That wasn’t the general consensus. When Porteous left us our defence got considerably worse. We missed him badly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Paulie Walnuts
This would be a cracking signing for Hibs.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Printable View
That wasn’t the general consensus. When Porteous left us our defence got considerably worse. We missed him badly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Paulie Walnuts
This would be a cracking signing for Hibs.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Last two full seasons Porteous played we lost 42 and 34 goals.
The next season he played until Jan and we lost 59 goals and then 59 goals again the season afterwards.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
As good as Miller has been for us this last 6 months that’s all it’s really been. Similar can be said of Rocky. Porteous was as good as they two have been recently for multiple seasons at a younger age.Quote:
Originally Posted by chasitup
Goals conceded p90 while Porteous was on the pitch - 1.17Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
Goals conceded p90 since Porteous left - 1.40
Chuck in a goal up the other end every ten games or so.[emoji106]Quote:
Originally Posted by CapitalGreen
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Funnily enough, I had the impression that our goals against improved dramatically the day he left.
Crazy amount of disrespect shown towards Porteous by some posters on this thread. He'd be a really good signing for us.
Absolutely baffling eh. It’s like some folk go to ER with their eyes shut.Quote:
Originally Posted by HFC93
Either that or they’re a wee bit susceptible to the musings of the (bias) media.
Reading on here that he’s a downgrade on Bushiri FFS 😂
Can’t remember Ryan ever playing part of a back 3 in a 3-5-2 - might slot in much better than when he was in a pairing. Have to admit though, it’s a no from me I’m afraid. Too often played the occasion and not the game, particularly big games v Hearts and The Rangers, and there’s absolutely no doubt referees and media targeted him negatively. Whole hearted without doubt, good on the ball, but he’s never rid himself of the ill discipline which I think is innate in him and no amount of coaching will cure. Always wish him the very best but would rather we focus on other targets.
I agree he’d be a really good signing and would want to see him back.Quote:
Originally Posted by HFC93
However, I remember when he was here last time I was at the stage where I thought I just wanted him to leave already. There was far too much going on around him it felt like and a bit of a media circus every time we played rangers.
He was making mistakes by chasing after the ball and leaving huge gaps at the back, acting a bit too cocky and it just felt like, imo, he thought he was too good to be here. I think VAR being in play could actually be a good thing for him as he would know he can’t take the slightest risk as they’d be desperate to send him off
Will Fish replaced him in the centre of defence and was absolutely brilliant. No nothing fancy, no drama and just kept things simple. I think alot of fans liked that compared to Porto.
Rocky has now done unbelievable this season, maybe some are thinking we can get better centre halves without the added baggage. Jason Kerr for example? Not saying he’s better but he’s probably a more consistent and less flash centre back.
If Porto was to come back I really hope he’d listen to SDG and stick to basics, he’s shown he can do it for Scotland.
Not always in a 3-5-2 but he played in a back 3 numerous times under Ross, Maloney and Johnson.Quote:
Originally Posted by truehibernian
And for ScotlandQuote:
Originally Posted by CapitalGreen
If Rocky was leaving we could have both. Porto is an excellent player and playing in a back three should suit as good on the ball and can bring ball outQuote:
Originally Posted by CapitalGreen
In 2022/23, Hanlon and Porteous conceded just 1.11 goals per 90 when played as a pair.Quote:
Originally Posted by Unseen work
When Rocky played we conceded 2.12 goals per 90.
When Porteous left and Rocky was injured, Hanlon and Fish conceded 1.38 goals per 90.
Porteous wasn’t the issue - LJ and his decision to bring Rocky into a defensive unit which was working was.
I don't think it's disrespectful to not want a player back. Porteous leaving was good for him and good for us. I can't be bothered with the media, refs and opposition fans side show that came with Porteous. For me that ship has very much sailed.Quote:
Originally Posted by HFC93
If he came back I'd back him but I hope he's matured both on and off the park.
