way, I feel there is no excuse to use ANY racist terms regardless of age or education. As I pointed out before the information is out there, and BLM has highlighted it on the world stage. Any use of outdated terminology IS I feel as bad as abuse, why, because having comfort in using any racist terminology stops the problem from getting solved, ignorance breeds acceptance.

I have witnessed it in youth, acceptance or lack of education on racial slurs sees youth using said terminology and this often, not always, becomes a gateway to using more vile rhetoric in the future.

If use of or lack of education on the subject at an early stage, for example at home, is nipped in the bud, then people are more likely not to feel comfortable with its existence in society... this discomfort is what we need to spread and hopefully eradicate the worst forms
of racism.

It’s the same reasoning behind the authorities claiming Cannabis is a gateway drug and seek to stop the manufacture and supply it to aid in the effort to eradicate illegal drugs on the whole.

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I live in France. I regularly (at least weekly) have to put up with jokey comments about being Scottish/British (even English). Although it's often cringeworthy, the only time it really bothers me is when I don't like the person concerned. Apart from that people are generally well meaning if sometimes a bit ignorant. I certainly don't need anyone to become outraged for me nor to decide what terms people can use to describe me.

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Originally Posted by Keith_M

Apparently not.

It's much better to go off at the deep end than just explain to somebody why a word or phrase they've just used might be a bit off.

Oh and there's apparently no half measures; you're either totally perfect in word and deed (100% 'woke')... or you're an out-and-out racist (misogynist, anti-semite, trans-phobic, etc).

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Actually I would argue there shouldn’t be a grey area.... either you are comfortable using words that offend or you are not comfortable? If there’s a man alternative that is acceptable then please show me? Every day is school day and it seems I’m getting bogged down in my own argument.

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Originally Posted by Peevemor

I live in France. I regularly (at least weekly) have to put up with jokey comments about being Scottish/British (even English). Although it's often cringeworthy, the only time it really bothers me is when I don't like the person concerned. Apart from that people are generally well meaning if sometimes a bit ignorant. I certainly don't need anyone to become outraged for me nor to decide what terms people can use to describe me.

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Yeah, them Frogs can be really irritating sometimes...

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Originally Posted by Peevemor

I live in France. I regularly (at least weekly) have to put up with jokey comments about being Scottish/British (even English). Although it's often cringeworthy, the only time it really bothers me is when I don't like the person concerned. Apart from that people are generally well meaning if sometimes a bit ignorant. I certainly don't need anyone to become outraged for me nor to decide what terms people can use to describe me.

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Well that’s the thing... I’m not trying to tell you what you should be offended by, I’m arguing that we (the royal we) should be concerned with what WE say that could offend others.

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Originally Posted by Keith_M

Surely you shouldn't be posting on here. You should be out with your pitchfork and torch hunting down the people that aren't quite perfect enough for you.

If it's OK, I think I'll stick to accepting that people are human, don't know everything that's right and wrong and occasionally make mistakes.

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Do you not have a response that is valid enough to put forward that you have to stoop to childish mud slinging? People are human and do make mistakes, but would you not want to help even just one person to realise their mistake and pay it forward?

When I was younger, I used to use a lot of terminology that I have since learned isn’t acceptable and I have tried to wipe the vernacular out of my vocabulary, I don’t want my children hearing any terms that they could in turn use and not know the meaning behind the words.... I was part of the problem, because I didn’t understand the force behind the words, I now try to pass what education I have had on the subject on.

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Originally Posted by BlackSheep

Do you not have a response that is valid enough to put forward that you have to stoop to childish mud slinging? People are human and do make mistakes, but would you not want to help even just one person to realise their mistake and pay it forward?

When I was younger, I used to use a lot of terminology that I have since learned isn’t acceptable and I have tried to wipe the vernacular out of my vocabulary, I don’t want my children hearing any terms that they could in turn use and not know the meaning behind the words.... I was part of the problem, because I didn’t understand the force behind the words, I now try to pass what education I have had on the subject on.

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The bit I've highlighted in bold clearly shows you didn't read my whole post... or decided to ignore some of it.

Why make an argument that I've already answered?

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Originally Posted by BlackSheep

The reason I ask the posters age was just out of interest as I do find that folk from older generations more commonly think racism is a non issue in this country... which I think stems from my point that most of those who do think there hasn’t been an issue grew up when racism wasn’t viewed in the same light as it is these days.

It will take a long long time but the current publicity and changing attitudes will hopefully work it’s way down through future generations.

I have older relatives who still use the term ‘coloured’ and think it’s acceptable... ignorance is bliss in their eyes!

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So you categorise your opinion of people according to their age ? Well I am offended by your ageism.

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Originally Posted by Seveno

So you categorise your opinion of people according to their age ? Well I am offended by your ageism.

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1+1=3 there bud.

I asked as I felt knowing would help me to understand the poster’s stand point, as I have explained I have found more people from older generations find it hard to change their behaviour or not want to change, than those from younger generations.

I didn’t form an opinion about the OP I simply sought to understand why eh or she may have formed their opinion on our country being a tolerant one. Age is one factor that may explain that.