Brexit - What Now.

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Originally Posted by Fife-Hibee

https://i.ibb.co/Qd4GRbh/joswin.png

But hold on Jo.... If both Labour and the Conservatives want Brexit. Then who are the Lib Dems going to work with to make up the numbers to stop it? :confused: Unless of course the Lib Dems have no intentions of trying anything to stop it and are simply riding an opportunistic wave which is about to come crashing to the shore.

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Are you suggesting that Labour and Cons are united on Brexit even within their own parties?

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Originally Posted by Colr

Are you suggesting that Labour and Cons are united on Brexit even within their own parties?

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Well she did say "Corbyn's Labour", inferring that the whole party under Corbyn wants Brexit.

It's going to be no deal and the Eton boy and his Eton chums are going to tell Scotland they'll just have to deal with it because we said so so there.

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Originally Posted by StevieC

You have to laugh at the Brexit Party .. put up a candidate that takes 3,000 votes off a pro-Brexit Tory to allow a remain candidate to win by just over 1,000 votes !!

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Unfortunately it shows that the Tories can win the election if they deliver brexit and then infict years of austerity yet again. How gullible can folk be.

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Originally Posted by lord bunberry

I’m almost certain now that we will leave without a deal. The government are doing as much as they can to piss off the EU while MPs are on holiday. It will only take one country in the EU to say enough is enough you either take the deal on offer or leave with no deal, no more extensions. Parliament can do whatever they want and vote on whatever they want, but if the EU don’t give another extension then there’s no chance of a deal.

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Parliament could vote to revoke. Or they could threaten to revoke to force a GE

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Originally Posted by Callum_62

Show me where people voted for a hard Brexit?

Unless my memory is totally shot alot of the talk was Norway and easy deals etc

We are not getting what we voted for

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they voted to leave. the terms weren't set out. soft or hard or no deal if we leave they'll have got what they voted for.

Scotland voted to stay and has to deal with the consequences. I never saw "remain unless 2 years from now something happens you don't fancy" on the paper.



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Brexit? On a par wi the idiocy of that clown trump, but worse, cos the us will survive while this unthought out halfwitted impossible to achieve foolishness will destroy what was known as the U.K.

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Originally Posted by Just Jimmy

they voted to leave. the terms weren't set out. soft or hard or no deal if we leave they'll have got what they voted for.

Scotland voted to stay and has to deal with the consequences. I never saw "remain unless 2 years from now something happens you don't fancy" on the paper.



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That was in the subsequent election manifesto’s of the SNP and the Greens. They went on to win a majority in Parliament based on that manifesto and therefore can have another vote. So long as the Scottish people keep electing parties who want another vote then that’s what we will have. If the SNP have it in their next manifesto that they are going have monthly referendums and people vote for them then that’s what people want.
Democracy did not end in 2014.
If you don’t want more referendums then you better hope that the Tories pick up in the polls in Scotland.


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Originally Posted by BroxburnHibee

Parliament could vote to revoke. Or they could threaten to revoke to force a GE

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I don’t think there’s a majority to revoke though. I think the EU will get so fed up of Johnson and his cohorts, they’ll give a final take it or leave it ultimatum as we approach the deadline.

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Originally Posted by lord bunberry

I don’t think there’s a majority to revoke though. I think the EU will get so fed up of Johnson and his cohorts, they’ll give a final take it or leave it ultimatum as we approach the deadline.

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I suspect you are right. Macron seemed resistant to the last extension and I get the feeling that they are sick of the UK......as am I!!

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Originally Posted by Just Jimmy

they voted to leave. the terms weren't set out. soft or hard or no deal if we leave they'll have got what they voted for.



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And that's the issue. Absolutely no chance the majority of leave voters thought they were voting for what it looks like they are now getting

My memory of 2016 was easy deals, all the benefits with no downsides, 350m p/w to nhs, Norway, Switzerland

None of that is what we are getting

You can't seriously think that if in 2016 we were told that our deal would be a hard Brexit then leave voters would say great, I'm in

The reason I say that with confidence as back then even the now hard Brexiteers never talked about it


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Originally Posted by Colr

I suspect you are right. Macron seemed resistant to the last extension and I get the feeling that they are sick of the UK......as am I!!

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I think that’s the plan. That way they can blame the EU for no deal.

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Originally Posted by Callum_62

And that's the issue. Absolutely no chance the majority of leave voters thought they were voting for what it looks like they are now getting

My memory of 2016 was easy deals, all the benefits with no downsides, 350m p/w to nhs, Norway, Switzerland

None of that is what we are getting

You can't seriously think that if in 2016 we were told that our deal would be a hard Brexit then leave voters would say great, I'm in

The reason I say that with confidence as back then even the now hard Brexiteers never talked about it


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of course not, but did anyone with a brain even really think we'd be able to walk away and keep all the good things?

it's in the interest of the EU to make it as bad as they can or else others say they'll leave too.

if you divorce, you don't keep everything. at best you compromise and get some of the good.

I'm whole heartily against leaving the EU. It's economic suicide and as bad as been forecast, I think it'll be a hell of a lot worse. my point however was the paper was a choice of stay or leave and the majority of those eligible, who voted, voted leave. if they wanted more concrete explanations before then they should have voted remain or pressed for them.

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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

That was in the subsequent election manifesto’s of the SNP and the Greens. They went on to win a majority in Parliament based on that manifesto and therefore can have another vote. So long as the Scottish people keep electing parties who want another vote then that’s what we will have. If the SNP have it in their next manifesto that they are going have monthly referendums and people vote for them then that’s what people want.
Democracy did not end in 2014.
If you don’t want more referendums then you better hope that the Tories pick up in the polls in Scotland.


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democracy is not voting and voting each week until you get what you want.

I'm whole heartedly against brexit. I voted remain. however the majority of those that voted, voted for leave. this was never defined it was straight in or out.

Independence was sold as a once in a generation vote. regardless of how I voted at the time. Scotland knew it didn't often get a say in UK affairs and it voted to maintain that anyway. so why the outrage when a largely English decision impacts Scotland so much?

I'm firmly of the belief it will happen but to pretend brexit is bad but independence is all rosey is nieve at best. there's plenty of constitutional issues which remain unanswered and never were addressed properly.

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Originally Posted by Just Jimmy

democracy is not voting and voting each week until you get what you want.

I'm whole heartedly against brexit. I voted remain. however the majority of those that voted, voted for leave. this was never defined it was straight in or out.

Independence was sold as a once in a generation vote. regardless of how I voted at the time. Scotland knew it didn't often get a say in UK affairs and it voted to maintain that anyway. so why the outrage when a largely English decision impacts Scotland so much?

I'm firmly of the belief it will happen but to pretend brexit is bad but independence is all rosey is nieve at best. there's plenty of constitutional issues which remain unanswered and never were addressed properly.

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As Disraeli said:

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'Finality is not the language of politics'.

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Originally Posted by Just Jimmy

democracy is not voting and voting each week until you get what you want.

I'm whole heartedly against brexit. I voted remain. however the majority of those that voted, voted for leave. this was never defined it was straight in or out.

Independence was sold as a once in a generation vote. regardless of how I voted at the time. Scotland knew it didn't often get a say in UK affairs and it voted to maintain that anyway. so why the outrage when a largely English decision impacts Scotland so much?

I'm firmly of the belief it will happen but to pretend brexit is bad but independence is all rosey is nieve at best. there's plenty of constitutional issues which remain unanswered and never were addressed properly.

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The "once in a generation" thing was merely a quote. It serves no legal basis and there is no mention of it in the Edinburgh Agreement (which was breached by Better Together anyway).

Just like their tosh about "equal family of nations", "best of both worlds", "devo max", "full federalism", "the vow", "northern powerhouses"..... etc. It all went flying out the window on the 18th of September 2014 because there was no legal requirement for them to follow through with any of it.

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Originally Posted by Just Jimmy

of course not, but did anyone with a brain even really think we'd be able to walk away and keep all the good things?

it's in the interest of the EU to make it as bad as they can or else others say they'll leave too.

if you divorce, you don't keep everything. at best you compromise and get some of the good.

I'm whole heartily against leaving the EU. It's economic suicide and as bad as been forecast, I think it'll be a hell of a lot worse. my point however was the paper was a choice of stay or leave and the majority of those eligible, who voted, voted leave. if they wanted more concrete explanations before then they should have voted remain or pressed for them.

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Hmmm, folk voting in the information provided to them - can't really blame the voters now can we

What we should be doing is holding those in power to account

Regardless, MPs are there to look after our best interests

Anyone looking at the governments forecasts can plainly see any brexit, nevermind a hard Brexit is not in our interests at all

Shurugging shoulders and saying oh well that's what apparently folk voted for is a deriliction of duty

The fact that all this analysis was tried to be kept hidden tells you everything you need to know

This shouldnt be some party political points scoring exercise--this should have been from day 1, an open transparent cross party deal

The govt at every step has been sneaky, underhand and downright incompetent - none of these things exists if you are benefitting your population

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Originally Posted by Callum_62

Hmmm, folk voting in the information provided to them - can't really blame the voters now can we

What we should be doing is holding those in power to account

Regardless, MPs are there to look after our best interests

Anyone looking at the governments forecasts can plainly see any brexit, nevermind a hard Brexit is not in our interests at all

Shurugging shoulders and saying oh well that's what apparently folk voted for is a deriliction of duty

The fact that all this analysis was tried to be kept hidden tells you everything you need to know

This shouldnt be some party political points scoring exercise--this should have been from day 1, an open transparent cross party deal

The govt at every step has been sneaky, underhand and downright incompetent - none of these things exists if you are benefitting your population

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I'm well aware of what brexit mean. the initial point however was that people voted to leave and leave wasn't defined so any type of leave is delivering that.

that is completely at odds with how I actually feel about the whole situation but never the less if the choice is stay or go and go is the winning vote, with no defined perimeters then how can they say they didn't vote for that?

the reality is that some issues are too big to be trusted to the general public to be voted on.

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Originally Posted by lord bunberry

I don’t think there’s a majority to revoke though. I think the EU will get so fed up of Johnson and his cohorts, they’ll give a final take it or leave it ultimatum as we approach the deadline.

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We'll see as the date gets closer peoples minds will start to change.

No deal would be a disaster.

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Originally Posted by Just Jimmy

democracy is not voting and voting each week until you get what you want.

I'm whole heartedly against brexit. I voted remain. however the majority of those that voted, voted for leave. this was never defined it was straight in or out.

Independence was sold as a once in a generation vote. regardless of how I voted at the time. Scotland knew it didn't often get a say in UK affairs and it voted to maintain that anyway. so why the outrage when a largely English decision impacts Scotland so much?

I'm firmly of the belief it will happen but to pretend brexit is bad but independence is all rosey is nieve at best. there's plenty of constitutional issues which remain unanswered and never were addressed properly.

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Full disclosure, I voted "Yes" in 2014, but I'm not sure how I'd vote in another referendum. However, out of all the talk around Scottish independence, on both sides of the argument, the "once in a generation" line is the one that riles me the most. It's usually preceded, or followed, by a comment suggesting that anyone advocating for another referendum is not "respecting democracy".

I can't think of anything less democratic than denying an electorate something which they have voted for on the basis of a campaigning slogan from a previous referendum. For what it's worth, I'm not saying the Scottish electorate has voted for another referendum, but the "once in a generation" position suggests that it would be irrelevant if they had.

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Originally Posted by Future17

Full disclosure, I voted "Yes" in 2014, but I'm not sure how I'd vote in another referendum. However, out of all the talk around Scottish independence, on both sides of the argument, the "once in a generation" line is the one that riles me the most. It's usually preceded, or followed, by a comment suggesting that anyone advocating for another referendum is not "respecting democracy".

I can't think of anything less democratic than denying an electorate something which they have voted for on the basis of a campaigning slogan from a previous referendum. For what it's worth, I'm not saying the Scottish electorate has voted for another referendum, but the "once in a generation" position suggests that it would be irrelevant if they had.

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The once in a generation comment was said once in one interview by Alex Salmond. It was his opinion. It was not in the Edinburgh agreement or anywhere else.


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Originally Posted by lord bunberry

I think that’s the plan. That way they can blame the EU for no deal.

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It's already building towards that. Tories now saying that the EU are refusing to have any discussion

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Originally Posted by Just Jimmy

they voted to leave. the terms weren't set out. soft or hard or no deal if we leave they'll have got what they voted for.

Scotland voted to stay and has to deal with the consequences. I never saw "remain unless 2 years from now something happens you don't fancy" on the paper.



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Well that’s that then.

J

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Originally Posted by Bristolhibby

Well that’s that then.

J

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As Disraeli said:


'Finality is not the language of politics'.

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Originally Posted by weecounty hibby

It's already building towards that. Tories now saying that the EU are refusing to have any discussion

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I wonder what Johnson's plan is when everything goes to ****? Johnson has been telling folk there'll be minimal disruption if there is no deal, so how will he survive the chaos that no deal will bring? I'm really struggling to comprehend this

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Originally Posted by Mr Grieves

I wonder what Johnson's plan is when everything goes to ****? Johnson has been telling folk there'll be minimal disruption if there is no deal, so how will he survive the chaos that no deal will bring? I'm really struggling to comprehend this

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He will think he can survive because for most of us it won’t be daily chaos and many of those who vote Tory will be amongst the least likely to suffer any real financial hardship. He is banking on those of us who wish to remain in the EU overdoing the doomsday stuff so he can ask what all the fuss was about later. It’s a trap we shouldn’t fall in to.

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Originally Posted by marinello59

He will think he can survive because for most of us it won’t be daily chaos and many of those who vote Tory will be amongst the least likely to suffer any real financial hardship. He is banking on those of us who wish to remain in the EU overdoing the doomsday stuff so he can ask what all the fuss was about later. It’s a trap we shouldn’t fall in to.

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Plus it’s not like people believe Corbyn will sort it all out anyway. So long a Labour have Corbyn, Johnson will correctly bet that he can win a GE.


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What I'm wondering, politicians are elected to run the country for the 'best'.

It's always been assumed that they have more info than Joe public so can make informed decisions that benefit/protect the nation... My question is, if a group of politicians actually damage the country for ideological reasons is that treason?

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Originally Posted by Mr Grieves

I wonder what Johnson's plan is when everything goes to ****? Johnson has been telling folk there'll be minimal disruption if there is no deal, so how will he survive the chaos that no deal will bring? I'm really struggling to comprehend this

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It won't matter one bit. There are still loads of Brexit voters who are only interested in keeping Johnny Foreign out and taking back control, whatever the **** that actually means and are happy to take the consequences. If there was a GE now he'd get in and I'm convinced that if/when he delivers a Brexit if any kind he will still get in if he waits to call GE.

Scotland's brexit party MEP.

https://i.ibb.co/LZpQvpz/brexitmep.png

The Scottish electorate actually gave this halfwit a job. :rolleyes: