It really is. Scottish football really sells itself short with acceptance of such surfaces…depressing stuff
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Women's game won't get anywhere near average crowds of League 1. Where is the evidence to support that?
I'm guessing you've looked the average crowds of both leagues currently to come to that conclusion?
The average attendance in Scottish League 1 last season was 1,400.
What was it in the SWPL?
It's a brutal watch and a reminder why I have no interest in woman's football. The quality is so poor.
Hibs CBs simply don’t have the pace against the top teams.
I thought the club might get the foreign players jobs to bolster their meagre Hibs salaries. I played rugby abroad and the club teed me up with a job and gave me somewhere to stay.
Hibs I presume provide Hibs Women with training facilities at East Mains.
What about income? They have some sponsors but ticket sales are negligable and might just about cover the stadium rental.
Hibs Women have a first team squad of 23 players and a manager.
Even if they pay them each a paltry £5k a year that's £120k for the squad and the manager.
The budget will be a fraction of that hence I thought players would work a day job, train 2 or 3 nights a week and play at the weekend.
They were advertising an assistant coach job for £25k recently and physio was slightly higher. I
So the head coach much be on more than 26k which is quite a crazy amount for the league and the results they have produced / not produced !
How many Hibs players are actually exclusively full time?
Will Hearts or Hibs be publishing the figures of the womens set ups in their accounts ? Would be interesting to see the costs.
The Hibs girls academy is though the foundation - I assume girls pay to play ?
Re your last point Yes. Highest subs, and have to self fund strips etc. unless that’s changed in the last year. No idea about the overall P&L. The women’s team operates under its own company, no longer part of the foundations. All the youth team are.
It certainly won’t be making a profit. None of the women’s team in the UK will be making a profit.
Probably enough for a starting 11.
To answer to an earlier question on this thread about amount of time spent training, Smally talked about it on the Behind the Goals podcast, they train as many days as the men's team, including days with double sessions etc. but do a couple evenings in that schedule to accomodate P/T players.
Hearts girls academy is free as far as I’m aware.
Not sure about Rangers / Celtic or Glasgow City?
Any idea what the Hibs girls academy pay ?
If the womens team operates under it’s own company does that mean the accounts etc will be able to be viewed ? I thought it was part of the main club?
It doesn't add up for me either.
Having viewed the balance sheet at June 30th 2021 (available on Companies House website) those figures suggest something akin to a pub team rather than a side costing in the region of 250k a season.
It's unsustainable in it's current form and I would hope the men's team budget isn't affected by this.
No I meant Hibs Women has gone from the previous humble offering you saw on the balance sheet to a full time first eleven model from this season. I don't know how it's financed other than James Anderson chucking a bundle of cash at the two Hibs v Hearts games, a bit of TV money, and some sponsorship, hospitality and advertising revenues.
Grass roots girls football is growing at an incredible rate. Having a proper path way in place for them that leads to the senior level is a no brainier. Making sure the Hibs ladies senior team is as good as it can be and ready for them is just sensible and let’s hibs attract the best young players they can.
Following on from last nights game it’s astounding that Kathryn Hill and Kirsty Howat aren’t in the Scotland squad. Hill especially is much better than the current choices in defence.
With the men not playing this weekend, it's a good opportunity to nip along to see the women play.
Scottish Cup against East Fife on Sunday, so should be a few goals. Can buy advance tickets on fanbase as well.
I think it would be beneficial to the women's game in general if they reverted to a summer league from the Covid switch, but that might be tricky to do. However, I think it would allow an opportunity to increase attendances, and the women's league is more kid-friendly so mid-week games could also benefit from the lighter, warmer nights and no school in the morning.
Of course but the important factor is how much finance.
Hibs mens team average paying attendance at home games is 17,000
Hibs womens team average paying attendance at home games is more like 170.
So 1% of the supporters isn't going to add up to much income so not financed the same way.
How often do the teams train a week?
Assume the costs are for pitches ?
