Bus drivers strike

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Originally Posted by HUTCHYHIBBY

I've yet to speak to anyone that isn't sympathising with the drivers, good luck to them, they provide a highly efficient service.

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I think people may become a bit less sympathetic if they've also got to give up a day's wage cos they can't get to work. :greengrin

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Originally Posted by beensaidbefore

How would you suggest I get from oxgangs to leith?

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I'm confident if the strike goes ahead there will be a limited (but busy) service. I may be wrong but I think Airlink services are unaffected so you could jump on a 400 and either walk or utilise another bus service from Fort Kinnaird or head west, jump on a tram at Sighthill then walk down Leith Walk.

I'm not suggesting it's going to be easy but living & working within the city limits should never be impossible,,,,

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Originally Posted by speedy_gonzales

I'm confident if the strike goes ahead there will be a limited (but busy) service. I may be wrong but I think Airlink services are unaffected so you could jump on a 400 and either walk or utilise another bus service from Fort Kinnaird or head west, jump on a tram at Sighthill then walk down Leith Walk.

I'm not suggesting it's going to be easy but living & working within the city limits should never be impossible,,,,

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I will need to check the Airlink bus. I thought that would have been off too. Cheers for the heads up. As you say still a pain, but better than walking.

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Originally Posted by beensaidbefore

I think people may become a bit less sympathetic if they've also got to give up a day's wage cos they can't get to work. :greengrin

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I'm not sure what your post means, have I only spoke to jobless people?

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Originally Posted by Cataplana

Neither have I, but the BBC managed to find the only two people in Edinburgh who criticised them, on last night's news. As well as letting Richard Hall take the whole issue on his shoulders, "I am trying to improve the bus service", or words to that effect. Not, "we", or "the company", but "I".

The guy looks seriously out of his depth, and has probably found that running mass transit in a large city is not the same thing as making sure there are four buses a day between Campbelltown and Lochgilphead, as he did at West Coast Motors.

People who have risen too far tend to concentrate on the petty things like whether ties need to be worn in summer, instead of tackling the big issues like equipping the fleet with contactless.

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From what hat I understand, he’s made a boo boo with the contactless. Apparently you can only purchase £1.70 single ticket on one card only. You can’t buy a family day ticket. Embarrassing for a city that has one of the biggest international festivals in the world.

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Originally Posted by Future17

Your involvement in this thread reads like a total car crash and your position is the same as a drunk driver, swerving about all over the place unsure of what line to take.

You probably could have said something like; "there are two sides to every story, so I won't be forming an opinion until I'm satisfied I know enough of the detail" and left it at that. Unfortunately, you're so intent on arguing and noising people up that you'll find a way to try and justify a position that's contradictory to what the majority of others have said, then express that position in an aggressive/patronising/dismissive way.

Of course, when the subject matter is subjective, everyone is entitled to an opinion. However, as other posters have noted on this thread and others, you carry on this pattern of being contrary until you're caught out on something factual and someone proves you to be wrong, which you then refuse to acknowledge and simply avoid the thread for a few days.

You are the Donald Trump of Hibs.net.

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You say this:

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Originally Posted by Future17

you're so intent on arguing and noising people up

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Then you say something provoking like this:

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Originally Posted by Future17

You are the Donald Trump of Hibs.net.

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Where have I even taken a side on this thread? :confused: I'm simply offering an alternative for people to get their heads around. Nobody has to agree with it. I'm not even suggesting that I agree with it. But for the purpose of balance i'm putting it out there and I couldn't care less if you don't like it.

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Originally Posted by Fife-Hibee

So what exactly are they striking for? Who has been bullied? Because by the sounds of it, the people who were bullied (on social media) have taken action against the bullies and now the bullies are the ones going on strike? :confused:

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Looks like you have clearly taken a side there.

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Originally Posted by Fife-Hibee

Really?

Seems like some people thought they could run off at the mouth on the world wide web and not be pulled up for it. They do realize this is 2019?

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Looks like you have taken a side here as well.

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Originally Posted by Fife-Hibee

Which is the same as any other line of work where the employees never really get much of a chance to establish much of a working relationship with their managers.

If you're an employee for a company where you're rarely ever around the vicinity of the manager and you actively stick the boot into them publicly over the internet using a social media platform that clearly identifies who you are. Then you're asking to be sacked.

I have no sympathy for anybody who is daft enough to do that.

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You have definitely taken a side here

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Originally Posted by Fife-Hibee

This doesn't just apply to bus drivers. I've heard of black cab taxi drivers being reported for similar things. There are some very strict policies in place and regardless of what your personal opinion of those policies are, the workers know what the policies are and that they must be adhered to at all times.

If an employee wants to take the risk by breaking company policy because they think the policy is stupid or for whatever other reason, then they always run the risk of being fired and have to take responsibility for their own actions when it happens.

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I think we can see which side you are on with this one as well.

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Originally Posted by Fife-Hibee

Many people around the outskirts of the city only have lothian routes to rely on. The only "alternative" is forking out taxi fares. Extortionate if you're working a minimum wage job somewhere around the city centre. Let's not kid on this isn't going to be a major complication for a sizable amount of people.

Unless they get clear on what exactly it is they're trying to achieve through strike action, they're not going to build up much public sympathy.

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Drivers causing disruption by their actions? Looks like you have decided which side you are on here as well.

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Originally Posted by Fife-Hibee

Where have I even taken a side on this thread? :confused: I'm simply offering an alternative for people to get their heads around. Nobody has to agree with it. I'm not even suggesting that I agree with it. But for the purpose of balance i'm putting it out there and I couldn't care less if you don't like it.

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And the answer to your question is...............................................

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Originally Posted by marinello59

Looks like you have clearly taken a side there.


Looks like you have taken a side here as well.
You have definitely taken a side here
I think we can see which side you are on with this one as well.
Drivers causing disruption by their actions? Looks like you have decided which side you are on here as well.

And the answer to your question is...............................................

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Not taking sides though. My points are pretty much impartial. The drivers are being treated in a way that they would be in almost any other line of work. You can't rubbish a manager that you don't have much of an established relationship with over the internet and expect not to be pulled up for it when somebody reports that information to him/her.

I've asked repeatedly on this thread what the drivers are actually aiming to accomplish through this strike action and nobody seems to know. Despite siding with them over the issue.

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Originally Posted by Fife-Hibee

Not taking sides though. My points are pretty much impartial. The drivers are being treated in a way that they would be in almost any other line of work. You can't rubbish a manager that you don't have much of an established relationship with over the internet and expect not to be pulled up for it when somebody reports that information to him/her.

I've asked repeatedly on this thread what the drivers are actually aiming to accomplish through this strike action and nobody seems to know. Despite siding with them over the issue.

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The drivers are trying to show the bosses that if they treat them like **** this will be the consequences, no buses on the road. Do you think theyve all went on strike over 1 incident? I thought you were the all seeing eye Fifey, you have a conspiracy theory for everything but in this case your blaming the little guys on the front line.

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Originally Posted by makaveli1875

The drivers are trying to show the bosses that if they treat them like **** this will be the consequences, no buses on the road. Do you think theyve all went on strike over 1 incident? I thought you were the all seeing eye Fifey, you have a conspiracy theory for everything but in this case your blaming the little guys on the front line.

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They’re going on a continuous strike though? So how will not being at work allow the boss(es) to show they’ve changed their ways?

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Originally Posted by Fife-Hibee

I've asked repeatedly on this thread what the drivers are actually aiming to accomplish through this strike action and nobody seems to know. Despite siding with them over the issue.

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I think this is one of the problems we face in the modern era, everyone expects to know everything right away.

Unless there's an LRT bus driver on .net willing to share then I don't know why this thread would provide the answers to your questions. :dunno:

It has came out that the problems go beyond money and are to do with a bullying culture. I'm sure the drivers will have communicated what they want changed to the appropriate people, there's no reason for it to be public knowledge.

Anyway, a bus strike at the start of the festivals sounds like it could be chaotic. I hope it's resolved relatively quickly and their working conditions improve to the standard they should be. The buses in Edinburgh are brilliant I think, the drivers generally do a good job operating them and from what I can see the bosses seem to be a good job making the service tick from the top.

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Originally Posted by Danderhall Hibs

They’re going on a continuous strike though? So how will not being at work allow the boss(es) to show they’ve changed their ways?

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Most bus drivers won't be in a financial position to take more than a couple of days unpaid due to striking. If they do strike on Friday I would imagine it won't last very long.

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Originally Posted by Weegreenman

From what hat I understand, he’s made a boo boo with the contactless. Apparently you can only purchase £1.70 single ticket on one card only. You can’t buy a family day ticket. Embarrassing for a city that has one of the biggest international festivals in the world.

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I didn't realise that. According to the EEN, or Pravda as I prefer to call it, the system would cap your fares once you reached a daily maximum. They were trying to make out, as they always do, that it was the same as living in London.

In London, you register your card with an account, and you get a daily breakdown of how it was used. I'm not sure if family tickets can be used with the card, but I would have thought it should be possible.

The archaic system of payment on the Lothian buses is becoming something of an embarrassment, and must cause challenges during the tourist season. Time for the board to start asking the CEO what exactly he has achieved during his time here, other than pissing staff and customers off.

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Originally Posted by danhibees1875

I think this is one of the problems we face in the modern era, everyone expects to know everything right away.

Unless there's an LRT bus driver on .net willing to share then I don't know why this thread would provide the answers to your questions. :dunno:

It has came out that the problems go beyond money and are to do with a bullying culture. I'm sure the drivers will have communicated what they want changed to the appropriate people, there's no reason for it to be public knowledge.

Anyway, a bus strike at the start of the festivals sounds like it could be chaotic. I hope it's resolved relatively quickly and their working conditions improve to the standard they should be. The buses in Edinburgh are brilliant I think, the drivers generally do a good job operating them and from what I can see the bosses seem to be a good job making the service tick from the top.

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Normally “demands” are stated publicly - that way they can get the public on their side.

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Originally Posted by Since90+2

Most bus drivers won't be in a financial position to take more than a couple of days unpaid due to striking. If they do strike on Friday I would imagine it won't last very long.

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Agreed but these strikes are normally targeted for 1 day maximum disruption - these guys are just saying continuous so unless something changes (whatever it is they want) and they have another vote, they’re off until it’s sorted.

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Originally Posted by Fife-Hibee

Not taking sides though. My points are pretty much impartial. The drivers are being treated in a way that they would be in almost any other line of work. You can't rubbish a manager that you don't have much of an established relationship with over the internet and expect not to be pulled up for it when somebody reports that information to him/her.

I've asked repeatedly on this thread what the drivers are actually aiming to accomplish through this strike action and nobody seems to know. Despite siding with them over the issue.

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Your points aren’t impartial. You have repeatedly (as demonstrated by M59) adopted the position of of the management, and not once have you adopted the position of the drivers. At every turn you have questioned and criticised the actions of the drivers, and refused to accept any criticism of the management, despite multiple examples provided.

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Originally Posted by Danderhall Hibs

Normally “demands” are stated publicly - that way they can get the public on their side.

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To be honest, I can't remember ever paying much attention to strike action before. I remember the teachers were pretty vocal about their % pay increase. I guess that's an easier message to get across rather than a culture shift in the way upper management treat staff.

If it is common practice to publicise demands of all kinds and the drivers haven't done so and aren't interested in just more money then a resolution doesn't seem all that likely anytime soon!

Hopefully it's not raining on Friday...

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Originally Posted by danhibees1875

To be honest, I can't remember ever paying much attention to strike action before. I remember the teachers were pretty vocal about their % pay increase. I guess that's an easier message to get across rather than a culture shift in the way upper management treat staff.

If it is common practice to publicise demands of all kinds and the drivers haven't done so and aren't interested in just more money then a resolution doesn't seem all that likely anytime soon!

Hopefully it's not raining on Friday...

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That’s true - usually it’s pay or t&c (pensions etc) which is easier to debate. This one seems different but I’d still have thought they’d have a list of wants - seems their union don’t get it either as they’ve twice recommended they accept the pay increase and the members have gone against them.

I'm with Fife on this.

F*** the workers.

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Originally Posted by McD

Your points aren’t impartial. You have repeatedly (as demonstrated by M59) adopted the position of of the management, and not once have you adopted the position of the drivers. At every turn you have questioned and criticised the actions of the drivers, and refused to accept any criticism of the management, despite multiple examples provided.

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I'm simply adding balance. Sure, it may make me the odd one out on the thread. But I don't care. You're all quick to jump onto the "poor employee" stereotype without being able to present any real facts surrounding the situation.

I'm offering people the opportunity to consider that it may not all be a simple case of poor worker vs big evil management. I'm sure the situation is far more complicated than what is being presented here.

If you don't care about detail and just want to jump on a bandwagon, then that's your right to do so. But at least be honest about it.

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Originally Posted by makaveli1875

The drivers are trying to show the bosses that if they treat them like **** this will be the consequences, no buses on the road. Do you think theyve all went on strike over 1 incident? I thought you were the all seeing eye Fifey, you have a conspiracy theory for everything but in this case your blaming the little guys on the front line.

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How do you know they're being "treated like ****"? Are you a bus driver? Do you have first hand experience? Can you trust the opinions of bus drivers to be completely impartial and unbiased in their claims?

Who knows. If you actually knew the details of the situation you'd perhaps come to the conclusion that they're not really being bullied at all and are making a big fuss over things that everybody in the working sector has to deal with.

But we don't know do we? Because the details aren't there. You're just assuming that they're given an unfair time based on nothing more than their own personal claims that they are.

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Originally Posted by Fife-Hibee

I'm simply adding balance. Sure, it may make me the odd one out on the thread. But I don't care. You're all quick to jump onto the "poor employee" stereotype without being able to present any real facts surrounding the situation.

I'm offering people the opportunity to consider that it may not all be a simple case of poor worker vs big evil management. I'm sure the situation is far more complicated than what is being presented here.

If you don't care about detail and just want to jump on a bandwagon, then that's your right to do so. But at least be honest about it.

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Odd to see you take the side of the evil oppressor though for all the greeting you do about big evil Westminster and the poor oppressed Scots .

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Originally Posted by makaveli1875

Odd to see you take the side of the evil oppressor though for all the greeting you do about big evil Westminster and the poor oppressed Scots .

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The "evil oppressor". :faf:

Once again, just believing whatever you want to believe without any details or fact to back up your assertion.

My disdain for Westminster is (believe it or not) based on real actual events that have unfolded right in front of our eyes. Not basic claims with no details surrounding the situations.

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Originally Posted by Fife-Hibee

How do you know they're being "treated like ****"? Are you a bus driver? Do you have first hand experience? Can you trust the opinions of bus drivers to be completely impartial and unbiased in their claims?

Who knows. If you actually knew the details of the situation you'd perhaps come to the conclusion that they're not really being bullied at all and are making a big fuss over things that everybody in the working sector has to deal with.

But we don't know do we? Because the details aren't there. You're just assuming that they're given an unfair time based on nothing more than their own personal claims that they are.

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Are you a manager at Lothian Buses? :greengrin

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Originally Posted by lord bunberry

Are you a manager at Lothian Buses? :greengrin

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No, i'm just somebody who likes details before making self righteous assumptions. It's all too easy to side with the poor wee employee when there's no effort to gather all of the information to form a well informed opinion.

The bus drivers may well be getting treated poorly. But so far, all we've had are claims and people making assumptions around those claims. We also haven't heard from the managements perspective either, which could well shed a whole different light onto the situation.

I just think it would be sensible to withhold the pitchforks until we know exactly what the deal is here. Does that not seem like the more mature, grown up thing to do?

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Originally Posted by Fife-Hibee

No, i'm just somebody who likes details before making self righteous assumptions.

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:faf: :faf: :faf:

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Originally Posted by Fife-Hibee

No, i'm just somebody who likes details before making self righteous assumptions. It's all too easy to side with the poor wee employee when there's no effort to gather all of the information to form a well informed opinion.

The bus drivers may well be getting treated poorly. But so far, all we've had are claims and people making assumptions around those claims. We also haven't heard from the managements perspective either, which could well shed a whole different light onto the situation.

I just think it would be sensible to withhold the pitchforks until we know exactly what the deal is here. Does that not seem like the more mature, grown up thing to do?

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I hope the strike is long and bitter, I might get a wee winter break in the sun. :greengrin

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Originally Posted by Fife-Hibee

No, i'm just somebody who likes details before making self righteous assumptions.

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Wow.

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Originally Posted by Fife-Hibee

How do you know they're being "treated like ****"? Are you a bus driver? Do you have first hand experience? Can you trust the opinions of bus drivers to be completely impartial and unbiased in their claims?

Who knows. If you actually knew the details of the situation you'd perhaps come to the conclusion that they're not really being bullied at all and are making a big fuss over things that everybody in the working sector has to deal with.

But we don't know do we? Because the details aren't there. You're just assuming that they're given an unfair time based on nothing more than their own personal claims that they are.

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But isn't 90%+ of the workforce's stance the best account or 'details' we're likely to obtain?

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Originally Posted by WeeRussell

But isn't 90%+ of the workforce's stance the best account or 'details' we're likely to obtain?

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It was 91% of the 63% of union members, so in reality we’ll below 90% of the workforce. According to Lothian buses it’s 693 of the workforce (there are 1709 union members and many more not in the union.)

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Originally Posted by Fife-Hibee

How do you know they're being "treated like ****"? Are you a bus driver? Do you have first hand experience? Can you trust the opinions of bus drivers to be completely impartial and unbiased in their claims?

Who knows. If you actually knew the details of the situation you'd perhaps come to the conclusion that they're not really being bullied at all and are making a big fuss over things that everybody in the working sector has to deal with.

But we don't know do we? Because the details aren't there. You're just assuming that they're given an unfair time based on nothing more than their own personal claims that they are.

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Im not a bus driver myself so no 1st hand experience but I know a few mechanics and bus drivers at LRT and the picture they paint isn't great. I always assumed a bit of exaggeration, we all like a good moan about our employer after all but it would seem there is something in it after all.

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Originally Posted by Danderhall Hibs

It was 91% of the 63% of union members, so in reality we’ll below 90% of the workforce. According to Lothian buses it’s 693 of the workforce (there are 1709 union members and many more not in the union.)

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603 of 1709 isn't 91% of 63%.

91% of 63% equates to 57.33% of the total union membership so someone is telling porkies.

Probably the workers. (Just adding balance).

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Originally Posted by Danderhall Hibs

It was 91% of the 63% of union members, so in reality we’ll below 90% of the workforce. According to Lothian buses it’s 693 of the workforce (there are 1709 union members and many more not in the union.)

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ah - makes sense

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Originally Posted by Danderhall Hibs

It was 91% of the 63% of union members, so in reality we’ll below 90% of the workforce. According to Lothian buses it’s 693 of the workforce (there are 1709 union members and many more not in the union.)

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The turnout was 63% and of those 91% voted in favour of strike action. As a trade union full timer, not for Unite, I'd be delighted with that turnout and majority. Unite's press release said they have 1700 members approximately eligible to strike as part of the bargaining unit. By my sums 963 voted for the action therefore but all 1700 can take part in any strike

603 might be the number of union members who didn't vote or maybe the number of non union members, or maybe the number of union members who didn't vote combined with non union members.

So many numbers and percentages, it's an easy mistake for the benevolent and upstanding management to make.

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Originally Posted by Fife-Hibee

Where have I even taken a side on this thread? :confused: I'm simply offering an alternative for people to get their heads around. Nobody has to agree with it. I'm not even suggesting that I agree with it. But for the purpose of balance i'm putting it out there and I couldn't care less if you don't like it.

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One of your initial posts on this thread stated, “perhaps it’s more sensible to know the actual details before jumping on the bandwagon?” You later added that “nobody really knows any of the details” behind the proposed strike and stated you hadn't heard any examples of unjust reprimands from managers.

However, you were then provided with such examples and your position became that it didn't matter whether a policy was unjust, an employee would have to accept responsibility for being sacked if they didn't adhere to that policy. You followed that up by saying “the drivers are being treated in a way that they would be in almost any other line of work”.

Your claim to be playing some kind of devil’s advocate on this thread, rather than just trying to get a reaction from other posters, would be a lot more credible if you could maintain a consistent position in that regard.

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Originally Posted by Hibbyradge

603 might be the number of union members who didn't vote or maybe the number of non union members, or maybe the number of union members who didn't vote combined with non union members.

So many numbers and percentages, it's an easy mistake for the benevolent and upstanding management to make.

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Nice edit. :greengrin

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Originally Posted by Future17

Nice edit. :greengrin

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Aye, I don't have my reading glasses on so I misunderstood the previous post. 🤓

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Originally Posted by Hibbyradge

Aye, I don't have my reading glasses on so I misunderstood the previous post. 🤓

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Have you got them on now. I could recommend a good book :wink:

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Originally Posted by Hibbyradge

Aye, I don't have my reading glasses on so I misunderstood the previous post. 🤓

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Sorry, I actually thought you'd edited your prior post to change the last line, but I see it's still there. :-)

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Originally Posted by Future17

Sorry, I actually thought you'd edited your prior post to change the last line, but I see it's still there. :-)

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Ha ha I actually wasn't sure what you were referring to, but I make so many mistakes, I just accepted your reprimand.

I am an innocent man after all! :flag:

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Originally Posted by Hibbyradge

Ha ha I actually wasn't sure what you were referring to, but I make so many mistakes, I just accepted your reprimand.

I am an innocent man after all! :flag:

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Well some say you are unkind but you are being as nice as you can :wink:

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Originally Posted by Lester B

Well some say you are unkind but you are being as nice as you can :wink:

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Got a light? :greengrin

I'm with Fife.

It isn't healthy to assume that either the drivers or management are at fault without knowing more facts.

With the benefit of further information, either situation could be the case.

We don't know much, other than a few anecdotes shared on here.

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Originally Posted by Fife-Hibee

I'm simply adding balance. Sure, it may make me the odd one out on the thread. But I don't care. You're all quick to jump onto the "poor employee" stereotype without being able to present any real facts surrounding the situation.

I'm offering people the opportunity to consider that it may not all be a simple case of poor worker vs big evil management. I'm sure the situation is far more complicated than what is being presented here.

If you don't care about detail and just want to jump on a bandwagon, then that's your right to do so. But at least be honest about it.

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Yes, let’s focus on detail for a moment, since you are keen to do so. In detail, can you show me where I’ve indicated support for the drivers or management on this thread. You know, since you’ve just accused me of jumping on a bandwagon and being dishonest about it.


Also, adding balance isn’t the same as being impartial. your posts have demonstrated the opposite of impartiality, as M59 demonstrated earlier. If you’d said in the first place you were adding balance, then no one would have challenged what you’ve said, but you have claimed impartiality, which is definitely not what you’ve exhibited.

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Originally Posted by Fife-Hibee

I'm simply adding balance. Sure, it may make me the odd one out on the thread. But I don't care. You're all quick to jump onto the "poor employee" stereotype without being able to present any real facts surrounding the situation.

I'm offering people the opportunity to consider that it may not all be a simple case of poor worker vs big evil management. I'm sure the situation is far more complicated than what is being presented here.

If you don't care about detail and just want to jump on a bandwagon, then that's your right to do so. But at least be honest about it.

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Firstly, people have been presenting facts on the situation, often from experience as former drivers, or based on what friends have told them. You rightly point out the perils of any employee posting on social media, so hardly surprising that you aren't getting a flood of current employees coming on to provide facts.

I'd like to thank you for your offer to consider alternative explanations to the one I didn't offer. Thanks, but as you don't provide any facts or examples to back that point up, I am no closer to the point of view you would like me to take. Can you possibly fill in the missing parts of the picture?

I am somebody that likes detail, and I have to say that you just cast around with empty phrases that sound like you are maybe making an argument, when in fact all you are doing is saying there may be an argument to be had.

Perhaps if you knew the background to how the current management structure at LRT was developed, you might start to appreciate that it is entirely possible that a bunch of tossers are currently running the company.

The previous board were ousted due to political machinations by a tram supporting cabal on the council, led by the discredited former provost Lesley Hinds. The previous management had gained the respect of their drivers, and the move to empty them out when they were doing a great job (Britain's Best Bus Company) was never going to be popular.

The service has declined since their arrival, with popular routes disappearing and being replaced by airport services instead. Drivers are disciplined for the most petty breaches of policy, meanwhile the management can breach the same policies with impunity.

I suspect you are something a wind up merchant, as you often appear to take both sides in an argument, frequently contradicting yourself in the space of a couple of posts. I would welcome balance on this thread, but don't kid yourself you are providing it.

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Originally Posted by Smartie

I'm with Fife.

It isn't healthy to assume that either the drivers or management are at fault without knowing more facts.

With the benefit of further information, either situation could be the case.

We don't know much, other than a few anecdotes shared on here.

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Careful Now!

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Originally Posted by HUTCHYHIBBY

I'm not sure what your post means, have I only spoke to jobless people?

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The post you replied to said people were willing to give up a day's wageto make a stand. You commented that everyone you had spoke to had sympathy with the strikers. I figured that opinion may change if they are forced to take a day off from work because they had no means of getting there.

I have no idea who you canvassed, but I can think of a few people who don't get paid unless they attend work. Makes life hell of a difficult for carers etc who may need to get to multiple locations throughout the day and rely on the bus to get them there.

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Originally Posted by beensaidbefore

The post you replied to said people were willing to give up a day's wageto make a stand. You commented that everyone you had spoke to had sympathy with the strikers. I figured that opinion may change if they are forced to take a day off from work because they had no means of getting there.

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I can only imagine they would've considered that before voicing an opinion.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fife-Hibee

I'm simply adding balance. Sure, it may make me the odd one out on the thread. But I don't care. You're all quick to jump onto the "poor employee" stereotype without being able to present any real facts surrounding the situation.

I'm offering people the opportunity to consider that it may not all be a simple case of poor worker vs big evil management. I'm sure the situation is far more complicated than what is being presented here.

If you don't care about detail and just want to jump on a bandwagon, then that's your right to do so. But at least be honest about it.

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In my opinion you're one of the most unbalanced posters on this site.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fife-Hibee

Not taking sides though. My points are pretty much impartial. The drivers are being treated in a way that they would be in almost any other line of work. You can't rubbish a manager that you don't have much of an established relationship with over the internet and expect not to be pulled up for it when somebody reports that information to him/her.

I've asked repeatedly on this thread what the drivers are actually aiming to accomplish through this strike action and nobody seems to know. Despite siding with them over the issue.

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I know people who work there. There's lots of examples of really dodgy goings on. Do you think it would be wise given the current culture at Lothian and given someone has already been sacked for stuff online to come on here and give details?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jack

I know people who work there. There's lots of examples of really dodgy goings on. Do you think it would be wise given the current culture at Lothian and given someone has already been sacked for stuff online to come on here and give details?



In my opinion you're one of the most unbalanced posters on this site.

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Still not getting the details. :rolleyes:

The "I ken somebody who once said this about that" argument is hardly convincing.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fife-Hibee

Still not getting the details. :rolleyes:

The "I ken somebody who once said this about that" argument is hardly convincing.

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You won't get your details. On the balance of play do you not think it's more likely than not at this point though? Or do you think they're just going on strike for a laugh?

"The weather's nice this Friday, let's say there's a bad bullying culture here and just get down the beach. Which bus is to to Portobello?"

I see they are drawing up plans to bring in drivers from elsewhere according to the evening news.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by danhibees1875

You won't get your details. On the balance of play do you not think it's more likely than not at this point though? Or do you think they're just going on strike for a laugh?

"The weather's nice this Friday, let's say there's a bad bullying culture here and just get down the beach. Which bus is to to Portobello?"

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They may well feel bullied. But "feeling" bullied and actually being bullied as it's defined in law are 2 different things. There's no evidence to suggest that they're given any more of a hard time than employees in other fields of work.

So far i've heard of one sacking. Something I believe would have happened in almost any other line of work had the same situation occured.

Being told to wear ties and clothing that are representative of the company they work for? Those poor poor souls.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fife-Hibee

They may well feel bullied. But "feeling" bullied and actually being bullied as it's defined in law are 2 different things. There's no evidence to suggest that they're given any more of a hard time than employees in other fields of work.

So far i've heard of one sacking. Something I believe would have happened in almost any other line of work had the same situation occured.

Being told to wear ties and clothing that are representative of the company they work for? Those poor poor souls.

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I don't see why they'd go on strike over nothing though. They're not making loads of money, they'll be quite reliant on their income and yet a very high majority of them have decided to go on strike. That surely shows there's something that's quite wrong going on.

That's "evidence which suggests" they're being given a harder time than other people in other jobs.

Out of interest, do you have something against bus drivers?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by danhibees1875

I don't see why they'd go on strike over nothing though. They're not making loads of money, they'll be quite reliant on their income and yet a very high majority of them have decided to go on strike. That surely shows there's something that's quite wrong going on.

That's "evidence which suggests" they're being given a harder time than other people in other jobs.

Out of interest, do you have something against bus drivers?

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If they have a reason for this, then let it be known to the public. Surely people who rely on bus services to get around have a right to know why that won't be an option for them due to this strike?

I have nothing against bus drivers personally. I do however realize that they're not all wonderful people. Some of them are complete twats. Which can be said about employees in every different sector.

:troll:

Let's be honest, a strike would be useless if it didn't cause inconvenience. Maybe folks will now reflect on the excellent service these guys provide.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg

Let's be honest, a strike would be useless if it didn't cause inconvenience. Maybe folks will now reflect on the excellent service these guys provide.

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But fundamentally useless when it causes an inconvenience to people who have no idea what the strike is even for or trying to achieve.

If you want to get the public on side with a strike, you've got to be transparent with them about it. A strike without explaination will have the opposite effect.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fife-Hibee

If they have a reason for this, then let it be known to the public. Surely people who rely on bus services to get around have a right to know why that won't be an option for them due to this strike?

I have nothing against bus drivers personally. I do however realize that they're not all wonderful people. Some of them are complete twats. Which can be said about employees in every different sector.

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There's no rule that says they have to let the public know. It would be nice to know out of nosiness I agree, but I don't see how it makes any difference to you or I. :dunno:

I'd be confident that there's enough internal discussion and those that need to know what's happening do know. If it's not as simple as wanting a "5% pay increase" then they've maybe decided to just not bother publicising the issues/wants incase it leads to confusion and crossed messages which turn the public against them.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fife-Hibee

But fundamentally useless when it causes an inconvenience to people who have no idea what the strike is even for or trying to achieve.

If you want to get the public on side with a strike, you've got to be transparent with them about it. A strike without explaination will have the opposite effect.

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I don't even live in Edinburgh but I know what it's about. :confused:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by danhibees1875

There's no rule that says they have to let the public know. It would be nice to know out of nosiness I agree, but I don't see how it makes any difference to you or I. :dunno:

I'd be confident that there's enough internal discussion and those that need to know what's happening do know. If it's not as simple as wanting a "5% pay increase" then they've maybe decided to just not bother publicising the issues/wants incase it leads to confusion and crossed messages which turn the public against them.

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Well surely they would have some sort of body or representative leading the strike. So confusion and crossed messages shouldn't be an issue. They could release an official statement. They don't have to go hugely in depth. Just give the public something.

Holding a strike shrouded in secrecy can only work in favour of the management they're stiking against.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg

I don't even live in Edinburgh but I know what it's about. :confused:

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What is it about? Bullying? There's been no real actual examples provided of this apparent bullying. So how can we accurately determine whether the claim of bullying is even justified or not? :confused:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fife-Hibee

What is it about? Bullying? There's been no real actual examples provided of this apparent bullying. So how can we accurately determine whether the claim of bullying is even justified or not? :confused:

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So you want details about what could be an international disciplinary matter? The information is out there but the company and union are correct not to openly discuss an on going investigation.

Can I be the first to say that although the management are going to hire scab drivers, we can't be certain that this is the case, and should consider that there may be other explanations?

At the same time we should examine our consciences closely as to whether or not we agree with the term scab, as neither the management, or the union, or the public has appeared in print to say exactly what a scab is. There could be other explanations for this so called scab activity, and we shouldn't just jump on the bandwagon based on what we have been told a scab is all of our lives.

For all we know, the limited number of people we have spoken to since birth, may all actually be wrong, and that the management are perfectly entitled to bring in alternative solutions to their drivers withdrawing their labour in this reckless, foolhardy and sociopathic manner. If anybody fancies it wouldn't be unreasonable to go round to their houses, and throw bricks at the window, or worse.

I'm not taking sides in this at all.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fife-Hibee

Well surely they would have some sort of body or representative leading the strike. So confusion and crossed messages shouldn't be an issue. They could release an official statement. They don't have to go hugely in depth. Just give the public something.

Holding a strike shrouded in secrecy can only work in favour of the management they're stiking against.

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I think they have done that.

"Drivers threatened strike action over what they claim is "hostile" and "bullying" management at Lothian buses - as well as poor workplace relations"

That's the second paragraph from the first article you get when you Google "Lothian buses strike".

That's a quick summary for the public for the reasons they're striking. If you read a bit further then you see that it's not financially motivated as they reject a pay increase which backs that up.

So we know they're striking as a result of having a poor relationship with management that has led to a hostile environment with instances of bullying. I don't know why you'd expect to know more on the matter.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg

So you want details about what could be an international disciplinary matter? The information is out there but the company and union are correct not to openly discuss an on going investigation.

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Precisely! Beat me to it!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fife-Hibee

Well surely they would have some sort of body or representative leading the strike. So confusion and crossed messages shouldn't be an issue. They could release an official statement. They don't have to go hugely in depth. Just give the public something.

Holding a strike shrouded in secrecy can only work in favour of the management they're stiking against.

---

This answers all of your increasingly ridiculous grasping attempts at wilful contrarianism. For this post at least

https://unitetheunion.org/news-event...to-take-place/

I should really take Hibbyradge's advice and not feed the troll.

But I'm a full time union official and your absurd series of comments really riles me. You know nothing about this and are resistant to reasonable explanations from those who do. If I know nothing or little about a subject I either keep quiet or listen to those who have more knowledge or experience. You should do the same. But you don't. You want to appear at expert at every subject through continually asking questions already answered or playing some simplistic form of devil's advocate. I fear though that the more people who try to point this out, the more you are convinced that your points are right and valid. At some point in this thread you crossed the line from hubris to full blown narcissism.

People do not vote to take industrial action, with a high turnout and majority, for no reason. They lose pay and it creates a division between colleagues at work. Full detailed explanations of the issues concerned when parties are in dispute cannot and should not be aired in public.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lester B

This answers all of your increasingly ridiculous grasping attempts at wilful contrarianism. For this post at least

https://unitetheunion.org/news-event...to-take-place/

I should really take Hibbyradge's advice and not feed the troll.

But I'm a full time union official and your absurd series of comments really riles me. You know nothing about this and are resistant to reasonable explanations from those who do. If I know nothing or little about a subject I either keep quiet or listen to those who have more knowledge or experience. You should do the same. But you don't. You want to appear at expert at every subject through continually asking questions already answered or playing some simplistic form of devil's advocate. I fear though that the more people who try to point this out, the more you are convinced that your points are right and valid. At some point in this thread you crossed the line from hubris to full blown narcissism.

People do not vote to take industrial action, with a high turnout and majority, for no reason. They lose pay and it creates a division between colleagues at work. Full detailed explanations of the issues concerned when parties are in dispute cannot and should not be aired in public.

---

Narcissistic personality disorder (NPD) is a personality disorder with a long-term pattern of abnormal behavior characterised by exaggerated feelings of self-importance, excessive need for admiration, and a lack of empathy.

Donald Trump has this disorder.

Just saying.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lester B

This answers all of your increasingly ridiculous grasping attempts at wilful contrarianism. For this post at least

https://unitetheunion.org/news-event...to-take-place/

I should really take Hibbyradge's advice and not feed the troll.

