Funny that eh! In my constituency a vote for Labour might let the Tories in ahead of the SNP.Quote:
Originally Posted by hibeenicol
Of course, you said any vote for the SNP was a wasted vote.
Presumably, you meant a vote for the SNP in your constituency?
PS - FTTP voting system. Total joke.
Take off the blinkers Woody. Stop believing all the crap about who we're not fit or clever enough to run our own economy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Woody1985
Some bedtime reading for you!!!!
http://www.scottishindependenceconve...ell-051107.asp
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beefster
More cynical?
More arrogant?
More manipulative?
More corrupt?
Bigger liars?
Deeper into the pockets of business?
More contemptuous of the electorate?
More hypocritical?
That do for a start?
(Though to be fair, I wouldn't be so naive as to suggest that the politicians from the smaller parties don't share the same capacity for self-serving, self-seeking greed as Brown and Cameron and their cronies do.)
Has there ever been a truly independent report on the pros and cons of Scotland going it alone?Quote:
Originally Posted by allmodcons
As far as I remember, everything I've ever read has come from one camp or the either.
My Dad's like that, voted Labour since Harold Wilson was leader, hated Blair so i asked him "why not vote Green/SSP/SNP/Lib Dems as they more closely mirror your views?" To which he replied "there's no point, they wont win".Quote:
Originally Posted by AgentDaleCooper
It's such a self defeating attitude which is perpetuated by the big two in their "vote for us or you'll get Brown/Cameron as PM" scare tactics.
:agree: Beefster. What I said earlier was that a good case could be made for Scotland going it alone.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beefster
Personally, I'm always intrigued as to how countries of a similar size to Scotland like Sweden, Norway, Finland, Denmark & Switzerland manage their own economies.
Must just be more clever than us thick Scots!
Same to you.:take thatQuote:
Originally Posted by Rawr.rar
The answer is no. The reason is is that its an impossible question to answer, there are far too many imponderables.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beefster
It annoys me when people explain their position on independence from a solely economic position. Whatever happened to identity making a difference?:confused:
Nationality is just an accident of birth. Why do people think that where you are born makes you different?
The question assumes that voters make a positive analysis of the situation before balancing the relative merits of parties and casting their votes. I would suggest that when a government changes it is a question of the incumbents losing rather than the opposiition winning. Sooner or later the floating voters in a limited number of constituencies become discontented with the leading party and reject them for something different i.e. a negative reaction to the status quo rather than a positive belief merits of the alternative.
Because 'identity' is way down on the list of Joe Public's list of priorities and doesn't have an impact on day-to-day life?Quote:
Originally Posted by hibsbollah
Who is this 'Joe Public' blokey and where does he live?Quote:
Originally Posted by Beefster
If you think someones identity (culture, nationality, upbringing, family, moral code, i could go on) doesnt have 'an impact on day-to-day life), I suggest you think again.
:agree: Identity should make a difference, however, if the SNP is ever going to get us to full Independence the ecomonic case has to be credible.Quote:
Originally Posted by hibsbollah
Big problem and, indeed major hurdle,for the SNP is the pro Unionist media and the incessant tripe coming from all 3 main parties that Scotland would be some kind of economic basket case if we went it alone. If you tell the people something often enough...............
Personally, I'd vote SNP even if the econoimc case wasn't that good and IMO an Independent Scotland would have a more 'left of centre minded' Government because I believe that Scots have a different set of core values from our English neighbours, especially, those in the SE of England.
So yes, identity does and indeed should matter.
I'll give you culture at a push but how will upbringing, family, moral code and more benefit from an independent Scotland? Have they benefited from devolution?Quote:
Originally Posted by hibsbollah
If experts are struggling to make the economic case, I'd have thought that these would have been even tougher to quantify.
You're flapping about:faf: You said 'identity' (as defined) "doesnt have an impact on day to day life", and "is way down on the list of Joe Public's list of priorities" . I'm saying you're wrong. Have you changed your mind?Quote:
Originally Posted by Beefster
SNP left of center, that's a laugh. Check their voting record at westminster. They have voted with the Tories 66% of the time with Wee Eck even higher.Quote:
Originally Posted by allmodcons
Scotland is a more left wing in nature than England but that has never been the SNPs views. The Nats are a broad church with many different political views but they all come together under the independence argument. But left of center never
It depends on how you're defining 'identity'. I took it differently, you clarified how you intended it, I accepted that and asked for some more justification.Quote:
Originally Posted by hibsbollah
In case you've missed it, I'm not actually arguing with you - only trying to get your views. Feel free to accuse me of 'flapping' if it helps though.
OK, my position is that when people explain their position on independence from a solely economic position, it rings hollow because there are too many unknowns to know what the impact of independence would be on Scotlands fiscal or macroeconomic position. Debate it on the basis of your gut feeling. allmodcons makes a good job of it in the post above; he feels scottish core values chime more closely with his values than those of england, hence he supports independence. ( as it happens, you could make an argument for typical scottish virtues of conservatism and prudence, and Adam Smiths heritage chiming closely with traditional Tory values as well).Quote:
Originally Posted by Beefster
If you like the Union, say why you like it.
Why do you think that?Quote:
Originally Posted by Rawr.rar
"as we know, there are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns - the ones we don't know we don't know". Donald Rumsfeld 2002
You should read posts before reponding to them.Quote:
Originally Posted by lucky
I said IMO an Independent Scotland would be more left of centre minded. Reason = most Scots think/vote that way.
I never said the SNP was left of centre, that's another argument.
You then go on to completely ruin you're own argument by saying the Nats are a broad church. This is, of course, correct and explains why myself and many other left of centre minded individuals are members of the SNP.
But the leadership of the SNP are more right of center. An independant scoland will be more left wing but not under the SNP. That was the point your were making. Independence is not going to lead to more left wing polices but the removal of Wee Eck and his cronnies will give scotland a chance
Do you still blame the SNP for Thatcher, or do you blame the liberals who left the coalition and therefore weakened the government the year before or do you blame the Labour party for messing up and being beaten fair and square by the voters who turned to Thatcher?Quote:
Originally Posted by lucky
You didn't answer that point. I'm interested how Labour folklore deals with that.
I would vote for either of them before voting for a party whose very fibre is built around racial hatred and that is why we will always remain part of the Union. the Nats have been well found out, emptying prisons and continuing to blame the English for everything!! Tossers, the party is over for them, they had their chance!Quote:
Originally Posted by AgentDaleCooper
:faf:Quote:
Originally Posted by corrie greens
Always cracking the jokes, fantastic:thumbsup:
As I said in my earlier post the political position of the SNP is another argument altogther.Quote:
Originally Posted by lucky
FWIW the 'broad church' that is the SNP is a social democratic left of centre party and, for that matter so, is Alex Salmond (it would be a good idea for you to do some web surfing on the SNP '79 group - AS was a founding member and was even expelled by the party for being a 'leftie').
You should also check out SNP policies before having a go at them based on their voting record against a right of centre New Labour Government. Here's a wee sample, are these poilcies not left of centre:-
No to the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan
No to the renewal of Trident WMD
No new council house sales
A progressive tax system based on ability to pay
If you need anymore convincing you can check out their manifestos at www.snp.org
Great post.Quote:
Originally Posted by corrie greens
You must have put a great amount of thought into it - 'racists' and 'tossers' :faf:.
I take it you're sitting on your brain whilst typing.
And I take it you are going to be fool enough to tell me that there is no "English hatred" within the SNP?Quote:
Originally Posted by allmodcons
Does that include Scottish Watch and Settler Watch?Quote:
Originally Posted by allmodcons
Sorry CG I'm too busy being a racist tosser to answer any of your questions!Quote:
Originally Posted by corrie greens
Quote:
Originally Posted by allmodcons
That's fine, I can wait......This is got be the Holy Ground at it's best, I mean really....Posters suggesting that the SNP aren't racist, i've heard it all now! Priceless!