I don’t think Hibs even pay their coaches in the girls academy? Maybe wrong here ?
The boys academy has been going for many years ? But I see the foundation have a boys academy too? Assume that’s a pre-academy ?
This is where I find it annoying Hearts use Oriam and Hibs should be using HTC but it’s so far away for many players it makes it hard to get to regularly.
Most teams train twice - younger teams for 2 x 1h and the older 2 x 1.5h. HTC gets used now and again but they’re basically nomads bouncing around the city.
It all sits under the community, including boys teams - the difference is the performance teams for girls sit in the community (and pay), whereas the boys performance teams are part of the club and don’t.
Only Hibs Women administrators know their teams paying attendances. I suspect the numbers are very poor so they are kept private.
We are only told about attendances when tickets are free.
The club with the current worst average attendances in Scotland are Albion Rovers with 307. That would be a good first target for Hibs Women to exceed. Paying customers is the elephant in the room for Scottish womens football clubs.
The players, teams and budgets are improving every year but the gap between the have and have nots is also growing fast which is well illustrated by Glasgow Women who have lost all 18 games and have a goal difference of -87. That is not a good look for the league.
It looks like Montrose will be Glasgow Womens replacement next season. I suspect a team from a town of 10,000 people will struggle with the step up.
I did find the Scottish FA strategy for Girls and Women’s football, Accelerate Our Game, which outlines a desire to improve visibility by ‘increasing average crowds at domestic league and cup fixtures by 10% annually.’ This kpi is all very well but if it is achieved by giving more free tickets away and gate receipts are still negligible it is meaningless.
You need to stop saying you “suspect” when you clearly have no idea. Montrose would pump Glasgow Women.
You know the 19s gave away 1000s of tickets recently for the Dortmond game. It’s a strategy that works and is used in many sports all over the world. Womens football needs to tap into the family market and make its money from the side product, not from tickets. Playing at meadowbank won’t help the ambition.
Girls Academy coaches are volunteers.
Some of the teams train at HTC but others are dotted about. The youngest age group are at the Jack Kane Centre, others are elsewhere. The girls have 2 teams at each age group, national and regional. The former is elite whilst the latter is more about participation.
I was chatting to Edward who heads up the Girls Academy a couple of weeks ago. He's a really good guy and so enthusiastic but they are up against it. As said above as it stands the girls teams are paying subs, paying for kits etc and don't really have a 'Hibs identity'. That makes it hard to be a really attractive proposition to the best young girls. There is definitely ambition and enthusiasm to take it in the right direction, what it needs is finance.......
I don't think it's meaningless, it's about building a fanbase and an identity for years to come. Women's football isn't going away.
My daughter is 5 and has a ST at ER. She's usually pretty bored and the Nintendo Switch and chips keep her entertained. I took her to the women's game at ER last season v Hearts and she seemed much more engaged but I wasn't sure if I imagined it. This season she has been to the Capital Cup game and the final v Rangers and she is definitely more focussed and interested in the women's games. I asked if she wanted to go to the football on Tuesday just past. She asked if it was 'boys or girls', when I answered boys she said 'na'. Had I said girls I think she would have went.
2 of the 3 games I took her to above were free to enter but the women's team have earned a fan. Next season I'll be taking her far more often. That's 2 paying customers through the door thanks to a free ticket scheme. I'm not saying my daughter is typical of all girls but I think it's so important for young girls to see people like them playing the game and not just watching 'the boys'. She's playing football after school now and will be signing for a team next season. One free ticket has gone a long way.
The key part for me in what you say isn't building the fan base but the fact that your daughter is playing as everything else will stem from that. As playing numbers increase then the standard will increase and that in itself will drive up crowds, drawing more interest and finance into the women's game in a virtuous circle.
It's difficult at times to leave aside the tribal antipathies of the men's game but I'll admit to being impressed by the standard of Rangers' play against us on Thursday evening.
I'd agree though with PHeffernan's point about Glasgow Women being out of their depth. Matches need to be competitive and it doesn't do the top league any favours to routinely see seven or eight goal victories. I remember us beating Motherwell 9-0 in the Women's Cup Final (Arnott, now with Rangers, got five) and it was a dreadful advert for the game.
I couldn’t agree more, the key really is getting more girls playing and just as importantly enjoying the game. And the more we have playing in Hibs colours the better, it can bring whole families in to supporting the club who we may previously have missed.
The odd 9-0 score , whilst not pretty, doesn’t bother me too much. You are going to get that in any nascent league regardless of whether it’s women or men playing. As standards improve, and they already are at a rate of knots, , that type of result will become as rare as a 6-0 thumping of the Dons. :greengrin
My pal's girl has a season ticket at ER. She plays as a CH for Hutchie and when it came to squad numbers she got 17, she asked for it because that's Joelle Murray's number. The women are the heroes to her.
The saying 'you have to see it to be it' is true.
The engagement from the women to their fans is brilliant.
Great post with a classic equality angle of girls seeing people like them playing professional football so they are now able to see football as being for girls.
Like you I attended the high attendance games against Hearts and the Cup Final but getting supporters like us along to league games at Meadowbank is the real issue.
Offering a women's season ticket with the men's ticket as an add-on would be a good step.
Remember the derby next Sunday afternoon is also a free ticket event, make sure the women have a good backing because Hearts will have good-sized crowd. Looks like it'll beat the last attendance
Ages ago I suggested adding £10 to the season ticket price with the season ticket entitling the holder to attend all home league games of Hibs men, woman, development and U18 boys teams. At the present season ticket level that would raise £113k a season and would drive up attendances and interest in the teams outwith the mens 1st team. Needless to say the moaners weren't happy at the suggestion.
That's interesting. My youngest son and a big bunch of the kids from his primary school used to get free tickets for games from a teacher who played women's football. We went to quite a few including Hibs v Glasgow City in the Scottish Cup final and a Scotland Women's game at ER. No question the chance to be there with loads of his pals and the generally more family-friendly vibe made it more enjoyable than most of the Hibs men's games I took him to.
I think (as we can see how it's taken off in England) the women's game has a lot of potential. I'd like to see them play alternate weekends at ER to the men. Far more to be said for taking the family along to a home Hibs women's game than, say, taking a young child to Ibrox for a men's game.
The top league is turning like the men’s set up..all about money.
Rangers / Celtic and Glasgow City title challengers.
Hearts and Hibs pay more hence 4th and 5th.
The rest are all pretty average and obviously Glasgow Women struggling.
Aberdeen should be doing better. Plus the SWPL
Only has 1 relegation shop so basically closed shop (yeah teams below aren’t ready for move up yet ).
The top teams don’t need help it’s the other clubs that do or you will just get the exact same issues as men’s game - teams moaning their isn’t any competition.
Even at younger ages teams are hoovering up young talent then moaning there is no competition ! You would think the coaches at clubs like Hearts would actually want to do some coaching. Hearts are linked to Oriam like I said before and it’s where the SFA offices are so it’s all a little cozy with several Hearts players in national youth teams - with some national coaches with close links to Hearts set up - basically conflict of interest.
All teams have played 18 league games.
In those 18 games the top 4 teams have conceded a total of 30 goals.
Hibs in 5th have conceded 31 so on average Hibs are conceding 4 times as many goals as the top 4 teams.
The bottom team have conceded 93 goals and scored 6.
The top 3 teams are full time professionals and the 4th and 5th best teams a mixture of full time and part time professionals. The teams 6th to 11th are getting by, taking a very high percentage of their points from cuffing the bottom team and taking points off each other.
James Anderson pays a big chunk of money to Hibs and Hearts to make the games between the two free to attend which is great BUT they compete for the contrived Capital Cup thereby conveniently pretending that fellow capital SWPL team Spartans don't exist.
I know it's just marketing but there is something nasty and distasteful about pretending Spartans don't exist. It has a bit of the Cinderalla's sisters about it.