But I'm a full time union official and your absurd series of comments really riles me. You know nothing about this and are resistant to reasonable explanations from those who do. If I know nothing or little about a subject I either keep quiet or listen to those who have more knowledge or experience. You should do the same. But you don't. You want to appear at expert at every subject through continually asking questions already answered or playing some simplistic form of devil's advocate. I fear though that the more people who try to point this out, the more you are convinced that your points are right and valid. At some point in this thread you crossed the line from hubris to full blown narcissism.

People do not vote to take industrial action, with a high turnout and majority, for no reason. They lose pay and it creates a division between colleagues at work. Full detailed explanations of the issues concerned when parties are in dispute cannot and should not be aired in public.

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You should look on the bright side. Every time he raises one of his "points", it's shot down in flames.

Although he says he isn't taking sides, his every utterance digs the management into a deeper hole. You can't buy publicity like that.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hibbyradge

Narcissistic personality disorder (NPD) is a personality disorder with a long-term pattern of abnormal behavior characterised by exaggerated feelings of self-importance, excessive need for admiration, and a lack of empathy.

---

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hibbyradge

Donald Trump has this disorder.

Just saying.

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Is Donald Trump from Leven? Who knew?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lester B

This answers all of your increasingly ridiculous grasping attempts at wilful contrarianism. For this post at least

https://unitetheunion.org/news-event...to-take-place/

I should really take Hibbyradge's advice and not feed the troll.

But I'm a full time union official and your absurd series of comments really riles me. You know nothing about this and are resistant to reasonable explanations from those who do. If I know nothing or little about a subject I either keep quiet or listen to those who have more knowledge or experience. You should do the same. But you don't. You want to appear at expert at every subject through continually asking questions already answered or playing some simplistic form of devil's advocate. I fear though that the more people who try to point this out, the more you are convinced that your points are right and valid. At some point in this thread you crossed the line from hubris to full blown narcissism.

People do not vote to take industrial action, with a high turnout and majority, for no reason. They lose pay and it creates a division between colleagues at work. Full detailed explanations of the issues concerned when parties are in dispute cannot and should not be aired in public.

---

Do you know what the drivers demands are? We know they’re being bullied but not what they’re striking for - do they want someone sacked?

Surely as a full time union official you’d go into a negotiation with an outcome in mind?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Danderhall Hibs

Do you know what the drivers demands are? We know they’re being bullied but not what they’re striking for - do they want someone sacked?

Surely as a full time union official you’d go into a negotiation with an outcome in mind?

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Apparently that isn't important information. We've all to get behind the drivers and support their strike action with no understanding of what the aim of the strike action is supposed to be.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Danderhall Hibs

Do you know what the drivers demands are? We know they’re being bullied but not what they’re striking for - do they want someone sacked?

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Danderhall Hibs

Surely as a full time union official you’d go into a negotiation with an outcome in mind?

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I don't think it is best practice to reveal your objectives, and fall back positions to the other side before going into a negotiation. But, broadly they have outlined where they want to be in the statement below.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fife-Hibee

Apparently that isn't important information. We've all to get behind the drivers and support their strike action with no understanding of what the aim of the strike action is supposed to be.

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They have made it clear what the strike is about.

Quote:

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The dispute stems from poor workplace relations and a hostile culture at Lothian Buses by management where procedural agreements have not been adhered to impacting directly on the terms and conditions of Unite’s membership. Previous talks in April at Acas broke down due to the failure by Lothian Buses management to seriously consider implementing remedial measures to improve the workplace culture.

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Why are you deliberately ignoring the answers to questions you ask?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fife-Hibee

Apparently that isn't important information. We've all to get behind the drivers and support their strike action with no understanding of what the aim of the strike action is supposed to be.

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Nobody is saying it isn't important, it's just highly likely confidential at this point and rightly so. Also it would be absolute madness to divulge a negotiating strategy and desired outcome at the table, never mind making it public information.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lester B

This answers all of your increasingly ridiculous grasping attempts at wilful contrarianism. For this post at least

https://unitetheunion.org/news-event...to-take-place/

I should really take Hibbyradge's advice and not feed the troll.

But I'm a full time union official and your absurd series of comments really riles me. You know nothing about this and are resistant to reasonable explanations from those who do. If I know nothing or little about a subject I either keep quiet or listen to those who have more knowledge or experience. You should do the same. But you don't. You want to appear at expert at every subject through continually asking questions already answered or playing some simplistic form of devil's advocate. I fear though that the more people who try to point this out, the more you are convinced that your points are right and valid. At some point in this thread you crossed the line from hubris to full blown narcissism.

People do not vote to take industrial action, with a high turnout and majority, for no reason. They lose pay and it creates a division between colleagues at work. Full detailed explanations of the issues concerned when parties are in dispute cannot and should not be aired in public.

---

He could always contact, Lyn Turner, for more information.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cataplana

They have made it clear what the strike is about.

Why are you deliberately ignoring the answers to questions you ask?

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Because it doesn't answer the question. What are they trying to achieve with this strike action?

Statements like "poor workplace relations" and "hostile culture by management" doesn't really tell us anything without any proper context.

What are they doing that is deemed "hostile"? How do you improve "workplace relations" in a job where you're working on your own at least several hours everyday?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cataplana

I don't think it is best practice to reveal your objectives, and fall back positions to the other side before going into a negotiation. But, broadly they have outlined where they want to be in the statement below.

They have made it clear what the strike is about.



Why are you deliberately ignoring the answers to questions you ask?

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:top marks Beaten to it and couldn't have put it better! :thumbsup:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fife-Hibee

Because it doesn't answer the question. What are they trying to achieve with this strike action?

Statements like "poor workplace relations" and "hostile culture by management" doesn't really tell us anything without any proper context.

What are they doing that is deemed "hostile"? How do you improve "workplace relations" in a job where you're working on your own at least several hours everyday?

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It does answer the question. You just don't like it. Or understand it.

What are they trying to achieve? They are asking management "to seriously consider implementing remedial measures to improve the workplace culture."

You want more info than is allowed by the very nature of workplace disputes. I've heard stuff from people wanting something along the lines of 'proper context' before. Invariably it's from someone who wants gossip or insider info. Not constructive.

Your final sentence is a new low in absurdity, even for you.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ronaldo7

He could always contact, Lyn Turner, for more information.

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He could but I suspect she has more important things to do than deal with crank calls. Message boards are more forgiving

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fife-Hibee

Because it doesn't answer the question. What are they trying to achieve with this strike action?

Statements like "poor workplace relations" and "hostile culture by management" doesn't really tell us anything without any proper context.

What are they doing that is deemed "hostile"? How do you improve "workplace relations" in a job where you're working on your own at least several hours everyday?

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It really isn't worth the effort answering your posts because you completely ignore any answer you get. Why do you feel entitled to get confidential information?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cataplana

I don't think it is best practice to reveal your objectives, and fall back positions to the other side before going into a negotiation. But, broadly they have outlined where they want to be in the statement below.

They have made it clear what the strike is about.



Why are you deliberately ignoring the answers to questions you ask?

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Cheers - that statement gives more clarity. Interesting that the union have missed the point as well by twice recommending their members accept the deal.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Danderhall Hibs

Cheers - that statement gives more clarity. Interesting that the union have missed the point as well by twice recommending their members accept the deal.

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I don't think they've necessarily missed the point, though they may have.

It can be a tactic to recommend a deal but to acknowledge after rejection of the deal, that feelings are running so high that the membership cannot accept the terms of the deal. The union then ballots at the request of the members within the bargaining unit and tries to use the ballot result to force the other side into serious consideration and/or discussion.

You'll hear a lot about strikes being announced and then cancelled after conciliation talks with ACAS. This I understand is the case in this dispute. It may yet not happen if talks can establish a way forward. Both sides are making the right noises in public about talking this out to avert the action and hopefully that's the case here

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fife-Hibee

Because it doesn't answer the question. What are they trying to achieve with this strike action?

Statements like "poor workplace relations" and "hostile culture by management" doesn't really tell us anything without any proper context.

What are they doing that is deemed "hostile"? How do you improve "workplace relations" in a job where you're working on your own at least several hours everyday?

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I think they tell us the union think relations should be improved, and that you as a (non) customer of LRT are being given the courtesy of a broad outline of why people are going on strike.

The fact that you haven't got the grace to recognise that and demand more information about what is essentially none of your business, is a matter for your definition of self respect.

I would imagine the workplace relations concern the relatii ship between the driver and their manager.

You are really transparent. Sad really.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pete

I wonder who will be manning this skeletal service.

Hell mend any drivers who cross a picket line. It wouldn’t be me anyway, not for all the tea in China.

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Nothing wrong with going into work if you want to.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Speedy

Nothing wrong with going into work if you want to.

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Unless you want sent to Coventry for the rest of your days, scabbing is fine. Just ask John Martin.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cataplana

Unless you want sent to Coventry for the rest of your days, scabbing is fine. Just ask John Martin.

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Let's hope a group concerned with bullying and toxic culture wouldn't resort to such actions.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Speedy

Let's hope a group concerned with bullying and toxic culture wouldn't resort to such actions.

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Let's also hope that members of the union respect the majority decision and uphold the principles of collective bargaining and action.

At the same time, let's also hope that non union members recognise that they too will benefit from the sacrifices of their colleagues, and are sensitive to the fact that their colleagues might not have much time for them later if they scab.

You have no right to bully somebody, but that doesn't mean you have to like them. Common sense, eh?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cataplana

Let's also hope that members of the union respect the majority decision and uphold the principles of collective bargaining and action.

At the same time, let's also hope that non union members recognise that they too will benefit from the sacrifices of their colleagues, and are sensitive to the fact that their colleagues might not have much time for them later if they scab.

You have no right to bully somebody, but that doesn't mean you have to like them. Common sense, eh?

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Last time we called a strike we had 98% union membership. Two guys were scared to defy management and crossed the picket line. They were met by complete silence. 8 years on they're still in the company and now active union members. There's many ways to skin a cat.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cataplana

Let's also hope that members of the union respect the majority decision and uphold the principles of collective bargaining and action.

At the same time, let's also hope that non union members recognise that they too will benefit from the sacrifices of their colleagues, and are sensitive to the fact that their colleagues might not have much time for them later if they scab.

You have no right to bully somebody, but that doesn't mean you have to like them. Common sense, eh?

---

If you really can’t afford to lose the money then going to work is reasonable. Let’s hope anyone in that position is not bullied or intimidated into strike action.

Worked for LRT for about 4 months in one of their garages. I have worked in many workshops, both at home and abroad and LRT is the hands down winner for the most obnoxious and divisive management style I have ever encountered. I would have expected them to have moved into more modern times concerning the way they run things, but maybe not. Maybe the drivers get run in a different style, I would certainly hope so.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Scouse Hibee

If you really can’t afford to lose the money then going to work is reasonable. Let’s hope anyone in that position is not bullied or intimidated into strike action.

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Hear hear, but bring part of a union, and the union votes to strike, it is not bullying but democracy.

Been on strike myself, our union was a small part of the workforce. I held no animosity to the rest who worked.

I’ll be driving about shouting scab at anyone breaking the strike.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by lord bunberry

I’ll be driving about shouting scab at anyone breaking the strike.

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Long live the free market

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HUTCHYHIBBY

I can only imagine they would've considered that before voicing an opinion.

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It was meant to be a lighthearted post, hence the smiley:aok:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by lord bunberry

I’ll be driving about shouting scab at anyone breaking the strike.

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I’ll be shouting “you profiteering bustards” at taxi drivers 😂

Maybe the drivers want more training on reading road signs:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotla...-fife-49166689

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Future17

Maybe the drivers want more training on reading road signs:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotla...-fife-49166689

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You're assuming that's the driver's fault but how do we know it wasn't mostly the bridge designer to blame?
Just trying to provide a bit of balance.

Is there any word on how the negotiations are going?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by lapsedhibee

You're assuming that's the driver's fault but how do we know it wasn't mostly the bridge designer to blame?
Just trying to provide a bit of balance.

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:hilarious

Quote:

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Originally Posted by lapsedhibee

You're assuming that's the driver's fault but how do we know it wasn't mostly the bridge designer to blame?
Just trying to provide a bit of balance.

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:tee hee: