Think of the fines as payment and jobs a good un.Quote:
Originally Posted by Berwickhibby
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Think of the fines as payment and jobs a good un.Quote:
Originally Posted by Berwickhibby
Aye £12 for London ..up to £480 for after the third visit….great valueQuote:
Originally Posted by greenlex
Have some sympathy with your plight but am not convinced that we should do something just because that's what they do dan sarf. Do believe there are some people down there who don't give a stuff about the health of the hoi polloi.Quote:
Originally Posted by Berwickhibby
Great deterrent. At £12 a pop it’s just a money making exercise ( not a very good one it has to be said) rather than actually having an effect. It’ll be chalked up as a business expense.Quote:
Originally Posted by Berwickhibby
Fantastic …. Killing the city centre, pricing it that only the wealthy can use it.Quote:
Originally Posted by greenlex
Only the wealthy can use it?Quote:
Originally Posted by Berwickhibby
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Major roads through the centre of Edinburgh will be closed to through traffic under blueprint to cut car use in the capital. Council also want to look at the possiblity of charging drivers to use certain roads as part of efforts to cut out congestion.
https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.c...centre-4495063
https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/...u-drive-plans/
Bring in a congestion charge and make buses and trams free. Would change behaviour massively and really open up the city centre for people again.Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveHFC
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God help wedding venues and hotels etc getting vendors in EdinburghQuote:
Originally Posted by SteveHFC
It might well do. 😉Quote:
Originally Posted by Berwickhibby
What a nightmare, mentions there will still be local access mind you.... but if you remember, they said that when the trams were being built down Leith Walk, delivery firms were complaining despite that they were still having to cart stuff a good distance :-(Quote:
Originally Posted by Berwickhibby
Actually, on the trams, if they close the proposed new route to traffic with this scheme, then drivers won't be able to blame the tram construction for any traffic delays!
A cunning plan by the council! [emoji1787]
Was down Leith Walk the other day. All the businesses seemed to be open as normal and have adapted to the new set up. I dare say some might be enjoying the extra footfall the tram brings.Quote:
Originally Posted by Just Alf
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They have adapted to the new set up, mainly because delivery drivers have ignored the useless parking bays and are just parking on the pavement in front of where they are delivering to, I like the trams, I use them lots but let's not pretend the current state of walking, cycling, getting on and off buses or delivering goods in Leith walk is anything other than a farceQuote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
I'm talking about when the road was closed and provision was made for local access.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
Edit: and for what it's worth, I totally agree.... now they're in place they've been a success a getting people into the area and spending their money
The behaviour of motorists, cyclists and pedestrians on Leith Walk has, not unsurprisingly, improved considerably since the trams started running. It just took a bit of getting used to.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mon Dieu4
Yes there are still vehicles parking as they shouldn't.
Pedestrians, I'd suggest mostly lost tourists, walking in the cycle paths.
The biggest miscreants are the cyclists. Still too many cycling on the wrong side of the road; cycling on the pavement section; not using/having lights on when it's dark and wearing dark clothing making them very difficult to see. Most of these are the food delivery people.
I'd agree it was a farce. I'd suggest now it's 'still room for improvement'.
Wonder if some of that is because the cycling bit has been laid so lumpy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack
Not particularly on the bits I was thinking about when I was writing the post although I'm just a pedestrian these days and there may well be lumpy bits. Would slowing down at these lumpy bits not help?Quote:
Originally Posted by lapsedhibee
No doubt. Not been on all of it, but going downhill from London Road, there's long, long sections of lumpy, which you'd end up doing at little more than walking speed. Ideal for pedestrians but not much of an incentive for cyclists to cycle on. Have been quite tempted to take my chances on the tramlines for a smoother ride, but the Driving Pet Peeves thread might explode.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack
I'm in the same boat. Same van b4 lockdown £16k, now £30k as you've said. £90 when you enter the zone then double every time until it reaches about £400. Then after 3 months the fines start again.Quote:
Originally Posted by Berwickhibby
I think you need check the cost of ULEZ finesQuote:
Originally Posted by Itsnoteasy
🤔
Itsnoteasy is close enough with his postQuote:
Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns
issue an initial PCN set at £60, per vehicle
issue a second PCN set at £120, if the same vehicle is driven a second time within 90 days of the first breach
issue a third PCN set at £240, if the same vehicle is driven a third time within 90 days of the first breach
issue a fourth PCN set at £480, if the same vehicle is driven a fourth time within 90 days of the first breach
My first fine was a tad to high & last fine was a tad to low. I'll make sure I dot the i's & cross the t's right the next time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns
I just did a calculation on the fines for December if ULEZ had been in force….£2820 by the time I paid my tax on earnings I would be in minus.Quote:
Originally Posted by Itsnoteasy
New van would be a lot cheaper than that per month.Quote:
Originally Posted by Berwickhibby
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Don't be so logical 😉Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
It would!! but I own a van with less than 45k on the clock, regularly serviced. I will find work elsewhere and Edinburgh council can GTF.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
If business in Edinburgh was so important why did you buy a non compliant van?Quote:
Originally Posted by Berwickhibby
Had my van 9 years …was compliant when I bought it 🙄Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack
9 year old van with 45K on the clock. I'd invest in an electric cargo bike. No idea what you do for a trade but I've seen these modern e-bikes do some serious hauling with the right trailer. Less than 5K a year makes it sound like a lot of urban miles.Quote:
Originally Posted by Berwickhibby
Bit hard to transport a full disco rig lighting, PA plus spares from Fife on a cargo bikeQuote:
Originally Posted by speedy_gonzales
Yeah, hard but not impossible. I was surprised when I seen some of the loads these bikes could carry.Quote:
Originally Posted by Berwickhibby
But seriously, you're looking at a final mile solution or a change of vehicle. It'd be ridiculous to cut yourself off from potential business when there are solutions out there.
Cant take an electric bike on a motorway…and I am not forking out £30k on a new van. I am getting bookings outwith the zone so I will take the initial hit. The people who will suffer most are the wedding venues in Edinburgh. Also the couples who are paying more for their big day.Quote:
Originally Posted by speedy_gonzales
The solution is for the Council not be so inflexible for businesses to enter Edinburgh to work.
The improvement in air quality will benefit everyone in the city though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Berwickhibby
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Not sure if mentioned previously BH, but showmans vehicles ie the gypsy community are exempt. A high percent of those vehicles are ancient. How did they come to that decision.Quote:
Originally Posted by Berwickhibby
What a ridiculous statement. Every vehicle was compliant till ULEZ was introduced into Scotland last year.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack
No it will only improve it in the city centre. As every other vehicle will navigate around the zone making the air quality far worse outside the zone.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
You miss understand me, when I said "final mile" I meant you could drive the vehicle of your choosing to the periphery of the ULEZ zone then complete the last section by any compliant means.Quote:
Originally Posted by Berwickhibby
Where there's a will there's a way, I've seen a lot more electric commercial vehicles on the city's streets recently. Tradesmen will adapt, whether that's their area of business or how they carry it out. Any voids left behind will eventually be filled, they always are.Quote:
Originally Posted by Berwickhibby
Yeah, I wouldn't hold your breath on that point, they're not known for making u-turns.Quote:
Originally Posted by Berwickhibby
I assume the council don’t want to upset the travelling community 🤷*♂️Quote:
Originally Posted by Itsnoteasy
Would that mean carrying a cargo bike and ramp in the van then rolling it out of the van at the ULEZ periphery?Quote:
Originally Posted by speedy_gonzales
That would be one option.Quote:
Originally Posted by lapsedhibee
Quote:
Originally Posted by speedy_gonzales
Surely if the bike is pulling heavy loads the distance the bike could travel would be limited.
Are you sure it's legal for these ebikes to pull trailers.
As a motorcycle under 125cc is not allowed to pull a trailer. These ebikes can't be as powerful as a 125cc bike.
Not at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Itsnoteasy
First discussed for London in 2008 its naive to think other councils around the UK wouldn't be jumping on the money making bandwagon saying it's great for the environment.
The legislation process started in Scotland in 2016.
(U)LEZ being introduced was inevitable.
Accept your point but London Birmingham etc allow the purchase of day tickets for vehicles to enter if they need to, the straight to fines and excessive fines for breaches is draconian to say the least.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack
Yes 1st discussed, but look how long it has taken for it to be implemented. Surely its the vehicle manufacturers issue for not making the vehicles compliant earlier. Or will they say the same, that no definite date was given to start Ulez.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack
My brother got a new van recently due to Ulez. He had known years ago it was coming but left it to last minute. Cost him £15k but he’s delighted with his new van. Had to go down to England to pick it up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Itsnoteasy
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Absolutely legal for bicycles to have trailers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Itsnoteasy
Bikes can also be bespoke built to carry loads. Please note these kegs are empty, but point remains.
Edited to add this solution probably isn't practical for BerwickHibby so the idea that will be moot.
Worst air quality is in St John's Rd nowhere near the centre and due to commuters doing the daily drive. Closing off roads in the centre will only cause congestion and emission problems elsewhere, the LEZ is actually quite small an area. Oh BTW does the emissions from heavy traffic know not to float from Picardy Pl to the top of Leith St where the zone begins.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
And I think the ULEZ will expand once it’s in operation until it covers the whole city. And it will encourage people to use less polluting vehicles.Quote:
Originally Posted by J-C
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After being unable to work during pandemic, cost of living crisis, fuel crisis, tax rises, insurance going sky high this feel like another unnecessary kick in the stanes ….be better just sitting at home living on benefits than actually working.
Edinburgh Council can GTF
For what it's worth, I have total sympathy with you here, and with the challenges you've had to face over the last few years.Quote:
Originally Posted by Berwickhibby
I don't know what the solution is as doing nothing doesn't feel right, the day passes feel a bit tokenistic, and this feels excessive... presumably a better mix of support, grants, exemptions, etc that allows for this to be rolled out to an appropriate level without impacting so drastically on people like yourself.
I hope you find a solution to this that works for you. :aok:
Appreciate your understanding, my van is completely legal and compliant for the Road Traffic Act, as it’s taxed, business insured and has an MOT certificate. I have had to give up lucrative contracts and find work elsewhere due to the inflexible Edinburgh ULEZ legislation. The problem is the clients will end up paying a lot more for services if they choose a venue within the ULEZ zone.Quote:
Originally Posted by danhibees1875
I have this week been contacted by a bride who has moved her wedding to another venue as both I, the cake maker, Photo Booth and light up dance floor have increased our prices to accommodate van hire.
My family Audi a4 estate which averages 48mpg is banned but my Mercedes SL and my Daimler double six V12 are exempt so not all bad 🤣🤣
Happy to do my bit and leave the Audi at home
My 20yr old Golf is OK to drive in the town but the 9yr old taxi I drive isn't.
Which obviously makes sense to some dimwit at the Council but not to everyone elseQuote:
Originally Posted by J-C
What make & model did he get for that price? & just oot the wrapper.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
2nd hand Mercedes 2018 model I think.Quote:
Originally Posted by Itsnoteasy
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So he got himself a new vehicle that is used 👍🏻Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
Or one that's new to him 😁Quote:
Originally Posted by Itsnoteasy
It’s new to him and Ulez compliant. That’s all he cares about.Quote:
Originally Posted by Itsnoteasy
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Would an estate car not do the job, be cheaper too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Berwickhibby
Following this theme maybe the way forward is buying a classic van which is already exempt, would look cool turning up to a job in this which is for sale in Bonnyrigg and under £10k!Quote:
Originally Posted by Hibs4185
These are also exempt from road tax and MOT.
https://www.carcavescotland.co.uk/cl...nsit-mk1-lhd-0
That does look good, but nae power steering I'm guessing. How would this be exempt from Ulez charges?Quote:
Originally Posted by hibee
Anything over 30yr old is exempt as it’s classed as historic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Itsnoteasy
Aye get to a classic car auction and pick up a retro van!
Must be to satisfy the toffs in the new town with their old Rollers and E Types. It's mental. Also showmans vehicles must be to not discriminate against a community because how can some professions be told to modernize and others notQuote:
Originally Posted by hibee
These cars should be protected, you can’t just scrap an E-Type because it doesn’t comply with modern regulations!Quote:
Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7
It’s not just toffs that run classics, I had an old Porsche as a second car for 8 years, it was cheap to buy and cheap to run and I sold it for a profit when it was 33 years old. Over 70% of all Porsches ever made are still on the road today, they may only do a couple of thousand miles a year so surely better on the planet than scrapping them and building a new car.
I have a miniscule amount of sympathy for classic cars being in the centre than someone's motor that their livelihood depends on.Quote:
Originally Posted by hibee
Plus no one is saying scrap then just don't take them in the city centre you'll still have 99.9% of Scotland to roam. You could also get them converted if you need to be in the centre
Fair enough, I personally don’t have any need to ever take a car into the city centre but if you happen to live within the LEZ then you’ve not got much choice other than moving or selling the car.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7
Just read the latest road closures that will come into effect for 2025. Half the centre of toon, mound, bottom of cowgate outside parliament etc being pedestrianised 🙄
They are trying to copy the car free centre Ghent brought in.Quote:
Originally Posted by Itsnoteasy
https://www.simagazin.com/en/si-urban-en/topics-urban/urban/gent-the-car-free-city/
After ghent created car free centre and no through traffic car use in the city went from 55% to 27%
Bike traffic went from 22% to 35%
Public transport from 20% to 31%, they used the extra money from public transport to create more routes and decrease price
Pedestrians in the centre grew 5%
Air pollution dropped 25%
Biggest positive was businesses flourished in the centre. Bankruptcies down 20% in food and drink industry and 7% more new businesses in the centre. I think people must want to be in the city centre more when it's focused on people and not cars
There are a few working examples in Europe where this works and improves cities. I’m sure they have the same opposition at first as we have as well. None of them will switch back though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7
Business in Leith will be starting to see the benefits of the move away from cars in Leith walk which is why we are hearing complaints about parking so much. And the more we move away from cars in the city centre, the quicker the trams and buses will be able to get through it, making getting through Edinburgh better for everyone.
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An article I read says there was riots at the townhall in Ghent before it was implemented. 4 years later 74% of this polled wanted it extended further (12% abstained)Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
Cowgate apparently being closed to traffic for a trial period and possibly permanent if it goes well.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotla...-fife-68170323
Personally and selfishly I'm against this, Cowgate is my main route through town. It means East to West traffic will need to either go Queen Street - single lane for the York Place section, six sets of traffic lights - or the Meadows, which ends up at the complete traffic disaster which is Tollcross.Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveHFC
The Caves, Rowantree and Apex will lose a lot of wedding business if the Cowgate closes….considering that’s the main income for the unusual event’s company which also includes Marilyn’s Wynd on Blair StreetQuote:
Originally Posted by SteveHFC
I'm the same.... through Grassmarket, up onto royal Mile and down through cowgate eventually hitting top of Easter Road.... both Grassmarket and Cowgate are being closed! [emoji20]Quote:
Originally Posted by grunt
Even my bus (35) will be impacted
There is still access for deliveries just no through traffic for cars. Cars will have to go round or better get public transport which will still be able to pass through but now quicker.
As for pubs and venues in Ghent there was a 20% increase in new businesses in the hotel and restaurant industry with 7% fewer bankruptcies. People want to spend time uptown when it's not filled with cars it seems
Which buses go along the Cowgate? Answer: No buses go along the Cowgate. Me driving through Cowgate was holding up precisely no buses.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7
I'm not talking about travel to the pubs and clubs in the Cowgate. I'm talking about the Cowgate being a major road connecting East of Edinburgh to the West side.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7
You don't teleport into the cowgate though so slow down tlb7s traffic heading to town. The point is to stop traffic heading towards town. They also say decreasing cars will enable them to add routes and capacity.Quote:
Originally Posted by grunt
You weren't talking about businesses in the area but they are effected by cars. People like to go where there are no cars in cities, trade improves without them.
The fact is we need cars of the road and this is a way with good benefits. We don't want it to be easy for cars we want people cycling and using public transport. We can't sit and watch the world's temperatures increase and say but I prefer my convenience
I know plenty of people who can’t cycle due to health or disability reasons. I rely on buses but they need to improve the transport system outside of Edinburgh to make this work.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7
If they are disabled they can still park up town. For those without blue badges park and rides will get you up town. This is only a problem for going through the town centre you can still travel round but it might take 10 minutes moreQuote:
Originally Posted by SteveHFC
No danger I’m taking my classic car into the city centre, it breaks down too often! I’d cause carnage
You could also say that people who live and work in the city need not be as inconvenienced by unnecessary road closures. Edinburgh isn't Disneyland and whilst tourism is a huge part of our economy, this can't always take precedence at all times. There's a huge challenge in the city around the impact of tourism, gentrification and questions around when the city centre reaches saturation point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7
We all want a cleaner , greener city, but closing main arterial roads in central Edinburgh isn't always the answer.
It is if if we are to reduce driving by 20% by 2030, driving makes up 25% of our co2. We need to make it as difficult as possible for drivers. The planet is on a knife edge and people don't want to inconvenience themselves.Quote:
Originally Posted by superfurryhibby
I don't think this is about gentrification as 40% of the lowest 20% earners don't have cars compared to 9% of the top 20%. Quicker more plentiful buses and trams will disproportionately help the working class.
No one is stopping public transport going in and through the city, use a park and ride or walk for a bit if you can. There will be more bus services due to this yes it's an inconvenience but we have no choice
Being concerned about the imp-act of over saturation of tourism isn't necessarily the same as concerns about gentrification, although no doubt there are social ramifications.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7
Climate change is complex and I feel ordinary people are often part of a blame game-guilt trip. WE can recycle all we want, but there is a relentless economic focus on consuming. Buy new compliant (electric-not so green) cars, build loads of new houses on the green belt (with no infrastructure of course), encourage a tourist economy and visitors at all costs (who of course will mostly fly, drive, cruise ship). Do you not see any irony around this?