He really isn’t played regularly in the Championship last season which is old firm aside a higher standard than our leagueQuote:
Originally Posted by Northernhibee
Damn you with all your facts, I do laugh at the mental gymnastics folk go through trying to diss someone like Porteous and indeed McInness who in general perform much better over the piece than anything we normally do, but they are not good enough for us because they just dont like them. :faf:Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
Rocky has undoubtedly improved massively.Quote:
Originally Posted by CapitalGreen
But that doesn’t take away from Porteous’ mistakes or short comings.
https://www.hibs.net/showthread.php?358355-Ryan-PorteousQuote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
From the summer prior to him leaving
https://www.hibs.net/showthread.php?359862-Porteous&p=7161605#post7161605
From the November prior to him leaving
The general consensus was absolutely that he needed dropped. He was in a sustained period of awful form.
Every defender we have had has made mistakes. The purpose of defending is to concede as few goals as possible, our best seasons doing that in recent years have included Porteous in defence.Quote:
Originally Posted by Unseen work
The two links I’ve provided above suggest otherwise. He was absolutely brutal when he left and it was most definitely generally accepted that was the case.Quote:
Originally Posted by bingo70
Why do we think he’s matured? It’s only a year since he let his country down with a frankly ludicrous tackle in the first game of a major tournament and fans of his parent club describe him as the exact same immature player that left us. There doesn’t appear to be anything to suggest he’s matured at all.
Our best season also included Paul McGinn and Paul Hanlon, it doesn’t mean we should be bringing them back.Quote:
Originally Posted by CapitalGreen
If either player were still in their mid-late 20s I’d have no problem having either player in our team. Would you?Quote:
Originally Posted by Paulie Walnuts
I feel like you’re trying to argue against a point that I’m not making?Quote:
Originally Posted by CapitalGreen
I don’t know where you’ve got your stats from and not doubting them, but what’s the stats since Rocky/Iredale came into the squad this season?
And what was the stats from the Covid season when we finished 3rd?
Jack Iredale this season is 1.22 per 90Quote:
Originally Posted by Unseen work
Rocky this season is 1.19 per 90
Ryan Porteous over his whole time at Hibs was 1.17 per 90
Ryan Porteous during 20/21 specifically was 1.01 per 90
I'd have Porteous back in a second, quality defender, my issue would be where does he play/who does he replace in a very settled side, unless one of our first pick defenders is leaving. Rocky and Miller are showing significant improvement which hopefully continues.
Sent from my SM-A750FN using Tapatalk
It would depend what version of them we were getting. If it was a version that was getting bombed out of national team, parent club and loan club and they appeared to have the same major flaws they had when they left us (which I’d have dropped him for at the time) then I wouldn’t be in a hurry to take them either.Quote:
Originally Posted by CapitalGreen
Rocky is running down his contract and at present will leave for nothing in the summer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bostonhibby
Only £10 per annum to sign upQuote:
Originally Posted by Joe6-2
Helps the site
Got the inside gossip days ago
[emoji106] know that, just looking at the here and now. Given the choice I'd keep Rocky. A settled Porteous, could well be at least as good.Quote:
Originally Posted by CapitalGreen
Sent from my SM-A750FN using Tapatalk
How was it good for us? We got considerably worse?Quote:
Originally Posted by Since452
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
We were 6th in the league when he left and we finished 5th. We picked up 1.22ppg before he left that season and 1.56ppg after he left. We went on an undefeated run of 5 games conceding 2 goals immediately after he left. We got considerably better by every measure.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
Before he left we had won 4 in 14 league games, losing 9 of them. Not mention losing 3-0 to Hearts twice in a month.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
After he left won 4 of the next 5 games and only lost 5 games in remaining 16 fixtures.
Him leaving coincided with Rocky getting injured for the remainder of the season. If Porteous hadn’t left when Rocky got injured it would have been him and Hanlon who were an excellent partnership at the start of that season.Quote:
Originally Posted by Paulie Walnuts
Miller can't even get a game just now in front of O'Hora and was only tried in that position because he couldn't get a regular game in his own position in front of Cadden. Porteous is a different level.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bostonhibby
In their prime? Absolutely, 100%.Quote:
Originally Posted by Paulie Walnuts
Yet you could argue, and some have, that Miller has made a good and improved contribution to the recent run ?Quote:
Originally Posted by supermcginn
Either way, the team's improved and I'm still in the camp that very much would welcome Porto back.
Sent from my SM-A750FN using Tapatalk
Rocky and Hanlon played centre back in more of those games than Porteous did.Quote:
Originally Posted by ElginHibbie
I had a complete hissy fit about SDG bringing Triantis back so if he wants to bring Porteous back then I should maybe trust his judgement.
He missed the 3-0 league game fair enough, but apart from that he played basically every minute that season and we didn't get "considerably worse" after he left is the pointQuote:
Originally Posted by CapitalGreen
Until he moves to right centre back I could barely see a footballer in Miller. He was average at best, always out of position and I cringed every time he took one of those defensive dives that fooled nobody but left us exposed. I just didn’t want to see his name in the starting line up.Quote:
Originally Posted by CapitalGreen
Then he slots in to a back three like he was born to it. He rarely misses a header and is a class act. Back three gives one of the centre backs the freedom to take a mazy run forward and he takes that in his stride. Suddenly we do have a quality player on our hands and I’d hate to see him leave. I’m all for Ryan Porteous coming back, he is a good player and a life long Hibs supporter but he’s got his work cut out if it’s Miller he’s expected to replace.
Personally, I think we’re seeing the end of Rocky and he would leave a big gap to fill. Don’t want to see him go but in a back three RP looks like he slots in there. Like both Rocky and Miller, Porteous did tend to be pulled about in a four. I’m excited to see him in a three where he has the freedom to go for a run.
Not at centre back he didn’t, a number of the games up to his departure he was playing in midfield and our centre back pairing was Rocky Bushiri and Paul Hanlon.Quote:
Originally Posted by ElginHibbie
Over the opening 10 games of that season when we played a back 4 and Rocky missed a number of games injured, only Celtic conceded less goals than we did.
Our defensive record went to pot when LJ reintroduced Rocky at Celtic Park and improved again when Rocky got injured for the rest of the season.
Porteous is a funny one. I wasn’t disappointed to see him go as felt by time he left he thought he was far better than he was and was barking at team mates for mistakes when he was just as culpable.
However, seeing what David Gray has done with Miller and Rocky, I do wonder if SDG would have the same effect on Porteous. He must be someone he respects and I do feel there is a player in there with Porteous he just needs to reign in the stupidity.
That be the 6-1 game that Rocky didn't start but Porteous did and were 3-0 down before he came on?Quote:
Originally Posted by CapitalGreen
Wild any criticism of Porteous just leads to trying to deflect onto other players like he was some innocent bystander and his mind wasn't somewhere else as it got closer to January that season
Exactly where I am on this one - seems we have excellent coaching. I'll trust them to make the necessary improvements to his game if he returnsQuote:
Originally Posted by Trinity Hibee
Get what folk are saying about Gray improving players and that he could do that for Porto. But for that to happen there needs to be a willingness to learn and listen from the player.
By the sounds of it, Porto is still doing the same things and is just as rash going by the Watford forum. On the flip side, he has been, most of the time anyway, excellent when playing for Scotland, so maybe he can listen and improve.
Changing a defensive unit that had been working well for the most part because they struggled at Celtic Park was a tactical masterstroke by LJ. Thankfully, SDG is unlikely to do the same after Saturday.Quote:
Originally Posted by ElginHibbie
That's only true if Hibs have offered him a new contract.Quote:
Originally Posted by CapitalGreen
Is the case to bring him back all based on what he did in the past for Hibs? There is very little in his form down south that would make him someone we should go after.
If he was being a roaring success down South we couldn't afford him. Which kind of answers your question.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brightside
As it is we have a guy capable of getting international caps, who should be entering the best years of his career, who maybe needs a bit of a reset. Gettable for hibs if that's the case. And we have a manager who can help him get where he needs to be.
We won't have a line on too many players that can be as good as Ryan can be in the right environment.
What do you mean?Quote:
Originally Posted by HH81
Rocky will leave next week whether or not he's been offered a contract.
I think if we can get a centre half that was a regular starter in a comfortable championship team for 2 seasons previous, who broke into the national team , that’s a great signing at our level.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brightside
Porteous couldn't even get a game in a **** Preston North End side.
I've watched many a game with him playing since he went down South. He's not really progressed since he left Hibs.
It's a NO from me.
Agree with this. Plenty examples of folk not quite doing it down there but coming back up the road and doing well. It’s not as if he’s been out in the cold all year either, he’s started 30 odd games at a good level this season. We wouldn’t, usually, be able to attract players who had been playing that regularly in the Championship.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilson
I don’t think Porteous has ever got to the level that I thought he could when first coming through but I still think he could come back and be a very good player for us.
Tbf, Watford are an absolute basket case, he came in and done very well for the first 12 months, and usual the second his form dropped a bit he was made to be a scapegoat, some of the comments I had seen surrounding Joao Pedro when he left tells me all I need to know about Watford fans.
Paul Heckingbottom brought him in, hasn't played him and currently has a 25.49 win rate at PNE.
He could be extremely unhappy with life down south and it could be effecting his performances, we don't know the full ins and outs.
All we know is when Ryan is happy and playing football regularly he is a top player.
3rd place finish and his G/C record while playing in a settled defence is enough evidence to bring him back, our schedule, his international and SPFL experience and performances in a back 3/5 for Scotland will suit us nicely.
I have no idea where this rumour has come from but Porto in a settled defence in place of Rocky would be a great signing. Porto was in a poor hibs team compared to where we are now.
Considering Ryan is 26 and McGinn & Hanlon are 34/35 respectively and now reaching the twilight years of their careers this doesn't really make sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by Paulie Walnuts
IF both were the same age as Ryan they'd still be at hibs.
European group stage football could be huge in terms of who we can sign. Could be a game changer. Let's hope Celtic turn up in the Cup Final.
Porto seems to get himself into a comfort zone fairly easily and the slackness creeps back in. A motivated Porto that doesn't see a move back to Hibs as a step down I'd definitely have back though.
According to the DR, Sallinger release clause is £300k, though he's keen on the move going into his final year so we’re confident we can negotiate the fee down a bit.
Still think going for Paulsen makes more sense.
Rocky is 25 and Porto 26 . Not really much between them age wise . One seems well liked by his teammates , good character that we have had no ON/OFF field issues with .
The other one there has been situations ON/OFF field . I didn’t think his attitude was right towards the end and was glad when he moved on .
Honestly don’t think as a player he’s an improvement on Rocky , certainly not character or attitude wise anyhow . There’s a good spirit and togetherness in this squad and hopefully that remains.
Could be an example of us saying no to BKFC and doing our own thing. We don't have to develop Paulsen for them if we see a 2/3/4 year deal for Sallinger as a better option for the club.Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnM1875
Have a look at their league position and goals conceded and games lost, it's nothing to do with defending that they are poor, they cant score at the other end.Quote:
Originally Posted by Coco Bryce
They have lost less times that Coventry who are in the play offs, they have conceded 59 goals 1 more than Coventry
Aye, don't think there's any doubt that we’d do whats best for us now. But by all accounts Paulsen is very highly thought of and is coming off the back of a good season, fair enough in a weaker league than the Austrian Bundesliga.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hibernian Verse
Could also be that we can't guarantee him a starting position.
Whatever we decide on, I’ll trust Hibs decision on it.
SDG, Garvan Stewart and Malky will be thinking of Hibs best interest
Paulsen may be very highly rated, but Bournemouth will likely want him to be first choice, he might only be with us for one season.
Sallinger might be coming in to be the number 1 for years to come?
Maybe he’s back up and smith will continue as number 1.
If there is anything in it, I couldn’t see us spending hundreds of thousands of pounds on a goalie to come on as a number 2.Quote:
Originally Posted by Unseen work
We also have to look at how many loans we can have , can't remember how many it is?Quote:
Originally Posted by Unseen work
And what positions we can fill using the loan market best.
I think if we signed Paulsen Bournemouth would want to see him playing regularly as our No 1 . I don’t think on current form it would be the right thing to do in dropping Smith and signing another keeper makes more sense .Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnM1875
Aberdeen spending a bit again , must have spent quite a bit since Thelin became manager…
https://www.aberdeenlive.news/sport/...greed-10175954
While I would rather play whoever is the better option at any time, I would agree that if we were to bring a new keeper in I'd rather sign someone that could be here longer term and fight for the position with Smith instead of someone like Paulsen who is perhaps more of a "use it or lose it" type.Quote:
Originally Posted by Donegal Hibby
Glad we are looking at a tall keeper to be our number one next season, if he signs Smith will be back to back up, we wont be spending 300 grand on a back up goalie.
Yep Thelin has been supported very well spent big in January alsoQuote:
Originally Posted by Donegal Hibby
Spent 4 million since Thelin came in.Quote:
Originally Posted by Donegal Hibby
I don’t think there’s anything in it all, we went the whole January window with no leaks no rumours and Scott burns has the scoop 2 months early now, not buying it, trying to unsettle us going into the final few games of the seasonQuote:
Originally Posted by B.H.F.C
If we're signing anyone they should be better than what we already have in the squad.
Hope the recruitment team have thought of this strategyQuote:
Originally Posted by hibsforeurope
How much did they get for Miovski?Quote:
Originally Posted by Since452
Fingers crossed, plenty comments on here suggesting we bring in fillers.Quote:
Originally Posted by BoomtownHibees
Did they not make around that in player sales?Quote:
Originally Posted by Since452
They sold that striker who’s name escapes me for big money, sure there was someone else as well.
6.5mQuote:
Originally Posted by 04Sauzee
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimBHibees
Quite incredible when you think back to the 26 Nov when we played them we could have went something like 22 points behind them and despite what they spent too we are now 3 points ahead of them .Quote:
Originally Posted by Since452
I think this is a really unfair post to be honest. Firstly I'm not sure where the 1.56ppg after Porteous left has come from, as far as I can see it was 1.38ppg, an improvement from 1.23ppg before he left.Quote:
Originally Posted by Paulie Walnuts
But secondly the you can't ignore another significant change in the team that season which Nisbet returned from injury which was around a month before Porteous left. The improvement in ppg is very similar from before and after Nisbet returned from his bad injury.
When Nisbet was out the team injured (in league games only) we scored on average 1.16 gpg and conceded 1.37 gpg, a differential of -0.21 gpg. When he was in the team we scored 1.84 gpg, conceding 1.74 gpg, suggesting that we played a much more attacking style and the differential between goals scored and goals conceded was positive rather than negative meaning the likelyhood of winning games (on average) was higher.
If you look at goals conceded (in league games only) with and without Porteous that season it is very similar, 1.59 gpg without Porteous vs 1.62 gpg with Porteous, a difference of just over a single goal over the course of the season. I think there's a valid argument that Nisbet's return had a bigger impact on our season than Porteous leaving. There will be many other factors of course that influenced the team.
FWIW If Porteous returns he needs to cut out the rash tackles, keep a bit of a lower profile on the pitch and off it, concentrate fully and become a good leader rather than berating team mates, but he's got all the ability to be an excellent defender in this league if he can do that. If we are losing one or both of Rocky and Miller then he's a ready made replacement IMHO.
Issue with using these figures as examples of one player’s value to the team is that there’s no context to them. Quality of opposition, number of games, other changes (for example we changed goalkeeper when Iredale and Rocky came into the team, which is a really significant thing).Quote:
Originally Posted by CapitalGreen
They provide a starting point but they don’t really prove anything on their own, it’s just information but you need more than just one data point to do any sort of meaningful analysis.
They are joint bottom with St Johnstone since 22nd November. If he carries that form into the new season Thelin won't see October.Quote:
Originally Posted by Donegal Hibby
We were 23 points behind them, would have gone 26 behind if not for Rocky's equaliser.Quote:
Originally Posted by Donegal Hibby
Is it okay for me to like both Rocky and Porteous?
We'll need a selection of both better than what we have and squad players if we get group stage European football.Quote:
Originally Posted by hibsforeurope
Squad needs beefing up to support us through the fixture congestion that Europe will bring.
I remember the days when not every debate ended up in stats and counter stats. Simpler times.
We had 27 points from 22 games prior to Porteous leaving. We finished the season with 52 points, so 25 points from the remaining 16 games. That’s 1.56ppg.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sergio sledge
You’re right in that there would have been plenty other factors, but it’s numerous factors combined that lead to results. For the same reason the idea that Porteous being in the defence was the sole reason for our goals conceded whilst he was in the team as has been alluded to by other posters is also nonsense.
The post I responded to though simply said that we became considerably worse when he left. We didn’t, we got better, picking up considerably more points and moving higher up the table. We were a better side that season when Ryan Porteous wasn’t in it. That much is inarguable, what is arguable is how much of that was down to Porteous not being in it. IMO it was a fairly significant factor as his general play was dreadful around the time he left, hence why so many people wanted him dropped or even sold.
If you try and stat me, you’ll have crossed the line and I will stat you, so help me!Quote:
Originally Posted by The Modfather
Yup.Quote:
Originally Posted by Saint Hibee
Both have had very good times in a hibs shirt and both have not so good times.
I think it's safe to say that both on their A-game improve our squad massively and based on where we want to be as a club would help us reach the levels we want to be at.
The Scottish media has had it in for Porto since his well documented run ins with the Huns. Getting sent off in the Euros opening game and his off field incidents don’t do him or us any favours. Would rather have a reliable and focused Rocky 🤞
I feel like this is a play on a quote from Always Sunny or Peep Show, or suchlike, but can’t quite place it. Or maybe it’s not a quote from anything.Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnM1875
Haha! Spot on, the sectioning scene from Peep Show.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Modfather
Count me inQuote:
Originally Posted by Saint Hibee
Sent from my SM-A750FN using Tapatalk
Yeah you are right I had the Celtic result at the end of the season the wrong way round, just assumed it was a loss.. :greengrinQuote:
Originally Posted by Paulie Walnuts
I think this is a fairer post, you are right there's no single factor it can be put down to, I just think that our defence was much of a muchness with and without Porto that season, I don't think that our general defensive play massively improved when he left, I think more of it was down to us having gone from a negative goal differential without Nisbet in the team to a positive differential with him in the team meaning we were more likely to win games. (I've amended my stats in the original post to reflect the correction of the Celtic score).
...and zip on their tin-pot stadium.Quote:
Originally Posted by Since452
Sent from my SM-A528B using Tapatalk
If I had the choice between rocky and Porteous. I’d take Rocky.
If Rocky left, I’d happily have Porteous back.
If Rocky stays, I’d like Rocky and Porteous.
If Porteous doesn’t come back and we lose Rocky. I’ll be disappointed.
Simple
So why did he go there knowing he wouldn't get a game?Quote:
Originally Posted by blackpoolhibs
Maybe Hecky felt sorry for him.
Absolute daylight robbery that deal, he’s alright but was never worth that much.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hibernian Verse