Nobody said they have all the exact same rights as we see with Sports. She perfectly consistent.Quote:
Originally Posted by He's here!
And nothing to do with the GRA.
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Nobody said they have all the exact same rights as we see with Sports. She perfectly consistent.Quote:
Originally Posted by He's here!
And nothing to do with the GRA.
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I don't think you can just dismiss this as being unrelated to legislation. For the many women who have aired concerns about women's spaces becoming open to men who claim they are women the prisons furore vindicates those fears and their concerns that the blocked SG legislation will only exacerbate the problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
I remember reading an interview with J K Rowling a few months ago in which she predicted Sturgeon's gender legislation would prove to be her poll tax and thinking it was a bit of a stretch to believe that. Now I'm not quite so sure...
I’m sure it’s trans women who have committed assaults on women that are to be housed in male prisons. I think that’s absolutely right and hiw it should be. It absolutely should be about protecting vulnerable women. The journalist was right to question her but it wasn’t really relevant to what is front and centre at the moment.Quote:
Originally Posted by He's here!
Now if you remove Nicola Sturgeon's responses and look at the line of questioning from Peter Smith here. It's the typical YES/NO line of questioning, where the interviewer hopes for a YES/NO response without the allowance of any context to be applied. They simply move on to the next question.Quote:
Originally Posted by He's here!
What about the protection of vulnerable women from other women? Should those women be housed in the same prison? Or what about vulnerable men requiring protection from other men?Quote:
Originally Posted by greenlex
Why has it all been reduced to a trans-only issue?
Because 99% of rape and sexual assault is committed by men, there is an obvious physical advantage too. The vast majority of trans women don't medically change, biologically they are men.Quote:
Originally Posted by HarpOnHibee
I can't believe that's the second person tonight to try the what about women housed with dangerous women
Are you seriously questioning the reasoning why a biological male offender with a record of violence against women either physical or sexual shouldn’t be in a women only prison? Prisons are full of vulnerable prisoners. That’s why sex offenders are house in different areas from non sex offenders.Quote:
Originally Posted by HarpOnHibee
Indeed. So why does it matter if a trans-woman with sexual offences ends up in a female prison, if they're going to be housed in a different area anyway?Quote:
Originally Posted by greenlex
Former governor of gateshead says they did mixQuote:
Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns
https://mobile.twitter.com/joannaccherry/status/1619973203396526083
Joanna Cherry KC
@joannaccherry
Let’s listen to former prison governor
@HotchkissRhona
speaking about life for vulnerable women accommodated with transgender prisoners in Scotland. This is lived experience not transphobia or any other phobia for that matter
I’m sure there will be times they mix briefly probs my due to staffing issues etc. I don’t think they should be near female etc offenders either. They shouldn’t be near female prison officers either IMOQuote:
Originally Posted by HarpOnHibee
Why? Are female prison officers weaker and less capable of carrying out their job compared to male prison officers?Quote:
Originally Posted by greenlex
They aren't in different areas. Trans women mix with females ,no one is in continuous solitary confinement because a sexual offence as that would break their human rightsQuote:
Originally Posted by HarpOnHibee
Restraining a male prisoner of course they are.Quote:
Originally Posted by HarpOnHibee
Maybe not if they're biological males claiming to be female :wink:Quote:
Originally Posted by greenlex
Female officers and Male officers all receive the same training for dealing with this kind of thing. Believe it or not, men get arrested by female officers rather frequently, they know what they're doing.Quote:
Originally Posted by greenlex
That's an interesting and informative listen.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7
Well if they're willing to claim to be female just to attack women in the ladies, then what's stopping them?Quote:
Originally Posted by He's here!
