Generic Sevco / Rangers meltdown thread

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Originally Posted by ancienthibby

Surely either Ticketus was completely out-foxed by an outsider (CW) who owned not one share in RFC at the time and/or someone inside RFC was compliant to at least one of these outside parties.:devil:

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Seems like it. It's all getting very murky... I love it.

But, if CW's plan was to liquidate RFC because of the Big tax case before he ran out of money, why didnt he just concede it?

If CW is not owed anything, and ticketus are not owed anything (yet, being as they hold an 'asset' and not a debt. is this right?) then the taxman is the major creditor (even before the big tax case outcome, right?) surely this makes a CVA unlikely?

Also, if Rangers win the big tax case they can trade their way out of administration, albeit with reduced income from season tickets, much reduced wage bill and paying off their bills as they go. Win for everyone else in the SPL?

Or, they lose the tax case and liquidation is a racing certainty right? with no securities over Ibrox, Murray Park or anything else (except the catering equipment :greengrin ) CW loses control of Rangers, potential for fraud cases, loads of muck raking and back biting from all involved. Ticketus become a creditor to be paid out of assets sold, along with HMRC + other small change (relatively) creditors. Ibrox and Murray park 'have' to be sold to highest bidder not neccessarily NewHun.co. Win, Win for everyone right?

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Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

The interesting point for me in that (other than that I am charging too little :greengrin) is the mention of Close Brothers, a finance company.

When I dug into the question of who had what security, the only charge mentioned at Companies House was one in favour of Close Brothers. It seems that they have security over the catering equipment at Ibrox.

How much is a pie-warmer worth?

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from the daily ******

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Close Brothers board member Ray Greenshields is chairman of a firm called Octopus VCT3, part of the company who own Ticketus.

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Originally Posted by jgl07

The only flaw in all of the scenarios is the Ticketus deal. They will be looking for much of the season ticket income from Rangers for the next four years in the vent that the club continues or come after Whyte in the event that it does not.

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No problem for Ticketus though. White claimed to have 'underwritten' the deal from his own wealth. Or should that be from the personal wealth of his clients in his Bournemouth stock rocking company ?

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Originally Posted by johnbc70

Surely it is fraud to buy a company with its own assets, that is what he has done?

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Not much of a crime, that. Isn't it what everyone who takes out a mortgage to buy a house does? Buy the house, using the house to get the money? :dunno:

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Originally Posted by reallapsedhibee

Not much of a crime, that. Isn't it what everyone who takes out a mortgage to buy a house does? Buy the house, using the house to get the money? :dunno:

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Except banks don't secure mortgages against houses that about to collapse.

More murky revelations in the Daily Not-So-Ranger today:

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/ed...6908-23759285/

And sources close to the investigations believe there will be more revelations as the layers are peeled away from Whyte’s regime.

It’s understood administrators Paul Clark and David Whitehouse, and officials from HMRC, are shocked by some of the details already uncovered.

They are determined to get to the truth behind Rangers’ slide into administration, although it will take some time to follow all the paper trails.

Whyte, Betts and Gary Withey, who is still Rangers’ company secretary, will be asked to account for every penny.

Betts, 49, is credited with more than 30 years’ experience in banking and finance, and is a specialist in VAT and PAYE problems.

He formed Primary Asset Finance in 2005. The firm’s website boasted of providing “hassle-free solutions” and had a section titled “HMRC Arrears/Problems.

The site was shut down the day after Rangers went into administration.

Primary said on the website that they were sponsored by Close Brothers, a finance company.

Close Brothers board member Ray Greenshields is chairman of a firm called Octopus VCT3, part of the company who own Ticketus

The whole thing stinks - and I hope every single detail is uncovered and reported on.

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Originally Posted by jonty

Are we likely to see any of it anyway?
the only way they'll generate enough to pay off the tax is if they're allowed ot continue in top flight football.
If they're allowed to continue in top flight football, then what message does that send to other football clubs?

"Overspend, dont pay your taxes? we'll let you pay it up over x years"

Get rid of them and set an example.

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How much money would be made if they sold everything, land players, the lot? I would imagine they would make quite a bit of money.

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Originally Posted by Peevemor

But it's been reported that Whyte showed Murray the balance in his account in order to get approval for the takeover.

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I thought the money was in a solicitor's account and was conditional on Whyte buying rangers, but that was then the balance which he showed the club and which he represented as his own money.

SFA appoint Panel of inquiry to report within two weeks:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/17110781

Probably all Rainchurs supporters!

Also reported that one Brian Kennedy (remember him?) of Sale Sharks has expressed in acquiring RFC from the admins!

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Originally Posted by hibs13681

How much money would be made if they sold everything, land players, the lot? I would imagine they would make quite a bit of money.

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That would depend on who owns it.
If HMRC can claim it and sell it on, I doubt they'd get the amount they're due.
Who'd want a listed building in Govan, except a football team?

The housing market is still on it's arse - so they'd not get a lot for murray park (apart from the farmer, or golf club next door).
Opened 11 years ago (wikipedia is great :rolleyes:) it's hardly state of the art (East mains looks a lot bigger, for a start).

Could hibs.net club together and buy it :greengrin


They might get something from a players firesale, but they'd all have to move down south or abroad - no-one up here would pay their wages.
I seriously doubt they'd get anything near 45 million.

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Originally Posted by Peevemor

Except banks don't secure mortgages against houses that about to collapse.

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Where have you been the last few years? :greengrin

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Originally Posted by Andy74

Where have you been the last few years? :greengrin

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Under a sturdy table with a stock of tinned food.

Some belters from Whyte

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Craig Whyte statement on #Rangers: "I'm on the hook with Ticketus for 27.5m pounds in guarantees and cash"

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Craig Whyte on #Rangers: Any suggestion that I've been involved in illegal activity is "clearly ludicrous"

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Craig Whyte statement on #Rangers: "I regret not making the Ticketus arrangements more transparent"

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Craig Whyte statement on #Rangers: if he regains control, he'll consider giving a majority stake to a supporters' foundation.

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Craig Whyte statement on #Rangers: if HMRC was doing deals on tax with big companies like Vodafone, why so inflexible over Rangers?

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Originally Posted by ancienthibby

Also reported that one Brian Kennedy (remember him?) of Sale Sharks has expressed in acquiring RFC from the admins!

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Ah yes, good old Mr Kennedy the double glazing salesman, ex-Stockport County owner and one time suitor for our own esteemed institution.

After what he did to Stockport, he and Craig Whyte would make good bedfellows.

http://news.stv.tv/scotland/west-cen...fund-takeover/

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"Any suggestion that I am trying to make a fast buck or have indulged in illegal manoeuvring is clearly ludicrous."

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:faf:

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Originally Posted by jonty

http://news.stv.tv/scotland/west-cen...fund-takeover/


:faf:

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The guy is starting to sound like Mad Vlad.

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Originally Posted by jonty

http://news.stv.tv/scotland/west-cen...fund-takeover/


:faf:

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So how can someone (CW) who was not a shareholder and not a director of RFC make a financial arrangement (that was concluded!) with an outside company to factor the assets (ST income) of RFC to another party??:rolleyes:

CWG, CavG where are you?? Oh, and SDM MUST have known!

Administrators statement............

http://www.rangers.co.uk/news/footba...rticle/2618921

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Originally Posted by ancienthibby

So how can someone (CW) who was not a shareholder and not a director of RFC make a financial arrangement (that was concluded!) with an outside company to factor the assets (ST income) of RFC to another party??:rolleyes:

CWG, CavG where are you?? Oh, and SDM MUST have known!

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I'm here :greengrin... just got back in for my daily fix of Hun..The Movie.

My position, m'lud, remains unchanged from earlier today. SDM must have known, and allowed the Ticketus/CW/Lloyds settlement to happen just to allow him to get out.

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Originally Posted by Spike Mandela

Administrators statement............

http://www.rangers.co.uk/news/footba...rticle/2618921

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In other words, they are as confused (or refusing to reveal what they really know) as everyone else!:faf:

You couldnae make this up!

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Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

I'm here :greengrin... just got back in for my daily fix of Hun..The Movie.

My position, m'lud, remains unchanged from earlier today. SDM must have known, and allowed the Ticketus/CW/Lloyds settlement to happen just to allow him to get out.

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Keep this up, young man, and Lord Nimmo Smith will be calling you to his inquiry!:greengrin

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Originally Posted by jonty

http://news.stv.tv/scotland/west-cen...fund-takeover/


:faf:

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The most interesting and humourous part of his statement is the unwillingness of HMRC to budge one inch and even consider some kind of payment plan. It seems they want it all, and at once. :agree:

That OF firm game next month might not be an issue. I'm thinking scenes of mass grief as the bulldozers level Ibrox. One can hope. :cb

Compare todays Whyte statement with his statement below on 31st Jan. He is flailing from one lie to another......

http://videocelts.com/2012/01/blogs/...e-daily-record

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Originally Posted by Benny Brazil

The guy is starting to sound like Mad Vlad.

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That's grossly unfair...

to Romanov.

:duck:

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Originally Posted by Part/Time Supporter

That's grossly unfair...

to Romanov.

:duck:

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Vlad was just the warm-up act for this guy. It gets better by the day. :lolrangers:

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Originally Posted by green glory

The most interesting and humourous part of his statement is the unwillingness of HMRC to budge one inch and even consider some kind of payment plan. It seems they want it all, and at once. :agree:

That OF firm game next month might not be an issue. I'm thinking scenes of mass grief as the bulldozers level Ibrox. One can hope. :cb

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I think they will move. They are just not moving yet. They will wait until the Tribunal has made up its mind.

I have had the conversation with HMRC many tmes where the words "blood" and "stone" have been used. They are much more commercially aware than they used to be.

Quite how much they will move remains to be seen. I have never seen a payment plan of (as has been suggested) ten years, but then I have never seen a liability of this sum where there are insufficient assets to cover it, but plenty potential future income.

craig shy*e is madder than a box of frogs





little :fibber: :lolrangers: weasel

Beeb Radio reporting live that CW had offered to pay the back PAYE/NIC taxes at £500k a month and the £48million (or so) EBT tax problem at £2 million a year.:faf:

Ma ribs are burstin'

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Originally Posted by ancienthibby

Beeb Radio reporting live that CW had offered to pay the back PAYE/NIC taxes at £500k a month and the £48million (or so) EBT tax problem at £2 million a year.:faf:

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Probably not far from what they will have to agree if they want to see any of it.

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Originally Posted by ancienthibby

Beeb Radio reporting live that CW had offered to pay the back PAYE/NIC taxes at £500k a month and the £48million (or so) EBT tax problem at £2 million a year.:faf:

Ma ribs are burstin'

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So £8m a year in back taxes, plus all the other running costs against a back drop of a £10m shortfall already. In essence he thinks he could find £18m per year from their current turnover. Nuts.

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Originally Posted by Andy74

Probably not far from what they will have to agree if they want to see any of it.

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CW has already admitted that (before the crisis) they (RFC) already had a £10 million hole in their annual cash flow!!:na na:

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Originally Posted by PaulSmith

So £8m a year in back taxes, plus all the other running costs against a back drop of a £10m shortfall already. In essence he thinks he could find £18m per year from their current turnover. Nuts.

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Don't forget the season ticket money going out the door to Ticketus.

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Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

I think they will move. They are just not moving yet. They will wait until the Tribunal has made up its mind.

I have had the conversation with HMRC many tmes where the words "blood" and "stone" have been used. They are much more commercially aware than they used to be.

Quite how much they will move remains to be seen. I have never seen a payment plan of (as has been suggested) ten years, but then I have never seen a liability of this sum where there are insufficient assets to cover it, but plenty potential future income.

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Thing for HMRC is if they do budge, a large number of other teams will use administration as a tax dodge. They have an eye on the bigger picture and it doesn#t involve Rangers :wink:

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Originally Posted by richard_pitts

Thing for HMRC is if they do budge, a large number of other teams will use administration as a tax dodge. They have an eye on the bigger picture and it doesn#t involve Rangers :wink:

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Oh, agreed. The Rangers case, in terms of EBT's and how much HMRC are willing to settle for, is critical to their treatment of other clubs in the same boat (or submarine:greengrin). Pretty soon, there will be many club chairmen and HMRC executives reaching for either the champagne or the bottle of pills.

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Originally Posted by Peevemor

Except banks don't secure mortgages against houses that about to collapse.

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Actually they did. That's largely why we've had a recession.

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Originally Posted by Seveno

Don't forget the season ticket money going out the door to Ticketus.

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They'll need a full house every time they're at home and some kind of European run to be able to do that.

I think until now, I've always thought they'll limp on. Now though, I'm not so sure...

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Originally Posted by steakbake

They'll need a full house every time they're at home and some kind of European run to be able to do that.

I think until now, I've always thought they'll limp on. Now though, I'm not so sure...

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And with a much reduced players budget, performances will be poorer and we know what the Hun fans do when that happens.

Richard Gordon as just said that the Ticketus deal amounts to 23,000 to 27,000 seats per season. Not one penny to Rangers until the crowd exceeds those figures.

I wonder if he sold the pies in advance as well ? :cb

What if the huns don't sell any season tickets and only sell on a match to match basis. Do Ticketus only get their dabs on season ticket money or do they get a slice of all ticket sales?

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Originally Posted by Hiberlin

What if the huns don't sell any season tickets and only sell on a match to match basis. Do Ticketus only get their dabs on season ticket money or do they get a slice of all ticket sales?

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In one of CW's pronouncements today..... not that I am inclined to believe him :greengrin... he said that he had "guaranteed" the sales to the tune of £23.5m. I guess he means he has underwritten them.

Which means, if the fans want to get some sort of revenge on him..... they should boycott all ST sales. That would sting....

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Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

In one of CW's pronouncements today..... not that I am inclined to believe him :greengrin... he said that he had "guaranteed" the sales to the tune of £23.5m. I guess he means he has underwritten them.

Which means, if the fans want to get some sort of revenge on him..... they should boycott all ST sales. That would sting....

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Was sort of what I was thinking...shhhhh! :o)

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Originally Posted by jgl07

It appears that the £18 million in cash from Ticketus was held in a solicitors client account with the instruction that it should not be released until Whyte took over Rangers. The deposit was sufficient to confirm to David Murray and Lloyds Bank Group that Whyte had the cash to take over the club. Whyte then paid £1 to Murray and the sale went through. Presumably the funds were then released to pay off Lloyds.

Whyte now had ownership of Rangers but lacked any working capital. He upped the advance sale to Ticketus from £18 to £24 million and also failed to pass on PAYE and National Insurance payments deducted from employees wages to HMRC and used the £7 million as working capital to finance the operation of the club. That was until the club was placed in administration with HMSO on his traill.

Whyte was now the preferred creditor with first call on the club's tangible assets (Ibrox and Murray Park) without putting in any of his own money (in the unlikely event that he has any).

In the event of Rangers winning the 'big tax case', the club emerges from administration debt free with Whyte in ownership. In the event that they lose the 'big tax case', Rangers are liquidated and Whyte ends up with Ibrox and Murray Park with all other creditors screwed. He can then start a debt free Pheonix and try and talk his way back into the SFA and SPL. Alternatively he can sell the real estate for development and pocket the cash leaving Ticketus to whistle for their £24 million in advance ticket sales for a liquidated club.

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This could be the final nail in the coffin. HMRC are pretty hard headed and notoriously unwilling to concede ground or negotiate, but Her Majesty's Stationery Office make the tax boys look like pussycats. Someone's going to get their jotters.

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Originally Posted by Seveno

Richard Gordon as just said that the Ticketus deal amounts to 23,000 to 27,000 seats per season. Not one penny to Rangers until the crowd exceeds those figures.

I wonder if he sold the pies in advance as well ? :cb

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The catering equipment is the subject of a security :greengrin

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Originally Posted by One Day Soon

This could be the final nail in the coffin. HMRC are pretty hard headed and notoriously unwilling to concede ground or negotiate, but Her Majesty's Stationery Office make the tax boys look like pussycats. Someone's going to get their jotters.

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Aye, its a difficult paper trail they have to follow. Who is the ruler? Are the accounts set square? Do the administrators have the correct moral compass to guide them through, or is all this type of work just their staple diet? The good thing is that the Huns'll get a good ream.

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Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

The catering equipment is the subject of a security :greengrin

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To a company with a director who is also on the board of the parent company of ticketus. So in essence whyte has also sold the pies :greengrin

So we know he lied when he originally denied he used the Ticketus money to buy the club, today he has admitted he did indeed use that money. Interview on Sky has said that is illegal to buy a business using the assets of that business, it is a breach of the Finance Assistance Rules.

I think it comes down to the fact that he paid £1 for the club, therefore he bought the club fair and square for £1 from SDM. SDM however would only sell him the club on the basis he proved his own wealth by depositing £18M into an account, this was done with the Ticketus money but SDM must have been under the impression it was his own money so he agreed to sell, when infact as we now know it was Rangers own season ticket money that was mortgaged to Ticketus. So SDM is the fool in this case as he sold him the club thinking he has his own wealth.

So looks like he bought the club in a fair manner, he has fooled SDM though as the money was not his in that account it was Rangers own money. So I think he has done nothing wrong in the actual buying of the club? The non payment of tax and national insurance etc is another matter though.

Its great entertainment though!

Can someone explain to me why Ticketus are due all the money. If all their other creditors have to take a hit and are only paid pennies for pounds why don't Ticketus? Also, if they did go into liquidation how do Ticketus get the money back :confused:.

Lastly, why do people keep going on about Rangers selling Murray Park? Does Murray not actually own it and not Rangers?

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Originally Posted by johnbc70

So we know he lied when he originally denied he used the Ticketus money to buy the club, today he has admitted he did indeed use that money. Interview on Sky has said that is illegal to buy a business using the assets of that business, it is a breach of the Finance Assistance Rules.

I think it comes down to the fact that he paid £1 for the club, therefore he bought the club fair and square for £1 from SDM. SDM however would only sell him the club on the basis he proved his own wealth by depositing £18M into an account, this was done with the Ticketus money but SDM must have been under the impression it was his own money so he agreed to sell, when infact as we now know it was Rangers own season ticket money that was mortgaged to Ticketus. So SDM is the fool in this case as he sold him the club thinking he has his own wealth.

So looks like he bought the club in a fair manner, he has fooled SDM though as the money was not his in that account it was Rangers own money. So I think he has done nothing wrong in the actual buying of the club? The non payment of tax and national insurance etc is another matter though.

Its great entertainment though!

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You really think so? :wink:

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Originally Posted by johnbc70

So we know he lied when he originally denied he used the Ticketus money to buy the club, today he has admitted he did indeed use that money. Interview on Sky has said that is illegal to buy a business using the assets of that business, it is a breach of the Finance Assistance Rules.

I think it comes down to the fact that he paid £1 for the club, therefore he bought the club fair and square for £1 from SDM. SDM however would only sell him the club on the basis he proved his own wealth by depositing £18M into an account, this was done with the Ticketus money but SDM must have been under the impression it was his own money so he agreed to sell, when infact as we now know it was Rangers own season ticket money that was mortgaged to Ticketus. So SDM is the fool in this case as he sold him the club thinking he has his own wealth.

So looks like he bought the club in a fair manner, he has fooled SDM though as the money was not his in that account it was Rangers own money. So I think he has done nothing wrong in the actual buying of the club? The non payment of tax and national insurance etc is another matter though.

Its great entertainment though!

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That's how I see it too, John!

What remains amazing is that SDM apparently (:faf:) did not know his own company assets were being used by an unconnected outside party to pay-off bank debts that he could not!!

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Originally Posted by DH1875

Can someone explain to me why Ticketus are due all the money. If all their other creditors have to take a hit and are only paid pennies for pounds why don't Ticketus? Also, if they did go into liquidation how do Ticketus get the money back :confused:.

Lastly, why do people keep going on about Rangers selling Murray Park? Does Murray not actually own it and not Rangers?

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Rangers aren't due anything to Ticketus.

Ticketus bought season tickets for the next 4 years (3 if you believe CW). They will then sell these to supporters, at a profit.

As for the liquidation question.... if these tickets are worthless in a future RFC scenario, they appear to have been underwritten by CW.

I thought RFC owns MP.... the admins seem to think so, too.

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Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

You really think so? :wink:

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He will claim not to know where it came from, but yes he more than likely knew and turned a blind eye or did not care where it came from.

I note according to the BBC a Hibs supporter is interested in Rangers. One Brian Kennedy!

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Originally Posted by johnbc70

He will claim not to know where it came from, but yes he more than likely knew and turned a blind eye or did not care where it came from.

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:agree:

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Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

Rangers aren't due anything to Ticketus.Ticketus bought season tickets for the next 4 years (3 if you believe CW). They will then sell these to supporters, at a profit.As for the liquidation question.... if these tickets are worthless in a future RFC scenario, they appear to have been underwritten by CW.

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Aye, cause Whytes got the money for 80,000 season tickets at £500 a pop :fibber:.

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Originally Posted by oregonhibby

I note according to the BBC a Hibs supporter is interested in Rangers. One Brian Kennedy!

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Indeed! Maybe he could do a Stockport County on them :greengrin

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Originally Posted by DH1875

Aye, cause Whytes got the money for 80,000 season tickets at £500 a pop :fibber:.

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Well, if he is giving Ticketus a guarantee, you would expect them to do some due diligence on him.

Just like SDM did :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

Rangers aren't due anything to Ticketus.

Ticketus bought season tickets for the next 4 years (3 if you believe CW). They will then sell these to supporters, at a profit.

As for the liquidation question.... if these tickets are worthless in a future RFC scenario, they appear to have been underwritten by CW.

I thought RFC owns MP.... the admins seem to think so, too.

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Seems legit to me :tee hee:

http://verydemotivational.files.word...ms-legit31.jpg

Apparently Rangers owned 16 shares in Arsenal. They probably held historical significance for the club.

Whyte sold them in December.

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Originally Posted by johnbc70

So we know he lied when he originally denied he used the Ticketus money to buy the club, today he has admitted he did indeed use that money. Interview on Sky has said that is illegal to buy a business using the assets of that business, it is a breach of the Finance Assistance Rules.

I think it comes down to the fact that he paid £1 for the club, therefore he bought the club fair and square for £1 from SDM. SDM however would only sell him the club on the basis he proved his own wealth by depositing £18M into an account, this was done with the Ticketus money but SDM must have been under the impression it was his own money so he agreed to sell, when infact as we now know it was Rangers own season ticket money that was mortgaged to Ticketus. So SDM is the fool in this case as he sold him the club thinking he has his own wealth.

So looks like he bought the club in a fair manner, he has fooled SDM though as the money was not his in that account it was Rangers own money. So I think he has done nothing wrong in the actual buying of the club? The non payment of tax and national insurance etc is another matter though.

Its great entertainment though!

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That's how it looks. Whyte has invested the princely sum of wan poon in Rangers :greengrin. He's lied through his teeth about the funding of the payment to Lloyds and has been found out. He must have thought he'd make an absolute killing, potentially making millions for a one pound stake if the club comes out of administration debt free. And if they're liquidated, wouldn't Ibrox and other assets be his to sell off? A con man.

Tom English dissects the Whyte statement for the fabric of lies it is, great stuff...............

http://www.scotsman.com/sport/footba...ions_1_2130718

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Originally Posted by Spike Mandela

Tom English dissects the Whyte statement for the fabric of lies it is, great stuff...............

http://www.scotsman.com/sport/footba...ions_1_2130718

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Thanks for the link. I defy anyone to read that without forming a grin as wide as the Forth Bridge :lolrangers:

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Originally Posted by Spike Mandela

Tom English dissects the Whyte statement for the fabric of lies it is, great stuff...............

http://www.scotsman.com/sport/footba...ions_1_2130718

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Hell hath no fury like a second rate hack scorned. English must feel a right tit given the amount of Whyte's PR he regurgitated last year. :wink:

Rule Britannia!
Craig Whyte smiles and waves
Britain never, never, never
Shall get paid!

Apparently CW has flogged the shares Rangers have held in Arsenal since the 1930's for 200 grand. The Teddy Bears on Verminmedia are very non-plussed indeed. Ho Ho.

Ouch! :)

** Rangers 'treated fairly' over tax **
The tax authorities deny claims that Rangers Football Club is being treated unfairly over its tax debts.
< http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotlan...-west-17127983 >


Sent from another universe!

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Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens

Hell hath no fury like a second rate hack scorned. English must feel a right tit given the amount of Whyte's PR he regurgitated last year. :wink:

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Correct, Whyte had him in his pocket for a while. This is the start of some decent revenge mind you:agree:
A worthwhile read.

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Originally Posted by VivaPalmeiras

Rule Britannia!
Craig Whyte smiles and waves
Britain never, never, never
Shall get paid!

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If Rangers get away with this the song will become:

Rule Britannia,
Britannia waives the rules

I had a read of a couple of Hun forums earlier, and it's like witnessing the collapse of the Third Reich :lolrangers:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotlan...-west-17128997

Can Craig Whyte account for his whereabouts?

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Originally Posted by green glory

Apparently CW has flogged the shares Rangers have held in Arsenal since the 1930's for 200 grand. The Teddy Bears on Verminmedia are very non-plussed indeed. Ho Ho.

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Actually, on a moral level, this is almost as bad as it gets for me. I struggle to find sympathy for the "wee arra people" mentality, but this shares things harks back to the days when there was a bit of dignity and morality about football.

CW really has sold off part of the club's heritage here, a part that they should feel proud of.

The ironic thing is that, according to Keith Jackson, he paid the cash into his stockbroking firm's account......

..............which has been frozen by the FSA. :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Spike Mandela

Tom English dissects the Whyte statement for the fabric of lies it is, great stuff...............

http://www.scotsman.com/sport/footba...ions_1_2130718

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I wouldn't particularly call it great....it borders on amateurish in my opinion. If someone had posted it on here as there own opinions/post then that would have been good, but for a 'journo' to pass that off as an article for a news website is pretty poor.

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Originally Posted by green glory

Apparently CW has flogged the shares Rangers have held in Arsenal since the 1930's for 200 grand. The Teddy Bears on Verminmedia are very non-plussed indeed. Ho Ho.

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Im surprised that football clubs are allowed to hold shares in other clubs , does anyone know of any other examples of this?

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Originally Posted by SunnyLeith

Im surprised that football clubs are allowed to hold shares in other clubs , does anyone know of any other examples of this?

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There is probably a limit.

Rangers only had 22 shares in the Arse, and it was symbolic rather than commercial.

A bit like ma shares in Hubz...

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Originally Posted by SunnyLeith

Im surprised that football clubs are allowed to hold shares in other clubs , does anyone know of any other examples of this?

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It goes back more than 100 years though, so I'd imagine there's been some changes in the meantime.

If someone offered me £14,000 for each of my Hibs shares, I might just be tempted to sell one!:greengrin

On another matter, 'one booted-outed by CW' director, Dave King, seen leaving Castle Greyskull accompanied by the pie-munching manager.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/scotland/17130753

It's been a slow day for soap opera developments!:greengrin

News coming through that the SPL are going to investigate Rangers for alleged sectarian chanting against Kilmarnock......good....about time they get absolutely hammered, and hopefully yet more points docked or worse. Let's hear Salmond defend this 'institution' who on Saturday had thousands being 'institutionally sectarian'.

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Originally Posted by truehibernian

News coming through that the SPL are going to investigate Rangers for alleged sectarian chanting against Kilmarnock......good....about time they get absolutely hammered, and hopefully yet more points docked or worse. Let's hear Salmond defend this 'institution' who on Saturday had thousands being 'institutionally sectarian'.

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Kick a man when he's down, why don't they?



:greengrin

Bad timing on our part to be p1sh. Could have been a big Champions league qualifying clash tonight!

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Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

Kick a man when he's down, why don't they?



:greengrin

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Why not? :greengrin

Seriously though, I think this will bring out the elements in the support that they have been trying (not oo much though) to keep under control.

There were certainly threads on their fans' sites to that effect that they might as well just do as they like.

The authorities need to make sure that they are still required to refrain from all this stuff whether they are goosed or not.

A further 20 point deduction would make it interesting.

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Originally Posted by jgl07

If Rangers get away with this the song will become:

Rule Britannia,
Britannia waives the rules

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Nice one!

Received the following email from Octopus today

We felt it appropriate to provide another update to the adviser community regarding Ticketus – one of the companies Octopus Protected EIS invests into – and the Rangers deal. The level of detail we can go into here is limited by the confidentiality clauses in the various Ticketus contracts and the ongoing administration process, but we’ll continue to provide updates when we can. The statement made last Friday explained that Ticketus has purchased tickets for Glasgow Rangers games for a number of seasons in advance, as it has done for a number of years previously with the club. The current deal between Ticketus and Rangers was closed on 9 May 2011, several days after Craig Whyte purchased the club. To clarify, the funds paid by Ticketus were not a loan in any way either to Craig Whyte or Rangers, they were for the sole purpose of purchasing tickets from the then legal owners of the club.Extensive due diligence is performed on counterparties in every deal, and numerous potential scenarios are modelled and prepared for in the way the deal is structured. But as per our previous note it should be said that no trading activity is 100% risk-free and, whilst Octopus Protected EIS targets capital preservation, it cannot, and does not, guarantee it. However, our analysis of this situation and the various scenarios that may develop from here leave us comfortable with our position. A statement made by Craig Whyte yesterday (http://sport.stv.tv/football/scottis...ement-in-full/) provided more detail on some of the ‘additional protection’ that we described in our previous email.In summary, we continue to remain confident in the product, our approach to investment, and the ticketing model. We appreciate that the level of interest in this story can create challenges for you with your clients but we are working hard with all related parties to ensure that our side of the story is communicated appropriately and that some of the incorrect assumptions that have been made are corrected. We can assure you that we are providing you and our relationship managers with as much information as possible given the circumstances. However, if you do wish to discuss this further or if you have clients who are requesting further information, please speak to your relationship manager who will be happy to help where possible.

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Originally Posted by PatHead

Received the following email from Octopus today

We felt it appropriate to provide another update to the adviser community regarding Ticketus – one of the companies Octopus Protected EIS invests into – and the Rangers deal. The level of detail we can go into here is limited by the confidentiality clauses in the various Ticketus contracts and the ongoing administration process, but we’ll continue to provide updates when we can. The statement made last Friday explained that Ticketus has purchased tickets for Glasgow Rangers games for a number of seasons in advance, as it has done for a number of years previously with the club. The current deal between Ticketus and Rangers was closed on 9 May 2011, several days after Craig Whyte purchased the club. To clarify, the funds paid by Ticketus were not a loan in any way either to Craig Whyte or Rangers, they were for the sole purpose of purchasing tickets from the then legal owners of the club.Extensive due diligence is performed on counterparties in every deal, and numerous potential scenarios are modelled and prepared for in the way the deal is structured. But as per our previous note it should be said that no trading activity is 100% risk-free and, whilst Octopus Protected EIS targets capital preservation, it cannot, and does not, guarantee it. However, our analysis of this situation and the various scenarios that may develop from here leave us comfortable with our position. A statement made by Craig Whyte yesterday (http://sport.stv.tv/football/scottis...ement-in-full/) provided more detail on some of the ‘additional protection’ that we described in our previous email.In summary, we continue to remain confident in the product, our approach to investment, and the ticketing model. We appreciate that the level of interest in this story can create challenges for you with your clients but we are working hard with all related parties to ensure that our side of the story is communicated appropriately and that some of the incorrect assumptions that have been made are corrected. We can assure you that we are providing you and our relationship managers with as much information as possible given the circumstances. However, if you do wish to discuss this further or if you have clients who are requesting further information, please speak to your relationship manager who will be happy to help where possible.

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Interesting stuff... thank you.

That should put to bed all the criticism levelled at Ticketus.

However, it also suggests that CW is telling the truth when he says that he has guaranteed the Ticketus money.

So.... what's your take on the scenario I suggested earlier? If the fans refuse to buy season tickets, does that leave CW picking up the tab?

Are the fans really that thick that they will chant banned and offensive songs at a game? Morons.

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Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

Interesting stuff... thank you.

That should put to bed all the criticism levelled at Ticketus.

However, it also suggests that CW is telling the truth when he says that he has guaranteed the Ticketus money.

So.... what's your take on the scenario I suggested earlier? If the fans refuse to buy season tickets, does that leave CW picking up the tab?

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Certainly looks like it but I wonder where he would get money from? Does he have 24million mates who would give him a loan of a pound?

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Originally Posted by PatHead

Certainly looks like it but I wonder where he would get money from? Does he have 24million mates who would give him a loan of a pound?

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LOL...

That said, Ticketus are smart enough to do due diligence on him. I also reckon they would do more than the David Murray "show us yer bank statement" model. They do say in that statement that they are comfortable in all scenarios.... presumably including the one where they have to chase CW.

I am wondering if the stockbroker firm (Pritchards?) was complicit in establishing his "credit-worthiness".

Loving the mystery...:cb

Looks like Whyte not Rangers will have to cover it, leaving the club with an owner unable to invest . No money coming in from season ticket sales. Dwindling attendances due to poor performances , with reduction in the amount of ST's sold affecting the club's ability to buy decent players AND pay off the current debts. (puff pant). That's the optimistic scenario anyway. I haven't even covered the big tax bill. Ouch!

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Originally Posted by green glory

Looks like Whyte not Rangers will have to cover it, leaving the club with an owner unable to invest . No money coming in from season ticket sales. Dwindling attendances due to poor performances , with reduction in the amount of ST's sold affecting the club's ability to buy decent players AND pay off the current debts. (puff pant). That's the optimistic scenario anyway. I haven't even covered the big tax bill. Ouch!

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You're a gloomy *******.


:greengrin

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Originally Posted by Lost_Mackem

Are the fans really that thick that they will chant banned and offensive songs at a game? Morons.

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Even thicker than that, some of them :agree:

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Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

LOL...

That said, Ticketus are smart enough to do due diligence on him. I also reckon they would do more than the David Murray "show us yer bank statement" model. They do say in that statement that they are comfortable in all scenarios.... presumably including the one where they have to chase CW.

I am wondering if the stockbroker firm (Pritchards?) was complicit in establishing his "credit-worthiness".

Loving the mystery...:cb

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They must know CW well and are comfortable that he'll be able to 'borrow' sufficient funds from someone else to cover any potential debt on this deal. We need a copy of his birth certificate to see if his middle name is Ponzi.

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Originally Posted by Seveno

They must know CW well and are comfortable that he'll be able to 'borrow' sufficient funds from someone else to cover any potential debt on this deal. We need a copy of his birth certificate to see if his middle name is Ponzi.

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:greengrin

Given that Pritchards isny worth a "Whyte pound" any more, the boy may struggle.

Shame

It just gets worse.

http://news.stv.tv/scotland/west-central/

Even their future pies belong to someone else.

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Originally Posted by green glory

It just gets worse.

http://news.stv.tv/scotland/west-central/

Even their future pies belong to someone else.

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STV are clearly getting their stories from Hibs.net. I posted that days ago :greengrin

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Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

That said, Ticketus are smart enough to do due diligence on him.

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Wasn't there something in the papers about one of Whyte's appointed board members was chairman of Octopus "something-or-other", a company that was in the same group as Ticketus?

To me it is sounding more and more like this whole scheme was organised and put into plan by a bunch of business "shysters" before the take-over was even close to being confirmed, and I'm not convinced that "due dilligence" would have been carried out. It's clear that the Ticketus money has been used to purchase the club and to get his Octopus mate a nice bonus/wage on the board at Rangers. On this basis strings may well have been pulled to get the deal done.

It all sounds like a fool proof plan to get full control of Rangers and your fingers into some lucrative money earning opportunities, with the back up of ownership of Ibrox and Murray Park should things really go wrong.

To be honest, I think it would have all been going according to plan if there hadn't been the monumental European failure.

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Originally Posted by StevieC

Wasn't there something in the papers about one of Whyte's appointed board members was chairman of Octopus "something-or-other", a company that was in the same group as Ticketus?

To me it is sounding more and more like this whole scheme was organised and put into plan by a bunch of business "shysters" before the take-over was even close to being confirmed, and I'm not convinced that "due dilligence" would have been carried out. It's clear that the Ticketus money has been used to purchase the club and to get his Octopus mate a nice bonus/wage on the board at Rangers. On this basis strings may well have been pulled to get the deal done.

It all sounds like a fool proof plan to get full control of Rangers and your fingers into some lucrative money earning opportunities, with the back up of ownership of Ibrox and Murray Park should things really go wrong.

To be honest, I think it would have all been going according to plan if there hadn't been the monumental European failure.

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Octopus Investments own Ticketus.

On the Board of Ticketus is the owner of Close Finance, who have the now-infamous "pie mortgage".

And, I absolutely agree with the last line.....it all hinged on CL money. (see my earlier post about Rule Number 1 in football budgeting).

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Originally Posted by PatHead

Certainly looks like it but I wonder where he would get money from? Does he have 24million mates who would give him a loan of a pound?

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What is Alistair Johnstone's agenda in all this. I reckon he is hoping criminal charges can be laid at Whytes door saddling Whyte with the £18m debt and hey presto Rangers FC is £18m cheaper for any prospective buyer.

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Originally Posted by Spike Mandela

What is Alistair Johnstone's agenda in all this. I reckon he is hoping criminal charges can be laid at Whytes door saddling Whyte with the £18m debt and hey presto Rangers FC is £18m cheaper for any prospective buyer.

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I was thinking about this earlier, Spike.

For the last few weeks, he has been the apparent "man in white", asking all the so-called important questions, with threats of police action and the like.

I am now starting to think that it might all be a vanity project for him. Either that, or he is angling to be back at RFC under a new regime, or he is deflecting any criticism of the Murray regime. SDM knows where the bodies are buried here, I am sure of that, and they will be scrabbling to escape the smell.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by green glory

Looks like Whyte not Rangers will have to cover it, leaving the club with an owner unable to invest . No money coming in from season ticket sales. Dwindling attendances due to poor performances , with reduction in the amount of ST's sold affecting the club's ability to buy decent players AND pay off the current debts. (puff pant). That's the optimistic scenario anyway. I haven't even covered the big tax bill. Ouch!

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Due diligence obviously did come into the Ticketus calculations.

Rangers were £18 million in debt to Lloyds Bank Group and had a potential tax bill of £53.3 million (£49 million for the big one and £4.3 million for the little one) hanging over it. They were, according to Craig Whyte burning £9 to £10 million a year. How the hell were they going to survive with much of the season ticket cash pre-empted by Ticketus.

Craig Whyte argued that 'one of his companies' had indemnified Ticketus for the deal. He could presumably liquidate this particular company and Ticketus would get nothing as most of Craig Whyte's assets look illusory.

This could still leave Whyte as the secured creditor for Rangers in the event of liquidation and given the ownership of Ibrox and Murray Park for an outlay of diddely squat!

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Originally Posted by jgl07

Due diligence obviously did come into the Ticketus calculations.

Rangers were £18 million in debt to Lloyds Bank Group and had a potential tax bill of £53.3 million (£49 million for the big one and £4.3 million for the little one) hanging over it. They were, according to Craig Whyte burning £9 to £10 million a year. How the hell were they going to survive with much of the season ticket cash pre-empted by Ticketus.

Craig Whyte argued that 'one of his companies' had indemnified Ticketus for the deal. He could presumably liquidate this particular company and Ticketus would get nothing as most of Craig Whyte's assets look illusory.

This could still leave Whyte as the secured creditor for Rangers in the event of liquidation and given the ownership of Ibrox and Murray Park for an outlay of diddely squat!

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Don't agree :greengrin

RFC Group owe RFC £24m... the Ticketus money that wasn't passed on. RFC owe RFCG £18m...... what they paid Lloyds. Net effect is that RFC are owed £6m.

There is no creditor IMO.

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Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

Octopus Investments own Ticketus.

On the Board of Ticketus is the owner of Close Finance, who have the now-infamous "pie mortgage".

And, I absolutely agree with the last line.....it all hinged on CL money. (see my earlier post about Rule Number 1 in football budgeting).

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:top marks

They're so *****in screwed man.

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Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

Don't agree :greengrin

RFC Group owe RFC £24m... the Ticketus money that wasn't passed on. RFC owe RFCG £18m...... what they paid Lloyds. Net effect is that RFC are owed £6m.

There is no creditor IMO.

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But is the Ticketus deal still not 'legal'?

So far as we know it was concluded before CW was a director or majority shareholder in RFC?

I have known of any number of deals in the past requiring, as the legals like to say, to be ''cured'' but this is so fundamental - who, in RFC authorised CW to do the deal with Ticketus??