Mon the Spartans and the Hibs
Aberdeens investment is minimal. They get some good youth as they have a big catchment. Once you get past heart and hibs the investment is next to nothing and survives on sponsorships and donations.
On the hearts side I don’t see any indication of them getting more players into the national setup. Their 16s team is probably the best in the country but that mainly due to keeping the girls into their age group rather than pushing up a year like most do. The 3 Glasgow teams have the best 18s teams. But the overall performance level at 18s has gone backwards in the last few years. For me that’s due to their being far too many teams which dilutes the talent. There should be no more than 6 18s Performance teams in Scotland. That still requires 120 top players at that age group. The idea that we can have 16 teams at that level is madness.
Down the age groups is getting heavy with teams too - Hutchie and Motherwell get pumped most weeks and Spartans and Boroughmuir are also creating performance teams for the upcoming season with rumours Musselburgh are too. Far too many - there’s just not enough talent for that and why teams are taking heavy beatings regularly.
Hibs have been keeping players at their age group (14s) and they’re strolling to the league, however I’m not convinced on the development that gives the girls.
A 6 team league ?? Does Scotland not need to improve the lower teams? Becoming elitist focusing on a few clubs will do nothing for long term development.
Hibs wouldn’t get into the top 6 in 18s or 16s just now. So where would they go?
Clubs like Hutchie Vale probably should be in the league but don’t think it’s right to write off some other clubs who seem to coach and develop players.
To many clubs seem to want to recruit players and have far too many players. Spartans are really bad for this at youth girls level - promise players game time and just ruin their development. Think parents are starting to see through this.
With the derby next week Smally being stretchered off is a massive pisser
There is a need to ignore the club structure at youth level in order to develop elite players. It doesn’t matter which club is the elite one at 18s as the best players will then move to a senior club that matches their ability. Clubs are just creating elite teams for the sake of it. (And to try and bring some cash in).
Plenty recent example of the pathway working at Spartans but again it’s probably less now as the 16s and 18s aren’t as good. Far too many players in all the teams just aren’t good enough for elite football. But greed and FOMO gets in the way of elite development.
Thing is though even the Rangers youth aren’t exactly elite - Scotland u17s couldn’t even beat Greece over 2 games during the week.
Putting Hibs u18s and u16s into regional just isn’t the way forward.
It’s embarrassing how Hibs u18 girls are bottom of the league. How can there be such a gap to the 1st team?!!
I’m not sure the Spartans pathway is good - all the 1st team players are usually players released from other clubs. They rarely develop a player who loves up and plays as it’s too big a jump.
Losing Rachael Boyle could be very costly to our season.
A great effort by East Fife to hold out until the 45th minute.
The good Rangers youth are already in the first team or released and playing for Spartans and others. Watson, McLeary, McLean are 3 of the best players in the country and are all under 18. They all moved up early as the 18s level is so poor. So yes all 18s should be regional/development until they are actually good enough to play at an elite level…..that is what is stunting their development right. They play against poor teams most weeks. Forget about a league. Get 6 regional teams playing each other. At any point that can go and sign for a senior team, but in theory they get 2 years of top class games.
3 or 4 18s at Spartans get moved up every year. Unfortunately they are deemed not good enough and move on to other teams lower down the leagues. But at least 6 of the current team are long term players from youth level. It’s the same issue at all the teams now. Not enough players coming though that are good enough for the top level.
I just looked on Twitter at the last Spartans line up - which are the youth players you talk about ? Lots of Spartans players are ex Hibs!
The 3 Rangers players you mention are decent but surely Rangers u18s should be better ? My point is these top clubs are improving 1st team but not doing much for youth development / coaching and improving players and that includes Hibs. Hearts supposedly beat Hibs u18 today - 17-0 ?! Surely not ?
Sounds like we are in agreement tbh. Why do Hibs even have a group in that league as they simply don’t have the players at the age group. There aren’t enough players in Scotland to have so many teams. But every team is desperate to have a “Performance” squad. It need to be stopped or you just end up with loads of bang average team and nobody improving.
I do agree - some teams like Hutchy Vale would get beat off regional teams.
I think ambitious clubs should be rewarded or some sort of criteria put in place to improve standards - this may already be the case ?
Like the men’s game - too many clubs - not enough solid clubs. Womens game just seems to be about increasing numbers but really should be about building solid foundations at clubs.
My understanding is that the Hibs under 18 NAP team has been decimated by a number of long term injuries in the last year, and players leaving.
They now have a lot of players playing up from where they should be age wise, it may stand the really talented ones in good stead long term, but it must be a bit soul destroying at the moment. For example the girl playing in goals for the under 18’s could be playing down two levels, she is a real prospect and an excellent keeper, hope she keeps her head up.
The under 16’s NAP are middle of the pack (possibly as they have players playing at under 18), yet the under 14’s are fantastic, unbeaten and clear at the top of the table.
Emma Watson got a full time professional contract aged 16 at Rangers. Left Keith Wrights SFA Academy school where she’d trained alongside the likes of McIntyre brothers and Harry Wright, Rudi Molotnikov iirc. Sad for the Edinburgh set ups that an Edinburgh kid already scooped up by the Uglies and won’t look back. She’s going to go far…possibly Kim Little far.
Out of interest, what’s your opinion of the performance schools?
My daughter is moving into S1 after the summer, is a fairly talented keeper, and we have applied for Broughton. I think they are (quite rightly) having to open it up to more girls, there are perhaps more opportunities.
Chances of getting in are slim of course, but our daughter is quite interested to see what the standard is with regards to trials etc.
They had a zoom call last week to give parents information, quite impressive presentation, I didn’t realise our old player Joe McBride heads up the Glasgow school.
She does distance learning most days and attends some days. Unless she’s changed that in the last few months. Shes no longer part of the performance school as that stops at 4th year. Shes got her final year of school and is bright so I’d be surprised if she’s chucked the final year. Scratch that - she is actually doing it all distance learning. They learn on site at Rangers.
Thanks for the info. Seems a lack of care from those in charge of the girls academy last few years means the teams are suffering just now.
I don’t see a pathway for many of the Hibs girls or keepers sadly unless they are exceptional - but if they are exceptional they will be scouted by other bigger clubs pretty quickly. Last few seasons it seems Hibs like others will keep bringing players in from England or elsewhere as they don’t have time like they used to wait for young players to improve and develop. Hibs missed the boat few years back to be where Glasgow City are, should be no excuses from the club as City aren’t even linked to a men’s set up.
It makes me laugh when people talk about the league tables in NAP. It’s a development league and it’s when clubs don’t give fair minutes to all players to win games at all costs, they are actually part of the problem stopping players get minutes to develop. The u14 league scores aren’t even meant to be posted online supposedly.
Ayr United 0-2 Glasgow Women
Boroughmuir Thistle 0-5 Celtic
Glasgow City 5-0 Aberdeen
Hibernian 4-0 East Fife
Kilmarnock 1-0 St Johnstone
Motherwell 4-0 Montrose
Partick Thistle 1-3 Heart of Midlothian (AET)
Rossvale 0-13 Rangers
Glasgow Women v Motherwell
Rangers v Hibernian.. of course
Hearts v Celtic
Kilmarnock v Glasgow City
Amazing how they keep the big three apart…..
A bump for the Hibs Women game this Sunday 13.10 ko at Tynie against Hearts.
Tickets are free again. Think a new domestic record might be set.
https://www.hibernianfc.co.uk/matche...ibernian-22-23
FT celtic 3 rangers 0, didn't expect that
Amy Canavan said she thought Rangers were getting a bit panicky.
***** from the BBC though, hardly any mention of the Edinburgh derby at Tynie, despite there going to be a bigger crowd than in Airdrie.
But their coverage only started improving when the Old Firm started showing an interest so what's new