Have you any idea how heartless that sounds? I know it's an attack line, but I can't accept that you really mean itQuote:
Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg
One of to he offenders in question asked to be attended to and searched by women officers only. You ok with that?Quote:
Originally Posted by HarpOnHibee
Whether I'm personally ok with it or not is irrelevant. Officers (regardless of their gender) will carry their jobs out accordingly. That's what they are trained to do.Quote:
Originally Posted by archie
So there's no space for women prison officers to have any concerns about the interaction with a male sex offenders? Do you really believe this?Quote:
Originally Posted by HarpOnHibee
The former governor of a prison in England explains something about a prison in Scotland?Quote:
Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7
https://transsafety.network/tags/rhona-hotchkiss/
And openly anti trans!!!! 🙄
If they carry out their duties the way that they're trained to do so, then what's the concern? What do you think happens when a man gets arrested and there's only a female officer/officers at the scene? They still have to carry out all of the necessary searches just as a male officer would. Simply being female isn't some get out clause, they have to follow the necessary protocol, that's their job.Quote:
Originally Posted by archie
So just to be clear, a guy gets a power or sexual thrill from demanding that only women search him, and they just have to accept it because 'that's their job'. Even though they work on a women's prison?Quote:
Originally Posted by HarpOnHibee
I know you couldn't resist the English comment, but she was the former governor of Cornton Vale.Quote:
Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns
I don't think anyone could listen to Amanda Benson's account of what it is like for a female prisoner on what is know as a female estate which was meant to house 40 women prisoners but in reality had 38 women prisoners and 2 biological male prisoners, one of whom was there for murder, and the other who she describes as a very scary hulk of a man who was about 6'3 and in there for domestic violence and come to any other conclusion than this is completely wrong.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XL_tDdSzJPE
Ok then. What if the man demands a male officer searches him, only for him to get a sexual thrill from it because he's gay?Quote:
Originally Posted by archie
What's your solution, 147lothian?Quote:
Originally Posted by 147lothian
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My solution is quite simple, if your born male you go to a male prison, if your born female you go to a female prison.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kato
Transwomen need to be housed in male prison's because they were born male.
However Transwomen have to be treated like a vulnerable group of men on a male prison, with there own wing, and segregated from the wider prison population.
I saw gateshead mentioned!!Quote:
Originally Posted by archie
Have you seen how many men she assaulted and injured, including police officers? I don't think she would be that scared considering her record. Not to mention she had the option of a fine instead of time!!Quote:
Originally Posted by 147lothian
How does your solution work for those who have fully transitioned?Quote:
Originally Posted by 147lothian
My solution is still the same even for people who have fully transitioned. They still go to a male prison if they were born male or a female prison if they were born female, this is because biological sex is immutable a baby even before it is born has chromosomes that are either male or female and no amount of surgery changes this.Quote:
Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod
Again though I do believe that trans prisoners need to have their rights protected in prison and be housed in wings that are separate from the general prison population. I hate to be the barer of bad news but in reality no-one has ever been born in the wrong body and that is a fact.
They used to say the same thing about homosexuals. "They're not really homosexual, they're just choosing to be."Quote:
Originally Posted by 147lothian
I hate to be the barer of bad news, but in reality, you're not in these people's bodies to know whether they're in the right or wrong body and that is a fact.
Do you think there might be any power dynamic at play here?Quote:
Originally Posted by HarpOnHibee
Maybe so, but she is is a prominent ex Corton Vale governor.Quote:
Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns
I think full transition does change the position and makes being in the female prison estate more tenable. But there does need to be access to the full range of services given the complex health issues at play. I'm less certain about trans men in the male prison estate, as I think they could be at considerable risk.Quote:
Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod
What do they do in England with transgender prisoners?
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You've worded that wrong given the tone on this thread recently.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
Something like "Where does Sunak stick transgender prisoners?" ..no?
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Have you seen Sturgeon's car crash interview on news at ten last night? What a mess.Quote:
Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns
You don't do irony do you?Quote:
Originally Posted by archie
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...00573.html?amp
Seems situation in England is pretty much the same as in Scotland.
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Are Scotland making it women with male genitalia aren't going to be in female prisons too, big change.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
I'd read only 2 % of trans women get rid of the male genitalia. That surprised me I thought it would be much higher, as most people would say that's the thing that most identifies a male.
