SNP are lying b******s as well !

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Originally Posted by grunt

Yeah, what do those idiots at Public Health Scotland and the BMJ know, eh? Fools, every one of them, and certainly no match for Hibs.net's own S27.

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A government funded body campaigning for this for decades finds what is asked to find. Doctors groups were attacking the snp last week for stopping mask wearing. They will always go pro mitigation they don't care about finance's ect.

Your bright but be objective here. There headline findings was although deaths went up in Scotland to a record level, it went up slower than in England. They say therfore it saved lives so we should continue it.

They didn't say over the 30 years we've recorded deaths due to alcohol before minimum pricing, Scotland and England have went up and down with no mitigations.

Why did they choose England and just for one year. What if they chose to compare us with Northern Ireland. So in the last year Scotlands deaths have risen to a new record. In Northern Ireland they have dropped for a second year in a row, Northern Ireland has no minimum pricing. If I said I compared the two countries and concluded minimum pricing has caused deaths you'd say your a nitwit correctly.

A thread on it that is stating the obvious. They conducted 4 studies into its success. 3 showed no difference (well one showed problem drinkers were spending less on food but still drinking) and one was comparing us to England for one year

https://twitter.com/cjsnowdon/status/1673599530929881089

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Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

A government funded body campaigning for this for decades finds what is asked to find. Doctors groups were attacking the snp last week for stopping mask wearing. They will always go pro mitigation they don't care about finance's ect.

Your bright but be objective here. There headline findings was although deaths went up in Scotland to a record level, it went up slower than in England. They say therfore it saved lives so we should continue it.

They didn't say over the 30 years we've recorded deaths due to alcohol before minimum pricing, Scotland and England have went up and down with no mitigations.

Why did they choose England and just for one year. What if they chose to compare us with Northern Ireland. So in the last year Scotlands deaths have risen to a new record. In Northern Ireland they have dropped for a second year in a row, Northern Ireland has no minimum pricing. If I said I compared the two countries and concluded minimum pricing has caused deaths you'd say your a nitwit correctly.

A thread on it that is stating the obvious. They conducted 4 studies into its success. 3 showed no difference (well one showed problem drinkers were spending less on food but still drinking) and one was comparing us to England for one year

https://twitter.com/cjsnowdon/status...99530929881089

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A thread on public health by a guy who wrote for the telegraph, the spectator and conservative home and who is an outspoken opponent of government intervention in public health matters around tobacco and alcohol. [emoji848]

Attachment 27020

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Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

Doctors groups were attacking the snp last week for stopping mask wearing.

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You should be aware this little stunt was borne out of a Facebook group with very few members. They attacked the SG - aided and abetted by a willing and compliant BBC Scotland - in order to generate an SNPbad story. Heck, two of the doctors were from England, complaining about NHS Scotland? A made up story. It's beneath you to even give them airtime.

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Originally Posted by degenerated

A thread on public health by a guy who wrote for the telegraph, the spectator and conservative home and who is an outspoken opponent of government intervention in public health matters around tobacco and alcohol. [emoji848]

Attachment 27020

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So tell me what is wrong with any of what he has said. Its just daft using one year of Scotland v England to say they both rose but England's rise faster so the difference must be mup, don't look at northern Ireland. The rise and falls now won't be from minimum pricing if if does save lives it will be decades from now as alchahol deaths are due to a lifetime of drinking

What about biostatistician Dr Adam Jacobs, Senior Director, Biostatistical Sciences at Premier Research, said:

“The paper claims to have found a statistically significant decrease in deaths that are due to drinking alcohol – a decrease of 13.4%. I have two problems with that number. First, there may be some uncertainty in attributing which deaths were ‘wholly attributable’ to alcohol consumption, and the paper would be more convincing to me if they presented statistics on all-cause mortality.

“Second, figure 1 in the paper appears to show the trend for mortality increasing since the MUP was implemented. There may be reasons why despite this there is statistically a decrease in deaths due to alcohol, but I would find it more convincing if you could see the death rate actually decreasing in the raw data..

Or Professor Kevin McConway
my main concern is that there is a lot of causal interpretation here.
This is an observational study, and no matter how well other factors are controlled for, it can never prove conclusively that the changes observed in deaths were due to the minimum unit pricing policy. In my view there hasn’t been enough caution given around assuming this relationship is causal
Second, figure 1 in the paper appears to show the trend for mortality increasing since the MUP was implemented. There may be reasons why despite this there is statistically a decrease in deaths due to alcohol, but I would find it more convincing if you could see the death rate actually decreasing in the raw data
I also think there are some questions to ask around what would be expected to happen in terms of a time lag between the policy being brought in and deaths being averted – would we expect large numbers of deaths to have been prevented already given that many deaths due to alcohol are due to chronic conditions
However, all this just shows that there were decreases in deaths after the MUP policy was brought in – but that doesn’t necessarily imply that the decrease in deaths was caused by MUP

Or just yourself look at the fluctuations in the drink deaths between Scotland and England over the years
Attachment 27021

Here's Scotlands rise since mup
Attachment 27022

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Originally Posted by grunt

You should be aware this little stunt was borne out of a Facebook group with very few members. They attacked the SG - aided and abetted by a willing and compliant BBC Scotland - in order to generate an SNPbad story. Heck, two of the doctors were from England, complaining about NHS Scotland? A made up story. It's beneath you to even give them airtime.

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They aren't just a Facebook group They are legitimate doctors yes small and talking nonsense though. The BMA and BMJ also slammed scot gov when masks were first dropped.

The BMJ BMA thousands of doctors wrote to the government saying don't make the gap between first and second jabs 12 weeks when they first came out. The EU Pfizer and pretty much everyone on here slammed uk government for it. Turns out it saved 10k lives and 60k hospitalisations. The point is BMJ is full of opinions often saying the opposite

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.imperial.ac.uk/news/243032/delaying-second-doses-vaccine-reduced-covid-19/amp/

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Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

They aren't just a Facebook group They are legitimate doctors yes small and talking nonsense though. The BMA and BMJ also slammed scot gov when masks were first dropped.

The BMJ BMA thousands of doctors wrote to the government saying don't make the gap between first and second jabs 12 weeks when they first came out. The EU Pfizer and pretty much everyone on here slammed uk government for it. Turns out it saved 10k lives and 60k hospitalisations. The point is BMJ is full of opinions often saying the opposite

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.imp...-covid-19/amp/

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I think there were only 7 of them and two were based in England and another a former Labour candidate.


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On the other side of the coin I also think this is ridiculous to say without proof. Minimum pricing helping the rise in deaths as people turn to street drugs. If Minimum pricing works its probably be a few decades to effect deaths as the Prof above says. The midnight clause means they need something though. It might work I don't know. But I don't think it's a priority. It also won't be popular so if humza says we need a consistent and clear lead in the polls for a second referendum, it makes me think getting one isn't a priority

https://archive.ph/6JWyh

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Originally Posted by ErinGoBraghHFC

Likely make no difference, a bottle of buckfast didn’t change price when minimum pricing came in for example because it was already priced above the 50p minimum per unit. Only things this will affect will be things like White Lightning and Frosty Jacks cider probably, which I’d imagine are very very few non-problem drinker adults tipple of choice


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Yes thankfully none of them are my chosen tipples.

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Originally Posted by HarpOnHibee

They're looking at all options. Even the possibility of reducing the minimum unit price. STV picked the worst article title they could.

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It wouldn't be like the media to do that would it?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotla...-west-66264071

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Originally Posted by He's here!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotla...-west-66264071

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[emoji2369]


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Originally Posted by He's here!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotla...-west-66264071

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BBC reporting ferries back on airAttachment 27028

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Originally Posted by degenerated

BBC reporting ferries back on airAttachment 27028

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It's quite staggering isn't it?

I don't think the SNP are doing a particularly good job with education for example. Sturgeon even said to judge her on education. Instead ferries are the stick to hit the government with?

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Originally Posted by Jones28

It's quite staggering isn't it?

I don't think the SNP are doing a particularly good job with education for example. Sturgeon even said to judge her on education. Instead ferries are the stick to hit the government with?

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Sturgeon's failure to close the attainment gap in education gets plenty deserved flak.

I'm unclear why yes voters get so riled by criticism of the SG's shambolic role in the ferries fiasco. Their much-lauded ferries plan, launched in 2012, has been one long catalogue of costly failure.

There seems to be a mindset that 'it's only a couple of boats' from those who have no need to use our island ferries, but the network is a vital lifeline not only to the islands' populations but for tourism. We're just back from a few days on Raasay (fantastic place to visit) and while the ferry trip is a short one, its absence would see the island's community-led summer programme of activity grind to a total halt.

This is well over a year old, so things have unravelled even more spectacularly since then, but it provides a good summary of the issues at stake:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-61161932

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Originally Posted by He's here!

Sturgeon's failure to close the attainment gap in education gets plenty deserved flak.

I'm unclear why yes voters get so riled by criticism of the SG's shambolic role in the ferries fiasco. Their much-lauded ferries plan, launched in 2012, has been one long catalogue of costly failure.

There seems to be a mindset that 'it's only a couple of boats' from those who have no need to use our island ferries, but the network is a vital lifeline not only to the islands' populations but for tourism. We're just back from a few days on Raasay (fantastic place to visit) and while the ferry trip is a short one, its absence would see the island's community-led summer programme of activity grind to a total halt.

This is well over a year old, so things have unravelled even more spectacularly since then, but it provides a good summary of the issues at stake:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-61161932

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Don’t 95% of Cal Mac ferries run on time?


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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

Don’t 95% of Cal Mac ferries run on time?

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Irrelevant.

There seems to be a mindset from people of a particular political persuasion to keep this story in the limelight for as long as possible, to squeeze as much outrage out of this as possible. Likely in the hope that it will distract people's attentions away from far more significant fiasco's south of the border that are costing us a great deal more than this ever will.

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Originally Posted by He's here!

Sturgeon's failure to close the attainment gap in education gets plenty deserved flak.

I'm unclear why yes voters get so riled by criticism of the SG's shambolic role in the ferries fiasco. Their much-lauded ferries plan, launched in 2012, has been one long catalogue of costly failure.

There seems to be a mindset that 'it's only a couple of boats' from those who have no need to use our island ferries, but the network is a vital lifeline not only to the islands' populations but for tourism. We're just back from a few days on Raasay (fantastic place to visit) and while the ferry trip is a short one, its absence would see the island's community-led summer programme of activity grind to a total halt.

This is well over a year old, so things have unravelled even more spectacularly since then, but it provides a good summary of the issues at stake:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-61161932

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The fact that she painted a target onto her own back re education means that none of us who support(ed) Sturgeon or the SNP would really have a problem if this was the main attack on her as it is more than fair game.

There's always going to be a bit of sniping when it comes to politics and you accept that opponents will take an opportunity have a pop where possible. Occasionally mistakes will be made and occasionally public resource fiascos will arise. It just feels like the "ferries card" gets overplayed a bit, especially when you consider some of the eyewatering waste of public resource that is happening at Westminster. Whataboutery I know, but it's not an argument without merit because perspective can be important.

It's so long since Labour have had responsibility for anything that they should have no shortage of targets for attack without fear of reproach. The continued choice of "the ferries" as being the one in Scotland I think rankles because it gives a distinct feeling about who Scottish Labour feel their true opponents are, at a time when they're supposedly winning us back over in droves.

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Originally Posted by HarpOnHibee

There seems to be a mindset from people of a particular political persuasion to keep this story in the limelight for as long as possible, to squeeze as much outrage out of this as possible. Likely in the hope that it will distract people's attentions away from far more significant fiasco's south of the border that are costing us a great deal more than this ever will.

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Why would BBC Scotland focus on costly fiascos south of the border ahead of those on their doorstep? The reason the ferries shambles remains 'in the limelight' is because it's a story which continues to develop, with new levels of ineptitude regularly unveiled. Why should that not be reported?

The standard eye-rolling or laughing emoji response to these stories (or to those criticising the glacial-paced A9 duelling) don't exactly constitute a valid defence of the SG's incompetence.

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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

Don’t 95% of Cal Mac ferries run on time?


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Uh huh, that's the issue at stake.

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Originally Posted by He's here!

Why would BBC Scotland focus on costly fiascos south of the border ahead of those on their doorstep? The reason the ferries shambles remains 'in the limelight' is because it's a story which continues to develop, with new levels of ineptitude regularly unveiled. Why should that not be reported?

The standard eye-rolling or laughing emoji response to these stories (or to those criticising the glacial-paced A9 duelling) don't exactly constitute a valid defence of the SG's incompetence.

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If you really cared about people and fiscal prudence you'd be all over the Tory Party thread.

As it is though.

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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

Don’t 95% of Cal Mac ferries run on time?

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Originally Posted by grunt

Irrelevant.

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Originally Posted by He's here!

Uh huh, that's the issue at stake.

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Told you.

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Originally Posted by He's here!

The reason the ferries shambles remains 'in the limelight' is because it's a story which continues to develop, with new levels of ineptitude regularly unveiled.

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What new level of ineptitude does this latest story unveil?

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Originally Posted by grunt

Told you.

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You think the main issue is the day-to-day timetable?

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Originally Posted by Kato

If you really cared about people and fiscal prudence you'd be all over the Tory Party thread.

As it is though.

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Or I could opt to call out the incompetence of those who claim they could do a good job of governing an independent Scotland.

Being told what I should think or do is, along with the stock 'what about the Tories' riposte, on a par with the laughing emoji counter argument.

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Originally Posted by He's here!

Or I could opt to call out the incompetence of those who claim they could do a good job of governing an independent Scotland.

Being told what I should think or do is, along with the stock 'what about the Tories' riposte, on a par with the laughing emoji counter argument.

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The imbalance you show is palpable though. There are SNP sympathisers on here who criticise the Scottish Govt and the UK govt.

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Originally Posted by He's here!

You think the main issue is the day-to-day timetable?

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:faf:

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Originally Posted by He's here!

Or I could opt to call out the incompetence of those who claim they could do a good job of governing an independent Scotland.

Being told what I should think or do is, along with the stock 'what about the Tories' riposte, on a par with the laughing emoji counter argument.

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Ah the suggestion that the SNP are the only party that can govern in an independent Scotland again.

The same SNP that is only there to achieve independence, what will they do once they have achieved their only reason for being?

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Originally Posted by grunt

:faf:

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?

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Originally Posted by Kato

The imbalance you show is palpable though. There are SNP sympathisers on here who criticise the Scottish Govt and the UK govt.

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Not joining the anti-Tory pile-on thread invalidates an opinion on the anti-SNP thread?

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Originally Posted by He's here!

Why would BBC Scotland focus on costly fiascos south of the border ahead of those on their doorstep?

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So we have to stay in the union but ignore what goes on in London? Surely the Scottish media should concentrate on all aspects of Scottish political life? Surely as a unionist, that’s what you would want? Or is what goes on in London no concern of ours?


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