Do you really want to make me cry? 😉Quote:
Originally Posted by Mibbes Aye
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Do you really want to make me cry? 😉Quote:
Originally Posted by Mibbes Aye
We complain the tories take Scottish oil and want to leave and hand it to the eu insteadQuote:
Originally Posted by cabbageandribs1875
How would it be handing it to the EU? (Other than the stats.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Skol
Currently, Corporation Tax (and most energy-related taxes) are reserved, so the UK Treasury takes the tax revenue. In an IS, the Scottish Treasury would have it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Skol
Measuring state pension as a percentage of average earnings is not helpful, apparently.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FzH1I25W...pg&name=medium
If you looked at the OECD link I posted you'll see that it's a lot more complex than that. Mix of workplace schemes which are less common elsewhere, higher pension contributions abroad and range of benefits in UK, plus NHS. I'm not saying that the UK pension arrangements are good, but the stuff you are posting doesn't represent the full story.Quote:
Originally Posted by grunt
I never said it did. But the disparity on this one measure is enormous. That's all I'm saying.Quote:
Originally Posted by archie
You're making the mistake of comparing us against countries which are better at something. That's not how it works :greengrinQuote:
Originally Posted by grunt
If somebody made another poll on independence but instead had two questions:
1) Would you vote in favour of independence,
AND
2) Do you think it will ever happen
...,my answers would have to be YES and NO, in that order.
As others have said, the 'Yes' figure usually fluctuates somewhere around the 50% mark (currently a bit lower), but there's no trend now to suggest this is increasing, or that it will change anytime soon.
Combine that with the UK establishment's apparent determination to block a referendum, I think it's unlikely we'll see another one in my lifetime.
Yes and yes. I was distraught after the referendum and thought my chance of seeing Scotland as an independent nation had gone. I now believe its inevitable as there is no argument for the union. Every argument for staying in the union has been thrown out in the last 9 years. If it was a referendum for an independent Scotland joining into a union with the present rUK. I'm not sure you'd get many takersq
I’m yes and yes as well. There is nobody making the positive case for the union anymore. There is the occasional attempt but it always seems almost apologetic.Quote:
Originally Posted by weecounty hibby
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I agree. I feel that the only thing holding it together is a fear of leaving. Yet, if we were never part of the UK in the first place, then we'd be looking at it right now with a fear of joining. Sometimes it's difficult to see what something is turning into, when you're part of that something. I believe that's where Scotland is right now.Quote:
Originally Posted by weecounty hibby
Quote:
Originally Posted by weecounty hibby
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
I'm maybe just more negative than you guys, but I'm not really seeing a surge in enthusiasm in general for independence, hence my current feeling about it.
This is obviously just one guy's opinion... and I am a miserable old git :greengrin
I don’t think there is a surge either way. It’s pretty steady and doesn’t move much. 51-49 is progress from 2014 but that’s about it. Is that people changing their mind or just demographic gradually moving in Yes’s favour? No idea personally.Quote:
Originally Posted by Keith_M
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But we all know what happened the last time. A 20ish% surge in the independence vote is why we'll not get permission in the way it was granted last time round.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
I can see why they fear it but I don’t see what their long term plan is? There isn’t really any attempt to make things better or give more autonomy to Scotland? Gordon Browns plan was so watered down it was really just about the House of Lords by the time it got released and it looks like that has been shelved now as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack
I think the plan has been to go after Sturgeon and hope support crumbles thereafter. Indy support hasn’t moved an inch and they have put everything into discrediting her.
Maybe they are playing 3D chess and I just can’t see it.[emoji2369]
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https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...f43c8a0d67.jpg
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These tricky statisticians putting 3 individual single stats up together because 3 tweets with an individual stat each would be meaningless 😆Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
but but we're just too wee :agree:
https://scontent.fman1-1.fna.fbcdn.n...eA&oe=6497AEE1
But that measure is widely misconstrued, including on here. It the equivalent of posting a list of the minimum wage by country and the saying that represents average earnings.Quote:
Originally Posted by grunt
Are you saying our average earnings compare favourably with our neighbours?Quote:
Originally Posted by archie
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That's nice and using tidal is far, far better than dirty oil, that's for sure.Quote:
Originally Posted by cabbageandribs1875
But Scottish Government estimated Scotland has 25% of Europe's total. Which is also nice.
So, one of them is lying, or seriously poor at maths.
Certainly nice for a sensible and realistic transition from fossil fuels to renewable's as opposed to Labours 'jam tomorrow' approach.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mibbes Aye
I'm saying that the state pension stat is seriously misleading in terms of what pensioners actually receive.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
Lorna Slater mislead parliament by saying Scotland had 25% of Europe's potential capacity. The stat wasn't sourced but still usedQuote:
Originally Posted by Mibbes Aye
https://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/23132550.greens-lorna-slater-misled-parliament-energy-figure/
Which was my point. It’s really a meaningless article.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack
That pensions stat has been announced on a regular basis for as long as I can remember suggesting it's not tied to any particular party bashing. A good 20/30 years anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by archie
You would have thought your excuse for it being so low would have been officially challenged in that time with actual figures to show these hidden, uncosted benefits you speak of. Figures that could be fact checked. You'd also think that now and again at least the multiple agencies producing these figures would also include a UK government disclaimer/footnote detailing them too. I can't say I've ever seen any.
A decent article on helping compare pensions. I was surprised at how many Australian and US pensioners are in poverty 23%.
https://www.ii.co.uk/analysis-commen...urope-ii525935
How does the UK state pension compare?
To compare the UK state pension with other countries across Europe, we really need to include private and workplace pensions. The state pension provides a basic income, but workplace and private pensions, boosted by pension tax relief, can help us achieve a comfortable retirement and are a key part of the UK pension system.
However, looking at the table below you can see that the UK government spends far less on the state pension, as a proportion of GDP, than many other countries. Even if the £43 billion spent on pension tax relief is added in, government spending on pensions still lags behind most countries in Europe. Levels of pensioner poverty are also higher than other countries in Europe, suggesting many pensioners are struggling to supplement the flat-rate UK state pension
... partly offset by the tax revenue on pension income.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7
I'm not clear on how they have come up with this number, but the article is clearly bollocks, as the Australian State Pension for the poorest in society is currently $523/week. That's about 285 quid a week or 100 quid (>50%) a week more than the UK State pension listed in the table!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7
According to the London School of Economics, Scotland has more installed tidal capacity than the rest of the world combined.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jones28
It's not the article that is making the numbers, it's the OECD that people are also using above my post to quote uk figures.Quote:
Originally Posted by Curried
Here's the OECD data, they QUOTE high cost of living in Australia
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.oecd.org/australia/PAG2019-AUS.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwidg7D6w9b_AhXb1TgGHa9fCisQFnoEC AUQBg&usg=AOvVaw3sBdaOdgtl39JE9hrL8rOy
Read it on phone, thanks for explaining!Quote:
Originally Posted by HarpOnHibee
Cheers for the link.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7
I'm still not clear on how they calculate "Old-Age Poverty", but it appears from one of the graphs given that this metric is almost twice as high in Korea as it is in Australia or the US!
https://news.stv.tv/politics/winnie-...utm_source=app
A sad loss.
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:boo hoo::boo hoo: RIP Winnie
https://scontent.fman1-2.fna.fbcdn.n...Xg&oe=6499F90C
Certainly the poitician of her generation. What a life lived.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
That’s sad news. A thoroughly decent politician respected by people no matter where their own political allegiance lay.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
RIP
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotla...BCScotlandNews
Another decision made in London opposed by almost all in Scotland? I can’t think of any group who would be in favour of this?
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"We were not consulted on this" basically sums up how Westminster treats Holyrood in general. They demand that Holyrood consult Westminster over devolved matters, so they can then decide whether it's acceptable or not. But when it comes to reserved matters, they plow straight ahead with no word of warning, regardless of the economic, social or ethical impacts on Scotland.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
We need to do something. If we can make a better fist of housing refugees than they are in England (food, mingin hotels etc) then I think this could be a start.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
The lack of consultation is poor.
Am I the only one seeing an opportunity for Hibs here?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
Do something in support of asylum seekers, which fits well with our founding ethos.
Highlighting it in a way that shows the Tories up would be even better.
What’s needed is a couple of thousand empty houses. Mind you, the way interest rates are going, we might soon have that.[emoji51]Quote:
Originally Posted by Mibbes Aye
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Ooft. The Daily Mail and the Daily Express would have to switch to A2 front pages, to fit their headline in.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
Mortgages, illegal asylum seekers swamping our villages, property prices.....all they would need is a way of including Harry and Meghan.
https://twitter.com/celebs4indy/stat...dxJXScFNwz8V4A
New Yes favourable poll.
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Yousaf heckled by someone during his speech in Dundee. Looked like he did his best to handle it going to speak to the lady, but she seemed in a bit of a state.
Thought he handled it really well. Think she was protesting the recent medical scandal.Quote:
Originally Posted by Skol
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https://twitter.com/pjwoodside/statu...dxJXScFNwz8V4A
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Telegraph is behind a paywall is it not so unless you subscribe or but the paper you won’t see the story anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
You won’t see it if you buy the paper in Scotland I think is the point being made?Quote:
Originally Posted by Skol
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:agree:Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
The Telegraph, just like the Mail and Express are notorious for printing conflicting headlines depending on what side of the border they are presenting their paper to. It's almost like a running joke to them, that many don't seem to notice.
Which is the same thing. And I suspect not many are bought in Scotland anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
I have never bought any of the three, so wouldn’t notice.Quote:
Originally Posted by HarpOnHibee
Neither have I. But it's easy enough to find examples of this online with a search. Here's an example:Quote:
Originally Posted by Skol
April 22, 2014
https://149739034.v2.pressablecdn.co...04/express.png
I doubt I have even googled them either.Quote:
Originally Posted by HarpOnHibee
Point still stands though surely?Quote:
Originally Posted by Skol
The Sun does it too. For example in 2015 supporting the SNP in Scotland and the Tories in England. https://www.theguardian.com/politics...tories-slammedQuote:
Originally Posted by HarpOnHibee
The SNP don't stand in England though. So it wouldn't make sense for them to support the SNP in England as well. The Daily Express supports a 'UK economic doomsday' narrative in England and a 'prosperous union' narrative in Scotland. Despite being the same union.Quote:
Originally Posted by archie
'Doesn't 'make sense how? They could support the Tories in Scotland. I suspect one reason will be to maximise the anti Labour vote across the UK.Quote:
Originally Posted by HarpOnHibee
Not really as it’s not the big deal you would like it to be. Only likely to be seen by people who hold those views anyway. Or those looking for a grievanceQuote:
Originally Posted by Just Alf
That was certainly the case pre-Keir, although they seem to have softened their stance somewhat against the UK's replacement neo-liberal.Quote:
Originally Posted by archie
I still think if the owner (or editor) of a newspaper can put out two diametrically opposing headlines about the same story it tells you all you need to know about the paper in question , they're clearly putting their own spin rather than reporting facts.Quote:
Originally Posted by Skol
Mind you, unlike the BBC.... , like The National, we're not expecting them to be "impartial" so fair do's I guess.
Ps I do realise I'm now arguing with myself! :rofl:
Sir Starmer will be ragin
Labour peer backs Humza Yousaf's plan for a written constitution | The National
A SENIOR Labour politician has backed the First Minister’s plan for the creation of a written constitution for Scotland in anticipation for independence.
The Labour peer and human rights lawyer Baroness Helena Kennedy said “people should be going to work on creating a written constitution for an independent Scotland, definitely.
“I would do it now if I were in that camp”.
It comes after Humza Yousaf unveiled official plans for an independent Scotland to have a “permanent” constitution based on the values of the people.
He said that the constitution “would set out how democracy, rights and equality would be at the heart of everything we do as an independent nation”.
I don't think he will be that bothered. If Scotland were to be an independent nation most people would agree it would need a written constitution and these things take an inordinate amount of time. There was a decent start to a discussion earlier today about it on the Labour thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by cabbageandribs1875
What's not being said here is that Humza's plan isn't a plan yet, it is just an idea. It would be difficult to formulate a constitution without knowing what any process was for leaving the union.
What's also not being said but is hilarious is that this tentative idea, insofar as there's much detail to comment on, is pretty much a direct but weaker lift of Gordon Brown's proposal for the UK from last year :faf:
Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery eh? In fact if Scotland is to be independent, would we not be better tucking Humza safely back into his play pen and giving the job to a grown-up? El Presidente Gordon Brown sounds good to me. And let's face it, he's got a greater intellect than the current Scottish Cabinet combined :greengrin
There's many that think if independence was to be realised There's a very good chance Labour would be in government at some point, much sooner rather than later, so if GB is still around, and given the leadership by the party, its not inconceivable he'd b up for the top gigQuote:
Originally Posted by Mibbes Aye
Vote Yes, Get Gordon?Quote:
Originally Posted by Just Alf
https://media.tenor.com/vBfa7OZ1tVEA...-know-that.gif
:greengrin
<iframe src="https://gifer.com/embed/Hpot" width=480 height=195.840 frameBorder="0" allowFullScreen></iframe><p><a href="https://gifer.com">via GIFER</a></p>
<iframe src="https://gifer.com/embed/Hpot" width=480 height=195.840 frameBorder="0" allowFullScreen></iframe><p><a href="https://gifer.com">via GIFER</a></p>
He won't though. Because it's far easier to go around making speeches and promising things on behalf of the UK Government (which never need to be held up), while being paid the big poonds. He never needs to worry about being responsible for anything again, while maintaining his generally lucrative life style.Quote:
Originally Posted by Just Alf
Scotland will be so diddy on independence that our army will just be Gordon Brown with a bucket of staplers.
He's such a bad un... https://gordonandsarahbrown.com/office-of-gordon-sarah-brown/Quote:
Originally Posted by HarpOnHibee
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glory Lurker
https://i.guim.co.uk/img/static/sys-...5&dpr=1&s=none
Aye, that's me :faf:Quote:
Originally Posted by Mibbes Aye
What? You got one of those big staplers? Bring it!
Say hello to my leetul stapler.......Quote:
Originally Posted by Glory Lurker
https://dangerousminds.net/content/u...65_314_int.jpghttps://i.guim.co.uk/img/static/sys-...ormat&fit=max&https://i.guim.co.uk/img/static/sys-...ormat&fit=max&https://i.guim.co.uk/img/static/sys-...ormat&fit=max&https://i.guim.co.uk/img/static/sys-...ormat&fit=max&
Ha! And I thought hiding a Nokia in my pocket was poor form. Never trust Labour ;-)Quote:
Originally Posted by Mibbes Aye
Wonder how his vow is getting on. Still trying to diddle us out of oil revenue by redrawing boundaries. Absolute sell outQuote:
Originally Posted by Mibbes Aye
The absence of comment on here about yesterdays talking ( to themselves) shop the SNP held yesterday tells a story. Yousaf’s big idea has been revealed to consist of telling the voters that a vote for the SNP is a vote for independence. He did sort of reveal that having a majority of MPs in Scotland now rather than having the majority of the vote would be mandate required to ask for a referundum but even that needed clarification. The summer will be spent telling the membership to accept that and vote for it at conference in October. Anybody still think we will see independence in the next ten years if at all? Asking people to lend their vote for another decade is going to see far fewer takers now.
Interested* to hear what story you think it tells. For me, there's no longer any point in posting positive SNP stories any more because of all the usual suspects who jump on the thread and like nothing better than to piss on our chips with their dull "Scotland-is-crap-we'll-never-be-able-to cope-on-our-own-and-SNP-are-all-crooks" mantra. So I'll just eat my nice Indy chips quietly on my own and let all the boring negative unionists blow each other off.Quote:
Originally Posted by marinello59
It's like trying to have a discussion praising Hibs on Kickback - not worth the effort.
*Actually, not interested at all.
I don't even know why it's an argument or a debate about how having the majority of mps being a mandateQuote:
Originally Posted by marinello59
Is only became a debate as the unionist parties wanted to muddy the waters
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There were over five hundred empty seats at the Caird Hall yesterday. Given the amount of members the SNP have and the lack of comment from the faithful here it looks like yesterdays workshop has been met with a collective “meh”Quote:
Originally Posted by grunt
I shouldn’t have to add this but I’ve supported Independence my whole adult life and I’m one of the older posters. criticising the SNP is not the same as talking Scotland down.
Well who else are they going to lend their vote to? One of the oppressors?Quote:
Originally Posted by marinello59
Didn't hear any of the workshopping/speeches at the Caird Hall but was quite impressed at Yousaf interrupting his own speech to go and speak to a distressed woman heckling. Can't imagine any other current party leader doing that. Also heard him speak well of John Smith early on in his leadership when he had a microphone shoved in his face. For me so far it's Yousaf 2, Scooter 1.
That’s the problem for the independence movement. sNP are the only show in town. Now that some of their shortcomings are being more widely accepted from within their own support, they have a problemQuote:
Originally Posted by HarpOnHibee
Yesterdays announcement for me is an attempt to stem the flow of votes away from the snp. Whether that’s to stop people turning elsewhere or just from not voting at all. Yousaf needs that 47% Indy support to vote snp. Hence why he is dangling the carrot in much the same way sturgeon used to
Every political party has their shortcomings. I agree that there is a risk of a lower turn out, but I certainly don't see SNP voters switching over to another party that is responsible for effectively making a future referendum impossible. What I think will happen is that Labour will gain seats from the SNP in Scotland, not from SNP voters, but from Conservative voters that they've been dangling the carrot in front of for the last 3 years. They'll then try and claim that support for independence in Scotland is dropping due to the drop in SNP seats, even if the SNP vote share hasn't gone down at all. They think we're idiots up here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Skol
It's idiotic to think there's isnt a huge probability some snp voters will go to Labour, especially as it seems it will help bring Labour to power.Quote:
Originally Posted by HarpOnHibee
I agree that it’s. Pre likely that independence voters will just not vote. Some though will return to vote labour as it’s a realistic route to getting rid of the tories.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7
The entitlement here is staggering. Labour got a sore face in Scotland because they acted in an entitled way. Do people never learn?Quote:
Originally Posted by HarpOnHibee
I’m not so sure it will be in the numbers getting predicted now. We still have to go through a campaign where Labour will tell the 50% of Scottish voters they can never have the independence that they want under Labour. Also Sarwar will have to campaign. Just now he is protected in that he rarely gives interviews, when he does he gets soft ball questions and he never shows up in the parliament except for FMQ’s when he has to. He’s not a great performer. Debates might be difficult for him.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7
If you support Indy and you have Labour spending 6 weeks telling you no chance then it might be difficult to then go vote for them.
Biggest problem for the SNP will be if their voters stay at home. That is the biggest threat.
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I don’t see any entitlement in that post?Quote:
Originally Posted by archie
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Yet, it's not a realistic route for getting rid of the tories whatsoever. Which is one of the major reasons people support independence in the first place. Nobody that seriously wants independence in Scotland is going to vote for Keir Starmer's gang.Quote:
Originally Posted by Skol
There wasn't. I was simply declaring what I believe will happen.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
The assumption that no one who voted SNP will vote Labour is, at best complacent and very entitled. That attitude did for Labour in Scotland.Quote:
Originally Posted by HarpOnHibee
Of course some SNP supporters will vote for Labour just to get the Tories out. Those Labour voters who have lent their vote to the SNP in order to get Indy, and there are plenty, will be much more likely to just vote Labour this time around. When the reward is getting rid of the Tories now rather than the promise of Indy some time in the future then it’s an easier one to make. I expect to see the SNP put much more in to their attacks on Labour than attacking the Tories as they seem them as a bigger threat to them achieving their ultimate aim. The problem with that is that very few outside of already committed SNP supporters are going to buy any claims that Labour are almost identical to the Tories. It’s going to be interesting though. :greengrinQuote:
Originally Posted by Skol
Ok then. Some people who voted Labour last time will vote for the SNP. So I guess it will balance itself out then.Quote:
Originally Posted by archie
Why? People are perfectly capable of doing their own research and arriving to their own well informed conclusions. So it will be obvious to many that Labour are almost identical to the tories.Quote:
Originally Posted by marinello59
On reflection, you have convinced me. Just keep on what you are doing. It will all be fine.Quote:
Originally Posted by HarpOnHibee
Keir Starmer could be caught photocopying the Conservative Manifesto and sticking the world "Labour" on the title of the document and you'd still be on here pretending that they're offering something different. Who do you think you're fooling?Quote:
Originally Posted by archie
I was quite impressed by the way he handled it too.Quote:
Originally Posted by lapsedhibee
Does anyone know what it was she was shouting?
What do you base this on?Quote:
Originally Posted by HarpOnHibee
Apparently she was one of the patients of the NHS Tayside scandal involving Sam Eljamel.Quote:
Originally Posted by Smartie
Hmm, I don't know. Perhaps it has something to do with Keir Starmer's pro-brexit stance? Or maybe it's his stance against trade unions? Or maybe it's the purging of successfully elected left leaning MPs and Counciliors in the Labour Party? Or perhaps it's his commitment to keeping the tory's anti-protest legislation in place? Or maybe it's his interests and shares in private healthcare? Or his desire to maintain tuition fees in England? Or perhaps it's his backtracking on taxing the wealthiest more? Or his silence over the blocking of devolved matters in Scotland by Westminster? Or allowing people with links to the Orange Order to stand as Councillors in his party? Or turning a blind eye to racism in his party, as long as they lean right enough? Or failing to criticise the tories over their illegal policies over immigration and proposing very similar policies?Quote:
Originally Posted by archie
Yep. He's a real vote winner in Scotland. Independence supporters are just itching to vote for the newly formed 'Keir Starmer Party'. :rolleyes:
I think you're on to something here. If you look at Keir Starmer's register of interests there are no shareholdings at all https://publications.parliament.uk/p...armer_keir.htmQuote:
Originally Posted by HarpOnHibee
So either a) you have discovered secret shareholdings and you are in a position to blow this wide open or b) you're making things up. If it's b) then it invalidates everything you have said in your post.