For a planet on a knife edge , I'm not aware of much radical change. Still going to be driving cars (electric vehicle, carbon footprint), still importing huge amounts of food from all over the place, flying around on holidays.
There's a lot of lip service though.
I'm in Glasgow just now for a few gigs in celtic connections and it's a relative pleasure to wander along large section of Argyll St, all of Buchanan St and sauchiehall St with no traffic, just having to worry about traffic at streets that cross them. I imagine George street will be like this. The bit of the high street in Edinburgh between George IV Bridge and the Bridges is the same relaxed traffic free environment. Rose street is a disaster though.
I thought it was all transport types that made up 25% of CO2 not just us driving cars.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7
The planet may be on a knife edge but if we continue to ignore China and make it worse by buying everything from them and sending it here on filthy ships there’s not much point in us closing a few roads in the city centre.
They did try to clean up ships but instead of using cleaner fuel they now just use scrubbers to divert the pollution into the sea as it’s so much cheaper for them.
I don’t know what the solution is but if the worst polluters don’t care then the planet is in trouble no matter what we do in our little country.
It's domestic transport that makes up 25% so cars vans lorries but cars makes up 90 odd % of that. There is no better way of us cutting carbon than reducing our driving. People won't do that on their own so the gov and council have to. It's not popular to do this so I'm glad all parties bar tories and lib dems are wanting to do this.Quote:
Originally Posted by hibee
We could say what about them to everything we can only do what we can and that is reach net zero. We can't as a nation be a net carbon producer and look at people dying in the global South with our conscience clear. Why should we give aid to countries abroad who have war or famine if other nations don't ect ect
Every city that has brought in measures that I've seen has had anger against and then the public approve post.Quote:
Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns
I said yesterday but Ghent had riots and anger when they brought this in. Then 3 years post the vast majority wanted it extended. Its not just for tourists it's for us to have a centre worth spending time in. Just now the city is dying and it's a car park. Obviously the climate is the most important factor but a city we can all enjoy will be great
Was Ghent left with just two very poor options for their traffic to get East / West though?Quote:
Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7
While I get your point surely each City has its own challenges so a direct read across is not really possible.
Closing the cowgate creates a real challenge esp. if and when it’s combined with closing the park and the bridges and the mound.
And while cutting car use is a worthy objective of the actions just pushing cars onto the very few already congested and poorly designed routes that remain you achieve nothing but even more congestion and pollution.
I’m pretty sure every city that this happens to will have people saying ‘you can’t do that here’ or ‘our city just isn’t designed for that’. Dublin is having the exact same discussions now and you could almost copy and paste the same discussions from message boards and newspaper comment sections.Quote:
Originally Posted by RyeSloan
Once it’s all done we will wonder why we gave over so much of our city to cars.
Amsterdam did this 30 years ago and they have never looked back.
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https://www.fastcompany.com/90321627...et-rid-of-cars
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Amsterdam has somewhat fewer hills than Edinburgh. And they have a ready made alternative means of navigating around the city in canals. Plus a long established tram system. Not the best example.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
Ghent allowed no through access at all they were much stricter than us. They split their city into 7 sections and you can only go into one section, you can't travel from one section to another you need to go out then back in another sector. You have to drive round the centre rather than goingthrough. The very centre section is no cars at all bar deliveries early morningQuote:
Originally Posted by RyeSloan
Ghent is less than half the size of Edinburgh. I'm not sure in what other ways they are comparable.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7
They are doing this in London, Paris, Madrid etc. Not small cities.Quote:
Originally Posted by grunt
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Amsterdam is a good example as everyone drove , tram use was limited and cycling non existent, canals have never been a serious mode of public transport their and still isn't. The great tram system grew from less cars. Electric bikes are booming in the uk and make Edinburgh a doddle cost pennies compared to cars too. In Ghent the car drivers mostly switched to public transport but bike use did increase tooQuote:
Originally Posted by grunt
Look at the pics what would you prefer
Attachment 27664Attachment 27665
Paris are going heavily with this Barcelona, Oslo, Helsinki,Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
San Francisco too, new York looking at it in Manhattan
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
None of these are closing the Cowgate to traffic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7
In the mean time the council are issuing around 15 new PHC licenses per week when the roads are crammed with PHC cars already, add in the council giving a license to Bright buses to operate a regular bus service to the airport from Waterloo Pl adding further to the congestion, this city and this council are a joke.