Probably sturgeons fault too :aok:Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
Looked like your common gardener 'journo asks FM to appologise for something she doesn't need to appologise for' type interview to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crunchie
The common gardener seemed to have her stuttering quite a bit, she didn't have a clue what to say.Quote:
Originally Posted by AgentDaleCooper
Nicola Sturgeon asked about Katie Dolatowski who sexualy assaulted a girl in toilets, yet is in a female prison
It seems its down to how much public pressure there is if someone gets moved
https://mobile.twitter.com/michaelpf...41046495543296
What we've done is set out clarity she says :faf:Quote:
Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7
Clear as mudQuote:
Originally Posted by Crunchie
TBH I'm struggling to see anything ironic in what you said. But sure, that must be me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg
Q - "Do you think trans people who are convicted of crimes like that (sex crimes) should be in women's jails?"
SNP MP Alyn Smith: "I've nothing to say on that"
Isn't Cornton Vale in his constituency?
Although he has history here.
https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/new...-election/amp/
Its good to see that some trans people acknowledge the reality of biological sex, for some trans people if there is no such thing as biological sex then there can be no such thing as trans, for Debbie Hayton things were much better 10 years ago before the activists who are themselves not trans came along with the nebulous concept of gender ideology. All people have done with gender ideology virtue signaling is they have turned trans rights into a circus.
https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/other...us/ar-AA16NiTR
I think both sides have turned this into a circus. A lot of men with no skin in the game at all contributing.Quote:
Originally Posted by 147lothian
IMO a 'debate' is not what should be happening - it should be a discussion, with sensitivity employed towards everyone affected. No need for all the 'behead TERFs'/'just say it as it is - big burly men' stuff. Totally destructive rhetoric.
And no acknowledgement of the womens contribution?Quote:
Originally Posted by AgentDaleCooper
The main argument from some posters on here is that male sex offenders are so desperate to get into the ladies toilets that they're willing to claim they're transgender to do so. The poster I quoted has argued this previously and now jokingly makes comments about transgender female police offers like it's all just a big joke for transgender females, but hey, I'm the bad guy.Quote:
Originally Posted by archie
Women are certainly affected most by the crazy policy of placing people in prison on the basis of how someone identifies rather than the reality of biological sex. If it wasn't for the Adam Graham AKA Isly Bryson situation causing international news coverage and a public uproar, Adam Burns AKA Tiffany Scott would have been transferred to a female prison, a very dangerous individual who stalked a 13 year old girl while in prison.Quote:
Originally Posted by archie
They are not the only ones, Amanda Benson gives her account of what it was like to be in prison at Gateside Prison in what is known as the female estate which was meant to house 40 female prisoners but in reality had 38 female prisoners and 2 biologically male prisoners, one of whom was in there for murder, the other who she describes as a scary hulk of a man who was about 6'3 who was in there for domestic violence.
According to Amanda Benson these incredibly violent men were walking around the communal shower area naked and sometimes clearly aroused. While she and other women were in cubicles with only a curtain to protect them.
https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/e...int_source=nba
I've got to say that's not the main argument I'm seeing. There is an argument about same sex spaces and the powerlessness many women feel about retaining these. Same sex care is also an issue. These are important issues, wouldn't you say?Quote:
Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg
https://twitter.com/bindelj/status/1620167434388008960?s=20&t=8PtprGIkNvL-xK3OTHizgw
The phrase used by JKR was actually 'hulking great rapist' which seems accurate enough. Sensitivity is all well and good but there's nothing subtle about the Bryson case. To try and adopt a 'sensitive' approach along the lines of 'everyone is who they say they are' (and, according to Sturgeon, anyone who disagrees is a bigot) is absurd in cases like this.Quote:
Originally Posted by AgentDaleCooper
Does the transgender bill remove the right to same sex care?Quote:
Originally Posted by archie
Taken in conjunction with the Haldane judgement it creates a situation whereby someone with a self ID'd GRC is treated as that sex. This is coupled with it being an offence to reveal if someone has a GRC makes it more likely. Having said that, the u turn on prisons opens this up again. Might other ministerial interventions occur for other situations given the precedent has been set? Who knows?Quote:
Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg
Gender rebels should quit snp says Alyn Smith, no room for a difference of opinions
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/c...e73250dc652343
Joanna Cherry's response
Joanna Cherry KC
@joannaccherry
Self identification was not promised in the SNP manifesto & our conference did not debate never mind back it. We rebels are going nowhere particularly now that events have substantiated our legitimate concerns. I hope that’s clear
Apart from anything else many of us have resisted years of bullying. Why on Earth would we give up now?
It's been pointed out before that self-ID is not in the manifesto. Smyth is talking rubbish. 'Play for the jersey'...jeez.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7
In saying that, I admire Cherry's stoicism by not (yet) resigning from the SNP after the way she's been treated by her own party.
You've made your position quite plain.Quote:
Originally Posted by 147lothian
Would that change if someone close to you was considering a change of gender?
Keith Brown said yesterday: 'If someone presents as a trans person we accept that at face value'. As you say, the prisons fiasco calls into question the wisdom of such an approach and self-ID full-stop.Quote:
Originally Posted by archie
I am sure Smyth was against the SNP’s official policy on an independent Scotland signing the TPNW (Treaty on the Prohibition of Nuclear Weapons) and said so. He seems to pick and choose what people should support or not support depending on his personal views, maybe he just needs to play for the jersey.Quote:
Originally Posted by He's here!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg
Getting a bit close to the 'would you support capital punishment if your daughter was killed ' argument. FWIW I think the argument needs detoxing if that's possible. Could we pause the legislation and perhaps have something like a citizens assembly to unpack the issues and find ways forward? Both sides would need to be open to being challenged. There has to be a way that respects the rights of all concerned surely.Quote:
Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod
https://www.gov.scot/publications/an...eview/pages/1/
Scot gov releases its review of funding for violence to women and girls services. The overwhelming responses from individuals and organisations call for single sex places.
"Single-sex spaces and services
The most frequent cross-cutting theme concerned the need for single-sex services and female-only staff. Respondents highlighted that single-sex services should be made into law, widely available, clearly advertised and co-exist with non-single-sex options. Responses suggested that single-sex spaces are vital to ensuring victims of VAWG feel safe and protected, otherwise women might self-exclude due to religious or cultural reasons."
Jesus christ.Quote:
Originally Posted by archie
????Quote:
Originally Posted by AgentDaleCooper
Totally agree.Quote:
Originally Posted by AgentDaleCooper
A very interesting and sensitive subject that should be treated with dignity and respect has been hijacked by morons.
I was talking about negative contributions, so for me, a cis male, with no skin in game, to start commenting on how women en mas are contributing to the discourse would be pretty royally misogynistic.Quote:
Originally Posted by archie
EDIT: sorry if i picked you up wrong, which i probably did...time for me to give this thread a break :aok:
They've treated her disgracefully, I hope and suspect she'll have the last laugh.Quote:
Originally Posted by He's here!
https://youtu.be/WqDlVtgeYnk
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So that's a no then.Quote:
Originally Posted by archie
I don't know how you can come to that conclusion from what I said. Care to expand?Quote:
Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg
i know i said i'd butt out, but this is the problem that seems to keep coming up, especially after something in the news - people, who as i keep saying, have no skin in the game, seem to interpret things so radically differently because the issue gets so heated.Quote:
Originally Posted by archie
Just out of interest, who do you think 'has skin in the game'.Quote:
Originally Posted by AgentDaleCooper
Surely anyone who is trans, female, has a close relative is female or just someone who supports the rights of any of the groups affected. Then again on the other hand I'm not a public sector worker but I'm very concerned about their dispute alsoQuote:
Originally Posted by archie
https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/...f-isla-bryson/
Article from former Cornton Vale governor. Be interesting to hear what the current governor thinks of this fiasco but as Hotchkiss points out they'd lose their job if they spoke out.
Has the transgender bill removed the right to same sex care? A simple yes or no will suffice.Quote:
Originally Posted by archie
My niece is up on holiday, she has 10 years in the care sector in Yorkshire.
I asked her about the intimate care of residents, something that has been brought up here, and she said that the care was very much the same for male and female residents, and administered by all staff in the same caring way. Men given care, such as toileting by female carers and vice versa, although probably 95% of care staff in her organisation are female.
Do the men complain? No.
I'm not being evasive, but as I said, in conjunction with the Haldane judgement, it may do. This would need tested if the legislation was to go through. This is from the evidence given to the UK parliament committee yesterday: it would be helpful to revisit after Haldane judgment. Up until the ruling, we were not sure if sex could be modified by GRC for purposes of EA. Haldane judgment goes further than that, so 'sex' is now 'legal sex'.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg
I think the defensive line you are pushing is that it's the 2004 Act that is operating. Also, there is no provision in the current Bill that specifically states anything on same sex care. But the legal sex issue (which impacts on same sex care) will need tested in court. There is potential for a trans person giving care and the person receiving care to have recourse to the courts in the case of disputes.
I know you crave a simple answer to this, but it's just not there. It's a complex interaction between a range of different pieces of legislation, with uncertain outcomes.
Oh well, that's that then.Quote:
Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns
I'll add that my niece is responsible for 250 staff, are first hand accounts not allowed in this debate?Quote:
Originally Posted by archie
Women can request same sex care, although I'm not sure what happens is a trans women is legally female and a business can't see if a birth certificate has been changed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns
My mum has worked in various care her whole life from elderly to severely disabled
Of course they are. I'm also not doubting the lived experience that your niece has. But what about this woman's perspective https://wingsoverscotland.com/the-invalid-women/Quote:
Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns
A repost on how gra will affect single sex care and spaces
https://murrayblackburnmackenzie.org...fing-for-msps/
I got that, but do you not see the issue where men are having to be cared for by female carers, is there actually any difference to a woman being given care by a legitimate trans woman?Quote:
Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7
cis and trans women. i think when i say 'has skin in the game' i probably mean something akin to 'has lived experience', though i know that phrase probably drives some folk up the wall.Quote:
Originally Posted by archie
i'm bothered about it because i have trans friends, and, obviously, friends and family who are cis women, some (actually a lot) of whom have been on the receiving end of varying degrees of predatory behaviour by men. many, i think the majority, actually approve of the GRR, but that is totally anecdotal so i don't expect you to take that seriously. genuinely, though, when i talk to those who are ardently in support of the legislation, i'm often trying to make the case that you have been arguing, just in order to try to get people to see common ground, because it really just seems to me that people don't necessarily fully understand both sides properly (i'm not saying that i do either though, i just try to!)
I think that's a false equivalence TBH. Also, you use the term 'legitimate trans woman'. I've not seen that before. What do you mean by that?Quote:
Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns
So no place for men or trans men?Quote:
Originally Posted by AgentDaleCooper
What's a legitimate trans woman? And what would you define as a non legitimate trans woman?Quote:
Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns
I think this is an important point.
When 99% of sexual assaults are committed by men women obviously have different hard gained protections.Quote:
Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns
I don't think anyone could confidently provide a simple yes or no answer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg
yeah, in relation to access to male only spaces - but that's not what anyone has been talking about on here. i think you're being either defensive or facetious.Quote:
Originally Posted by archie
let me try - no, it's not.Quote:
Originally Posted by He's here!
people are concerned that it has, because the media having been cynically bringing up loads of cases NOT affected by the legislation in order to discredit the SNP. i don't personally care for the SNP at all, but i think this is what is happening. it's very similar to Corbyn - they've seen their opening, and they have the crowbars out.
Not at all. I think this is a really important piece of social policy and related legislation. I think it's better for policy if there is widespread engagement with society rather than policy being something politicians 'do' to people.Quote:
Originally Posted by AgentDaleCooper
Why are Joanna Cherry and Ash Regan ex SNP Minister trying to discredit the SNP? And the others SNP MSPs that voted against it? Why would they look to discredit their own party?Quote:
Originally Posted by AgentDaleCooper
Doesn't really make sense does it.
there definitely is a difference - just look at the statistics, as pointed out by Stairway. It's why there is, at the very, very absolute bare minimum, an emotional legitimacy to women's concerns about the issue, which is why people need to be very careful in how they talk about it, and why all the 'TERF' stuff is so unhelpful.Quote:
Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns