SNP are lying b******s as well !

Quote:

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Originally Posted by lapsedhibee

Didn't we already try a flat rate council tax, and people didn't like it? IIRC there was actual rioting in Scotland when Thatcher introduced it.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

Big fan of the Poll Tax were you?


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When I was typing that I knew the poll tax would be brought up and obviously I’ve heard it wasn’t very popular [emoji3] but I would have been at school so don’t have any real memory of it so have no real sense of how much it would cost me nowadays or if I’m better off with council tax!

I still don’t think for example two pensioners with the same income should pay different amounts for the same service purely based on the value of the house they probably worked hard all their life to pay for but I don’t know what the solution is.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by hibee

When I was typing that I knew the poll tax would be brought up and obviously I’ve heard it wasn’t very popular [emoji3] but I would have been at school so don’t have any real memory of it so have no real sense of how much it would cost me nowadays or if I’m better off with council tax!

I still don’t think for example two pensioners with the same income should pay different amounts for the same service purely based on the value of the house they probably worked hard all their life to pay for but I don’t know what the solution is.

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I was on a YTS training scheme that paid £27.30 a week and my poll tax was £600 per annum.
Taxing property based on value is done in many countries all over the world. Do you really think a person living in Ravelston Dykes should pay the same as a person in Muirhouse?
The worked hard all their life to pay for argument is nonsense. Do people in small houses not work hard? If this society is good to you and you prosper then you should expect to pay more.


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

I was on a YTS training scheme that paid £27.30 a week and my poll tax was £600 per annum.

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I can see why people would complain about that, clearly not implemented fairly.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

Do you really think a person living in Ravelston Dykes should pay the same as a person in Muirhouse?

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Yes, same council, same services provided.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

The worked hard all their life to pay for argument is nonsense. Do people in small houses not work hard? If this society is good to you and you prosper then you should expect to pay more.

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In your opinion it’s nonsense but not in mine, society doesn’t generally give people bigger houses for free.

Of course people in small houses work hard, if two people worked the same job all their life, earned the same, and now have the same income with no savings they should pay the same council tax if the only difference between them is how they chose to spend their own money when they were working.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by hibee

I can see why people would complain about that, clearly not implemented fairly.



Yes, same council, same services provided.



In your opinion it’s nonsense but not in mine, society doesn’t generally give people bigger houses for free.

Of course people in small houses work hard, if two people worked the same job all their life, earned the same, and now have the same income with no savings they should pay the same council tax if the only difference between them is how they chose to spend their own money when they were working.

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You don’t think a big house with a massive garden and many bathrooms uses more public services? Who cuts all those nice trees up Ravelston Dykes, clears the leaves etc?


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Why is there different levels of income tax when we all use the same police NHS etc. Because in almost every civilised society people realise some can afford more than others to get a livable society for all

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Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

Why is there different levels of income tax when we all use the same police NHS etc. Because in almost every civilised society people realise some can afford more than others to get a livable society for all

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I was about to reply with almost exactly this but seen you’ve beat me to it.

To set a flat rate of council tax for all would increase the amount drastically for those least well off whilst decreasing it drastically for those most well off, so to keep it simple, it’s definitely not the solution.

In the absence of a better solution, maybe just resetting the band based on 2025 values rather than 1991 values would be a good start.

My personal opinion would be a % of the properties value, however not 1% as suggested above. Maybe somewhere between 0.5% - 0.75%.

Both solutions have the issue of how we value so many properties though, and the ongoing issue of keeping it up to date.

Maybe an element of factoring in the number of adult occupants too. We already have the single person discount but arguably a property with 2 adults should also pay less than one with 5.

Finally, students should not be exempt from council tax IMO, simply subject to a discount. They use a the services in the same way as anyone else.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

You don’t think a big house with a massive garden and many bathrooms uses more public services? Who cuts all those nice trees up Ravelston Dykes, clears the leaves etc?


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Fact is though that the vast majority of the council costs come from two areas. Education and Social Care.

Arguing over who uses more based on size of house or where they stay is rather pointless.

The Council Tax aka Property taxes are highly effective tax in terms of what percentage is received v expected. It’s also a very stable tax as it’s based on an unmovable asset.

It therefore makes a lot of sense for local councils to levy a property tax.

The problem is that the system has been left to decay to the point that it’s now rather distorted. This has reduced its progressiveness and is clearly now not fit for purpose.

Debate will rage as to what could or should replace it but in the meantime it’s beyond me why they don’t just start by refreshing the valuations and bands to fix some of the existing issues with the existing system.

Done correctly I’m sure that would raise some additional revenue as well as being ‘fairer’.

That would at least buy some time to allow the politicians to finally get around to trying to discuss what might be seen as a sensible replacement (maybe!)

I think the perception of any tax depends to a large extent on how it affects the person paying it and their ability to do so.

It is entirely possible in theory to take an altruistic approach to determining equitable taxation, but harder to maintain that altruism, when its effects really begin to bite on you.

That ability to meet taxation changes through the years for a number of reasons, e.g.:

Starting work on a low salary with little free income

Career progression providing more free income

Cohabitating with spouse providing yet more free income

Children coming along obliterating free income

Gradual Recovery of free income

Peak Free income years post children

Retirement.

As someone in the latter category, I have experienced all these things with some easier to navigate through than others.

I would though say the 2 most difficult are the children obliterating free income stage and Retirement.

As most others will have done at our stage of life we worked bloody hard over 40 plus years to afford the house we currently live in.

We now pay more in Council Tax than our highest-ever mortgage payment at a time when we have lower income than in the last 20 years and little ability to do anything to change that.

We love our house, but are now in a race to the bottom to see whether either we or our Retirement Income/Savings run out first.

I also think that one of the great irony's is that moving down does not release nearly as much cash as you may expect by the time fees, taxes and the need to bring the smaller house up to standard are factored in.

If it is the latter we will need to sell and move down and that doesn't seem right to me, especially at a time when our consumption of local authority provided services is likely at an all time low. Fully accept though that paying as you use said services is completely unworkable so we are where we are on that point.

I am in favour of progressive taxation, but it seems that that only works one way (in an upwards direction) and there is no counterpart to that when your ability to pay lessens on anything other than Income Tax and NI, that is you earn less so you pay less or in the case of NI nothing.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Paul1642

I was about to reply with almost exactly this but seen you’ve beat me to it.

To set a flat rate of council tax for all would increase the amount drastically for those least well off whilst decreasing it drastically for those most well off, so to keep it simple, it’s definitely not the solution.

In the absence of a better solution, maybe just resetting the band based on 2025 values rather than 1991 values would be a good start.

My personal opinion would be a % of the properties value, however not 1% as suggested above. Maybe somewhere between 0.5% - 0.75%.

Both solutions have the issue of how we value so many properties though, and the ongoing issue of keeping it up to date.

Maybe an element of factoring in the number of adult occupants too. We already have the single person discount but arguably a property with 2 adults should also pay less than one with 5.

Finally, students should not be exempt from council tax IMO, simply subject to a discount. They use a the services in the same way as anyone else.

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Aren’t we trying to get older people to downsize? Giving a discount for one person living in a 5 bed house seems counter productive. It’s encouraging an inefficient use of resources.
Happy for Students to have it free because their source of income is borrowing from the govt. It would be a bit mad to tax them on money they have borrowed.


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by BSEJVT

I think the perception of any tax depends to a large extent on how it affects the person paying it and their ability to do so.

It is entirely possible in theory to take an altruistic approach to determining equitable taxation, but harder to maintain that altruism, when its effects really begin to bite on you.

That ability to meet taxation changes through the years for a number of reasons, e.g.:

Starting work on a low salary with little free income

Career progression providing more free income

Cohabitating with spouse providing yet more free income

Children coming along obliterating free income

Gradual Recovery of free income

Peak Free income years post children

Retirement.

As someone in the latter category, I have experienced all these things with some easier to navigate through than others.

I would though say the 2 most difficult are the children obliterating free income stage and Retirement.

As most others will have done at our stage of life we worked bloody hard over 40 plus years to afford the house we currently live in.

We now pay more in Council Tax than our highest-ever mortgage payment at a time when we have lower income than in the last 20 years and little ability to do anything to change that.

We love our house, but are now in a race to the bottom to see whether either we or our Retirement Income/Savings run out first.

I also think that one of the great irony's is that moving down does not release nearly as much cash as you may expect by the time fees, taxes and the need to bring the smaller house up to standard are factored in.

If it is the latter we will need to sell and move down and that doesn't seem right to me, especially at a time when our consumption of local authority provided services is likely at an all time low. Fully accept though that paying as you use said services is completely unworkable so we are where we are on that point.

I am in favour of progressive taxation, but it seems that that only works one way (in an upwards direction) and there is no counterpart to that when your ability to pay lessens on anything other than Income Tax and NI, that is you earn less so you pay less or in the case of NI nothing.

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LBTT should not be levied on people downsizing. IMHO.


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Someone above made a very good point.

Change the system so it’s based on the property value. Charge a certain percentage every year. If you live in a £100k flat or a £2 million mansion then you pay proportionally.

Edinburgh especially must be worth billions in properties, if you can afford a big house you can afford a bigger council tax.

Implemenring it may be tricky as you’d maybe need your house valued every year but I’m sure there would be a way to do it.

Seems fair and sensible to me

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hibs4185

Someone above made a very good point.

Change the system so it’s based on the property value. Charge a certain percentage every year. If you live in a £100k flat or a £2 million mansion then you pay proportionally.

Edinburgh especially must be worth billions in properties, if you can afford a big house you can afford a bigger council tax.

Implemenring it may be tricky as you’d maybe need your house valued every year but I’m sure there would be a way to do it.

Seems fair and sensible to me

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A new valuation every 5 years should be enough.


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hibs4185

Change the system so it’s based on the property value. Charge a certain percentage every year. If you live in a £100k flat or a £2 million mansion then you pay proportionally.

Edinburgh especially must be worth billions in properties, if you can afford a big house you can afford a bigger council tax.

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So if the value of my home increases through no action of mine, I end up paying more CT even though my own circumstances - and income - may have stayed the same? If the increase in property values continues, I may end up not being able to afford to live in my own home?

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Originally Posted by grunt

So if the value of my home increases through no action of mine, I end up paying more CT even though my own circumstances - and income - may have stayed the same? If the increase in property values continues, I may end up not being able to afford to live in my own home?

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The govt can adjust every year how much of a percentage it takes. If prices are rising they can drop the percentage.
But if the price of your home has gone up by the govt putting in a new tram line near you then of course you will be expected to pay more because you have made a gain at the publics expense.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

The govt can adjust every year how much of a percentage it takes. If prices are rising they can drop the percentage.
But if the price of your home has gone up by the govt putting in a new tram line near you then of course you will be expected to pay more because you have made a gain at the publics expense.

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It would also perhaps incentivize people to downsize who have spare bedrooms. Things aren't sustainable as is a generation comfortable with huge homes and another generation coming through that will never own a home so pay expensive rents and were back to families sharing bedrooms, sometimes adults with their kids


David Milner
@djjmilner
·
20h
The average age of a median homebuyer in the UK is now 56.

56! This is up, staggeringly, from 45 in 2021

In 1981 the median age was 31

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Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

David Milner
@djjmilner
·
20h
The average age of a median homebuyer in the UK is now 56.

56! This is up, staggeringly, from 45 in 2021

In 1981 the median age was 31

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"The average age of a median homebuyer ..." is meaningless twaddle.

And those figures are from a US publication, not UK.

It's complete bollocks.

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Originally Posted by grunt

"The average age of a median homebuyer ..." is meaningless twaddle.

And those figures are from a US publication, not UK.

It's complete bollocks.

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It's meaningless on its own but the trends are clear there is a home ownership crisis for the youth.

Between 2006 and 2024, the proportion of 25- to 34-year-olds living with their parents increased a third from 13% to 18% 450,000 more

The average age of a first time buyer was 26 in 1997 it's now 35

In 1998 35% of 25 to 35 yo's it was 55 by 2020.

10,360 Scottish kids are counted as homeless up from 6,600 2018, a national disgrace. If people with 400k houses have to pay a bit more to help reduce that number then I can live with that

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Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

It's meaningless on its own but the trends are clear there is a home ownership crisis for the youth.

Between 2006 and 2024, the proportion of 25- to 34-year-olds living with their parents increased a third from 13% to 18% 450,000 more

The average age of a first time buyer was 26 in 1997 it's now 35

In 1998 35% of 25 to 35 yo's it was 55 by 2020.

10,360 Scottish kids are counted as homeless up from 6,600 2018, a national disgrace. If people with 400k houses have to pay a bit more to help reduce that number then I can live with that

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It's not so much people with £400k houses, there's huge amounts of tax left on the table for people with properties above £600 - £700k. People with a £700k property pay around £3.3k, people with a £2m property pay the same £3.3k. We need a completely new system or at the very least we need revaluations and more bands.

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Originally Posted by Andy Bee

It's not so much people with £400k houses, there's huge amounts of tax left on the table for people with properties above £600 - £700k. People with a £700k property pay around £3.3k, people with a £2m property pay the same £3.3k. We need a completely new system or at the very least we need revaluations and more bands.

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Take property out of the equation and introduce a local income tax?

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Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

Take property out of the equation and introduce a local income tax?

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I'd almost be in favour of that, were it not for the fact that the richest in society usually earn their money outside of the PAYE system.

They already avoid paying a fair share of their earnings in taxes through various schemes, such as income earned through companies based abroad and other such wheezes. This would just give them another get out clause.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

Take property out of the equation and introduce a local income tax?

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Then you are taxing work not wealth?


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Keith_M

I'd almost be in favour of that, were it not for the fact that the richest in society usually earn their money outside of the PAYE system.

They already avoid paying a fair share of their earnings in taxes through various schemes, such as income earned through companies based abroad and other such wheezes. This would just give them another get out clause.

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Yip. You can’t hide property.


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

10,360 Scottish kids are counted as homeless up from 6,600 2018, a national disgrace. If people with 400k houses have to pay a bit more to help reduce that number then I can live with that

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That’s the price of a normal family home these days, families living in these houses are not millionaires and shouldn’t be responsible for other people’s kids.

They should be going after the millionaires with multiple homes more and leaving normal families alone as they’re already paying more than enough tax.

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Originally Posted by hibee

That’s the price of a normal family home these days, families living in these houses are not millionaires and shouldn’t be responsible for other people’s kids.

They should be going after the millionaires with multiple homes more and leaving normal families alone as they’re already paying more than enough tax.

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Everyone wants other people to pay. I pay more in Scotland than I would in England and I think I definitely pay too little. Of course tax should be top heavy but everyone including "normal families" should pay what in reality would be a tiny bit more for Scottish kids not to be homeless

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Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

Everyone wants other people to pay. I pay more in Scotland than I would in England and I think I definitely pay too little. Of course tax should be top heavy but everyone including "normal families" should pay what in reality would be a tiny bit more for Scottish kids not to be homeless

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10931 homes worth £1m+ in Scotland according to Savills, an eye watering 71% increase since 2019 and a lot in Edinburgh. Granted a lot will be homes already existing with the values going up but it's still pretty shocking that CT is calculated with the highest value band homes being £212k.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Andy Bee

10931 homes worth £1m+ in Scotland according to Savills, an eye watering 71% increase since 2019 and a lot in Edinburgh. Granted a lot will be homes already existing with the values going up but it's still pretty shocking that CT is calculated with the highest value band homes being £212k.

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I completely agree raise the % every 50k past 400k

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Andy Bee

10931 homes worth £1m+ in Scotland according to Savills, an eye watering 71% increase since 2019 and a lot in Edinburgh. Granted a lot will be homes already existing with the values going up but it's still pretty shocking that CT is calculated with the highest value band homes being £212k.

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The highest value band is a house that would have been valued at £212k in April 1991 though, in todays money that’s a house worth £770k so we’d only need one more band from £275k for that to catch all the £1m homes today.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by hibee

The highest value band is a house that would have been valued at £212k in April 1991 though, in todays money that’s a house worth £770k so we’d only need one more band from £275k for that to catch all the £1m homes today.

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I've just had a flick through zoopla and this is CT band G

https://www.zoopla.co.uk/for-sale/de...730071c100fbd1

And there's plenty more like it. It aint as simple as sticking another band on.

CT band F

https://www.zoopla.co.uk/for-sale/de...3742daf57d519e

6 bedrooms, 5 bathrooms and 4 reception rooms Offers over £2.2m CT Band G

https://www.zoopla.co.uk/for-sale/de...3742daf57d519e

WTAF

There are at least 22 houses in my postcode, every one is different. Valuations according to zoopla range from £275,500 (2021) to 780,000 (2014)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

The average age of a median homebuyer in the UK is now 56.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

The average age of a first time buyer was 26 in 1997 it's now 35

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I'm getting a bit confused by the contradictory numbers you keep posting. I agree with your overll premise, that there is a home ownership problem for young people today, but your headline grabbing posts are not helping to make your case.

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Originally Posted by grunt

I'm getting a bit confused by the contradictory numbers you keep posting. I agree with your overll premise, that there is a home ownership problem for young people today, but your headline grabbing posts are not helping to make your case.

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Not all homebuyers are first time buyers, so no contradiction?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by lapsedhibee

Not all homebuyers are first time buyers, so no contradiction?

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Perhaps contradiction was not the right word, nonetheless I remain confused. I don't really understand the first statistic (which related to the US in any case). I've yet to receive an explanation for what a "median homebuyer" is. If the stat just means that people buying all homes - whether their first or twenty-first - are getting older, then I'm not sure what that tells us?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by grunt

Perhaps contradiction was not the right word, nonetheless I remain confused. I don't really understand the first statistic (which related to the US in any case). I've yet to receive an explanation for what a "median homebuyer" is. If the stat just means that people buying all homes - whether their first or twenty-first - are getting older, then I'm not sure what that tells us?

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If people are buying their first home at an older age I guess it tells us that home ownership is becoming more difficult?


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by grunt

Perhaps contradiction was not the right word, nonetheless I remain confused. I don't really understand the first statistic (which related to the US in any case). I've yet to receive an explanation for what a "median homebuyer" is. If the stat just means that people buying all homes - whether their first or twenty-first - are getting older, then I'm not sure what that tells us?

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Average age for a first time buyer is between 32 and 35 depending where you read it, it's rising though. They're either renting or staying with parents up to that age which I suppose will also effect population growth. In the case of people in living wage jobs I don't see how they would ever get on the housing ladder which also raises the question of future pensions, how do they survive on state pension and pay rent?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

If people are buying their first home at an older age I guess it tells us that home ownership is becoming more difficult?

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Your post did not state that the stats you provided related to first time buyers ...

And if that is what you meant, the numbers are clearly gibberish.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by grunt

Your post did not state that the stats you provided related to first time buyers ...

And if that is what you meant, the numbers are clearly gibberish.

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Wasn’t my post?[emoji2369]


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by grunt

I'm getting a bit confused by the contradictory numbers you keep posting. I agree with your overll premise, that there is a home ownership problem for young people today, but your headline grabbing posts are not helping to make your case.

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None of the numbers are contradictory they are complimentary. In every metric the average age is increasing by a decade. First time buyer, age people leaving home average age of houses bought. They don't mean anything on their own but there is a clear trend. It's not complicated as it's obvious and alarming how high the rises are.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

None of the numbers are contradictory they are complimentary.

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Well thank you for that.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by grunt

Well thank you for that.

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:tsk tsk:

https://x.com/AuditorGenScot/status/...a6exfOMPA&s=19

"40 per cent of pupils in Scotland’s state schools receive additional support for their learning.

But the Scottish Government failed to plan for the impacts of an inclusive approach to ASL."

This is a really difficult subject as I think any government would struggle to meet the needs of every single child, so yes the SNP are in power but I think this would be a challenge for any party in government.

I have to say I have a child with ASL and actually I can't fault the support he gets, so he is perhaps one of the lucky ones.

This should be a priority for all parties in the run up to the 2026 elections.

I have to agree, my grandson is autistic but the support he has received in his education has been exemplary.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jamie_1875

I have to say I have a child with ASL and actually I can't fault the support he gets, so he is perhaps one of the lucky ones.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Berwickhibby

I have to agree, my grandson is autistic but the support he has received in his education has been exemplary.

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Good to hear positive feedback such as this.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Berwickhibby

I have to agree, my grandson is autistic but the support he has received in his education has been exemplary.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by grunt

Good to hear positive feedback such as this.

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The interesting thing about education is that while there are frequent reports of its shortcomings, whenever parents are asked about their kids own school they usually answer that they are very happy with and think it is doing a great job.


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

The interesting thing about education is that while there are frequent reports of its shortcomings, whenever parents are asked about their kids own school they usually answer that they are very happy with and think it is doing a great job.


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I have heard some complete horror stories as well where kids are being really badly let down. I think in my case my son has a formal diagnosis, that opens doors and unlocks funding. There are kids waiting years for a diagnosis though. There are plenty of kids being let down through no fault of the teacher or school, the teacher has a class of 30 and if nearly half require additional support it causes lots of issues as the kids who don't need support are not reaching their potential and the kids who do need it are not getting it in a formal way.

I would like to see all parties come together on this and share ideas and suggestions on how to improve it, as the report says the Scottish Government have failed here.

Nicola Sturgeon has announced she is standing down from Scottish politics.

The former first minister has revealed she will not contest next year’s Holyrood election, in confirmation that had long been expected following her resignation as SNP leader two years ago.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by grunt

Nicola Sturgeon has announced she is standing down from Scottish politics.

The former first minister has revealed she will not contest next year’s Holyrood election, in confirmation that had long been expected following her resignation as SNP leader two years ago.

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No surprise, and no loss. She's barely done anything to justify picking up a wage as an MSP since standing down as FM.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GlesgaeHibby

No surprise, and no loss. She's barely done anything to justify picking up a wage as an MSP since standing down as FM.

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Maybe operation branch form will finally go for a prosecution?


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by GlesgaeHibby

No surprise, and no loss. She's barely done anything to justify picking up a wage as an MSP since standing down as FM.

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Huge loss to the parliament

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JimBHibees

Huge loss to the parliament

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In what sense? She's barely spoke in parliament in the last two years.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GlesgaeHibby

No surprise, and no loss. She's barely done anything to justify picking up a wage as an MSP since standing down as FM.

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Agreed …absolute wage thief …along with a few others from various party’s

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JimBHibees

Huge loss to the parliament

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What's her greatest political achievement achieved through the parliament?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

Maybe operation branch form will finally go for a prosecution?


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Aye the day before the polls open next year no doubt.

Not insinuating that all the delays are politically motivated at all

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jamie_1875

What's her greatest political achievement achieved through the parliament?

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Probably her election record and leadership of her party.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jamie_1875

What's her greatest political achievement achieved through the parliament?

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Keeping the SNP to the left of centre and mitigating against several unfair UK government policies.

Looking at the current Labour government, the SNP are the nearest thing we have to a socialist party, that's mainly down to Sturgeon's leadership.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg

Keeping the SNP to the left of centre and mitigating against several unfair UK government policies.

Looking at the current Labour government, the SNP are the nearest thing we have to a socialist party, that's mainly down to Sturgeon's leadership.

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Fair enough but I was meaning more something she did with the powers she had that didn't involve giving stuff or money away. Education was what she asked to be judged on, not sure she passed that one and it probably depends on which set of stats you use.

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/nicola-sturgeons-legacy-first-minister-34844455

Probably a fair summary above.

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Originally Posted by jamie_1875

Fair enough but I was meaning more something she did with the powers she had that didn't involve giving stuff or money away. Education was what she asked to be judged on, not sure she passed that one and it probably depends on which set of stats you use.

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/nicola-sturgeons-legacy-first-minister-34844455

Probably a fair summary above.

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I think my point was a valid one and maybe if she didn't have to divert so much money, then her record on education might have been better.

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Originally Posted by jamie_1875

What's her greatest political achievement achieved through the parliament?

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From a personal perspective, when the SNP came to power and she became the Cabinet Secretary for Health she led a mini revolution in the NHS in Scotland.

Scotland made its own path then and I wouldn't be the only one to suggest that led to the Scottish NHS outperforming it's neighbours since then. I was speaking with the head of the NHS in England at a UK medical conference about the merits of the different systems a few years after the divergence. After a fair discussion I asked him 'bottom line, where would you prefer to be if you were ill?' "Scotland" he said!

If only the NHS (UK wide, even the not as good England and Wales) was as good now as it was then.

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Originally Posted by jamie_1875

Fair enough but I was meaning more something she did with the powers she had that didn't involve giving stuff or money away. Education was what she asked to be judged on, not sure she passed that one and it probably depends on which set of stats you use.

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/p...ister-34844455

Probably a fair summary above.

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LOL

That Daily Record article is virtually unreadable due to the ads on the page. And when you do get to the article itself, it's a list of disjointed comments that look like they've been compiled by AI. Phrases like "failed miserably" have no place in a fact and context free piece like that. A complete waste of my time looking at it. If that's considered to be a "fair summary" then we're all doomed. Please don't post links to the Daily Record again.

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Originally Posted by grunt

LOL

That Daily Record article is virtually unreadable due to the ads on the page. And when you do get to the article itself, it's a list of disjointed comments that look like they've been compiled by AI. Phrases like "failed miserably" have no place in a fact and context free piece like that. A complete waste of my time looking at it. If that's considered to be a "fair summary" then we're all doomed. Please don't post links to the Daily Record again.

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Just don't read them! And it was an opinion piece and lots of people believe she did fail miserably.

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Originally Posted by jamie_1875

Just don't read them! And it was an opinion piece and lots of people believe she did fail miserably.

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I read it because you said it was a fair summary. It was not. It was a hack job by someone with a longstanding dislike of Scottish independence, Sturgeon and the SNP. He couldn't be fair about her if his life depended on it.

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Originally Posted by grunt

I read it because you said it was a fair summary. It was not. It was a hack job by someone with a longstanding dislike of Scottish independence, Sturgeon and the SNP. He couldn't be fair about her if his life depended on it.

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Opinions eh! I thought it was fair.

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Originally Posted by jamie_1875

Just don't read them! And it was an opinion piece and lots of people believe she did fail miserably.

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Not that many as she kept winning elections. [emoji6]


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jack

From a personal perspective, when the SNP came to power and she became the Cabinet Secretary for Health she led a mini revolution in the NHS in Scotland.

Scotland made its own path then and I wouldn't be the only one to suggest that led to the Scottish NHS outperforming it's neighbours since then. I was speaking with the head of the NHS in England at a UK medical conference about the merits of the different systems a few years after the divergence. After a fair discussion I asked him 'bottom line, where would you prefer to be if you were ill?' "Scotland" he said!

If only the NHS (UK wide, even the not as good England and Wales) was as good now as it was then.

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My wife is a teacher who specialises in kids who need additional support. Up here, all the relevant departments share the info and speak to each other.

In England, all the departments don’t, therefore making it much more difficult to identify examples of abuse etc.

It’s not perfect in Scotland but we have a joined up system which is far better at helping the individuals that need it more efficiently

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Originally Posted by Hibs4185

My wife is a teacher who specialises in kids who need additional support. Up here, all the relevant departments share the info and speak to each other.

In England, all the departments don’t, therefore making it much more difficult to identify examples of abuse etc.

It’s not perfect in Scotland but we have a joined up system which is far better at helping the individuals that need it more efficiently

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That reflects in the NHS too. In Scotland there's collaboration between different parts of the NHS and other agencies. It works well the vast majority of the time.

In England there's 'competition' between different parts of the NHS AND private healthcare providers. The NHS Trusts don't trust each other.

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Originally Posted by Hibs4185

My wife is a teacher who specialises in kids who need additional support. Up here, all the relevant departments share the info and speak to each other.

In England, all the departments don’t, therefore making it much more difficult to identify examples of abuse etc.

It’s not perfect in Scotland but we have a joined up system which is far better at helping the individuals that need it more efficiently

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Strangely, that’s not my experience in Berwick, there was a monthly meeting where departments and various organisations, ie police, social services, children’s services, mental health, housing, licensing, youth project, schools, child protection etc would discuss and deal with issues to ensure that anybody in need of intervention was highlighted and the correct service was allocated tasks and report back. The protocol was that all information was provided.

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Originally Posted by Berwickhibby

Strangely, that’s not my experience in Berwick, there was a monthly meeting where departments and various organisations, ie police, social services, children’s services, mental health, housing, licensing, youth project, schools, child protection etc would discuss and deal with issues to ensure that anybody in need of intervention was highlighted and the correct service was allocated tasks and report back. The protocol was that all information was provided.

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Yeah but we all know that Berwick is really part of Scotland

:wink:

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Originally Posted by Keith_M

Yeah but we all know that Berwick is really part of Scotland

:wink:

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Should be Capital of Berwickshire…. Changed hands 14 times

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Originally Posted by Berwickhibby

Should be Capital of Berwickshire…. Changed hands 14 times

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Berwick should never have made peace with Moscow then they would still have been too afraid to invade Ukraine.

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Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg

Berwick should never have made peace with Moscow then they would still have been too afraid to invade Ukraine.

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:greengrin:greengrin always a great tale to tell about the town

https://news.sky.com/story/bluesky-13332075

Must keep this going to help Labour.[emoji849]


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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

https://news.sky.com/story/bluesky-13332075

Must keep this going to help Labour.[emoji849]


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No idea how they think Curtice is still relevant. We went to a lecture of his about 10 years ago and it was dire, took us all our time not to walk out.

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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

https://news.sky.com/story/bluesky-13332075

Must keep this going to help Labour.[emoji849]


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"Sky News has learned that there are currently 10 senior officers working on the case"


I thought the investigation was complete and it was now with the CPS??

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Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

"Sky News has learned that there are currently 10 senior officers working on the case"


I thought the investigation was complete and it was now with the CPS??

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It’s no wonder that white collar crime goes unpunished so much. The SNP is tiny with only about 20 employees involved yet police Scotland can’t work out if any money is missing after two years and £2m+ spent investigating.


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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

It’s no wonder that white collar crime goes unpunished so much. The SNP is tiny with only about 20 employees involved yet police Scotland can’t work out if any money is missing after two years and £2m+ spent investigating.

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Was that the charge? I thought it was about money not being spent for the intended purpose? The auditors didn't flag up any missing money.

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Originally Posted by grunt

Was that the charge? I thought it was about money not being spent for the intended purpose? The auditors didn't flag up any missing money.

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Murrell was charged with embezzlement so it's moved on. It's taking a ridiculous amount of time, he was charged nearly a year ago and no sign of a court date.

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Originally Posted by jamie_1875

Murrell was charged with embezzlement so it's moved on.

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Ok thanks.

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Originally Posted by jamie_1875

It's taking a ridiculous amount of time, he was charged nearly a year ago and no sign of a court date.

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Isn't the delay due to CoPFS deciding whether there's a case to answer?

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Originally Posted by jamie_1875

Murrell was charged with embezzlement so it's moved on. It's taking a ridiculous amount of time, he was charged nearly a year ago and no sign of a court date.

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Perfectly timed post, he’s appeared in court today charged with embezzlement.

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Originally Posted by hibee

Perfectly timed post, he’s appeared in court today charged with embezzlement.

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And sturgeon officially cleared.


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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

And sturgeon officially cleared.


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Along with Colin Beattie, "no longer under investigation"

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Originally Posted by Andy Bee

Along with Colin Beattie, "no longer under investigation"

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Easily stretch it another year before a trial.


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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

Easily stretch it another year before a trial.


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Yup, this is just the start of it. It's gonna be a long year. No point checking the BBC TV guide for the foreseeable, wall to wall Murrell.

Swinney should move sharply clearing out Police Scotland before they come for him. Two SNP first ministers investigated and no convictions to show for it. Millions of pounds spent and police hours wasted.


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Originally Posted by hibee

Perfectly timed post, he’s appeared in court today charged with embezzlement.

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Thanks for posting. When do we find out how much he's alleged to have embezzled?

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Originally Posted by grunt

Thanks for posting. When do we find out how much he's alleged to have embezzled?

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How would I know?

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Originally Posted by grunt

Thanks for posting. When do we find out how much he's alleged to have embezzled?

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When is the Scottish election?


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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

Swinney should move sharply clearing out Police Scotland before they come for him. Two SNP first ministers investigated and no convictions to show for it. Millions of pounds spent and police hours wasted.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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With a name like Honest John they've no chance of snaring big John, he's beyond reproach :agree::greengrin

But what happened to the plot to get Sturgeon? Surely if this was a big set up to get to the SNP and damage Independence they would have charged her as well as that would have been headline grabbing stuff in the run up to 2026 election.

If Murrell is found guilty is it still a big plot?

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Originally Posted by hibee

How would I know?

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You're new to this social media thing, eh?

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Originally Posted by jamie_1875

But what happened to the plot to get Sturgeon? Surely if this was a big set up to get to the SNP and damage Independence they would have charged her as well as that would have been headline grabbing stuff in the run up to 2026 election.

If Murrell is found guilty is it still a big plot?

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You don't think the blue tents, the four year investigation, the constant coverage in the BBC and the Daily Record, the arrest and the thousands of comments on social media about her likely guilt have had sufficient impact?

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Originally Posted by grunt

You don't think the blue tents, the four year investigation, the constant coverage in the BBC and the Daily Record, the arrest and the thousands of comments on social media about her likely guilt have had sufficient impact?

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But if this was the big plot to get her and the SNP why hasn't she been charged? Surely that would be the end game in this plot?

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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

When is the Scottish election?


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Does that not all seem a bit tin hat now the first ministers husband has been charged by the PF. Or do you think the PF with to cabinet members as it's head, are part of the shenanigans. If he gets guilty will you say fair play he was up to no good, this correctly was a huge story and would be front page news for years in any country it happened?

The Spanish PMs wifes corruption has multiple articles on the BBC over the last year and I was born after Imelda Marcos was robbing money but I know about her

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Originally Posted by jamie_1875

But if this was the big plot to get her and the SNP why hasn't she been charged? Surely that would be the end game in this plot?

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If there was a plot the end game would be to damage or ideally get rid of the SNP, not one individual in it.

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Originally Posted by lapsedhibee

If there was a plot the end game would be to damage or ideally get rid of the SNP, not one individual in it.

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It's failed then, the SNP still ahead in the polls and support for Indy hasn't changed. The plotters were just rubbish at their job perhaps.

Maybe it wasn't a plot and Murrell was a bad boy, the simplest explanation is usually the correct one.

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Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

Does that not all seem a bit tin hat now the first ministers husband has been charged by the PF. Or do you think the PF with to cabinet members as it's head, are part of the shenanigans. If he gets guilty will you say fair play he was up to no good, this correctly was a huge story and would be front page news for years in any country it happened?

The Spanish PMs wifes corruption has multiple articles on the BBC over the last year and I was born after Imelda Marcos was robbing money but I know about her

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Apparently has the world record for largest ever theft from a government - estimates between $5 and $10billion dollars. Are you suggesting that Murrell's embezzlement is of similar scale?

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Originally Posted by jamie_1875

But if this was the big plot to get her and the SNP why hasn't she been charged? Surely that would be the end game in this plot?

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They didn’t need to and there was no evidence. They got her with the investigation. This was 100% successful.


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

Does that not all seem a bit tin hat now the first ministers husband has been charged by the PF. Or do you think the PF with to cabinet members as it's head, are part of the shenanigans. If he gets guilty will you say fair play he was up to no good, this correctly was a huge story and would be front page news for years in any country it happened?

The Spanish PMs wifes corruption has multiple articles on the BBC over the last year and I was born after Imelda Marcos was robbing money but I know about her

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The same PF found to have been guilty of malicious prosecution already?


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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

They didn’t need to and there was no evidence. They got her with the investigation. This was 100% successful.


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I don't think you can know three was no evidence, plenty of people are not charged as perhaps the evidence isn't strong enough to get a conviction so unless you have inside information you can't be sure there was no evidence at all.
But my point being if this was a plot the plotters are pretty rubbish as surely charging her and having a court case would cause maximum damage to the SNP, for some reason only known to the plotters they have decided not to do that.

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Originally Posted by grunt

Apparently has the world record for largest ever theft from a government - estimates between $5 and $10billion dollars. Are you suggesting that Murrell's embezzlement is of similar scale?

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The last sentence you just made up. The Spanish PMs wife was small scale corruption but I've seen it all over the UK press for a year now, because it's a huge story, or are they out to get the Spanish PM 😆. The South Korean PMs wife was meant to have been given a free designer handbag and it was worldwide news BBC, Time magazine, CNN etc.

The husband of our FM getting charged with embezzlement is massive news and would be the main headline in any country in the world. If people don't agree with that I don't think they are being impartial

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

The last sentence you just made up. The Spanish PMs wife was small scale corruption but I've seen it all over the UK press for a year now, because it's a huge story, or are they out to get the Spanish PM [emoji38]. The South Korean PMs wife was meant to have been given a free designer handbag and it was worldwide news BBC, Time magazine, CNN etc.

The husband of our FM getting charged with embezzlement is massive news and would be the main headline in any country in the world. If people don't agree with that I don't think they are being impartial

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Were those cases guilty? Not fussed about Murrel but the investigation of Sturgeon stinks of being politically motivated.


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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

Were those cases guilty? Not fussed about Murrel but the investigation of Sturgeon stinks of being politically motivated.


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The Spanish PMs wife's case hasn't reached court yet a year later.

That sounds a Trumpian. You can't just say you aren't bothered about Murrel he was the first ministers husband of course she would be investing too, one as being his wife so usually privy to some of his finances and two the head of the party he's accused of embezzling.