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Huge cuts being made in Scottish budget.
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Huge cuts being made in Scottish budget.
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Why didn't we raise tax to cover this. We knew last year inflation would be through the roof this year. Austerity easier I supposeQuote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
Do you think the SNP would be the political force they are today without Salmond? Not a chance.Quote:
Originally Posted by grunt
We only have control over income tax on earned income. Do you think that that should be the only tax used to fix this? How much would it have to go up to cover the shortfall?Quote:
Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7
Without full control of our finances, we are at the mercy of the Tories.
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Yes it should come through income tax. Denmarks highest tax band is 10% higher than ours, that's progressive and no the high earners don't leave. This blaming England for literally everything is old hat.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
Yes they are a horrible bunch of bs and brexit will equally effect us. But most nations in Europe are facing almost % inflation, you need to fund by either cuts or taxes so pick.
The UK Government does not = England.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7
Most countries raise their tax from various sources according to their need. That seems normal. We only have one option open to us. That’s not normal.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7
I agree we should increase the top rate of tax but I doubt it will be enough to fill the gap in the finances.
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There's a difference between not filling the gap and filling zero of the gap as you chose austerity. How much spending on services could have been saved by taxing those who could afford itQuote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
Government of equal nations? But yes should have said WestminsterQuote:
Originally Posted by Rumble de Thump
That's not what you said.Quote:
Originally Posted by He's here!
Salmond is a colossus of Scottish nationalism. I can't stand the guy but he was an extraordinary political operator in his heyday. He would have been an outside contender for PM had he represented a UK-wide party. Sturgeon ploughs a narrow furrow in comparison and has been largely unable to progress the SNP cause against a series of Prime Ministers Salmond would have demolished.Quote:
Originally Posted by grunt
In your opinion. Which I happen to completely disagree with.Quote:
Originally Posted by He's here!
I don't think I'd disagree at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by He's here!
There's no end of things to dislike about Salmond but he was a very shrewd operator in his day. Sturgeon has her strengths but there's a bit of me thinks that he has a bit more of the opportunist about him that would have capitalised on the Tories having been as dreadful as they have in recent years.
The specifics and details of which I wouldn't like to comment on - just an intangible, bigger picture thing that I have a hunch about.
Agree with much of that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Smartie
You point this out but then appear to disregard it. For me it's the difference between a Johnson-like bully forcing independence by strength of will and opportunism, or Sturgeon's hearts & minds approach of wanting to take people along with her.Quote:
Originally Posted by Smartie
I know which I prefer. We will need to see if she can do it.
I get that Sturgeon doesn't want to show weakness while being hauled over the coals by opposition MSPs, but I'd have a thought a simple apology over this shambles shouldn't be beyond her:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-s...ost_type=share
Perhaps she shouldn't have listened to the unionist parties.Quote:
Originally Posted by He's here!
https://twitter.com/msm_monitor/stat...VjChnN0mA&s=19
Where's your sense of perspective?Quote:
Originally Posted by He's here!
Not sure what you mean?Quote:
Originally Posted by grunt
How can Sturgeon 'utterly refute' the jobs for the boys accusation but then confirm the auditor general is investigating claims of preferential treatment for Ferguson?
What if he finds the claims stack up?
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...rries-contract
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotla...-west-63516525
It always bewilders me why a significant number of people of all political persuasions run for elected office when they must know they're unfit to do so.
Hopefully a long sentence awaits.Quote:
Originally Posted by He's here!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
:agree:
I'm sure we all share that sentiment, regardless of the politicals of the perpetrator.
There seems to have been a ridiculously high number of similar cases in Westminster in recent years and I honestly don't care which party they represent, they're just beasts.
https://twitter.com/shiny02/status/1...zaIbxJgCg&s=19Quote:
Originally Posted by grunt
This clip is actually a decent example because snp supporters will think it's spot on. But we've seen the same comedian slammed as a troll and best ignored when making fun of the snpQuote:
Originally Posted by degenerated
https://mobile.twitter.com/shiny02/status/1583471149580570624
https://mobile.twitter.com/shiny02/status/1579522050070548480
Or greens
https://mobile.twitter.com/shiny02/status/1582287869497835521
:greengrinQuote:
Originally Posted by degenerated
Have the SNP supporters apologised yet. 😂Quote:
Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7
NHS Scotland: Hospitals record worst ever A&E waiting times - BBC News
I thought Yousaf said a few weeks ago he was confident the next set of figures would show a marked decline in waiting times?
To be fair to him, he delivers the best A&E service in the UK.Quote:
Originally Posted by He's here!
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That's like taking the reigns at celtic and finishing 5th, then saying well rangers finished 10th. English and Welsh figures are appalling as I'd expect from they chancers. Scotlands hospital figures are fairing worse than most of Western Europe since covid, striking decline in ambulance waiting times.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
None of the parties who run health care systems across Europe stand for election here in Scotland. The parties who run the failing systems in England and Wales are the choice if you want change in Scotland.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7
I agree that there are far better healthcare systems out there, but Scotland can only work within the UK system of funding. We are restricted by whatever England spends. If England decides to privatise, we’ll be forced to follow.
So comparisons with the rest of the UK are the most relevant.
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It's the usual going round in circles. Snp supporters say snp can have no criticism because attached to England. Non snp supporters say Scotland has the ability to raise income tax to pay for services but doesn't. Get out of jail free cardQuote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
Scotland does raise more in income tax but there is a limit to that before returns diminish.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7
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Disagree. Many nations have much higher income tax than us. Denmarks top rate is 10% higher, their services are generally better hardly surprising. Snp are a neoliberal centrist party and we get the health service that comes with thatQuote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
Bit like saying "why can't you build a house, we gave you a screwdriver?"Quote:
Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7
Not really though. More like you have to budget the building of your house from this amount, which is a higher % than we use ourselves. If you want more you have the ability to raise it. If it goes wrong blame us.Quote:
Originally Posted by grunt
Yes really. Income Tax is just one tool in the fiscal toolbox. We need access to all the levers of government.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7
Aye agree we need access to more. But income tax is a huge tool that could make massive difference, but they refuse to useQuote:
Originally Posted by grunt
They don’t refuse to use? Our top rate is higher than England and when Truss said she was cutting tax last month, the SG made clear they would not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7
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And got pilloried for saying so by D Ross etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
Once again talking about England. We're a smidgen away from their's and about the lowest top tax rate in Western Europe. We're 10% lower than Denmark and right wing Thatcherite Macron.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
You can't compare a single tax and make any sensible conclusion from that comparison!Quote:
Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7
You can really. Uk gets 34% of its gdp through income tax, the eu14 average is 39%, Denmark 46%. Uk is a low tax country unfortunately. Scotland isn't as easy to calculate but we're close to EnglandQuote:
Originally Posted by grunt
Scandinavian average is 41%. I thought we wanted to be like them, so tax the rich then
Denmark doesn't allow people to work in Copenhagen but live and pay tax in Malmo.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7
You are missing my point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7
Come on that's will account for a miniscule differenceQuote:
Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens
Which is. As my point was we could raise tax and income massively.Quote:
Originally Posted by grunt
Yes we need independence to get full control, but championing the snp like a football makes Scotland worse
Incomes are a lot higher in Denmark as well. The have full control of their employment law. Minimum wage is £13 an hour.Quote:
Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens
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If this is aimed at me then you are completely wrong. This is not what I'm doing. I'm just against simplistic arguments where you take a single element of fiscal policy and compare it against the same element in a completely different country with a host of different factors in play. Yes you can compare them, but any conclusion on such a basic comparison is meaningless. IMO.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7
It's not very simplistic. We've got nearly the lowest tax rates in Western Europe. If we raised them we'd raise more money, that's so simplistic its not worth saying. We can use that money as we wishQuote:
Originally Posted by grunt
:brickwallQuote:
Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7
Not here in Germany it doesn't. We've got 3 City States, Berlin, Bremen and Hamburg where many people go to work but live and pay their taxes in the state's that surround them. These state's are riddled with social problems.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7
Aye that's the attitude, just stick to how can we improve q y or z when we can't raise our own money lineQuote:
Originally Posted by grunt
The number of people that work in Scotland but pay taxes will be tiny, if not at least of set by the people who do the opposite with England and particularly LondonQuote:
Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg
That’s just one tax though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7
Denmarks income tax has a local element to it instead of the council tax we pay. If we go up to their level and still have to pay council tax on top then I’m struggling to see how it’s the same?
Only being able to control one tax is a shocking way to run a society. We don’t even have full control of income tax. We can’t raise income tax on dividends or property income. Only earned income.
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Why do you constantly misrepresent me? Did I ever say these words? No.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7
What you guys have to realise is yous are arguing that raising income tax won't raise funds, which is clearly pretty mental. If this is so , then why have a 1% higher rate than England if it doesn't help raise funds. Why not lower it last month?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
No, I think they will raise income tax next time but not by much. What I’m arguing is that it can’t raise enough and can’t be the whole solution. Also, there is a point where it actually raises less.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7
Ireland tax companies lightly and yet raise more corporation tax than we can dream of. They are running a govt surplus just now.
You are saying raise income tax to fix the NHS and pay more wages to striking workers. I can’t see how raising that one tax could do all that.
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No your saying I'm saying that. I've repeatedly said it's only one solution, we don't have the other options at our disposal. It won't solve everything but it's a big part of the solution. We have one of the lowest income tax highest rates in w Europe, that's shocking.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
As for Ireland I guess you would have been happy with Truss trying to lower corporation tax. I disagree with having a race to the bottom on corporation tax ,allowing billionaires to become richer by paying pitiful tax
Yes, but I’ve pointed out that a large part of Denmark’s income tax is actually a local income tax. For us to match it we would have to do away with council tax. That might not be a bad idea but comparing our income tax rate with denmarks is difficult when theirs includes local income tax as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7
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How many times have you been told, in Scotland income tax rates can only be set at the beginning of the financial year.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7
What's that got to do with anything. Why weren't they. It was clear last winter we'd have unbelievable inflation this year. Instead we didn't raise, nurses are striking and were bringing in eye watering austerityQuote:
Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns
Our council tax doesn't nearly make up the difference. Uk is a low tax nation and it shows in our gdpQuote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
Can you imagine what the outcry would have been like in April, before rampant inflation had happened?!Quote:
Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7
By April only a complete clown wouldn't think we were on the path we were. Inflation had went almost vertical to 9% from 6% in February. All the estimates had it hitting over 10% in June July and staying, which it did.Quote:
Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns
The last time someone said yeah we could only put up tax in April, so nurses rises to match inflation was a shock. I put up articles from the ft and from the economist from the end of last year, saying we were going to get massive inflation in 22 and that was post Ukraine
You seem to have a crystal ball regarding our finances. If only the Bank of England had the same crystal ball.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7
Who are the people that predicted 10% inflation nearly two years ago?
What crystal ball was needed inflation was already 9% in April when we could raise it, the disaster had happened already.Quote:
Originally Posted by ronaldo7
But still
June 2021
https://www.google.com/amp/s/au.finance.yahoo.com/amphtml/news/time-bomb-global-economy-013150691.html
May 21
https://archive.ph/eRfts
Why does snp policy propose to leave a lever behind ?Quote:
Originally Posted by grunt
Which lever?Quote:
Originally Posted by Skol
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It does now, but if you put the Scottish income tax up 10% higher than rUK then you are at least making higher rate taxpayers consider cross border working. Especially now so many of us can wfh all or part of the time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7
Also - does Denmark have anything like National Insurance? It muddies the waters in any comparison.
It's not just Denmark, IMF believe uk is too much of a low tax nation and its hindering growth. Every eu14 nation gets more of its gdb from tax.Quote:
Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens
It obviously doesn't have to be a 10% rise, but the people moving away to pay less tax is a tory defence. Norway is low tax due to its massive wealth fund, but people aren't moving from the rest of Scandinavia which has much higher tax.
The tories are planning on raising £30 billion in the next budget from raising the highest tax rate apparently. Absolute straw clutching for people to say Scotland couldn’t and shouldn't raise funds from taxing the rich
You're missing the point I was making. Norway/Denmark/whoever can control that people who earn money there pay tax there, we can't.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7
And if you want to tax the rich, you should be taxing unearned income (ie. from investment, shares etc) - we can't - and wealth - again we can't.
The SG is already taxing the better off a bit more by slightly higher rates and diverging tax bands. I agree they could and should go further but I think gradually is the right way to do it rather than a big step.
I also think it's way, way, way beyond the time when we should have replaced council tax with a local income tax and a properly locally set local income tax at that.
For your first point I'd say more people from Scotland make money from down south than the reverse. You say but yes in the future it could be different, I agree but not that relevant to now.Quote:
Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens
I've already said income tax I just one tool and a pretty major one. I wish we had more but we don't so use what you can. No one is moving down south due to more tax, everyone on here was arguing that point a month ago.
The tories are planning to raise £30 billion from income tax raises from the highest band.
Scot gov said we brought in just under £500 more last year than we would have if we had England's tax bands. Pretending we can't raise a huge amount of money by raising income tax is a cop out.
Thanks for that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7
I accept that you're saying income tax is only one of the levers to raise cash to then be used by the government to help its citizens. We had a committee sitting in holyrood the other day make recommendations about borrowing powers for the Scottish Government, where 4 unionist MSPs, two Labour, and two Tory decided that we didn't need them. The same MSPs will be in parliament asking the SG to raise benefits and wages for people in Scotland. Neither wonder we see them as two cheeks.
A HOLYROOD committee report has urged the UK Government to hand “significant” borrowing powers to Holyrood to help tackle the cost-of-living crisis – but Tory and Labour MSPs failed to back the recommendation.
A pre-budget report published by Holyrood’s social justice and social security committee highlighted how it has heard evidence rising costs are creating a “social emergency”, including seeing “increasingly seeing hungry children”.
The committee has called on the Scottish Government to take action such as increasing benefits in line with inflation, saying social security has a “vital role” in supporting those with low incomes.
However the report also cautions that reprioritising spending will “only go so far and will not provide a climate where Scotland can thrive”.
It highlighted evidence given by Dr Alison Hosie, research officer with the Scottish Human Rights Commission, on the issue of tackling the current economic situation and rising inflation.
In a previous committee session she noted the rest of the world "have all been using borrowing powers", adding: "The lack of them is, therefore, a significant limitation, and requesting that borrowing powers be significantly improved is a legitimate ask of the Government in the reassessment of the fiscal framework.”
The report stated: “In light of the evidence received which outlines the difficulties the Scottish Government faces in responding to crises without such powers, we request the UK Government devolves significant borrowing powers.”
SNP MSP Emma Roddick, who sits on the committee, said: "This new report shows clearly that the devolution settlement is not fit for purpose.
"As the cost of living crisis deepens, the Scottish Government is already using the powers it has - but, as is clear in today's report, the Scottish Parliament needs borrowing powers from Westminster to go further.
"The poverty-accelerating welfare policies of the Tories must be reversed and the Scottish Tories need to decide if they will stand up for the people of Scotland or their bosses at Westminster.
"It's only the full powers of independence that protect Scotland from cruel Westminster policies for good - and ensure that decisions about Scotland are taken in Scotland."
But the report also noted the four committee members from opposition parties “dissented” from this recommendation – Conservative MSPs Jeremy Balfour and Miles Briggs, along with Labour’s Pam Duncan-Glancy and Foysol Choudhury.
In April, the Scottish Government announced it would be uprating devolved benefits by 6%, but since, inflation has risen to 10.1% and the committee has urged ministers to further increase the safety net or provide “detailed justification as to why not”.
The report stated: “We recognise the importance of maintaining the real-terms value of benefits. Therefore, we expect the Scottish Government to uprate all Scottish benefits by the September Consumer Prices Index of 10.1% and if this does not happen, we require detailed justification as to why not.”
SNP MSP Natalie Don, who is deputy convenor of the committee, said: “The current cost crisis risks causing severe damage to people and organisations throughout Scotland.
“Our committee believes that by following through on its initial good work to develop a human rights budget process, the Scottish Government can ensure that the voices of people and organisations who are on the front line of the cost crisis will be heard.”
A Scottish Government spokesperson said: “The Scottish Government has a legal duty to publish a report each year that sets out the impact of inflation on social security benefits, and our plans for the next financial year. We will do this in due course.
“In April we doubled the Scottish Child Payment to £20 per week per eligible child and this will further increase to £25 per week from 14 November – a rise of 150% in less than eight months providing important additional support for low-income families, which is only available in Scotland.
“In March we also uprated eight other Scottish benefits by 6%, which was significantly higher than the 3.1% CPI by which most UK Government benefits were increased.”
Huge. Hopefully can get sorted as snp won't want to be locking horns with the nurses
https://mobile.twitter.com/STVNews/s...59108246728708
Nurses across Scotland overwhelmingly vote to strike in historic first
The Royal College of Nursing said the profession has been pushed to the edge at the cost of patient safety
Well done to the Nurses, I hope everybody gets behind them 100%.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7
It's a nationwide strike across pretty much the whole of the UK. Why are you seeking to imply that it's a problem just for the SNP?Quote:
Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7
Because I'm not talking about English nurses or their offer in their separate NHS. Do you think if scot gov gave them what they were asking for they would still be striking, come onQuote:
Originally Posted by grunt
:agree:Quote:
Originally Posted by marinello59
I'm sure everyone that was out clapping will be in full support.
Nurses asking for a 17% wage rise effectively?
Id doubt it, where have you read that. They were balloted and rejected 5%Quote:
Originally Posted by Since90+2
I didn’t realise which thread this was on when I commented, it probably deserves one of its own. Hopefully people can concentrate on the rights or wrongs of the nurses case rather than it becoming a defence of perceived slights against the SNP as discussions around other Union disputes on here did.Quote:
Originally Posted by grunt
For me it will always be a case of Which Side are you on? Who the boss is doesn’t concern me much. :greengrin
SG should offer 6% just now plus promise to match any offer made down south and back date it accordingly. That way Scottish nurses can stay at work on better pay while still benefitting from industrial action down south. SG benefits from having nurses at work and knows that any offer down south will trigger the appropriate Barnett consequentials.
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Thanks for criticising my post. I was simply pointing out that a post about "how are the SNP going to deal with the nurses strike?" kind of implies it's only a Scottish issue. While I understand that we have a separate NHS here, it is clear that this issue is wider than just Scotland. But carry on, focus on the mess that the Scottish Govt have got into over NHS pay and ignore that it's happening all over the country.Quote:
Originally Posted by marinello59
As for concentrating on the nurses case, strangely, I'm able to concentrate on multiple issues at the same time. Go me.
Do you reckon snp could do anything you would criticise?Quote:
Originally Posted by grunt
I was sort of agreeing with you in that a thread with this title isn’t the place for this topic. No offence was meant. No idea why you are telling me to carry on focussing on the mess the Scottish Government has made. I’ll try not to start doing that though :greengrinQuote:
Originally Posted by grunt
Great idea.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
Accept a huge pay cut with the promise of maybes, the Tories are likely to never offer a fair deal. Scottish nurses overwhelmingly rejected scot govs real time pay cut. They have to give them a fair offer or they strike.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
Lots of snp supporters online tonight acting like Tories with the I would love an inflation matching rise too, well unionise and if needed withdraw your work.
It’s not really. 6% is effectively a cut. Abdicating responsibility and leaving the fate of the nurses in the hands of the Tories at Westminster isn’t the answer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack
Is it not 5% above inflation, but inflation isn't fixed, so, at the moment that's 15%Quote:
Originally Posted by Since90+2
Sorry. Seem to be a bit raw just now.Quote:
Originally Posted by marinello59
5% above inflation is what their claim asks for but not sure what measure they are using. It will still end up that nurses are worse paid now than when the Tories came in even if they are successful. It is not a greedy claim as they, like most public servants, have had their salaries and pensions slashed since the Tories arrived.Quote:
Originally Posted by Since90+2
Scotland has done slightly better in terms of Public Service remuneration but the vast majority of public servants earn considerably less in real terms than they did in 2010. Scottish Civil Servants will find out tomorrow if we have voted for strike action with everything suggesting it will be comfortably over the thresholds of teh anti union voting legislation. Other Unions and workers will follow as we are nearing the point where there is little left to lose and we have suffered one too many pokes to the chest and cannot hold back any longer. The SNP have done a decent job of appearing to be a reasonable employer but that is only due to teh appalling way the Westminster Government have treated its employees.
No problem. Think we are all a bit raw, our football club doesn’t help. :greengrinQuote:
Originally Posted by grunt
We plan to let the BoE make decisions on interest rates for an unspecified period of time whilst absolving them of any need to consider Scotland. You knew that thoughQuote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
The 5% was when the rpi was 7.5 so a 12.5% increase, this was due to years of under inflation rises. The rpi is now 12% but they haven't said they want 5% above, they have just rejected the government offersQuote:
Originally Posted by wookie70
So the current status quo.Quote:
Originally Posted by Skol
Nope although nationalists believe that to be the case.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg
5% plus the current inflation rate is what they wantQuote:
Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7
The RCN, which represents about two-thirds of nurses in the NHS, has asked for 5% above the RPI rate of inflation, which stands at over 12%.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7
From the article on BBC.
That's Good, I doubt they will get it but the offer of 5% is a p take. They have had bellow inflation rises for 13 years. Its a much much lower paid job than it was a decade ago and with high inflation its at breaking point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Since90+2
Starmer for example should be pushing for it. If he can't see the parallel between saying this week that not enough British people are becoming nurses and the fact their wages have been more than decimated, then he's dafter than I thought