I've never voted in this particular election as it's entirely irrelevant to my life. Coincidentally I happen to be abroad so am not bothering about it.
Enjoy the angst. 😁
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I've never voted in this particular election as it's entirely irrelevant to my life. Coincidentally I happen to be abroad so am not bothering about it.
Enjoy the angst. 😁
There’s literally no honour in the result of a corrupt referendum.Quote:
Originally Posted by Slavers
The most corruption to be seen has been the media and establishment trying to ignore and reverse the result of the referendum.Quote:
Originally Posted by Northernhibee
I didn't vote as it's all rather pathetic. We voted to leave, so leave. Naw, wait, we might have to vote again 'cause some people didn't like it and others claim that the public are too stupid to understand anything to do with the real world. Sick to death of politics and may actually never vote again.
I wonder what the electoral Commission will say about all the EU citizens who've been denied their vote.
United Kingdom democracy for you. Not fit for purpose.
Not the criminal investigation into how the Leave campaigns conducted themselves?Quote:
Originally Posted by Slavers
You also think that the media have tried to ignore the result of the referendum or Nigel Farage, publically educated and on the MEP “rich list” for external earnings isn’t a part of the elite?
The reason anyone voted is leave is 30 years of anti EU rhetoric.
The polling station at Gylemuir Primary was like a morgue when I went at 9pm.
Had a chuckle when I noticed that some cad had carefully folded down all the a-boards with the exception of the SNP's,,,, childish stuff but made me wonder if any voters rock up with no clue who they're voting for and end up going with the poster that catches their eye?
Did they fill in the correct paperwork though?Quote:
Originally Posted by ronaldo7
"Citizens of European countries must fill in a European Parliament voter registration form to ensure they have the right to cast their vote in the country of their choosing. This must be completed and returned 12 working days before the polls open."
https://www.itv.com/news/2019-05-23/...ling-stations/
Unless you can prove otherwise your making assumptions.
Maybe the Scottish Government should have made people aware.
Sweeping generalisations and assumptions leaves no room for discussion and are made by you to confirm your own bias.Quote:
Originally Posted by Northernhibee
The topic was debated to death prior to the referendum and to say that everyone who voted to leave is only down to ignorance is just deluded arrogance on your part.
Anyway I have gave my reason why I voted for the Brexit Party so to try ensure the democratic result is honoured.
If anything just so that future referendum results are honoured the same way, even if I don't like the result such a vote for Scottish Independence, that's how democracy should work.
Oh how strange it will be if and when Scotland votes for independence and the very same forces spring into action and conspire to reverse the result without it ever being implemented.
I do wonder how you would react to that?
You are aware it was an advisory referendum and non binding? There's no legal requirement for the result to be honoured. It was inherently different to the independence referendum.Quote:
Originally Posted by Slavers
If someone believes in Brexit, with a deal or otherwise, and votes accordingly today because of that then whilst I don't agree with them I understand their reasoning. On the other hand the argument about respecting democracy is a fundamentally flawed one imo. The only reason democracy works is because it recognises people can and do change their minds.
You guys are like the New Huns when Halliday put them ahead* 52% and you’ve ****ed it up. :greengrinQuote:
Originally Posted by Slavers
The good guys will win in the end. :wink:
* right down to the union jack underpants.
Well. At least one couple had tower hamlets council rattled that they checked cctv and allowed them to voteQuote:
Originally Posted by James310
I'd bet my mortgage they aren't the only ones who done everything right only to be denied
This was raised in UK gov as a potential big issue recently
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Bound to he some genuine errors, but let's not pretend it was some underhand tactic to deny people the chance to vote. I am guessing a large majority were denied a vote because they had not filled in the correct paperwork and were probably unaware they even had to.Quote:
Originally Posted by Callum_62
It was also local councils jobs to process the forms. Now who runs our local council?
Your argument does not stack up when you consider there was a general election and the two main parties had it on their manifesto that they would honor the referendum result.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pretty Boy
Furthermore democracy can only work when the initial referendum result is respected and then implemented. Once that decision has been give a chance to run, then yes after a period of time (one in a lifetime or just whenever the loosing side decides) a new vote can take place to rejoin. However if the first referendum result is never respected and never implemented then how can that be considered to be democratic? It's not no matter how much you wish it to be so.
Just be honest, you want the result overturned, you don't care that leave won the referendum, you just want to remain and no matter how that is achieved, even if that means risking the integrity of future democratic votes.
All I'm saying is be careful what you wish for because if this result is overturned without ever being implemented then for sure it will happen again and again and again... then what?
Reap what you sow.
Your assuming most people didn't fill in the correct paperwork.Quote:
Originally Posted by James310
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Whilst everyone and their dog nowadays seem to be claiming that x, y and z are "undemocratic", there is something a bit whiffy about those who could possibly have done more to help these people get their paperwork together to vote not being hugely bothered to do so.Quote:
Originally Posted by James310
Get your point here and agree in generalQuote:
Originally Posted by Slavers
However the picture that was painted in 2016 of what "leave" actually was is vastly different to what we are being offered now
Certainly a far cry from a no deal brexit
Ploughing on with that, IMHO also represents a betrayal of what was voted for in 2016
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Your assuming they did. I would bet my assumption is more accurate that yours when you read most people never had a clue they had to do this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Callum_62
Local Councils were responsible for processing the forms that were submitted, but looks like some may have messed that up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Smartie
You're on Twitter, check out #deniedmyvote hundreds if not thousands of people filled in paperwork correctly, and still denied. This was the UK governments responsibility and they've failed people who've lived here for years.Quote:
Originally Posted by James310
Stop trying to deflect it away from your party. They failed, accept it.
I'm not assuming anything about the majorityQuote:
Originally Posted by James310
If u want to shut down an argument by asking if you have proof of the official documents and if not then its not a valid point as its an assumption - The very same works in reverse
Some will have probably not filled in that form and lots will have
Lots will have had no problems but even some people missing out due to council errors isn't good enough
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"In order to take part in the European elections in the UK, EU citizens needed to have returned a UC1 form by 7 May to their local authority, declaring they would not vote in another EU member state.Quote:
Originally Posted by ronaldo7
Citizens of Ireland, Malta or Cyprus are eligible to vote in the UK for European elections without having to make this written declaration.
Many people took to Twitter to say they were not sent the form by their local authority or had received it just days before the deadline - and that councils then failed to process the forms in time. Some others said they were unaware of the UC1 process that would have allowed them the right to a vote."
Yes, look what people are saying! It is their local authority, who runs our local authority?
It would not be a voting day without another SNP grievance though would it.
You have the same mentality as those bigots in the orange lodge, just the another cheek of the same arse.Quote:
Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens
Yes council errors, but the blame was very much being placed elsewhere because it made another good grievance story, despite it being fake news.Quote:
Originally Posted by Callum_62
I disagree we voted to leave, as said before it was debated to death prior to the referendum and during the general election. We were told all the horror stories before the vote and leave still won.Quote:
Originally Posted by Callum_62
It's a mess I believe the EU offered us a Canada+ type deal that would have satisfied the Tory party but May refused as she wanted even closer ties to Europe. Hopefully we can get back to being offered that deal instead of no deal.
Your MP raised it in parliament the other day. You should be proud of her. 😂Quote:
Originally Posted by James310
The failure here is with the UK government in dragging their heels in saying whether we were actually voting in these elections. That's why the local councils couldn't get their paperwork sorted out, hence the people who work and have resided here for years couldn't vote.
This is on Theresa and co, and you know it, and trying to put it on the Scottish government as you have is absolutely trumpist.
Tory run Britain, a banana republic.
But you just cast a vote for a party that explicitly said a vote for them is a vote for a no deal brexit (or WTO as they call it)Quote:
Originally Posted by Slavers
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When did the SNP start running tower hamlets? [emoji23]Quote:
Originally Posted by James310
Anyway the main blame is the current UK gov and there failure to prepare properly and give councils the required time to organise themselves
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Spot on, but it will be difficult getting that through to some.Quote:
Originally Posted by Callum_62
The tin foil is strong. 😂
Ah so the local councils did have a part to play. Maybe they could have done better. Going by your original post it was WM and central government who were at fault for not sending and processing the forms. Although I suspect you probably never knew what a UC1 form was.Quote:
Originally Posted by ronaldo7
When did I say the SNP ran tower hamlets? 😕Quote:
Originally Posted by Callum_62
Yeah i know that, tbh my vote for the Brexit Party in Scotland does not count for much but id rather vote for them than any of the other party's.Quote:
Originally Posted by Callum_62
Your condescending style of posting is rather grating.Quote:
Originally Posted by James310
I've given you the reasons why I think our European neighbors didn't get to vote, and you've tried to deflect it to somehow be the fault of everyone bar the real culprits.
At no time did I ever say the UK Gov failed to send forms. You've just made that up.
This seems to be your MO
I'll leave you to continue deflecting away from your party, and your dear leader, as you sip your G&T in your union Jack under gadgeys.
Says the master of deflection. I've given you reasons why it might just not be the fault of big bad Westminster and maybe, just maybe, the local councils were at fault as well. I know that does not fit with your MO of Westminster being the root of all evil though so you will never accept it.Quote:
Originally Posted by ronaldo7
Tried to avoid posting on this thread as it has been somewhat dispiriting reading.
Nevertheless, the rather serious issue of EU nationals missing their chance to vote is serious, as it the issue of overseas UK nationals being deprived of theirs.
It’s sad if this is to be made a party political issue. For me it more reflects the rending effect of political instability in a way that hasn’t been experienced in a long time on these isles.
UK government, the Electoral Commission and local authorities all had some degree of culpability in allowing this to happen IMO.
Without a doubt, a large factor in this was the uncertainty about whether Euro elections would take place. By the same token, one of the key functions of local government is to manage and support the electoral process. And also plan for civil contingencies, of which this seems like an obvious one.
But local authorities, in England especially, but increasingly in Scotland, have seen their budgets slashed in the last number of years. English councils have seen a 50% cut since 2010/11. What needs to be borne in mind is that there are some things councils have to do, cannot afford not to do, have a statutory duty to do.
Child protection, critical social care for the vulnerable, registering and burying the dead, ensuring public safety through environmental health, refuse collection etc etc.
The knock-on effect is that everything else takes a bigger hit to find the savings. That’s why libraries close down, older peope’s lunch clubs disappear, why the verge at that tricky junction never gets trimmed back, why your bins go to every two weeks instead of one.
And before the services that affected day-to-day life were cut, there were culls within the internal structure of local authorities.
And guaranteed, teams that dealt with all sorts of things including planning applications and electoral registration would have been prime targets for downsizing, in a desperate attempt to balance the books.
The regime of austerity has led to that. The focus local government has had to make on critical services has led to that. The failure to ensure people were able to exercise their democratic rights in this election was abysmal but it has been in the post a long, long time.
It’s partly a consequence of austerity, partly a consequence of local government resources, partly a failing on the part of watchdogs and almost certainly a massive consequence of the ‘make it up as we go along’ approach to Brexit.
For me, it just reflects the sleepwalk of the referendum, where the complexity of what leaving meant was never adequately explained or presented and the idiocy of the arguments to leave were never adequately challenged.
If EU Nationals who had a right to vote in this election were turned away in error, then how can this vote be considered democratic? :confused:
Why is it ok for this to happen? Are we just going to meekly accept it, just as we meekly accept the way the UK treats Scotland?
If the Daily Mail’s poll is correct it reflects a disappointing result.
Pretty much my thinking word for word especially the last three words. :greengrinQuote:
Originally Posted by matty_f
Prove otherwise? This is a Hibs football forum. Not court.Quote:
Originally Posted by James310
Maybe the Westminster Government should have let all EU citizens in the U.K. know. That would show some sort competence.
J
OK il bite. What treatment of scotland do we 'meekly' accept?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fife-Hibee
Bull**** banana republic elections where citizens are disenfranchised for a start.Quote:
Originally Posted by makaveli1875
J
The way we were sidelined during the brexit negotiations?Quote:
Originally Posted by makaveli1875
The vow?
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How about being sidelined and ignored at every turn? Or having our own democratically elected represenatives scoffed at, when they're speaking at Westminster and being told to "go home". Or in some cases, told to "go and kill themselves"?Quote:
Originally Posted by makaveli1875
Our representatives in the EU Parliament never get spoken to or treated this way. Why is it acceptable at Westminster?
Our representatives go down to Westminster and rant like idiots, embarrass the nation and behave just like Farage does in the European Parliament. Perhaps if we elected some representatives that don't carry on like the monster raving loony party they'd be taken a bit more seriouslyQuote:
Originally Posted by Fife-Hibee
So it's Scotlands own fault that the UK gov takes very little interest in us because the standard of MP we vote for doesn't come up to the Westminster standard (scoff)Quote:
Originally Posted by makaveli1875
Strange,I thought this was a partnership of equals
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The SNP Westminster MPs forget they are there to represent ALL their constituents, not just the minority that voted for Independence.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fife-Hibee
I am not happy I never get the MP I vote for, it's terrible. I mean what's going on.
So your happy that Scotlands interests have been considered during Brexit?Quote:
Originally Posted by James310
That Westminster has taken into account our position?
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Scotland voted as part of the UK, unfortunately the UK voted to leave.Quote:
Originally Posted by Callum_62
Just like London voted to Remain but they also voted as part of the UK and have no special deal or arrangements.
A deal could have been done in Parliament a few months back but if I remember the SNP abstained from a Customs Union. Those 35 votes would have passed that motion.
Scotland and London are not like comparing England and Scotland.
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I suppose, London has more people and more wealth and creates lots more jobs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Callum_62
Oh dear.Quote:
Originally Posted by James310
That statement speaks volumes about you.
Is it false? Should London not get a special deal as well as Scotland then. If not, why not?Quote:
Originally Posted by Hibbyradge
We (Scotland) are in a family of equal nations according to the Conservative party.Quote:
Originally Posted by James310
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And we all had an equal vote in a UK wide referendum.Quote:
Originally Posted by Callum_62
I honestly didn't know who I was going to vote but knew who I wouldnt vote for. Made my decision in the booth.Quote:
Originally Posted by speedy_gonzales
When my sister was living and working on a Greek island she was given ballot papers for local council elections and it's actually staggering to think that a small island can organise people who are foreign resident and we can't. Greece is famous for being somewhat haphazard in it's governmental departments to say the least. When we can point at them and say "that's how it's done", then something is seriously amiss.
So now we are just ignored going forward [emoji106]Quote:
Originally Posted by James310
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Do you think that all those millions of people who bought PPI should not have been given their money back? They made their choice do they should respect the outcome whether they were lied to or not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Slavers
The 2016 referendum was even more misleading than the most ruthless PPI peddler.
If people so protective of our "democracy" why aren't you screaming from the rooftops about the lies and the breaking of rules?
Because, frankky, they're not. The only democracy they care about is the one where they win.
I don't think your at the wind up but it's clear to see that the only people saying that the voters were mislead are those that voted remain.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hibbyradge
Do you not think the very people you believe to have been mislead (the people who voted to leave), do you not think if they had been mislead or if they only based their vote about what was on the side of a bus, then right now they would be up in arms saying hold on a minute we've been lied too?
They the people who voted leave are not, they are not crying foul play, it's only remainers like you who are and are trying to play this card in a desperate attempt to get your own way and to ignore and reverse the result of the referendum.
If anything the desire for getting Brexit is getting stronger not weaker and all the mind control tactics from the media and their corrupt politicians still cannot change the peoples minds!
Much as I want to disagree with you, this post contains a number of very uncomfortable truths that are very hard to argue with.Quote:
Originally Posted by Slavers
Regardless of the lies on the bus, no-one was told the truth about the immediate damaging consequences of a no deal.Quote:
Originally Posted by Slavers
The leave campaigns just said that they'd had enough of"so called experts" and that they should be ignored.
You don't care about democracy. You care about the result.
At least admit it.
And if 30% if the nobbled electorate is "the will of the people", then democracy isn't what I thought it was.
PS. The people will be up in arms screaming that they'd been lied to when the economy comes crashing in, jobs go through the floor along with the pound, immigration stays at the same level and the wealthy in this country, like Farage, get even wealthier.
What benefits will leaving the EU bring? 3 years since the referendum and I'm still waiting to hear what the upside to the UK will be.Quote:
Originally Posted by Slavers
[emoji23] We should all doff our caps to our masters in London.Quote:
Originally Posted by James310
That statement sums you up. It’s all about our London rulers.
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That's not entirely true though, is it?Quote:
Originally Posted by Slavers
I listen to Radio 5 Live most mornings on my commute, and they have regular phone-ins about Brexit. They often seem to manage to dig up someone who voted leave and has now changed their mind as they feel they were indeed misled.
So are these people frauds? Liars? Or are Radio 5 deliberately seeking out callers from this seemingly non-existent demographic to further their biased agenda?
To suggest that this group of people don't exist is disingenuous, and laced with more than a little Farage-like rhetoric IMO.
I never said that, I asked if London should get a special deal as they also voted Remain and having more people and creating more wealth and jobs than Scotland then is the case for that not compelling? Feel free to answer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
I think it says more about the chip on your shoulder attitude to be honest though, fits in with your big bad England and Westminster narrative.
I’m a leave voter who would now vote remain. The reason I voted to leave was because we are disconnected from the EU in a democratic sense in that our media does not cover What is happening in Brussels every day, most of our mep’s were unknown to the population and we barely took part in EU elections at all (funnily enough that has changed somewhat these days). I wasn’t really against the EU project as such, just that we weren’t really taking part anyway so what was the point. When I’m in Ireland they are much more engaged in the whole thing. I’m comfortable with my vote and I knew why I was voting. Where I was mislead though was on the fact that we would have a very easily negotiated free trade deal by the time we left and that we would have other free trade deals all lined up for exit day. That has not happened and therefore I feel totally entitled to want another vote.Quote:
Originally Posted by McS****y
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They are to the type of Unionist who only thinks in terms of Britain as their country, Scotland a region within it. They might have a certain amount of regional pride attached to Scotland but there's no way they would regard it as an entity suitable (or in a lot of cases, capabale) of being an independent state. That covers pretty much all Tories and some Libs and Labs. Of course, as Mibbes Aye, is fond of reminding us, what is a nation if not an artificial construct? So choosing between Scotland or Britain is essentially an arbitrary thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Callum_62
The "family of nations" bull**** is just that, bull****. UK Tory and Labour politicians only use that kind of rhetoric if speaking to an exclusively Scottish audience. If they are not being forced to think hard about it then the words "country", "nation", "national" all apply exclusively to Britain/the UK.
London is the capital of England. England voted to leave.Quote:
Originally Posted by James310
Scotland has its own capital and its own government. It voted to remain.
You're comparing apples and friggin wheel bearings!
Was it a UK wide referendum where the total votes of the Leave and Remain votes were added together across the UK? We both know the answer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hibbyradge
Hmmm.Quote:
Originally Posted by James310
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...816019b92a.jpg
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Theresa May resigns as of 7th June
She actually broke down at the end.
A lot of hope for me in the Daily Mail's polling.Quote:
Originally Posted by Colr
Firstly, for voting in the Euro elections, 'only' 31% admitting to going for Nige. That's way, way less than the 50% or so who want Brexit, so that means 20% or so are not convinced by his 'message'.
Secondly, for voting intention in a General Election, Tories and Labour - the old politics - get 61% between them and Brexit Party - the new politics - gets 12%. Nige is not getting through to as many people as all that. Like in 2014, a huge surge in a protest vote for his then vehicle may not transform into any sort of lasting change in British politics.
So all can read.Quote:
Originally Posted by Callum_62
It really comes down to who the tories team up with. Can't see them warming to Labour tbh.Quote:
Originally Posted by lapsedhibee
Good.Quote:
Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns
She's been a total waste of space. Inflexible and downright stubborn.
Typical tory, really.
:agree:Quote:
Originally Posted by ronaldo7
How's sorting those "burning injustices" coming along? :rolleyes:
Are you looking forward to BoJo's (presumably brief) reign then?Quote:
Originally Posted by ronaldo7
Her words on grenfell were sickening...Good riddance but a good chance of worse to come.Quote:
Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens
They've not got anyone within the first twenty candidates that I'd touch with a barge pole.Quote:
Originally Posted by lapsedhibee
There is another way. 😂
What do you mean. She created plenty!Quote:
Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens
:greengrinQuote:
Originally Posted by Colr
I suppose the silver lining to the Brexit cloud is it's largely stopped the Tories having time to **** anything else up. Even Chris Grayling.
How convenient, starts to bubble as the last words of her prepared speech are uttered. Call me a sceptic but it was all staged.Quote:
Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns
If we want to make sure Brexit doesn't happen then Grayling becoming PM is the best thing that could happen. He ****s up literally everything he touches so Article 50 would be revoked within a week whilst he sat trying to remember his own name and wondering what's going on.Quote:
Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens
We’re constantly told that we’re part of a union of equals, but Scotland isn’t an equal partner, we’re a junior partner. We have to accept whatever England votes for.Quote:
Originally Posted by makaveli1875
Naw, I think she realised that it was the end of her meal ticket.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg
Parties will have a better idea of how voting went and it is possible that no tories will be going to Brussels.
Basically she was 2-0 up and she ****ed it up.
I’ve gone independent for local and green European (West of Ireland)..
She’s not that good an actress.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg
We also thought she couldn't dance. :wink:Quote:
Originally Posted by Stonewall
We have invented a new form of democracy. Elective anarchy!!Quote:
Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens
Less like that under New Labour but the current lot have blown that up!!Quote:
Originally Posted by lord bunberry
Breaking down as she croaks about the country she loves yet everything she did was about her party. She will go down in history as one of the most incompetent PM’s ever.Quote:
Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns
A proportionally equal partner that is a 10th the size, no? :dunno:Quote:
Originally Posted by lord bunberry
Crying for herself. Not a tear for the Grenfell victims, disabled and homeless. Hostile environment to hard working immigrants. Windrush scandal. Bangs on about ending Austerity! Your party used Austerity as a tool to dismantle the welfare state.Quote:
Originally Posted by marinello59
Not one tear until she loses her power. Crying out of frustration of her own failed legacy. Crocodile tears.
J
Proportionally equal isn’t equal. Small nations in the EU are equal no matter what their population is. The frustration that Scotland can decide one thing, but the UK can just ignore it is for most people the reason for supporting independence. We’re not a region of the UK we’re a country, and the empty rhetoric from Westminster about us being equal partners and the vow that was made before the independence referendum about a near federal UK has only gone on to reinforce the view of being ignored.Quote:
Originally Posted by danhibees1875
How many MEPs does Scotland have? 6 population 5 millionQuote:
Originally Posted by lord bunberry
How many MEPs does Malta have? 6 population 460,000
An independent Scotland in Europe would have 13 MEPs based on population. Think we are equal in the UK, not in the slightest.
Proportionally equal is being equal though, that's how things work. Unless you think Scotland should have a proportionally 10x stronger say in things in order to be considered equal. Different countries in the EU get a different number of MEPs :confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by lord bunberry
I think "Scots decide one thing and UK just ignore it" isn't necessarily how it works either. It could just as easily work the other way, it's just 10x less likely. It's not an active decision to ignore Scottish votes, there's just not as many of them.
So you are happy with Malta having the same number of MEPs as Scotland with a 10th of the population?Quote:
Originally Posted by danhibees1875
Yes, but they also get direct representation on the Council which is considerably more powerful. They even get a veto on particularly important things.Quote:
Originally Posted by danhibees1875
The configuration of the UK isn't particularly unfair when you consider what it actually is: a unitary state with a certain amount of asymmetric regional devolution. It's the disingenuous bull**** from Unionism to try and pretend it's something else that really grates.
It’s not me that’s saying Scotland should have 10x as much say as we deserve. We are constantly told by unionist politicians that Scotland is an equal member of the UK. We’re not equal we’re as you say proportionally equal, which is utterly meaningless when important decisions need to be taken. We don’t have a veto on anything and we rarely get the government we vote for.Quote:
Originally Posted by danhibees1875
Yes it’s just another example of how we lose by being part of an unequal union.Quote:
Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns