Scotrail

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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

Is it possible that this could be a lagging indicator though? That the changes in behaviour of the young ones now will result in a future drop in deaths from misuse?


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It's a difficult one.

If we are talking about drinking amongst the general (young) population, it is a case of predicting whether behaviours or attitudes change over time. A popular topic on here is Scottish independence and I think most folk, if asked, would agree that younger voters are more inclined to vote Yes. If they voted that way then 2014 would have seen these new young voters plus the voters who were young in 1979 and it should have been a landslide! That's not backed up by any reliable data, I hasten to add, but illustrates potentially how behaviours in younger years do shift.

What is reliable data is that around problematic drinking amongst teenagers. If we were using European comparisons they would highlight that Scotland is really high, I think the Baltics lead the way on that front but Scotland isn't too far from the top. And there is enough public health evidence from longitudinal research to demonstrate that behaviours acquired at that young age are hard to shift.

Another variable is development in medicine generally - how we treat alcohol-specific disease and other alcohol-related conditions could easily extend life expectancy, albeit some of that living in ill-health. And cost of living might be seen as a counterweight to dangerous consumption but the reality is lots of anecdotal evidence of people prioritising alcohol rather than food, heating and everything else.

So the short answer is I would be wary of suggesting the figures will improve because of a perception that younger people drink less. If you think back to the early-mid nineties, we had a generation that was supposedly turning its back on alcohol in large numbers as rave culture embedded itself. Yet thirty years on, the death rate is massively higher and relatively stable.

The stats from the previous post were from rough memory but if anyone is interested in the data around this, Public Health Scotland provide loads of information and trend analysis on their website (about all health-related topics, not just drinking!)

Surely Bozo and his pals aren't so cynical? :cb
https://youtu.be/SL2-pGYFKOA

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Originally Posted by Mibbes Aye

This thread isn't specifically about alcohol misuse but comparing pro capita consumption across European nations misses the point when it comes to measuring harm.

The real story is alcohol-specific deaths. They rose 17% between 2019 and 2020. Potentially you could attribute the impact of the pandemic to that but alcohol-specific deaths relate to alcohol-specific conditions that generally develop over years, so we are talking about patterns of behaviour that predated the pandemic by a long chalk.

Alcohol-specific deaths have increased by 200% in the last forty years and increased most dramarically from the early nineties to around fifteen years ago. It's been a rough levelling-off of around 1,000 deaths each year since then. And that doesn't include deaths where alcohol misuse was merely a contributing factor to ill-health (or wasn't coded as alcohol-related when deaths are registered).

Dividing the amount of alcohol bought by the size of the population doesn't illustrate that Scotland has a genuine problem where a lot of people drink to beyond hazardous levels and beyond harmful levels and die at the rate of roughly three a day, every day, every week, every month and so on.

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Alcohol related deaths changed the way they were recorded in the 2000s. That's why for decades before it always sat at around 400. Mental health alcohol related deaths ect were added so that's why it shot to 1400 in just a couple of years , things obviously didn't get over 3 times worse in a few years.



Like amount of alcohol drunk, binge drinking and teenage drinking, alcohol related deaths have dropped a huge amount since the 90s. From 1400s to 1000s they have been trickling about now. The pandemic year you obviously through out as that happened across the world.

Every measure has dropped a huge amount since the 90s, it will only get better over the next decade because each one effects the other.

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Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

Alcohol related deaths changed the way they were recorded in the 2000s. That's why for decades before it always sat at around 400. Mental health alcohol related deaths ect were added so that's why it shot to 1400 in just a couple of years , things obviously didn't get over 3 times worse in a few years.



Like amount of alcohol drunk, binge drinking and teenage drinking, alcohol related deaths have dropped a huge amount since the 90s. From 1400s to 1000s they have been trickling about now. The pandemic year you obviously through out as that happened across the world.

Every measure has dropped a huge amount since the 90s, it will only get better over the next decade because each one effects the other.

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If you can't get the basics right then it's hard to take your views seriously.

Alcohol-specific deaths started rising in 1992, not the 2000s

They didn't sit at 400 for decades before - there are only data sets going back twelve years prior.

Deaths haven't dropped a hige amount since the 1990s. They were higher in 2020 than any year in the 1990s.

And perhaps most importantly, you don't deem to grasp the distinction between alcohol-specific deaths and alcohol-related deaths. Alcohol-specific means that the cause of death, medically, is 100% attributable to alcohol i.e. very specific diseases caused by alcohol. Alcohol-related means alcohol played a contributory factor in the cause of death. Stats generally have alcohol-relateds as running between two and four times as high as alcohol-specific, but there is a general acceptance that there is under-reporting when it comes to registering deaths that have multiple attribution codes

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Originally Posted by Mibbes Aye

If you can't get the basics right then it's hard to take your views seriously.

Alcohol-specific deaths started rising in 1992, not the 2000s

They didn't sit at 400 for decades before - there are only data sets going back twelve years prior.

Deaths haven't dropped a hige amount since the 1990s. They were higher in 2020 than any year in the 1990s.

And perhaps most importantly, you don't deem to grasp the distinction between alcohol-specific deaths and alcohol-related deaths. Alcohol-specific means that the cause of death, medically, is 100% attributable to alcohol i.e. very specific diseases caused by alcohol. Alcohol-related means alcohol played a contributory factor in the cause of death. Stats generally have alcohol-relateds as running between two and four times as high as alcohol-specific, but there is a general acceptance that there is under-reporting when it comes to registering deaths that have multiple attribution codes

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Attachment 25962


If your going to be pedantic with dates then, it sat at around 400 until the 90s when they started changing how it was compiled. Phe says you can't compare post 2000 to pre , so I won't and its almost a quarter of a century so pointless anyway

Since the peak at the start of the century its came from 1400 to averaging around 1100 in the last 5 years. Its undeniably got better in the last 25 years. Add in overall alcohol consumption dropping , someone at hollyrood is doing something right in the last few decades

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Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

Attachment 25962


If your going to be pedantic with dates then, it sat at around 400 until the 90s when they started changing how it was compiled. Phe says you can't compare post 2000 to pre , so I won't and its almost a quarter of a century so pointless anyway

Since the peak at the start of the century its came from 1400 to averaging around 1100 in the last 5 years. Its undeniably got better in the last 25 years. Add in overall alcohol consumption dropping , someone at hollyrood is doing something right in the last few decades

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:faf:

I'm starting to understand your posting style. Take exception if someone disagrees with you, get argumentative, if you get it wrong don't own it, instead shift to something else, and always, always try and get the last word. It's like trying to have a discussion with Boris Johnson or Donald Trump. Are you an obese man with ludicrous hair and a need to dissemble and lie? :greengrin Just kidding, you can have the last word if you like as this is all a bit circular and not really good, informed discussion.

Your first paragraph. If by 'pedantic' you mean 'correcting your errors' then yes, I am. Incidentally how did they change the compilation of the data? You do realise that they re-apply the metrics retrospectively, so that the data set is still comparing apples with apples?

when you say PHE say you can't compare post 2000 to pre 2000 re Scottish data that's news to me. Are you sure it wasn't a St Alban's player? :greengrin Anyway, we are talking Scottish data not PHE's data and PHS are confident in the validity of their data set going back to 1979. Otherwise it's a bit like saying "...Hibs win the Scottish Cup once every six years, honest guv, yeah, I'm only measuring from 2016 though"!! And that sort of all applies to your second paragraph as well, really. It's a shame.

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Originally Posted by Mibbes Aye

:faf:

I'm starting to understand your posting style. Take exception if someone disagrees with you, get argumentative, if you get it wrong don't own it, instead shift to something else, and always, always try and get the last word. It's like trying to have a discussion with Boris Johnson or Donald Trump. Are you an obese man with ludicrous hair and a need to dissemble and lie? :greengrin Just kidding, you can have the last word if you like as this is all a bit circular and not really good, informed discussion.

Your first paragraph. If by 'pedantic' you mean 'correcting your errors' then yes, I am. Incidentally how did they change the compilation of the data? You do realise that they re-apply the metrics retrospectively, so that the data set is still comparing apples with apples?

when you say PHE say you can't compare post 2000 to pre 2000 re Scottish data that's news to me. Are you sure it wasn't a St Alban's player? :greengrin Anyway, we are talking Scottish data not PHE's data and PHS are confident in the validity of their data set going back to 1979. Otherwise it's a bit like saying "...Hibs win the Scottish Cup once every six years, honest guv, yeah, I'm only measuring from 2016 though"!! And that sort of all applies to your second paragraph as well, really. It's a shame.

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I'd take the insult the wrong way if I wasn't mid 30s and in decent shape, but I'm sure your like arny. Phs obviously. It said they changed the way deaths were recorded so you can't directly compare.

You must agree there has been a massive drop in alcohol related deaths in the last 20 years with a small up tick recently.

I'd say it probably isn't fair to judge pre 1999 since the opening of Scots parliament. I'd go further and say its pointless before the snps 15 years as they have been in so long. Every metric you want is down in that time. I'm sure you'll agree they are doing an amazing job, although we have to keep an eye on the small rise.

Alcohol related deaths about a third down and alcohol consumed in total down 10%, since the snp. I bet it will continue thanks to youth Drinking going down

Alcohol ban kept in place for the summer.

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Originally Posted by SteveHFC

Alcohol ban kept in place for the summer.

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I'm shocked...

How did a thread called Scotrail become a debate about alcohol misuse?

Re the railways I see next week's strikes are going ahead. Selfish f****ers.

https://www.ft.com/content/490d46e3-...0-abb55aced77e

Rail union warns disruption could last all year after pay talks fail
Leader of RMT accuses government of blocking progress in negotiations

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Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

https://www.ft.com/content/490d46e3-...0-abb55aced77e

Rail union warns disruption could last all year after pay talks fail
Leader of RMT accuses government of blocking progress in negotiations

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A strike will suit the Tories down to the ground.


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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

A strike will suit the Tories down to the ground.


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Maybe one but I don't think the mass strikes in many sectors that are rumoured will be good. People might just wake up that this is a **** show

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Originally Posted by He's here!

How did a thread called Scotrail become a debate about alcohol misuse?

Re the railways I see next week's strikes are going ahead. Selfish f****ers.

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Clarification required!?!
There hasn't been a general railway strike since 1989.
The (NR) workers withdrawing labour after a legitimate ballot are doing so after not having any pay-rise for 30 months and not having a contractual bonus paid over the last two years.
Ignoring inflation, that's a real time paycut of 6% (average bonus = 3% of average NR mtce wage). Including inflation at CPI or RPI, then that's a big year on year pay cut.
And then if we choose to ignore a NET paycut to a workforce that worked (like many) throughout the pandemic, there's the attack on hard fought and agreed working conditions.
I'm sorry, but it's not the workers that are being selfish. God knows nobody wants to upset anyone else with a general strike but how else do they draw attention and action over such behaviour?

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Originally Posted by speedy_gonzales

Clarification required!?!
There hasn't been a general railway strike since 1989.
The (NR) workers withdrawing labour after a legitimate ballot are doing so after not having any pay-rise for 30 months and not having a contractual bonus paid over the last two years.
Ignoring inflation, that's a real time paycut of 6% (average bonus = 3% of average NR mtce wage). Including inflation at CPI or RPI, then that's a big year on year pay cut.
And then if we choose to ignore a NET paycut to a workforce that worked (like many) throughout the pandemic, there's the attack on hard fought and agreed working conditions.
I'm sorry, but it's not the workers that are being selfish. God knows nobody wants to upset anyone else with a general strike but how else do they draw attention and action over such behaviour?

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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-61852047

Train drivers have had pay rises totalling nearly 40 per cent over the last decade, way in excess of, say, nursing staff. The disruption this action will cause right across the UK, screwing up the plans of folk from all walks of life, is grossly out of proportion to the scale of their grievances.

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Originally Posted by He's here!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-61852047

Train drivers have had pay rises totalling nearly 40 per cent over the last decade, way in excess of, say, nursing staff. The disruption this action will cause right across the UK, screwing up the plans of folk from all walks of life, is grossly out of proportion to the scale of their grievances.

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Is this the train drivers striking

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Originally Posted by speedy_gonzales

Clarification required!?!
There hasn't been a general railway strike since 1989.
The (NR) workers withdrawing labour after a legitimate ballot are doing so after not having any pay-rise for 30 months and not having a contractual bonus paid over the last two years.
Ignoring inflation, that's a real time paycut of 6% (average bonus = 3% of average NR mtce wage). Including inflation at CPI or RPI, then that's a big year on year pay cut.
And then if we choose to ignore a NET paycut to a workforce that worked (like many) throughout the pandemic, there's the attack on hard fought and agreed working conditions.
I'm sorry, but it's not the workers that are being selfish. God knows nobody wants to upset anyone else with a general strike but how else do they draw attention and action over such behaviour?

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Tories will be happy to turn worker against worker.


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Originally Posted by He's here!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-61852047

Train drivers have had pay rises totalling nearly 40 per cent over the last decade, way in excess of, say, nursing staff. The disruption this action will cause right across the UK, screwing up the plans of folk from all walks of life, is grossly out of proportion to the scale of their grievances.

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How many train drivers do Network Rail employ???
And why are nurses always the benchmark for pay rises?
And could you imagine industrial action taking place where nobody was inconvenienced?

This action is about folk fighting for fair recognition after 2+ years of pay freezes, faux credit for "pandemic cover" and a not unsurprising Tory attack on workers terms/conditions and working practices that will result in a less safe running of our railway.

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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

Tories will be happy to turn worker against worker.


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Agreed, classic play, in the race to the bottom, encourage workers to fight amongst each other rather than allow them to unite and fight the common problem.

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Originally Posted by He's here!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-61852047

Train drivers have had pay rises totalling nearly 40 per cent over the last decade, way in excess of, say, nursing staff. The disruption this action will cause right across the UK, screwing up the plans of folk from all walks of life, is grossly out of proportion to the scale of their grievances.

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Try bankers the next time. The poor nurses are always used.

Next time I board a train, I'll be thankful that the staff are fully trained 😏 in all safety aspects and procedures to allow the traveling public to get from A to B.

Any watering down if any safety procedures is a red card from me.

Network rail can GTF.

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Originally Posted by He's here!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-61852047

Train drivers have had pay rises totalling nearly 40 per cent over the last decade, way in excess of, say, nursing staff. The disruption this action will cause right across the UK, screwing up the plans of folk from all walks of life, is grossly out of proportion to the scale of their grievances.

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I’m sure these rises would have been negotiated by the EMPLOYER and the union. I’m also sure that the EMPLOYER must have agreed these rises and were happy to agree it as their shareholders pocketed over £1b in dividends. The whole point of strike action is disruption, but it’s always the unions that get blamed rather than the bosses. Let’s be very clear the rail strikes are politically motivated not by the unions but by the Tory government.
ASLEF will be announcing the results of ballots in 9 other companies next month. Not one of these people will have had a pay rise in 3 years!
ASLEF have settled on London Underground (Lab mayor) MerseyRail (Lab Mayor) Nexus (Lab controlled authority) Scotrail (SNP controlled) and are still in talks on Transport for Wales. Yet every company that the Tories are in control off have failed to table a penny. So rather than attack workers look further behind the Daily Mail rhetoric and understand the workers case. If you’ve not had a rise join a union and fight back because Britain deserves a pay rise.

When is the UK Gov going to step in and do something to stop the #toryrailstrikes

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Originally Posted by ronaldo7

When is the UK Gov going to step in and do something to stop the #toryrailstrikes

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Hopefully quickly. Took Scotgov several weeks to halt the threat of strike action from Scotrail. I thought this had now been resolved, it appears there were around 70 last min cancellations to yesterday's services due to staffing issues I think.

What do we think the chances are Lothian Buses will go on strike over pay? If that coincided with the festival, it would be an utter disaster for businesses.

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Originally Posted by Santa Cruz

Hopefully quickly. Took Scotgov several weeks to halt the threat of strike action from Scotrail. I thought this had now been resolved, it appears there were around 70 last min cancellations to yesterday's services due to staffing issues I think.

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It was actually a wave to the Tories asking the Scottish government to fix our issues last month when they're silent regarding this strike.

The businesses running the separate rail companies in England should up their game, and get it sorted.

I've no issues at all with them striking

Always baffles me when the ordinary worker attacks folk for striking then uses another underpaid undervalued public sector to compare them against

Il be following the teachers pay negotiations closley - EIS only told them to take the small increase now (meant to be last years rises) so it didn't get this years 10 percent negotions dragged down



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Originally Posted by Callum_62

I've no issues at all with them striking

Always baffles me when the ordinary worker attacks folk for striking then uses another unpaid undervalued public sector to compare them against

Il be following the teachers pay negotions closley - EIS only told them to take the small increase now (meant to be last years rises) so it didn't get this years 10 percent negotions dragged down



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The nurses get it tight every time.

Why don't they use the bankers?

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Originally Posted by ronaldo7

The nurses get it tight every time.

Why don't they use the bankers?

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I've never seen nurses being brought up in such a way...

Bankers are getting 1.5%, train drivers should be happy with that.

https://www.efinancialcareers.com/news/2022/05/pay-inflation-banking

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Originally Posted by danhibees1875

I've never seen nurses being brought up in such a way...

Bankers are getting 1.5%, train drivers should be happy with that.

https://www.efinancialcareers.com/news/2022/05/pay-inflation-banking

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You only have to read the thread to see nurses mentioned.

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Originally Posted by ronaldo7

The nurses get it tight every time.

Why don't they use the bankers?

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What are nurses getting tight?

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Originally Posted by ronaldo7

You only have to read the thread to see nurses mentioned.

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As far as I can see the only mentions of nurses on this thread are to say they are probably underpaid?

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Originally Posted by ronaldo7

You only have to read the thread to see nurses mentioned.

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"mentioned" is where your argument falls down IMO.

They're not mentioned in a way that could be construed as "getting it tight" as you put it.

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Originally Posted by Callum_62

I've no issues at all with them striking

Always baffles me when the ordinary worker attacks folk for striking then uses another unpaid undervalued public sector to compare them against

Il be following the teachers pay negotions closley - EIS only told them to take the small increase now (meant to be last years rises) so it didn't get this years 10 percent negotions dragged down



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What about undervalued private sector workers? They often work with less favourable contractual conditions than public sector workers. Take retail staff as an example, never stopped throughout the Pandemic, poor pay and conditions, subjected to abuse and aggression which is on the increase btw. A lot of workers in this sector are overseas workers, they're not aware of employment legislation and their rights. In my experience they often see joining a Union as a waste of their hard earned wage.

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Originally Posted by danhibees1875

"mentioned" is where your argument falls down IMO.

They're not mentioned in a way that could be construed as "getting it tight" as you put it.

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The post at 215 says this... Train drivers have had pay rises totalling nearly 40 per cent over the last decade, way in excess of, say, nursing staff.

The Union and employer negotiated those deals over the 10 year period. Why should it be used to bash the railway workers now?

Why the need to bring nursing staff into a dispute about Rail workers. It's the tried and tested divide and conquer I'm seeing played out on my TV this morning.

The RMT are correct in looking after their workers, I just wish more unions would do likewise.

I support them 100%, and as someone that uses the trains and enjoys it I hope they win and ensure the service doesn’t get even further ripped apart.

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Originally Posted by ronaldo7

The post at 215 says this... Train drivers have had pay rises totalling nearly 40 per cent over the last decade, way in excess of, say, nursing staff.

The Union and employer negotiated those deals over the 10 year period. Why should it be used to bash the railway workers now?

Why the need to bring nursing staff into a dispute about Rail workers. It's the tried and tested divide and conquer I'm seeing played out on my TV this morning.

The RMT are correct in looking after their workers, I just wish more unions would do likewise.

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Remind me, when the Glasgow City Council refuse workers took industrial action during COP26, was there an implication that Anas Sarwar was somehow stirring it for political motives? I'm not saying it was you who posted that, I honestly can't recall, but there was someone (pro SNP) making this suggestion. It's Gov's that are the cause of conquer and divide amongst public sector workers imo. Police 3% - rail workers 5%, that's avoidable if Gov's applied the same acceptable pay rise across the board.

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Originally Posted by Since90+2

As far as I can see the only mentions of nurses on this thread are to say they are probably underpaid?

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That's your take. :wink:

Mine is that they're been used in the post to say the RMT should be more like the nurses and accept lower wage offers.

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Originally Posted by Santa Cruz

Remind me, when the Glasgow City Council refuse workers took industrial action during COP26, was there an implication that Anas Sarwar was somehow stirring it for political motives? I'm not saying it was you who posted that, I honestly can't recall, but there was someone (pro SNP) making this suggestion. It's Gov's that are the cause of conquer and divide amongst public sector workers imo. Police 3% - rail workers 5%, that's avoidable if Gov's applied the same acceptable pay rise across the board.

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The refuse workers saw an opportunity to raise the profile of their case during COP26. It happens in all areas of life. Just like Anas saw a photo opportunity to go down the back alleys of his constituency to raise the point. Screaming Chris Mitchell was a bit OTT imo though.

I'd have rather seen the GMB Union support their women workers in their equal pay dispute in Glasgow instead of taking them to court.

Back on topic.

Support the RMT.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ronaldo7

The post at 215 says this... Train drivers have had pay rises totalling nearly 40 per cent over the last decade, way in excess of, say, nursing staff.

The Union and employer negotiated those deals over the 10 year period. Why should it be used to bash the railway workers now?

Why the need to bring nursing staff into a dispute about Rail workers. It's the tried and tested divide and conquer I'm seeing played out on my TV this morning.

The RMT are correct in looking after their workers, I just wish more unions would do likewise.

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Nurses aren't getting it tight there IMO, but fair enough if that's the way you see it then that's the way you see it. :aok:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ronaldo7

The refuse workers saw an opportunity to raise the profile of their case during COP26. It happens in all areas of life. Just like Anas saw a photo opportunity to go down the back alleys of his constituency to raise the point. Screaming Chris Mitchell was a bit OTT imo though.

I'd have rather seen the GMB Union support their women workers in their equal pay dispute in Glasgow instead of taking them to court.

Back on topic.

Support the RMT.

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lol, Anas saw a photo opp...brilliant. FM totally camera shy eh.:wink:

Aye, back on track, all workers in every sector right across the UK deserve fair pay and conditions, I'm all for that.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Santa Cruz

lol, Anas saw a photo opp...brilliant. FM totally camera shy eh.:wink:

Aye, back on track, all workers in every sector right across the UK deserve fair pay and conditions, I'm all for that.

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I don't think she was invited. :greengrin

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Originally Posted by ronaldo7

I don't think she was invited. :greengrin

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cough, cough...

https://www.express.co.uk/news/polit...trike-scotland

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Originally Posted by Santa Cruz

cough, cough...

https://www.express.co.uk/news/polit...trike-scotland

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To the photo shoot. :greengrin

Well done though. :aok:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ronaldo7

That's your take. :wink:

Mine is that they're been used in the post to say the RMT should be more like the nurses and accept lower wage offers.

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Why doesn't that surprise me that you take it as a negative 😅

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Originally Posted by Since90+2

Why doesn't that surprise me that you take it as a negative 😅

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I don't.

I take it as a positive that the RMT have looked after their workers, and continue to do so. :na na:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ronaldo7

I don't.

I take it as a positive that the RMT have looked after their workers, and continue to do so. :na na:

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What's with the whole nurses getting it tight chat then? Literally nobody has done that so it's a rather bizarre take on it.

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Originally Posted by Since90+2

What's with the whole nurses getting it tight chat then? Literally nobody has done that so it's a rather bizarre take on it.

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The nurses get it tight when they're rolled out as the group to be measured against. You've obviously not noticed. It happens regularly. :aok:

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Originally Posted by ronaldo7

The nurses get it tight when they're rolled out as the group to be measured against. You've obviously not noticed. It happens regularly. :aok:

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On here and in the general public nurses are well respected and supported.

I think you're seeing things that aren't there to be honest.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ronaldo7

The nurses get it tight when they're rolled out as the group to be measured against. You've obviously not noticed. It happens regularly. :aok:

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I think it's the opposite. Mps are getting this whilst nurses getting this ect, the last 2 years especially

https://news.sky.com/story/barrister...looms-12637273

Criminal barristers have become the latest group to vote for strike action as the government comes under intensifying pressure over pay demands.

The Criminal Bar Association, which represents lawyers prosecuting and defending those accused of crimes in England and Wales, said members had backed a plan for 14 days of action between 27 June and 22 July.

https://scontent.fman1-2.fna.fbcdn.n...ag&oe=62B59338


Tory welt telt

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Originally Posted by cabbageandribs1875

https://scontent.fman1-2.fna.fbcdn.n...ag&oe=62B59338


Tory welt telt

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Divide and conquer

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Originally Posted by cabbageandribs1875

https://scontent.fman1-2.fna.fbcdn.n...ag&oe=62B59338


Tory welt telt

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Matt Hancock is a welt and it would be good to see him getting telt, but the RMT statement doesn't help their cause. It's littered with inaccuracy and inexactitude

For track and trace and for unused PPE the nearest estimates I've seen come in around £50bn max. The NHS costed something like £120-130bn a year (and rising) pre-Covid. That leaves a shortfall of £70bn in the RMT sums and that's only for one year, not the funding 'for years' they make out.

Now if they are including fraud then that's another thing. But I think it would be difficult to estimate that accurately. And if it was fraud then they shouldn't accuse the Tories of 'wasting' it, they should accuse them of letting taxpayers' money be stolen, on their watch. In fact if they get good legal advice they would be better making statements that linked the awarding of public money to the Tory government's friends and donors, with little evidence of value for money.

Anyway, what also doesn't help the RMT are the claims about payrises and foodbbanks - they are spurious in the extreme. Even in times of relative prosperity there was and would always be a need for food parcels and the like, whether directly from the local authority or a voluntary sector organisation. Lofty promises to close every foodbank is just rhetoric.

As for every low-paid worker, why just them? Why not people on universal credit, or the state pension? And how much above inflation and what about next year and the year after.

Whether the RMT have a reasonable case for their salary proposals is one thing. Presenting their case like this reads like they left the Twitter feed in the hands of Owen Jones, if Owen Jones had been given too many chocolate buttons and was getting a bit carried away with himself :greengrin

The Tories are doing what they do very well, saying the right things to sway the 'undecideds' out there. With statements like this the RMT make it that little bit easier for the Tories.

Scottish Tories must be all over the airwaves today complaining about the rail chaos in Scotland?


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

Scottish Tories must be all over the airwaves today complaining about the rail chaos in Scotland?


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Well it's nothing to do with Scotrail, so I expect it's all Nippy's fault. :grr:

Doubtless Reporting Ferries will tell us tonight.

Scottish government should be seeking compensation from the owner of network rail, for failure to allow them to use the track. 🚂

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ronaldo7

Scottish government should be seeking compensation from the owner of network rail, for failure to allow them to use the track. [emoji577]

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They probably will and unionists will find a way of connecting grievance out of it. Something along the lines of struggling rail operators held to ransom by Scots NATS means they can't afford to give the pay rise they always really wanted to give their staff.

I amazed that the number of posters seem to think unions are bad or their members don’t deserve a pay rise. Not one union official votes in ballots for strike action it is the members that decide. For those in the private sector who claim they get treated worse than the public sector the message is simple join a union get organised and fight back. Low pay and divide and conquer has been a tactic used for centuries to keep workers down.

On a separate note I’m delighted to see the U.K. government honouring the triple lock guarantee on pensions, which means those in retirement will receive a cost of living increase it’s just a shame they don’t think worker deserve it too

Quote:

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Originally Posted by lucky

I amazed that the number of posters seem to think unions are bad or their members don’t deserve a pay rise. Not one union official votes in ballots for strike action it is the members that decide. For those in the private sector who claim they get treated worse than the public sector the message is simple join a union get organised and fight back. Low pay and divide and conquer has been a tactic used for centuries to keep workers down.

On a separate note I’m delighted to see the U.K. government honouring the triple lock guarantee on pensions, which means those in retirement will receive a cost of living increase it’s just a shame they don’t think worker deserve it too

---

The Governments decision here is laughable and clear to anyone with half a brain that they are just rewarding their supporters.

That's not to say as you do that pensions shouldn't rise, but apparently for Boris and Co putting up pensions by 9% isn't going to adversely impact inflation, but we have to be very careful with salaries.

It's a almost as if pensioners vote for them on mass...

Sorry but I am a pensioner.Most certainly not a Tory voter

Quote:

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Originally Posted by staunchhibby

Sorry but I am a pensioner.Most certainly not a Tory voter

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It's all about averages though. The pensioner vote is weighed to the right and they vote in big numbers. Even though there is many on the good side like yourself

CWU balloting postal workers on strike action.

Good, the more we see workers start to stand up for their rights and unions regain the power that was taken from them the better.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by staunchhibby

Sorry but I am a pensioner.Most certainly not a Tory voter

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I'll second that.

https://archive.ph/p5OPy

UK’s biggest teacher union threatens strike unless Government awards ‘inflation-plus’ pay increase
EXCLUSIVEThe NEU says it will be ‘throwing the kitchen sink’ at plans to ensure teachers ‘get the pay rise they deserve’

The letter calls for Mr Zahawi to change his evidence to the STRB – the independent body which advises the Government on teacher pay – to “indicate that above inflation pay rises should be awarded for experienced teachers; it is not good enough to propose higher rises only for beginner teachers (which are themselves likely to be lower than inflation).”

Strikers portrayed as "Putins friends" by some standard Tory yakyakker.

https://twitter.com/AyoCaesar/status...QP000L6mw&s=19

Meanwhile a Conservative Party fund raiser, attended by actual Russians with links to the KGB and Putin took place this week.

https://www.museumsassociation.org/m...er-ball-at-va/

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by cabbageandribs1875

https://scontent.fman1-2.fna.fbcdn.n...ag&oe=62B59338


Tory welt telt

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I have a feeling that this isn’t going the way the Tories expected. I think more people are backing the strikers than expected.

There’s been a definite shift of mood the more time goes on.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by lucky

I amazed that the number of posters seem to think unions are bad or their members don’t deserve a pay rise. Not one union official votes in ballots for strike action it is the members that decide. For those in the private sector who claim they get treated worse than the public sector the message is simple join a union get organised and fight back. Low pay and divide and conquer has been a tactic used for centuries to keep workers down.

On a separate note I’m delighted to see the U.K. government honouring the triple lock guarantee on pensions, which means those in retirement will receive a cost of living increase it’s just a shame they don’t think worker deserve it too

---

I worked for a UK company that had a hub in Germany. When the hub opened we had exactly the same T&Cs as those in the UK but over a few years our T&Cs were far superior to those in the UK because we unionised and fought tooth and nail for improvements. Our UK colleagues used to constantly bitch that we were being given preferential treatment just couldn't fathom why we had much higher pay and better working conditions. Yet when you mentioned the word union they'd all pull a face as if you'd just farted in public. Somehow the UK public have been conditioned to think that unions are almost criminal, whereas mostly they help balance the power between employer and employee. I wonder how much of workers rights have to be diluted and how much more the balance of power needs to sway in favour of employers before they finally wake up.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg

I worked for a UK company that had a hub in Germany. When the hub opened we had exactly the same T&Cs as those in the UK but over a few years our T&Cs were far superior to those in the UK because we unionised and fought tooth and nail for improvements. Our UK colleagues used to constantly bitch that we were being given preferential treatment just couldn't fathom why we had much higher pay and better working conditions. Yet when you mentioned the word union they'd all pull a face as if you'd just farted in public. Somehow the UK public have been conditioned to think that unions are almost criminal, whereas mostly they help balance the power between employer and employee. I wonder how much of workers rights have to be diluted and how much more the balance of power needs to sway in favour of employers before they finally wake up.

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Unions being viewed as 'almost criminal' stems from the 80s and 90s, a much more revealing period in labour relations than the 70s, which is the era we're encouraged to pick apart for political lessons. And when Labour MPs are briefing that their whips are encouraging them to 'issue public apologies or face disciplinary action' for joining a picket line, who's actually surprised?

If you want protection at work, whether from dodgy health and safety, pay or pensions, you're better in a union. That's why they always under attack from government.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pretty Boy

CWU balloting postal workers on strike action.

Good, the more we see workers start to stand up for their rights and unions regain the power that was taken from them the better.

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:agree:

The biggest difference we can make to our day to day lives comes not from constitutional change, it comes from joining a union and using the power that brings to make real change.

Edinburgh Tram workers threatening to strike during the festival after rejecting a 4% rise. I think they are paid around 25k per year.

Will be a disaster for hospitality although not as bad as if bus drivers were to strike, but I have a hunch that is probably a certainty. Very worrying times for those who work in hospitality as a lot of venues make enough money during the festival to get them through the quiet months, strikes would genuinely threaten jobs.

That is not having a dig at the drivers btw, they have a right to strike for better terms and conditions but the reality of the situation.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg

Somehow the UK public have been conditioned to think that unions are almost criminal

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Not a mystery how that conditioning has come about. Tony Benn used to be very good on the subject of how disputes were always presented in the media. It was always "Bosses offered workers 5% but unions demanded to be paid more", never "Workers offered to work for 6% but bosses demanded they work for less".

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Since90+2

Edinburgh Tram workers threatening to strike during the festival after rejecting a 4% rise. I think they are paid around 25k per year.

Will be a disaster for hospitality although not as bad as if bus drivers were to strike, but I have a hunch that is probably a certainty. Very worrying times for those who work in hospitality as a lot of venues make enough money during the festival to get them through the quiet months, strikes would genuinely threaten jobs.

That is not having a dig at the drivers btw, they have a right to strike for better terms and conditions but the reality of the situation.

---

You will know your industry better than me but I'd be surprised if it were a 'disaster' for hospitality during the festival? Lots of Edinburgh easily accessible on foot for most, small city, most venues clustered around concentrated areas, it obviously depends where you live but trams don't serve a big area anyway, I've never set foot on one in 12 years and I use the bus all the time.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by hibsbollah

You will know your industry better than me but I'd be surprised if it were a 'disaster' for hospitality during the festival? Lots of Edinburgh easily accessible on foot for most, small city, most venues clustered around concentrated areas, it obviously depends where you live but trams don't serve a big area anyway, I've never set foot on one in 12 years and I use the bus all the time.

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I think I'd be inclined to agree. I don't think the trams would have much of an impact. At the moment they don't have enough of a reach and there's plentiful alternatives with the bus service. People would just find alternative methods into the city as opposed to not coming into the city - trains and buses would be able to have a more impactful strike in this regard.

It's an interesting story though if they're explicitly targeting festival time in order to inconvenience/jeopardise the jobs of others at an important time to make their point. Obviously there's a balance as from their perspective a strike is no good if it doesn't impact other people - like the climate activists on motorways I guess.

Been impressed with both the aslef guys in Scotland and the RMT guy in England. Working hard for their members while being willing to negotiate. Didn’t used to have much time for unions but can see things have went too far the other way in this country now and there needs to be a swing the other way. More power to them so long as they don’t start to get to political again.


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by hibsbollah

You will know your industry better than me but I'd be surprised if it were a 'disaster' for hospitality during the festival? Lots of Edinburgh easily accessible on foot for most, small city, most venues clustered around concentrated areas, it obviously depends where you live but trams don't serve a big area anyway, I've never set foot on one in 12 years and I use the bus all the time.

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I think disaster was probably a bit strong but it will undoubtedly have an impact on people being able to move around the city (there's over 7 million passenger journeys a year on the trams). And we know driving is pretty much a no no around Edinburgh city centre so it rules that out.

If the buses strike at that time then all bets are off as they say.

Seen this on Facebook earlier

https://www.facebook.com/10000645000...?sfnsn=scwspmo

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BTW balloting for strike, when it revealed they have set up food banks for staff, although they call them community food hubs

https://www.bigissue.com/news/employ...try-own-staff/

Dave Ward
@DaveWard GS c w Union
·

BT Group made £1.3bn profit.

BT Group paid out £700m to shareholders.

BT Group CEO paid £3.5m this year.

BT Group have opened foodbanks at work because staff can’t get through the month on their own pay.

No more. No further. The line is drawn.

Nurseborisbash
·
I'm a very experienced A&E nurse and my wage is so low that as a widowed single parent I also receive universal credit.
So don't you dare use the fact that as a life saver, I've been undervalued by government as an excuse to bash the #RMTstrikes !
They are paving the way for me

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

BTW balloting for strike, when it revealed they have set up food banks for staff, although they call them community food hubs

https://www.bigissue.com/news/employ...try-own-staff/

Dave Ward
@DaveWard GS c w Union
·

BT Group made £1.3bn profit.

BT Group paid out £700m to shareholders.

BT Group CEO paid £3.5m this year.

BT Group have opened foodbanks at work because staff can’t get through the month on their own pay.

No more. No further. The line is drawn.

---

We really are reliving Victorian times again where working isn't enough to survive.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

Been impressed with both the aslef guys in Scotland and the RMT guy in England. Working hard for their members while being willing to negotiate. Didn’t used to have much time for unions but can see things have went too far the other way in this country now and there needs to be a swing the other way. More power to them so long as they don’t start to get to political again.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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Serious question because Im interested in hearing from yhe other side here. How could unions be seen as anything but a good thing? (Unless you are a profit hungry corporation). They fight for the rights of workers and prevent bosses from bullying the workers at the bottom.

I've had one job where we weren't unionised and we got 1% a year and t&Cs taken away. The job I'm in now is unionised and we got 6% in April and we're getting another 2.5% in October. There's no way we'd have gotten that without the collective backing the union provided

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SChibs

Serious question because Im interested in hearing from yhe other side here. How could unions be seen as anything but a good thing? (Unless you are a profit hungry corporation). They fight for the rights of workers and prevent bosses from bullying the workers at the bottom.

I've had one job where we weren't unionised and we got 1% a year and t&Cs taken away. The job I'm in now is unionised and we got 6% in April and we're getting another 2.5% in October. There's no way we'd have gotten that without the collective backing the union provided

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I think there is the wrong opinion that unions are toothless nowadays unfortunately

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

Nurseborisbash
·
I'm a very experienced A&E nurse and my wage is so low that as a widowed single parent I also receive universal credit.
So don't you dare use the fact that as a life saver, I've been undervalued by government as an excuse to bash the #RMTstrikes !
They are paving the way for me

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Must be part time then, a registered band 5 nurse earns £33k basic

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aldot1981

Must be part time then, a registered band 5 nurse earns £33k basic

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This nurse is band 5 works 30 hours and gets universal credit. I'd guess a widowed parents working hours is limited

https://www.bigissue.com/news/social-justice/universal-credit-cut-senior-nhs-nurse-says-she-goes-to-work-worrying-about-bailiffs/

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

This nurse is band 5 works 30 hours and gets universal credit. I'd guess a widowed parents working hours is limited

https://www.bigissue.com/news/social-justice/universal-credit-cut-senior-nhs-nurse-says-she-goes-to-work-worrying-about-bailiffs/

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Here's another greedy nurses

She said the Government’s plan to scrap the uplift felt like a “massive slap in the face”, made worse by the fact she has worked hard to support Covid-19 patients throughout the pandemic.
“I’m the highest level that I can be as a nurse, and I still have to claim Universal Credit because I don’t have enough money in my wages,” she told i.
“It makes me ask why I bothered with a master’s degree, or having the higher, more stressful senior position.”
Juggling childcare commitments with a 30-hour working week puts Lily’s monthly wage at £1,400. A total of £950 of that goes on rent – the cheapest flat she could find in her area – and council tax is another £150.
Without factoring in energy bills, running a car, or the food shop, Lily is left with £300 for the month.
“It’s almost £100 a month they’re going to be taking away – that’s just so much in one lump sum,” she said.
“We don’t go on holiday, we don’t have a pet, we don’t eat out – sometimes I’m swapping my dinner for cereal so the girls can have healthy food.
“I’m back to worrying about affording mine and my family’s very basic existence.”

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

Been impressed with both the aslef guys in Scotland and the RMT guy in England. Working hard for their members while being willing to negotiate. Didn’t used to have much time for unions but can see things have went too far the other way in this country now and there needs to be a swing the other way. More power to them so long as they don’t start to get to political again.


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A non-political trade union isn't doing it's job properly. They don't necessarily have to be party political, but the issue of low pay and bad working conditions comes down to how society is structured and the only way to change that is through political change.

Good news, and a good deal hammered out by the Union.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotla...mpaign=KARANGA

ScotRail drivers will see their pay climb by 5% and also get more money for rest day and Sunday working, driving instructor and maternity pay along with a policy of no compulsory redundancies for the next five years.

The nationalised train operator said 2.2% of the increase would be funded by Transport Scotland with the remaining 2.8% coming from ScotRail's funds.

ScotRail came back into public ownership for the first time in 25 years in April, after previous operator Abellio had its franchise ended early over criticism of the quality of the service.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ronaldo7

Good news, and a good deal hammered out by the Union.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotla...mpaign=KARANGA

ScotRail drivers will see their pay climb by 5% and also get more money for rest day and Sunday working, driving instructor and maternity pay along with a policy of no compulsory redundancies for the next five years.

The nationalised train operator said 2.2% of the increase would be funded by Transport Scotland with the remaining 2.8% coming from ScotRail's funds.

ScotRail came back into public ownership for the first time in 25 years in April, after previous operator Abellio had its franchise ended early over criticism of the quality of the service.

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Aslef reject a similar offer for train companies in London and the South East, strike action now going to happen down there.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

Aslef reject a similar offer for train companies in London and the South East, strike action now going to happen down there.

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Aye, we've still got the Network rail dispute to deal with too. You'd think the Tories would get their eye back on the ball, and get it sorted.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ronaldo7

Good news, and a good deal hammered out by the Union.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotla...mpaign=KARANGA

ScotRail drivers will see their pay climb by 5% and also get more money for rest day and Sunday working, driving instructor and maternity pay along with a policy of no compulsory redundancies for the next five years.

The nationalised train operator said 2.2% of the increase would be funded by Transport Scotland with the remaining 2.8% coming from ScotRail's funds.

ScotRail came back into public ownership for the first time in 25 years in April, after previous operator Abellio had its franchise ended early over criticism of the quality of the service.

---

So still 4%ish below inflation?

I'm outraged on their behalf [emoji23]

I'd kill for a 5% raise

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Just_Jimmy

So still 4%ish below inflation?

I'm outraged on their behalf [emoji23]

I'd kill for a 5% raise

Sent from my SM-G991B using Tapatalk

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I think they've done well to get a decent package for their members. 5%, and an increase on week end working, increased maternity benefits and no compulsory redundancies for 5 years is massive.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

Aslef reject a similar offer for train companies in London and the South East, strike action now going to happen down there.

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Doubtless to take place in bang in the middle of the school summer holidays, probably around the Commonwealth Games just to ensure maximum inconvenience.

Haven't had a pay rise since those oh so long ago days of 2019...I'd have thought that on 60k a year you could just about make ends meet.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ronaldo7

I think they've done well to get a decent package for their members. 5%, and an increase on week end working, increased maternity benefits and no compulsory redundancies for 5 years is massive.

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So do I, hence I said I'd love 5%. It was a bit tounge in check. Sorry if it didn't come over that way.

Sent from my SM-G991B using Tapatalk

Quote:

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Originally Posted by hibsbollah

Unions being viewed as 'almost criminal' stems from the 80s and 90s, a much more revealing period in labour relations than the 70s, which is the era we're encouraged to pick apart for political lessons. And when Labour MPs are briefing that their whips are encouraging them to 'issue public apologies or face disciplinary action' for joining a picket line, who's actually surprised?

If you want protection at work, whether from dodgy health and safety, pay or pensions, you're better in a union. That's why they always under attack from government.

---

Some of them fully deserved the flak they got. Among the worst were the print unions, who eventually got screwed over by Murdoch moving operations to Wapping. Prior to that the practices of the Fleet Street print unions were so restrictive that they quite literally held the papers to ransom (this of course at a time when newspapers were a key source of information and were bought in enormous quantities). Union bosses used to earn more than the editors of the papers they worked for, disruptive practices (eg sticking chewing gum in presses to break a print run) were commonplace. The Sunday Times' exposure of the thalidomide scandal was one of the biggest national interest stories massively disrupted by such actions.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by He's here!

Doubtless to take place in bang in the middle of the school summer holidays, probably around the Commonwealth Games just to ensure maximum inconvenience.

Haven't had a pay rise since those oh so long ago days of 2019...I'd have thought that on 60k a year you could just about make ends meet.

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Good. It's about time the Unions got the free collective bargaining working for the people again. You strike when it is good for you to do so, not the employer.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ronaldo7

Good. It's about time the Unions got the free collective bargaining working for the people again. You strike when it is good for you to do so, not the employer.

---

Yep.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ronaldo7

Good. It's about time the Unions got the free collective bargaining working for the people again. You strike when it is good for you to do so, not the employer.

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How does the strike 'work for the people' whose plans get screwed by it? This action by an exceptionally well paid body of workers is out of proportion to the scale of their grievance.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by He's here!

How does the strike 'work for the people' whose plans get screwed by it? This action by an exceptionally well paid body of workers is out of proportion to the scale of their grievance.

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The strike is to help the union get the employer to come to a better agreement for their members. Why doesn't the employer stop paying the shareholders as much money, and give some back to the workers?

If the employers can't be bothered with getting a deal on the table which suits both sides, then they're putting the people out on a limb.

Deals can be worked out as indicated today with Scotrail.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by He's here!

How does the strike 'work for the people' whose plans get screwed by it? This action by an exceptionally well paid body of workers is out of proportion to the scale of their grievance.

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If my plans had been screwed by it I would get on at the Train Companies demanding that they maintain their workers standard of Living.

I really don't care if they earn more than me, if my Union got its act together I would earn more too. Workers really need to start sticking up for each other but the MSM and Tories seem to have hypnotised many into sticking the boot into their own before the companies that overcharge and underpay. A train Driver does an incredibly important job with huge responsibilities and deserves their remuneration. They are getting what they are due because they stood up and fought management. The rest of us have been screwed because we let them turn us round, bend us over and... its a family site but you get the drift.

If their grievance is so that insignificant then surely their bosses could sort it out easily enough. Hopefully the Civil Service will vote to go out on strike and if we do I want us to take out the parts that will have most impact. Stop immigration control, tax collection, the courts etc etc. IT is about time the worth of workers was recognised, and those that need to recognise it most are other workers.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by He's here!

Doubtless to take place in bang in the middle of the school summer holidays, probably around the Commonwealth Games just to ensure maximum inconvenience.

Haven't had a pay rise since those oh so long ago days of 2019...I'd have thought that on 60k a year you could just about make ends meet.

---

One section of the workforce is on 60k. The cleaners, caterers and train guards aren't on that much so do they not deserve a payrise? Regardless they have their salary and it should be increased every year to adjust for inflation.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wookie70

If my plans had been screwed by it I would get on at the Train Companies demanding that they maintain their workers standard of Living.

I really don't care if they earn more than me, if my Union got its act together I would earn more too. Workers really need to start sticking up for each other but the MSM and Tories seem to have hypnotised many into sticking the boot into their own before the companies that overcharge and underpay. A train Driver does an incredibly important job with huge responsibilities and deserves their remuneration. They are getting what they are due because they stood up and fought management. The rest of us have been screwed because we let them turn us round, bend us over and... its a family site but you get the drift.

If their grievance is so that insignificant then surely their bosses could sort it out easily enough. Hopefully the Civil Service will vote to go out on strike and if we do I want us to take out the parts that will have most impact. Stop immigration control, tax collection, the courts etc etc. IT is about time the worth of workers was recognised, and those that need to recognise it most are other workers.

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I’m a Civil Servant and id be stunned if we’re on strike any time soon.

Terrible union who usually tell you how delighted they are to announce your 1% pay rise 6 months late.